I\'m about to stop playing poker.
 

I'm fed up, and heres why.

A little background info about me:
I'm a student at FSU and a major in mechanical engineering. So, im 20, and i know all the mathematics there is to know in the world. I've mastered calculus down to a science. So basically, yeah i get statistics.

My skill level at small limit holdem:
I've been playing online at partypoker for almost a year now at small limits (.50/1.00). Online, i am a winning player at about 3 out of 4 of my sessions (by that i mean make a profit)

Most of us know who've played online understand just how tight those players are. To reap a profit at these table, i must be a tighter player. For example, i know to fold KJo in early position... and fold AQo to a raise from early positon. And i understand the theory behind these plays.

I've read Skalinski/Malmuth Holdem for advanced players, and Skalinski/Malmuth Small Stakes Holdem. I understand everything in it.

So in short, im a tight/agressive (tight/weak when i dont hit top pair, a strong draw, or better on the flop, i fold.)
I don't take chances to draw out unless i have the pot odds to justify it.

My beef with poker:
After winning at online holdem, i figure why not try real life holdem at the small time casino where i live (tallahassee, FL). All they offer is 2/2$ straight holdem.

After sitting down at the table and watching a few hands i realize the huge difference between REAL LIFE and online poker. The pots are huge! At these tables, there will normally be 7 players that see the flop! 3 that call until showdown! I figure i will bank a ton of money, but the complete opposite has happened to me. I've lost 240$ over the past week at this place, normally buying in for 60$ and playing tight/agessive.

"Losing 240$, 120 bets, how?" you ask.
Let me tell you. To ABSOLUTE fish when i have a premium hand (AA, KK, QQ, Aks, AQs).

Overall ive had AA 4 times, and raise (of course) each time i get them. Normally the players at these tables will even cap it off for me. So thats fine with me, cause i hold the best possible hand when the money went in. Whats more disturbing is that 6 other players will COLD CALL these bets and see the flop with ABSOLUTE GARBAGE HANDS.

Every single time i've had AA (4 times) i've lost to someone drawing out to two pair or better. Because they never fold! EVER! Calling stations are winning! My problem: ALL of my (AA, KK) premium hands that get capped preflop FALL EACH TIME to garbage. No joke, those 4 times ive had aces, and 2 times that ive had KK, Ive lost to someone calling with K2s, 67o, 10/2o, 68o, JJ, and 6/3o. Quite amazing i think. Im frustrated at all hell that im losing money with premium hands, and even more frustrated that fish playing garbage hands are taking it!

Wait, theres more instanity to come. I've had QQs three times, lost each time to some calling station drawing out. There are normally about 3/4 calling stations everytime i play at this casino at my table alone, so they are always in the hand.

Even more, when im the one on opened ended straight or a flush draw, it never comes! I've had these draws 10 times and not a SINGLE ONE has come in! Normally i check raise for value on these draws against so many players, but my confidence that they will come in has approached 0%. Theoretically i should have made about 33.33% of these draws.
Reality, 0%.

So my premium hands hands and flush/straight draws have fallen each time at this casino.

I've also had AK three times, and its fallen three times (1 time i hit an A or K on the flop and it lost to two pair, the other two times i folded because i missed the flop and had no draws.)

I've had about 20 pocket pairs that i've limped with (5+ players preflop makes it profitable). I've never made a set on the flop.

So, In short, Fish who call to the river with garbage hands are taking my money. I understand that this could be a bad string of beats, as i've only played at that casino for a total of 12 hours.

But losing with these draws and premium hands each time is STATISCALLY impossible. I can't believe the hands that im losing to!

I should have profited hundred of dollars by now, instead im down -240$. I dont make loose preflop calls, call raises cold, or call/bet/RR on the flop without correct odds. Why am i losing? What can i do? WHY ARE THE MOST PROFITABLE TYPES OF PLAYERS TO HAVE AT A POKER TABLE ( CALLING STATIONS) TAKING MY MONEY?

I dont I'm an expert at holdem, but i know im better than any of the foolish old men (calling stations) at these tables.

Im going insane here guys.
Help.

Re: I\'m about to stop playing poker.
 

[ QUOTE ]
WHY ARE THE MOST PROFITABLE TYPES OF PLAYERS TO HAVE AT A POKER TABLE ( CALLING STATIONS) TAKING MY MONEY?


[/ QUOTE ]

Because you touch yourself at night.

Re: I\'m about to stop playing poker.
 

