Deadwood v. The Sopranos
 

Recently I discovered the HBO series Deadwood on HBO On Demand. Welcome to two years ago. In any event, I watched the first two seasons almost obsessively (ok, my wife would tell you there was nothing "almost" about it). I have come to the conclussion that this series is far superior to The Sopranos.

First let me be clear that I am not hating on The Sopranos (TS from here on); it's a good series and I look forward to the new episodes.

However, I don't think it's really in the same league as Deadwood (DW from here forward) in any way. The character development in DW is simply amazing, the best I have ever seen on screen. The Sweringen character is multi-layered, multi-dimensional, extremely complex. I love the way he has taken to talking to the Indian's severed head, his only friend.

Even the lower-profile players are deeply faceted, like E.B., Dan, etc. In fact, it is hard to say there are many true bit players; there are more major parts than bits, something that does not seem to be true of TS. Probably the "bittest" recurring parts would be characters like Wu and Tolliver's junkie faro dealer.

For completeness, my least favorite character is probably Bullock's partner. He is the flattest of the characters; so flat that after watching 24 episodes I can't recall his first name (I know his last name is Starr).

The dialogue in DW is just spectacular. It's practically Shakespearian in it's meter. After watching the "Trusting the Process" short on the making of the series, I'm amazed with the OCD fashion in which the dialogue is written. As is mentioned in that shot, the ideas are compressed down under tremendous pressure until a diamond of dialogue is produced, with hours being spend producing a couple of pages.

The fact that there is no script for this show is absolutely astounding. The plot grows in an organic fashion, and the episodes are shot scene by scene, with the actors and writers not knowing what is coming next, like life. While I am not impressed with all of the turns (the death of Bullock's son/nephew seemed formulaic and closed more doors on the potential future plot than it opened, and the marriage of the widow Garret to Elsworth seems to offer poor replacements to those aborted potentialities), the overall result is impressive. The Wolcott supblot was a particularly satisfying example of a story arc within the show.

It probably isn't fair to compare TS after 6 seasons to DW after only two. After all, many people claim that TS experienced a steep decline after the first two seasons in particular; myself included. I actually didn't watch the show for a couple of seasons because I found it very frustrating, a lot of tension with little resolution, unsatisfying denouments of subplots. Story arcs that failed to arc. The show failed to hold my attention. Last season and this one have been much improved, and I again look forward to the show, but it remains lackluster in comparison to DW.

Re: Deadwood v. The Sopranos
 

I look forward to discussion/comments on these two. I've got season 1 of both these series on the shelf (I've avoided sopranos completely, having missed season 1, until I finally bought them).

Discussion here will surely decide me which of these two to watch next. I'm open to persuasion [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: Deadwood v. The Sopranos
 

Hmm. I hope it didn't spoilerize too much of the show for you. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Re: Deadwood v. The Sopranos
 

I don't mind spoilers in TV shows, unless I'm already watching them. I blew my top once when I was halfway through 24 season 1, and just came across a magazine that gave the end away without so much as a chance to avoid it, but if I've not started watching the thing, I really don't care. In fact, it'll probably make me more interested to see the show.

spoilers on films are a different matter, however. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

BTW, from your opening words, DW is winning for me at the moment.

Re: Deadwood v. The Sopranos
 

I flip the other way, personally - Deadwood is good, without question. But the Sopranos is far superior.

There are moments where Deadwood is absolutely brilliant, the dialog fantastic and certain characters exceedingly interesting. However, I find about half of the sub-characters to be mildly interesting at best.

For me, I think it comes down to some almost unexpresable emotional attachment - i eagerly await every new Sopranos episode because I know its going to be something I'm going to enjoy. Compared to Deadwood is something I can go several days without catching off the Tivo, when its on - there's no question its excellent, but it just doesn't hold that same emotional attachment as does the Sopranos. I think a lot of it comes down to empathizable characters - Bullock as the "hero" doesn't play well for me, I had a hard time sympathizing with him during the affair / etc. Sweringen is an amazing character, portrayed by an amazing actor, but he's also not a sympathetic character either.

