Deep in the tournament and your tournament life is at stake
 

I was faced with a serious decision tonight and I knew somewhere there is an article on this.

Player X is a LAG. Raises with A7s+, KQ, KJ, any pair 66+. Player X has no clue about pot odds, dominated hands, or how to bet. He is slightly tricky. He pushes on flops he hits no matter the kicker or the made hand, TP, set, 2 pair. If a player reraises him preflop he assumes a small pair and pushes all in on AJ+. If he has a pair he assumes the reraiser has AK and pushes anyways. So usually Player X is a coin flip at best vs other players.

SITUATION: Both you and player X are deep in a MTT and both of you are the chip leaders of the tournament. If you play it safe you can get to the final table.

Blinds 800/400
(25k chips) Player X raies 3x the blinds from MP1.
(25k chips) Me CO position

I have Ad Ks. Since I know that Player X will just push if I reraise I thought I would play it conservative and just flat call with position. I didnt want a confrontation with the other chip leader and wanted to keep the pot small. Player X has it in for me because I beat him in several pots earlier. He is dying get all my chips.

Flop comes Kd 7s 2d.

Player X takes 2 seconds and pushes all in for 25k. Pot is 5200 + his push of 22,600. If you call and lose your out. If you call and win your the king. If you fold you still have a lot of chips and can make the final table pretty easy.

I thought for a while on this one. And I know I read an article on this very situation somewhere. I will tell you my action and results later. What's your all thoughts.

Re: Deep in the tournament and your tournament life is at stake
 

Well the guys such a donk, the idea of just folding and waiting for a better spot sounds great, but what if you dont get that better spot? you just lost out on an opportunity on getting a monster chip lead. IMO, tourneys arent about survival, theyre about chip accumulation.

i know most people are going to say fold becasue youve only invested 3xbb and you can sneak into the money easily.the only thing thats gonna kill you is a set of 7s/AA. If hes on the flush draw, you have the Ad, so even if he hits on the turn you still have a redraw to a higher flush.

im not really sure what id do, ill let a more experienced mtt player answer that for you.

Re: Deep in the tournament and your tournament life is at stake
 

If you're not calling this flop with AK why did you even call with AK in the first place?

I'm calling this because I think I'm ahead here. That's all.

Re: Deep in the tournament and your tournament life is at stake
 

If he is REALLY pushing Kx, any pair on the flop, I'd call this 100% of the time with a STRONG read. I doubt that he is really doing this though so most of the time I'm folding because many players with a big stack act fishier against stacks that are nothing, but play decent against stacks that can bust them.

The only times I'd consider folding (with a read)would be if I'm within three people of the final table and have an overwhelming chip lead against the others.

Re: Deep in the tournament and your tournament life is at stake
 

I would ask myself; Why would this player push all-in with any hand better than mine? Wouldn't they want to bleed me for some of my chips?

I figure they might have a medium pair, flush-draw or maybe they just naturally get a high from putting all their chips at risk trying to bully the table, even with nothing.

I call. The upside is too great. A win here will likely ensure you one of the top three spots where most of the money is.

Re: Deep in the tournament and your tournament life is at stake
 

fold if youre confident that you can make it to the final table without this pot.

Re: Deep in the tournament and your tournament life is at stake
 

He doesn't push with a set. Maybe two pair, but I've got outs. i think he knows that I don't want to tangle with the big stack so he is pushing his one pair/draw. I call.

WHAT HAPPENED!
 

I thought about the range of hands that beat me here and the range of hands he would raise from MP1. Then I considered the hands he played earlier and how he plays...EXAMPLE Pushing vs a reraise PF with AT vs AK. He played this hand like all his other hands... He sees top pair and pushes.

I ended up calling based on these things.

The %(@#%(*% shows me AA and I lose my stack.

Losing to this guy really really urked me. He kept knocking out players by pushing dominated hands that kept sucking out over and over. Last week this player did the same thing and took 1st place. Last week he knocked me out by one of his idiotic all in calls only because "he didnt like me". Called 2/3 of his stack with 75s vs my JJ all in PF. This week he happens to have AA and I run into it with AK and TP (about 25% to flop a pair vs AA, my luck wish I missed).

I hate losing to idiots like this guy that can't even spell "poker". ** Sorry for the rant I needed to get it out. ** I left with a wave and a smile to the other players hearing him do a victory dance and chant "you owed me, you owed me"

Thanks for the responses. I kept rolling this hand over and over in my head and the only way I could get away from it vs this LAG player is if I had ESP.

Re: Deep in the tournament and your tournament life is at stake
 

Because he is an idiot. He saw 2 diamonds and thought "he might have a draw I push" He doesnt think beyond his own hand.

Re: Deep in the tournament and your tournament life is at stake
 

no way jose I call this deep in a mtt.

that was a bad decision on your part. Even if he has like king queen.. he can still suck out on you and bust you.

2 things to remember deep an a mtt.

1.) If you tango with the chip leader, you better have the nuts or something close to, because he can bust you.

2.) If your one of the top chip leaders, it is really easy to bully/steal from smaller stacks than to play against the big stack. Even if you have a tempting hand PF and he shows strength, you need to think about folding it to avoid tough post flop decisions for all your chips.

