I am probably one of the worst 10/20 players this week
 

6-handed. I have logged a lot of hands with Villain, but no strong read. This means he's just another one of those multitabling straightforward TAG-type players. Stats around 27/15/4. He has 3250, I cover.

First two fold, I raise it to 80 with 99, folded to Villain in the SB who pops it to 240. I make it 750 straight and he calls. This 3-raise was pretty much a bluff. If he calls, I'm done unless I hit a set.

Flop KsQx9s. Obviously, I don't have a spade, but I figured I might as well make it clear. I hit my set, but if I get an action at all I'm probably behind. Horrible flop.

He checks. Should I just bet here and fold to a c/r? I was considering doing that, but I decided to check through and hit quads.

Turn 4s. I doubt the 3-flush matters since AsKs isn't possible. The only way I think it could be important is if he holds AsAx.

He bets 1200--half of his stack. Do I just jam the rest in here? I'm either drawing to one out or he has 11. Maybe I should just fold? I was strongly considering that too, but I'm playing really poorly as of late, and I called. Probably the worst move of the three.

River Ts. Now I lose to every single hand that I can imagine him having, except for AxAx. He bets the rest of his stack--1300 into a pot of 3900--and I fold getting 4:1 with a set in a 3-raised pot. This hand is a total trainwreck.

Re: I am probably one of the worst 10/20 players this week
 

total trainwreck...i could kinda see not getting it in on the flop but it's definitely going in on the turn, at the same time why can't he have AsQs here? Why do you think his 3betting range out of the blinds is so tight? ironically my 3betting range out of the blind is wider (i think) ?????

Re: I am probably one of the worst 10/20 players this week
 

I don't worry about getting undersetted very often and in a 3-bet (Or is it 4-bet) pot I would never worry about. AA and AK are more likely than KK/QQ IMO.

Re: I am probably one of the worst 10/20 players this week
 

why do you think this?

Re: I am probably one of the worst 10/20 players this week
 

I don't think his reraising standards are particularly tight, but I do believe his standards for calling a third raise are small and I really don't see AQs out of position for 500 more with only 3250 behind. The plan was to take it down preflop.

Re: I am probably one of the worst 10/20 players this week
 

He won't call all in on flop w/ AA?

Re: I am probably one of the worst 10/20 players this week
 

[ QUOTE ]
He won't call all in on flop w/ AA?

[/ QUOTE ]


why should he? he basically beats a complete bluff

Re: I am probably one of the worst 10/20 players this week
 

If I get all-in on the flop, I'd guess that I'm behind at least 80% of the time.

Re: I am probably one of the worst 10/20 players this week
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He won't call all in on flop w/ AA?

[/ QUOTE ]


why should he? he basically beats a complete bluff

[/ QUOTE ]

so if the flop is KQ8 are u shoving to bluff out AA? cmon.

Re: I am probably one of the worst 10/20 players this week
 

not sure why you'd choose to bluff preflop w/a hand like 99 which is definitely +EV to play against most reraisers in this spot when you have 150bb+ stack and position (and presumably enough info about villain's range to think a 4bet is profitable). just call next time and 4bet him with j8s when his reraising range gets too broad given his folding freq.

post-flop, whatever. go broke or just bet and fold the flop. flop chk sucks. turn is raise or fold. you know this.

Re: I am probably one of the worst 10/20 players this week
 

haha I never get to say this but:

misplayed on every street!

Re: I am probably one of the worst 10/20 players this week
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He won't call all in on flop w/ AA?

[/ QUOTE ]


why should he? he basically beats a complete bluff

[/ QUOTE ]

so if the flop is KQ8 are u shoving to bluff out AA? cmon.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, because while AA is a part of his range so is KK/QQ and this bluff would probably end up being -EV.

Re: I am probably one of the worst 10/20 players this week
 

Oh my did that preflop 4-bet royally [censored] up this hand. How does villain view you? This is VERY important as in regards to what he would ever cold-call that 750 with. For a LOT (most of them) of players (this against all but the most loose/aggro of players, e.g B-Buddy types), this would be AA or KK ONLY.