But everyone wants to be a member of the Soprano family.

Re: Deadwood v. The Sopranos
 

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There are moments where Deadwood is absolutely brilliant, the dialog fantastic and certain characters exceedingly interesting. However, I find about half of the sub-characters to be mildly interesting at best.

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See, that's exactly how I feel about TS. Characters that I feel should be central and deep are one or two dimensional at best. Meadow Soprano is practically set dressing, and the endless apathy/angst of AJ is just a caricature of a teenage male.

Many of the subplots seem to be of the form "What if we made a mob guy X?" Like, "What if we made a mob guy gay?" You get Vito. "What if we made a mob guy a junkie?" You get Chris (although to be fair Chris is deeper than that, and one of the better characters). "What if we made a mob guy senile?" Uncle Junior. "What if we made a mob guy sweet and gentle?" Bobby Bacala.

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For me, I think it comes down to some almost unexpresable emotional attachment - i eagerly await every new Sopranos episode because I know its going to be something I'm going to enjoy. Compared to Deadwood is something I can go several days without catching off the Tivo, when its on - there's no question its excellent, but it just doesn't hold that same emotional attachment as does the Sopranos. I think a lot of it comes down to empathizable characters - Bullock as the "hero" doesn't play well for me, I had a hard time sympathizing with him during the affair / etc. Sweringen is an amazing character, portrayed by an amazing actor, but he's also not a sympathetic character either.

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That's my point about the complex characters on DW, though. All of them are sympathetic at times and unsympatetic at others. The characters are really N-dimensional.

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But everyone wants to be a member of the Soprano family.

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Not me. But like I said, it's a good show and I enjoy it.

Re: Deadwood v. The Sopranos
 

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Deadwood is good, without question. But the Sopranos is far superior.



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Re: Deadwood v. The Sopranos
 

These are my two favorite series, and at this point I prefer Deadwood.

But I think that this may simply be a function of the fact that Deadwood is a newer show.

Re: Deadwood v. The Sopranos
 

I've tried to watch a few epps of Deadwood. Just couldn't hook me.

In terms of shows on HBO

The Wire >>>>>>>>> The Sopranos

Re: Deadwood v. The Sopranos
 

I prefer The Sopranos, though some seasons overall have been sort of meh.

Re: Deadwood v. The Sopranos
 

The Wire > Deadwood > Sopranos

Re: Deadwood v. The Sopranos
 

Okay, you Wire guys. Fill me in, why is The Wire better than these two?

I got DW and TS cos I heard they were fab, but The Wire isn't on my radar.

Re: Deadwood v. The Sopranos
 

I remember watching the first episode of DW. I thought "First TS and now this. HBO's doing great with series."
By the third episode I thought DW was just blowing TS away and it's never went back.

Re: Deadwood v. The Sopranos
 

I have to say I agree with runkmud 100%. The Wire is hands down the best program on TV today. I do love the other two, but IMO the level of characterisation and detail in TW does blow them away.

Basically, it's a simple cop show. However unlike most, instead of 1 hour long episode story lines, it focuses on a complete investigation. In each episode but the last, there is very little resolution - it is paced much more like a book than a TV show. On top of this, the writing and acting is incredible. After 12 episodes, you literally feel like you know the people.

Also, the attitude towards morality is somewhat similar to Deadwood IMO. TW has about equal time showing the villains and the cops, and on each side there are sympathetic and EXTREMELY unsmpathetic characters. I could write a whole load more, but I'll just say you should watch this as soon as possible.

Re: Deadwood v. The Sopranos
 

I'll have to check TW out. One of the things that bothers me about TS is that little attention is paid to the machinations of the other mob, the Feds.

It is nice to see the poll backing me up on DW > TS, by a factor of 2:1 no less.

Re: Deadwood v. The Sopranos
 

The Wire is amazing. The show has almost 40 unique, well-drawn characters...and none of it feels jammed in at all.

Take this for instance. Out of all those characters there are maybe 5 who are "minor" characters. Everyone else is detailed and has their own unique motivations and profiles. And that's not even taking account of the whole Union group from season 2; Frank Sobotka, Nicky, Ziggy, Horseface, The Greek, Vondas, Beatrice Russell etc.