Re: Deep in the tournament and your tournament life is at stake
 

[ QUOTE ]
no way jose I call this deep in a mtt.

that was a bad decision on your part. Even if he has like king queen.. he can still suck out on you and bust you.

2 things to remember deep an a mtt.

1.) If you tango with the chip leader, you better have the nuts or something close to, because he can bust you.

2.) If your one of the top chip leaders, it is really easy to bully/steal from smaller stacks than to play against the big stack. Even if you have a tempting hand PF and he shows strength, you need to think about folding it to avoid tough post flop decisions for all your chips.

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No... just, no. First of all, if you know he has King Queen, there is absolutely no reason not to call. You can't be afraid of the suckout when you're the favorite. Second, your first point is playing way too weak. You can't just let the chip leader run over you. You're in the tourney to finish first, not to coast into the money. When you have a chance like this to double up and crush the big stack, you take it given the reads. I call this every time.

Re: Deep in the tournament and your tournament life is at stake
 

Personally, from what you've described of this guy, I would have called in this situation, feeling at least 85% sure that I had the best of it there. But if it were me, I would have either been all in or folded preflop. From what you've said about his preflop all in habits, I was at worst a coin flip, and quite possibly dominating. I would have lost all my chips on that hand too. But that's how it goes.

Bad luck. But even donks get Aces sometimes.

Re: Deep in the tournament and your tournament life is at stake
 

With player X going all in right after the flop, there's not enuf info to think AK is the best hand. In fact, I have to think the player X has the top pair KK beat. He may went all in because he saw a flush potential. I'd probably give him a set in this situation, AK at worst.

Re: WHAT HAPPENED!
 

i will play devil's advocate. don't take offense...

maybe if he's knocking people out everywhere and finishing first now and then he's not the donk that you think he is.

he might actually be a good LAGgy player. it's frustrating to play against, and once you start down that road your perception of him can get skewed.

maybe he's getting in with dominated hands, but he might also be winning alot of pots with those same hands when he doesn't have to show. classic super system play.... steal small pots and the big pots are a freeroll no matter what you have.

edit: you have to call. you have to call if he's a solid player, much less a LAG.

Re: Deep in the tournament and your tournament life is at stake
 

I would call. You've got TPTK against a LAG who could be playing anything. He could be on a flush draw, or wosrt case scenario, have hit trips (probably 7's), but I'd slam him and see. If you don't, you can pretty much kiss off any chance of pushing him around later in the tourney, unless you hold the nuts. I'll be interested in seeing the other repsonses, but I go all-in here and prepare to bully the remaining players with my huge stack.

Re: Deep in the tournament and your tournament life is at stake
 

I would have lost too, but still think the odds are that it's right correct move. That's why poker's so cool, so many ways to play it.

Re: Deep in the tournament and your tournament life is at stake
 

push preflop
call
don't whine about bad beats
don't post question that have nothing to do with poker theory in poker theory

Re: WHAT HAPPENED!
 

No my perception of this player is dead on. He has no clue about odds when to fold when a ROCK reraises him. What cards he plays is fine, thats why I call him a LAG. Its his decisions when others raise him that makes him a bad player.

EXAMPLES:
He pushes hands like A9s, AT, AJ vs a TAG behind him who just reraised him when the odds are not there to play the hand.

He calls large all ins with suited connectors.

He calls all ins with dominated hands and its kinda OBVIOUS the other player has him beat preflop.

He calls for gut draws.

He calls for flush draws even if its not right to call.

Basically he has no concept of pot odds.

The 2 tournaments I saw him play he just kept sucking out over and over as a severe underdog. Trust me he is terrible.

His starting hands are not bad, his aggressiveness is good but he pushes too many dominated hands. He flops top pair he pushes, flops a set pushes, has an overpair pushes. I mean rediculous bet sized. His only move is basically push most of the time. He pushes 5000 chips into a pot of 500.

Mind you I like him on my right because I can get chips off of him but at the same time at any moment he can knock you out of the tournament with a suckout.

Re: Deep in the tournament and your tournament life is at stake
 

You dont get it do you. If I reraise he just pushes hands like AA-77, AK-A9s. Thats all he does. He never just calls preflop and I don't know what he has. I would rather call and see a flop especially in position. He usually checks when he misses, simple. He pushes when he has a pair.

Re: Deep in the tournament and your tournament life is at stake
 

Well I did a little research of what hands I thought he had and to me it came out 1/3 I was behind, 1/3 I was ahead, 1/3 I was tie. It was a tough decision with my chip stack and who was at the table. I also knew that he knew I was tight. But at the same time I figured he thought I would reraise him with AK since I reraised him earlier with AQ. Overall I added it up and thought "I'm either going to be the super chips leader or DIE!" I felt I was a head 66% of the time considering everything.

And why the hell risk your tournament life on AK when he will call with ANY pair and your a dog.

I can risk 15% of my stack to win the hand. I have position vs a guy I KNOW will pay me off it I hit and check if he misses so I would take the pot anyways.