Having a bad run over 12 hours of live play is not statistically impossible at all.

Also, read WLLHE by Lee Jones if you haven't already. That book gets dogged on 2+2 a bunch, but it was written for exactly the type of B&M situation you are describing.

Re: I\'m about to stop playing poker.
 

Also, at these types of tables AA-QQ go down in value and suited connectors and smaller pairs (for set value) go up.

Re: I\'m about to stop playing poker.
 

Different games call for strategy adjustments. No offense, but you're not quite as good as you thought you were. You need to read your books again and learn what adjustments you should be making. One thing's for sure...

If you can't beat bad players and real good games, you'll never beat real good players and tough games.

Re: I\'m about to stop playing poker.
 

Take a walk down the hall to someone in your dorm that has studied statistics instead of calculus. They can help you understand the long run (which you've read about in Sklansky books but have not, earlier assertions aside, understood). Four hands, ten hands...those are laughable numbers during which any result is possible.

It's not easy to hear, but you have a lot to learn about poker. Your comment that you win 75% of sessions on line proves right off the bat that you don't understand what it means to win at poker. The nice thing is, you're not alone; we all have a lot to learn about poker. Read the small and micro stakes forums on this site and post hands when you're ready (not bad beats, but hands you're genuinely curious about after lots of reading and studying other hands and responses).

Martin

Re: I\'m about to stop playing poker.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Also, at these types of tables AA-QQ go down in value and suited connectors and smaller pairs (for set value) go up.

[/ QUOTE ]

you are [censored] retarded. AA is the best hand, PERIOD. I don't care if it's HU or vs 9 players.

Give me any hand vs 9 others and I'll take AA every single time.

Just because the number of times AA loses vs 9 people doesn't mean it loses value.

Re: I\'m about to stop playing poker.
 

If you know so much about math then why don't you understand the simple, fundamental concept of variance?

Re: I\'m about to stop playing poker.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, at these types of tables AA-QQ go down in value and suited connectors and smaller pairs (for set value) go up.

[/ QUOTE ]

you are [censored] retarded. AA is the best hand, PERIOD. I don't care if it's HU or vs 9 players.

Give me any hand vs 9 others and I'll take AA every single time.

Just because the number of times AA loses vs 9 people doesn't mean it loses value.

[/ QUOTE ]

While this is true, it is much tougher to play high pocket pairs, which inexperienced players perceive as "losing value."

In a large multiway pot, playing big pairs is often tricky and need to be folded routinely, something a lot of players can't do.

Besides, his comment is not technically wrong. Big pairs do go down in value while suited connectors go up in value, especially in loose/passive low-limit games.

Re: I\'m about to stop playing poker.
 

[ QUOTE ]
im 20, and i know all the mathematics there is to know in the world.

[/ QUOTE ]

haha man thats great.


If losing $2 dollar bets makes you that angry, yea you might as well quit

Re: I\'m about to stop playing poker.
 

You are under bankrolled to be playing poker. This is the only logical explanation for your plight with poker, considering you seem like a smart enough guy.

[ QUOTE ]
But losing with these draws and premium hands each time is STATISCALLY impossible. I can't believe the hands that im losing to!

[/ QUOTE ]

You know this isn't the case.

The only way to win is to play a ton of hands and gain experience. You can read all the literature you want, but that's not going to work unless you put your time in.

Re: I\'m about to stop playing poker.
 

Florida poker is rediculous: plain and simple. With the way the table limits are down there, combined with the fact that its the only kind of poker many of the locals know(meaning it only costs them $2-$6 a round at all times I believe?), its just bingo: plain and simple. I wouldn't let your results from the live games down there hurt your ego. Try taking a vacation to a neighboring state, or somewhere reasonably close to Florida that allows bigger games, and then get back to us...

Re: I\'m about to stop playing poker.
 

[ QUOTE ]
All they offer is 2/2$ straight holdem.


The pots are huge!

[/ QUOTE ]

Almost made me spew coke on my monitor when I read that one!

There is some good advice in this thread and I will leave to you to read and impliment it...

Re: I\'m about to stop playing poker.
 

A) You are not as smart as you think you are

B) You are not as good a player as you think you are

C) You do not understand poker theory

D) Google "Variance"

E) "i know all the mathematics there is to know in the world. I've mastered calculus down to a science." No you don't

Re: I\'m about to stop playing poker.
 