Man. Deadwood is great. Another show with a bunch of well-drawn characters. But it's not The Wire.

Re: Deadwood v. The Sopranos
 

One reason I've never watched The Wire is that I assumed it would be extremely bleak and depressing. Is that a fair assumption?

Re: Deadwood v. The Sopranos
 

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Okay, you Wire guys. Fill me in, why is The Wire better than these two?

I got DW and TS cos I heard they were fab, but The Wire isn't on my radar.

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The Wire is one of the best shows on TV, but I don't think most would agree it's better than Sopranos (although most would agree it's better than Deadwood). I don't have any mass polling information, but of the people I know, the consensus is Sopranos > Wire > Deadwood.

Deadwood is, don't get me wrong, a great show as well (HBO has terrific programming) but, of their shows, I think it's not as strong as Sopranos or Wire or the now-defunct Six Feet Under or Oz.

There are some basic shows that all seem to go together on people's watch lists -- Sopranos, Wire, 24, Lost, Shield, Rescue Me, Nip/Tuck -- at least when you're talking about current shows (now that Six Feet and West Wing are gone).

Re: Deadwood v. The Sopranos
 

I see the Sopranos contingent has finally hit the poll.

Re: Deadwood v. The Sopranos
 

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One reason I've never watched The Wire is that I assumed it would be extremely bleak and depressing. Is that a fair assumption?

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I guess...but it's also riveting. Watching the characters interact is truly a joy.

Re: Deadwood v. The Sopranos
 

The characterization on The Wire is amazing. Amost everybody has some depth, nobody is cliche, it all feels authentic (save Brother Mozone, who is a black mark on the show, but slightly mitigated by his badassness).

It's an amazingly smart show. It doesn't treat the audience like idiots, but it's not hard to follow or grasp. It deals with real world issues without being preachy and managed to show you both criminal and police without an overdose of judgement.

Re: Deadwood v. The Sopranos
 

I haven't seen any of The Sopranos, but Deadwood caught hold of me like just like the OP, just these past few weeks. It's really something amazing; hopefully the 3rd season will be even better. Especially the language, but also just the entire atmosphere of the show is like nothing I've ever seen on TV before.

Re: Deadwood v. The Sopranos
 

Deadwood is a great show. Easily one of my favorite TV shows ever. Al Swearengen is probably my favorite character in any currently running TV show. Still, Sopranos is a better show overall.

Re: Deadwood v. The Sopranos
 

Also, having just watched the Deadwood season 2 finale last night for the first time... is there any other episode in an HBO series with that much plot movement? There is in insane amount of [censored] going on in that episode, especially in the last 15 minutes.


*Spoiler*

Also... I totally didn't see Cy getting stabbed coming at all.

Re: Deadwood v. The Sopranos
 

Well I can see everyones points here. I have seen most every HBO show from day one (with 3 notable exceptions). I used to really like the Soprano's (still do) but Deadwood is far superior to TS. I do not even think it is close. I think by everyone saying TS is the best show on TV today it is largely living on its rep. After season 2 it went from the top show to a top 5 show. That is normal for almost any show, it is tough to maintain the top when everyone is gunning for you.

I think Deadwoods problem with people watching is that it is kind of a bleak setting and the cursing turns people off initially. LOL If you can get past that, the characters are amazing, the writing and dialogue are great. Swearengen is probably the best Anti-Hero on TV or at least on par with Vic Mackey. BTW I loved the cursing I thought it was a gas the first moment they played Deadwood.

There is not a character I dislike. My favorite sub-character is Mr. Woo the way that actor delivers his 5 words is funny as hell. I laughed everytime he says San Francisco C-ckS--ker. I think the reason for Sol Starr's flat effect is to buffer Bullock's nasty temper. So in this context his character development is great as well. Well I could go on about the Doc and Jane and others but I do not want a 50 page dissertation on why I love the show and its characters.

It really is a shame this is going to be the last season. That totally sucks.