Risk everything on a coin flip. Why the hell is everyone PUSH PF PUSH PF. Thats dumb vs this type of player that WILL call with any pair. Why risk the whole tournament on a coin flip when you are the chip leader. Thats a lesson I learned. Pick on the small stacks and try to avoid the big ones. Now if I had an M of 10 or less then I would push. But not when the 4 stacks to my left are Ms of 3 or less and I can bully them around.

I go far in these tournaments by winning a lot of pots not by PUSH PUSH PUSH risking everyother hand trying not to get unlucky.

Re: Deep in the tournament and your tournament life is at stake
 

guys HIS TOURNAMENT LIFE WAS ON THE LINE. you obviously fold unless you ahve the STONE COLD NUTS. wait until you have at least a 96/4 edge against his range before you put your chips in... and even that IS CLOSE.

Re: Deep in the tournament and your tournament life is at stake
 

[ QUOTE ]

Risk everything on a coin flip. Why the hell is everyone PUSH PF PUSH PF. Thats dumb vs this type of player that WILL call with any pair.



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[ QUOTE ]

EXAMPLES:
He pushes hands like A9s, AT, AJ vs a TAG behind him who just reraised him when the odds are not there to play the hand.

He calls large all ins with suited connectors.

He calls all ins with dominated hands and its kinda OBVIOUS the other player has him beat preflop.

He calls for gut draws.

He calls for flush draws even if its not right to call.

Basically he has no concept of pot odds.


[/ QUOTE ]



Didn't you also say he'd call with A9+? That's why. Almost exclusively (aka, barring AA or KK), you're either a slight dog or a huge favorite.

Re: Deep in the tournament and your tournament life is at stake
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why the hell is everyone PUSH PF PUSH PF.

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Because you were apparently thinking about making a horrible, horrible mistake postflop. Also, inclusion of the postflop play made your low-quality post longer.

Re: Deep in the tournament and your tournament life is at stake
 

Look smart ass if I wanted comments like this I would go to the peanut gallery. I wanted opinions as to why of why not. There is no simple yes or no answer.

Re: Deep in the tournament and your tournament life is at stake
 

Yea but there is also the chance he has a hand. Really think about it.

If you have position, can make reads on your opponent, and can out play him why the hell are you going to let luck dictate your actions. The pot was small compared to our stacks. No reason to push. I have so many more opportunities to beat this guy if I miss and to take chips from other weak players. Why go out in a blaze of glory and him get lucky. Out play him, read him, use your stack as a weapon later.

Just saying "push because most of his hands are worse than yours" just means your making a mathematical play.

Sorry I'd rather use more skills that just one to beat my opponent. I'll take playing lots of pots and winning most then playing fewer pots for all my chips. Because eventually someone lucky will suckout when you give them all 5 cards to see like this player has.

Re: Deep in the tournament and your tournament life is at stake
 

[ QUOTE ]

Just saying "push because most of his hands are worse than yours" just means your making a mathematical play.

Sorry I'd rather use more skills that just one to beat my opponent. I'll take playing lots of pots and winning most then playing fewer pots for all my chips. Because eventually someone lucky will suckout when you give them all 5 cards to see like this player has.

[/ QUOTE ]

I get what you're saying. It seems though, that you're implying that you'd rather not get your money in with the best of it (most likely), which is contradictory to good poker strategy. However, since you're in a tournament, obviously it's more complicated than just making +EV plays. And since the blinds are low enough to leave room for postflop play, a call as an attempt to outplay him (or at least see some cards before you commit your money, seeing as how he's gonna give it all to you if he plays anyway) is legitemate. Then again, as you've said, there isn't much to his postflop play. It seems to be either check/fold, or go all in.

That said, the flop is about the best flop you could hope for. If you consider folding to his push at that point, you probably should have folded the AK preflop. Honestly, if you aren't gonna call this guy when you flop tptk on an AK, what are you gonna call him with?

Along the lines of "tournament strategy," if you don't wanna tango with a guy who can bust you, you have to actively make that decision, in which case you need to fold the AK preflop. I personally don't play that way, but I'm sure it benefits people if they conciously only play hands with people who can't bust them (barring AA, KK, and maybe QQ). I really don't know if that's a better approach than just playing solid with whoever is in the pot with you though.

For a 0% chance of busting on this hand, fold your AK preflop.
For a better chance at placing higher in the tournament, push your AK preflop.
Or, if his postflop play really is that predictable, and you want to play cautiously, seeing a flop is an okay idea.
The time when it's bad to see a flop is when you've got AK and he's got AQ, AJ, or whatever, and you hit the flop but he misses, or if you both miss. One of those will be true most of the time. Then he doesn't give you all of his money.
Or when you've got AK and he's got, say 99. If the flop comes AK5, or AQ5, he's probably not going to give you the rest of his money. I suppose this is countered by the fact that if you miss your A or K, then you don't give him your money, but that effectively turns the call into a much smaller coin flip, with the added disadvantage that you only get three cards to win with, whereas all in you'd get five. That's no longer a coin flip.

Definitely a debatable situation. I'll have to give it some further thought.