Re: I am probably one of the worst 10/20 players this week
 

Sklansky would probably say that you should not be bluffing with a hand that has so much calling value. Save your 4-bets for junk/suited-connectors and premium hands.

I can understand the flop check but you must get in in on the turn.

Re: I am probably one of the worst 10/20 players this week
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sklansky would probably say that you should not be bluffing with a hand that has so much calling value. Save your 4-bets for junk/suited-connectors and premium hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I was gonna say.

Re: I am probably one of the worst 10/20 players this week
 

Preflop is kind of weird since it's a steal situation. My raise means any pair, any suited connector, any suited Broadway, etc. His reraise means a better hand than 99 most of the time, but it doesn't mean strictly QQ+, so I don't feel that calling just to catch a set would not be profitable. I could always call and try to outplay him, but that will often cost me my stack (especially how I'm running lately). I decided to turn 99 into 22 (which is essentially the same against a big pair) and pop it back. I expect him to fold JJ/TT here; possibly even QQ. I think I'm generally perceived as tight and straightforward preflop. The plan, again, was to avoid putting any more money in unless I hit a set, because to call my 3-raise, he will almost always have KK/AA/AKs--maybe QQ.

Although there's a good chance I'm ahead on the flop (AA, AKs non-spades), I can't bet because I won't get action from a hand I beat. Look at it from his perspective: he reraises AA, gets 3-raised, and calls to c/r all-in on the flop. I probably have KK or QQ and maybe AK. Flop KQx, now he beats only AK, and why would I bet AK that loses to every hand?

I agree that the turn is awful though. I realize that most posters will say to jam it and not to worry about a higher set, but I just hate drawing dead, and if I'm not dead, he has a quarter of the deck to win. Maybe someone will come in and math this?

It's funny though; a day or two before, I was putting myself in trouble by reraising 99-JJ and realized they're probably the worst hands to mess around with preflop, so I decided not to do that again. Obviously I didn't learn.

Re: I am probably one of the worst 10/20 players this week
 

So why would u push in on turn then? Arent u 80% behind on turn as well?

Re: I am probably one of the worst 10/20 players this week
 

Raise flopp if he have you oversetted big deal rebuy and go after him again.

Re: I am probably one of the worst 10/20 players this week
 

[ QUOTE ]
I agree that the turn is awful though. I realize that most posters will say to jam it and not to worry about a higher set, but I just hate drawing dead, and if I'm not dead, he has a quarter of the deck to win. Maybe someone will come in and math this?

[/ QUOTE ]

If he's got AA-QQ, AKs PF, I am 100% sure he doesn't have a quarter of the deck as outs when behind on the turn.

Re: I am probably one of the worst 10/20 players this week
 

wtf are you doing preflop.

call and try to hit top set and go from there.

flop is terrible

turn is terrible

bet out the flop and fold to a raise.

youve completely screwed up an easy hand to play.

Re: I am probably one of the worst 10/20 players this week
 

I think people are vastly overestimating the times he has QQ here (unless edge is real crazyass lag getting out of line regularly with 4-bets preflop), and I would be simply amazed if he EVER had AK here at all. "Let's call 750 straight and checkfold on 70% of the flops and probably get stacked off most times when we do hit only to find out we were owned anyway)

Re: I am probably one of the worst 10/20 players this week
 

Hi edge,
[ QUOTE ]
Preflop is kind of weird since it's a steal situation. My raise means any pair, any suited connector, any suited Broadway, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't seem to realize how bad your pre-flop line is, especially against the tight player you describe. Also, almost all of the hands contained in the range that you feel you are representing with a reraise are the worst candidates for pre-flop 4-bets.