I think the weirdest part about this is the approach. I started at 3/6 limit. I would get soooooper steamed after every raggedy two pair beat my ak. Then I started reading sshe and wllhe and playing online. I'm immune to bad beats when I'm only holding ONE PAIR!

Re: I\'m about to stop playing poker.
 

OP,

You need to move to Vegas or AC so you can move up to a level where people will respect your raises! How someone as smart as you can miss such an obvious answer is mind-boggling.

Re: I\'m about to stop playing poker.
 

1) Playing live you are not playing many hands/hour particularly in loose games and you can't multitable, so the variance is higher.

2) These loose games can be pretty profitable, but the stakes are low and the rake is high.

3) The low limit online limit holdem these days is pretty tight, but the players are not great. You need a different strategy playing loose games. SSHE is the best guide. You mention playing big hands preflop. In these games, you should generally play speculative hands to make more than two pair. You need to fold on the flop a lot when you miss, but sometimes you have odds to continue.

4) As the other posters have said, nothing you have said convinces me you are a very good player.

5) If you can beat certain tight online games, maybe you play better in tighter games. The skills required are somewhat different.

6) These games sound awfully soft. I would give it another try. Your bad results are probably due to variance and inexperience in live play and loose games.

Re: I\'m about to stop playing poker.
 

tl;dr

Re: I\'m about to stop playing poker.
 

I don't think your results are due to variance. I regularly play in a similar game at the greyhound track in Melbourne, FL. So much dead money goes into those pots that it is unlikely that you can wind up losing money over multiple seesions unless you are failing to make the proper adjustments for the game.

The key to that game is to build large pots when you have equity. And make sure you are counting your pot odds correctly. When there's typically 14 or more big bets ($2 bets on every street) in the pot pre-flop you really shouldn't be folding your draws very often (Yeah, the guy who hit his gutshot on the river was correct to call the flop and turn. Imagine that!).

And one more piece of advice. The rake and tip are so large compared to the bet size that you have to make sure you are sitting with only clueless players. I've found that just 2 other good players at the table makes it difficult to be profitable. Of course, this is Florida so that doesn't happen very often.

Re: I\'m about to stop playing poker.
 

blah blah blah

Re: I\'m about to stop playing poker.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Your comment that you win 75% of sessions on line proves right off the bat that you don't understand what it means to win at poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: I\'m about to stop playing poker.
 

[ QUOTE ]


Just because the number of times AA loses vs 9 people doesn't mean it loses value.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have never understood this argument about big pairs going down in value. Small pairs go up in value because of set value? Aces don't have set value?

As you say, obviously you are going to get your aces cracked more often against 7 callers than against 1. But when you don't get cracked, you are going to take down some huge pots. And KK has a lot more showdown value than 66.

Big pairs do lose a lot of value in multiway pots if you play them as if you were heads up, however.

Re: I\'m about to stop playing poker.
 

Because AA will never flop anything but top set and chances are people won't bet or raise with middle pair whereas 66 on an AK6 board = hella mad bets

Re: I\'m about to stop playing poker.
 

[ QUOTE ]
OP,

You need to move to Vegas or AC so you can move up to a level where people will respect your raises!

[/ QUOTE ]

The 30-60 game at the Bellagio last week when I was there was exactly like this 2-2 game. I don't think limits matter.

After two minutes in the game I realized it was going to be crazy and I played accordingly. That includes strapping on the seat belt to prepare for major swings.

Re: I\'m about to stop playing poker.
 

This would seem like a unique situation except for the fact that THERE'S A WHOLE FREAKING FORUM DEVOTED TO IT.

Hi!

Re: I\'m about to stop playing poker.
 

You don't know the game. You don't know how to play Holdem.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm fed up, and heres why.



Im going insane here guys.
Help.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: I\'m about to stop playing poker.
 

Read SSHE, get some more poker under your belt and check back in six months. And make sure to bookmark this post, so you can re-read it and shake your head at how foolish you once were.

Re: I\'m about to stop playing poker.
 

my post clearly states that i HAVE read SSHE (Small Stakes Hole'Em). Why am i so foolish? I am intrigued and interested to find out holes in my playing abilities. You assert this with out providing reasons to support your statement.

Re: I\'m about to stop playing poker.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why am i so foolish? I am intrigued and interested to find out holes in my playing abilities.

[/ QUOTE ]

The way I read your post and the subject is "I'm about to stop playing poker" and you want to quit.

SSHE
 

I did read it. My post above even says that. Many of you criticize me, but offer no help to improve my game.

Re: I\'m about to stop playing poker.
 