Here is my HBO show line:

Deadwood> The Wire> Oz>TS> Rome (did not like it much)>Carnivale (I really should not include it I only saw a few episodes and never got hooked).................... I did not or will not watch 6Feet Under or Big Love (will not)

Re: Deadwood v. The Sopranos
 

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One reason I've never watched The Wire is that I assumed it would be extremely bleak and depressing. Is that a fair assumption?

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No not really. I wouldn't call it upbeat but it is a great show.

Re: Deadwood v. The Sopranos
 

i have seen every episode of the sopranos and am in the process of watching deadwood season 1. I agree the dialogue in deadwood is great. I enjoy deadwood more i guess.

Re: Deadwood v. The Sopranos
 

i rank them 1. deadwood 2. the wire 3. sopranos

and i [censored] love sopranos

Re: Deadwood v. The Sopranos
 

First of all, I can't comment on The Wire, because I haven't seen an episode.

After watching Season No. 1 of Deadwood, I was totally on the bandwagon. But the first four or five eps in the second season of DW had me down ... thought perhaps the 'Western' thing was perhaps something that only could go on for one season without it getting old.

I'll go back and watch the rest of DW2, but I just thought DW got old real quick and I lost interest in the characters, while The Sopranos has stayed strong (despite some down times) for the better part of six seasons with solid storylines and interesting character development.

Re: Deadwood v. The Sopranos
 

Deadwood fans: Rent the DVD of Season One, just to watch the pilot episode with David Milch's commentary. He will quickly become your favorite person ever. Right now, if I could have dinner with anyone in America, I'd choose Milch.

Season Two just came out on DVD last week. I'm looking forward to another hour of Milch speaking.

HBO has announced that Season Three will be the last. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Looking forward to Gerald McRaney (Hearst) playing a big role this season.

Anybody else see the similarities between Swearengen and Fonzie? They both kick ass, they both have everyone in the neighborhood coming to them for help with their problems, they both get all the girls they want, they both live in a small efficiency upstairs...how much would you pay to see Fonzie talking through one of his problems, while Pinky Tuscadero was on her knees, giving him a hum job?

Re: Deadwood v. The Sopranos
 

The Sopranos was great but isn't really anymore. This last season pretty much sucked. Deadwood right now far surpasses it. Sorry to see Deadwood will end after this season. Deadwood just looks and feels right and how it must have been back then much unlike most any other "sanitized" westerns we have ever seen.

Re: Deadwood v. The Sopranos
 

....When Deadwood first came out it was on right after the Sopranos...and it got to the point I looked more forward to that than Sopranos....I actually havent seen a Deadwood show since the 2nd last of season 1...but I do planning on wasting a day catching up....

...its sad that this will be the last season...but how far can a "western" really go...Even thought I havent missed an episode of Sopranos in a while I still think Deadwood is/was a better show....

Whats HBO gonna do with no TS or DW?

Re: Deadwood v. The Sopranos
 

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Whats HBO gonna do with no TS or DW?

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I read that part of the demise of DW is that Milch has a new show they just love. I believe it's called "Mike from Cincinnatti" and is about surfing. Sounds weird but HBO usually pitches a winner.

Re: Deadwood v. The Sopranos
 

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HBO has announced that Season Three will be the last.

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WTF are they thinking? This sucks.

Re: Deadwood v. The Sopranos
 

Sorry I don't see how this can even be close. WTF is voting for Deadwood?

Re: Deadwood v. The Sopranos
 

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WTF is voting for Deadwood?

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Simple it is a way better show. It is not even close.

Re: Deadwood v. The Sopranos
 

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WTF is voting for Deadwood?

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Simple it is a way better show. It is not even close.

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LOL.

Keep it on at 10 P.M. then. That gets the viewers!

Re: Deadwood v. The Sopranos
 

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WTF is voting for Deadwood?

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Simple it is a way better show. It is not even close.

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LOL.

Keep it on at 10 P.M. then. That gets the viewers!

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LOL It is on the same time as TS. Last I checked that was 9 P.M.

glad you can add to this discussion...............NH