Re: I am probably one of the worst 10/20 players this week
 

Hi MDMA,
[ QUOTE ]
I think people are vastly overestimating the times he has QQ here (unless edge is real crazyass lag getting out of line regularly with 4-bets preflop), and I would be simply amazed if he EVER had AK here at all. "Let's call 750 straight and checkfold on 70% of the flops and probably get stacked off most times when we do hit only to find out we were owned anyway)

[/ QUOTE ]

How about if he's played with OP some, and has had the opportunity to witness a pre-flop 4-bet from him with a hand as mind-numbingly bad (in that situation) as 99 or KQs?

Re: I am probably one of the worst 10/20 players this week
 

Hi Cero_z,

That is pretty much what my

[ QUOTE ]
Oh my did that preflop 4-bet royally [censored] up this hand. How does villain view you? This is VERY important as in regards to what he would ever cold-call that 750 with. For a LOT (most of them) of players (this against all but the most loose/aggro of players, e.g B-Buddy types), this would be AA or KK ONLY

[/ QUOTE ]

post said earlier in the thread, as well as my "(unless edge is real crazyass lag getting out of line regularly with 4-bets preflop)"-part in my last message said, although a bit overdramatized. If this scenario, or rather the one you presented, had been the case, I think OP should/would have presented us with that history, rather than just writing

[ QUOTE ]
I have logged a lot of hands with Villain, but no strong read. This means he's just another one of those multitabling straightforward TAG-type players"

[/ QUOTE ]

I think we are agreeing on this really, only you didn't notice my earlier post or something like that [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Anyway, nice to see your still posting, have and always will hold your posts in high regard.

Re: I am probably one of the worst 10/20 players this week
 

Hi MDMA,

From your tone, it seems like you think I disagree with your advice. My response to your post was intended to show edge how big a mistake it'd be to assume he was beaten here.

If he knows that edge takes this limit mentality of expressing the value of your hand in on a linear scale with each bet in a steal situation (1st bet=anything, 3-bet="maybe you're stealing", 4-bet="no, I really have some legit hand" 5-bet="I can beat a lot of legit hands", 6-bet (lol)= "I have a top two or three hand"), then he's going to be calling a 4-bet with a few more hands than would be prudent against a more competent NL approach.

But even if he's just a standard player, then he's normally at 2 levels of tightness: a)call that 4-bet with AA/KK. In this spot, we're a 2:1 favorite to have the best hand, and can probably win good money (if not his whole stack) when our set is good.
b)call w/ a wider range, which if it includes QQ, almost certainly includes JJ, and probably TT, AKs, as well as some other hands. Even with those listed, we're back to being at least a 2:1 favorite to be way in front, and we can win some money for sure against that range. Folding this flop is criminal, as is checking. We should be looking to get it all-in on this street, or on the flop+turn combined.

Re: I am probably one of the worst 10/20 players this week
 

Yeah, allright, then I did misunderstood you, sorry for that. And yes, the idea presented of giving 2-beting/3-beting and so on a linear scale of what kind of hand you're trying to represent, stolen from fixed, is clearly an interesting one, and was well worthwhile reading [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

FWIW, I think most, if not all, players of these sterotypical multitabling tags are of the first group in tightness facing a large 4-bet with these stacks out of position, until OP has given[shown] them a reason to change this approach.

Re: I am probably one of the worst 10/20 players this week
 

cero,

[ QUOTE ]
Stats around 27/15/4.

[/ QUOTE ]

I play the 600 game, but there are a few people exactly like this villain that 3-bet me mercilessly with trash when I open-raise CO/Button (my image is more like 20/10ish) and pot all flops. I feel like 4-betting occasionally with hands like 99, JTs, (and then obviously AA/KK) is the best way to keep them in line. At this level, I expect them to fold everything but AA/KK/maybe QQ. Do you think this is the wrong approach?