OP, think about what you are saying for a minute. Really think. You do not want to be in a 7 way pot with high pocket pair. You're playing with a bunch of old guys who like to call because this is where they spend all their time. What you need to do is play contrary to your style and start playing those less premium hands in the hopes that you will be the one who sucks out or you need to stop playing live at a casino where the spread is so bad. Stick with online poker until you can afford to travel to a real casino. Personally I don't think you stand much of a chance at a 2/2 local game with 7 calling stations who all want to cap PF.

Re: I\'m about to stop playing poker.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm a student at FSU and a major in mechanical engineering. So, im 20, and i know all the mathematics there is to know in the world. I've mastered calculus down to a science. So basically, yeah i get statistics.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ever thought of playing limit omaha high-low? It has far less variance than limit HE and has a good math basis which you will understand quickly (and that could feel rewarding). You also seem like you would have the extreme patience & decipline that omaha h/l requires.

This is coming from a 23 year old newly graduate of computer engineering FWIW.

Re: I\'m about to stop playing poker.
 

You mention a lot of bad beats with big pairs, but say nothing about suited connectors. How are you doing with them?

Re: I\'m about to stop playing poker.
 

[ QUOTE ]
my post clearly states that i HAVE read SSHE (Small Stakes Hole'Em). Why am i so foolish?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because a foolish person reads SSHE and thinks they're done. A wiser person studies it, many times over.

Martin

Re: I\'m about to stop playing poker.
 

You need to practice playing in very loose games, which are very, very, VERY common in B&M settings. Play at some of the free play money tables online and that will give you a pretty good feel of what alot of B&M games are like sometimes. People play at the play money tables online alot like they play in the B&M's so they can be very good practice if you don't have much experience with those types of games. If 7 or 8 people are seeing the flop and going to the turn and river with their hands, your top pair top kicker hand is going to lose almost all the time.

Re: I\'m about to stop playing poker.
 

$2/$2 limit hold em poker in Florida is a sham compared to what actual limit poker is like in Las Vegas/Atlantic City/anywhere else. You cannot possibly gauge your abilities playing this pokerized version of Roulette.

Strde, get over it. You're probably a better player than the results of your live session suggests. In fact, anyone that knows what "pot equity" or an "M" is will probably fare better anywhere than in Florida (although from what I understand the $2/$4 game in Vegas is about as lame).

You should shrug off the loss, win enough online to fly to Vegas and give yourself another shot.

And finally, GO HURRICANES!!!!!!!!

Re: I\'m about to stop playing poker.
 

To OP,

Some people can be very smart, but their decision making ability very poor. It's possible that you need to focus on making better decisions. For instance, your post... many bad choices made in regards to the wording, the placement and the content.

Re: I\'m about to stop playing poker.
 

Your train of thought here although correct in almost every form of poker, is not correct in this sort of game. Ive played in these Seminole casino low limit games before (2/2 in Hard Rock Tampa to be exact) and the only way you can walk away with money is you play big drawing hands
suited connectors are your best friend in this game. Also with big pocket pairs, think of it as raising for value, not raising to get people out with 10 6 off-suit that dont belong because when your playing no-foldem you cant get people off rags. Just be prepared to throw away your aces or kings and look for big draws. I always walk away with money on thses tables because you just need one big payoff. That 80 dollar pot that you win should be more than enough to cover the small amount you lose by playing tighter than the rest of the table.
Just remember, its only 2/2 so you will pay off 40 misplaced bets or missed flops.
Also get your damn money in with hands early because of the cheap turn/river cards.

Re: I\'m about to stop playing poker.
 

AA vs 6 slightly better than random hands is probably going to win less than one in three times. It's still going to be the favorite, winning far more than 1 in 7 times, but the favorite in a 7-horse race doesn't win every time. So losing with AA 4 times in a row is no huge accomplishment worthy of calling Guinness in to document. If at the river you still hold a single pair, you're probably toast (though you're going to have a hard time folding to a $2 bet if the pot has $120 in it). You only have to win a couple of these $120-sized pots to completely erase all your loses.

As everybody has said, the variance will be terribly high. You're going to have a steady downward progression hand after hand with the rare, but large, spike upwards. If you're good at it and play plenty of hands (12 hours isn't plenty--that's maybe 350 hands?) you should see a small gain unless the rake is wiping it out. But losing $20/hr is no huge trick. Eventually you'll win $200 in a 3 hour session.

thanks
 

to all of you offering ideas and suggestions.