Thanks

Re: I am probably one of the worst 10/20 players this week
 

Well, I almost never put in a third raise preflop. This opponent probably hasn't seen me do it. However, the general texture of Party 10/20 6-max, at least among the regulars, is that reraises out of position usually indicate a top hand (TT/AQs/AKo or better), and I believe this guy's reraising range to be about the same. With the blind steal situation, that can be expanded a little bit: say 77/ATs/AQo. But since he has never seen me come over the top of a reraise before, it's pretty tough to call with JJ and hope I'm stealing, considering that I seem to be fairly straightforward preflop. He'd be forced to call off his stack where any board without a J could easily lead to him being behind. He doesn't have anywhere near set odds either, so he would have to believe JJ is a better hand than mine a good portion of the time.

It's possible that he is holding a hand other than AA/KK/QQ/AK, but is he going to give me action? Clearly he didn't flop a set with a weaker pair, and this board doesn't look great for TT or JJ. I'm not checking the flop because I'm assuming that I'm behind (simple probability combined with the way I think he plays preflop leads me to put him on AA as the most likely hand), but because I don't think he will give me action unless he does indeed have KK or QQ. Just as I don't think he will give me action without a set, he shouldn't expect that his AK or JJ will be good if we get all-in on the flop, regardless of what he thought preflop. The only hand I can see getting in with that I beat is KQ, but I don't see him calling 500 more out of position with KQs. Even AA would have to be wary of KK or QQ, and with the preflop ranges of most of the 10/20 regulars, those would have to be the most likely hands for me to hold if he had AA. Again, I could have AK to his AA, but I'd be behind everything and so wouldn't end up getting all-in.

Cero, I still don't understand quite what you mean by the linear scale--could you explain that a bit more?

Re: I am probably one of the worst 10/20 players this week
 

[ QUOTE ]
cero,

[ QUOTE ]
Stats around 27/15/4.

[/ QUOTE ]

I play the 600 game, but there are a few people exactly like this villain that 3-bet me mercilessly with trash when I open-raise CO/Button (my image is more like 20/10ish) and pot all flops. I feel like 4-betting occasionally with hands like 99, JTs, (and then obviously AA/KK) is the best way to keep them in line. At this level, I expect them to fold everything but AA/KK/maybe QQ. Do you think this is the wrong approach?

Thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

99 isn't a good hand to do it with [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Seriously though, I think the best hands to pull a 3-raise steal with would be anything with an Ace or a low/medium suited connector.

Re: I am probably one of the worst 10/20 players this week
 

Hi edge,

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not checking the flop because I'm assuming that I'm behind (simple probability combined with the way I think he plays preflop leads me to put him on AA as the most likely hand), but because I don't think he will give me action unless he does indeed have KK or QQ. Just as I don't think he will give me action without a set, he shouldn't expect that his AK or JJ will be good if we get all-in on the flop, regardless of what he thought preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right. I understand why the post-flop action is worrisome for you, but oh well--there's 1500 in the pot already, and you have 2500 left. It's too late to try to keep from getting stacked here. Your stack has got to go in. I assume this is what aba20 meant when he said he doesn't worry about getting undersetted in a 4-bet pot. He might be worried, but the huge pot that's created has to take precedence over that fear. And, that same (correct) line of thinking will make it tough to get away from AA/AK, and may tempt Villain to move with TT/JJ, hoping for a fold sometimes and 6 outs twice when called.

The linear scale thing was just the way that blind-stealing situations can be analyzed in limit, and my point was that that would be a bad model for NL thinking, since in limit, each successive bet is the same size as the one before/after it.

Re: I am probably one of the worst 10/20 players this week
 

I thought this entire post was a parody thread until the last sentence...

Re: I am probably one of the worst 10/20 players this week
 

just because he defended his 240 reraise doesn't mean he's got a huge pair here. People will get stubborn preflop here. It's still possible in my book that he has KQs, KJs etc. I'm moving in on the flop everytime. Big pot, huge draws present, lots of cards that kill my action if I'm ahead or turns cards that will prevent me from pushing/ or lets him draw cheaply to the river. Also it's nonsense to say he is folding AA a lot of the times here