Venetain Dilemma
 

Greetings,


Opinions sought..........



I already have my 50 hours in for the Venetian freeroll (a long time ago). A good friend of mine has about 4 hours to go (to qualify for his 50 hours for the month) and asks me if I'll come on down and play in his game and he'll buy me late night dinner afterwards.



I agree.


He's had a great, great week so far and decides to play the lowest limit game in the room to relax and get his last 4 hours in.



We're in the same game. It gets 3-handed. All of a sudden, we have a full game and it's a very great game.


A little later it gets down to 4 handed. Two players leave (leaving just me and my friend). We are happy to play (we have a reduced rake, $1 max at $30). We are playing and having a good time (and tipping the dealer better then Photoc at a Sushi Bar!).


Then the floor man comes over and hands us some empty racks and says. "games's over, you two rack up, this game is over".

I say, "What?"

He says he's not dealing a game heads up with a $1 rake.

I say that's what you told us 5 minutes ago ($1 at $30, max). He says rack up and leave.


As he's walking away to get some paper to officially break the game, other dealers whom I've known for years, say to me, "Howard this is B.S., ask "TOM", he's the big boss.


Steve (the floorman) comes over again to kick us out (again, we are tipping well to the dealers). I ask him if we can talk to "Tom". He tells us Tom is not around.


I again ask him about, if we can talk to Tom. He again tells us we have to leave or pay full rake (a few minutes after he (steve) gave us a reduced rake). He tells us we have to leave.



All of a sudden Tom shows up. He hears all of the facts from both Steve (the floorman) and me. He rules in my favor. My friend says, " I don't know if I even want to play here now". And faster then Photoc can leave a $5 tip at a fancy restaurant, we head off into the night in search of a late night dining experience.






All in all I enjoy the Venetian. As I was driving away, I called a couple of good 2+2 friends of mine (as to whether I should post this B&M experience on 2+2 B&M or not for feedback). They Both said, "Post it".


In a nut-shell,

1) I've never seen a floor man reduce a rake and then five minutes later say "Full rake or you're gone!".

2) I've never seen a floor man bring empty racks to a table and say, "game is over".



I'd love to hear from Randy R, Rick, N., Photoc, Don O. and all of you. If I'm out of line, let me know.


Thanks,

Howard

Re: Venetain Dilemma
 

You are not out of line at all. They are not closing so there is no reason to close a gmae where peopel are wanting to play. There are a lot of people that don't understand poker that consider a heads up game "stupid" and don't want it around.

Re: Venetain Dilemma
 

Howard,
WOW. THIS BAD, REAL BAD. I am going to take this to Lee if you do not mind. I have a meeting with him Monday to go over a few things about the room. Most of the stuff I like there. A few things I would like to see change or get a better answer to WHY they are doing things the way they are. WOW that was long winded. But hey, I can not write the way you do.
In a nut shell. YOU WERE RIGHT. THE FLOOR WAS WRONG.

Re: Venetain Dilemma
 

Thanks Randy and Don!

(I'm getting ready to go to bed).


BTW, I do think Tom the head floor man made things right (But my friend was tired of the situation by then, he's mellow) but I'm just plain in shock by Steve the other floor man. Give us one rake then revoke it minutes later???



Thanks again guys for the feeback!!!

Much thanks,

Howard

Re: Venetain Dilemma
 

Can't they close a table whenever the heck they want to close a table?

Re: Venetain Dilemma
 

[ QUOTE ]
Can't they close a table whenever the heck they want to close a table?

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course they can, but if tey start closing tables to dealers can go home etc they will soon be replaced.

Re: Venetain Dilemma
 

"Can't they close a table whenever the heck they want to close a table?"


Good question.

I may ask gaming about this.

But........

Even if they can. Is it a good practice for a place that is trying to build a poker room?


FWIW......I've played a gazillion hours of late night Vegas poker (a lot of it short handed) over the last decade +. I've never once (until tonight) had a floor man come over and give a reduced rake, then revoke it minutes later with empty racks in his hand. Then lie about it to his boss.


I like the room but This guy was someting else IHMO.


Thanks for the feedback.


Best Wishes

Howard

Re: Venetain Dilemma
 

[ QUOTE ]
Can't they close a table whenever the heck they want to close a table?

[/ QUOTE ]

They should do everything in their power to keep the customers happy. In a LV poker room if you upset 2 players you may never see them again (there is plenty of competition) but you may also never see many of their friends. Including the ones they have here.

Re: Venetain Dilemma
 

I think this is a pretty ridiculous move by the floor, but I can't say I'm surprised.

I played there on Tuesday. The only reason I'll play there again is if I'm in town with my sister who plays 3-6.

One dealer was underraking the pot and sometimes not raking at all in a full game. This, among other things (like getting confused about making change), indicated that he really didn't know how to run the game. One would think that the floor would make sure that the dealers take appropriate rake. If they are unable to train their dealers to do something like that, how well can they run a room on the whole?

It's nice to get $2 a hour and good water, but if I'm playing NL I want a dealer with a good handle on the game running the show. And they have them at Wynn and Bellagio.

Re: Venetain Dilemma
 

At Caesars last night(early morning) I let four people play
5-10 NL for no rake as long as they took care of my dealers(and they did)
and I let two guys play heads up for no rake on 2-5 NL.
I don't want to lose the games at 5am they might be full in an hour last night I had 8 games at 5am only one was a limit game 4-8

Re: Venetain Dilemma
 

[ QUOTE ]
At Caesars last night(early morning) I let four people play
5-10 NL for no rake as long as they took care of my dealers(and they did)
and I let two guys play heads up for no rake on 2-5 NL.
I don't want to lose the games at 5am they might be full in an hour last night I had 8 games at 5am only one was a limit game 4-8

[/ QUOTE ]

Well done. Taking care of your customers is job #1.

Re: Venetain Dilemma
 

Howard - I hope you know its 50/hrs month OR 200 total....

Don't stress at the end of the month to put in those hours

Re: Venetain Dilemma
 

[ QUOTE ]
At Caesars last night(early morning) I let four people play
5-10 NL for no rake as long as they took care of my dealers(and they did)
and I let two guys play heads up for no rake on 2-5 NL.
I don't want to lose the games at 5am they might be full in an hour last night I had 8 games at 5am only one was a limit game 4-8

[/ QUOTE ]

Perfect!! The floor should be hoping the players stick around and keep playing short-handed. The players are effectively doing the poker room a favor by keeping the game open, making it more likely a new player will stick around and play. Getting games started is the hard part.

And what overhead is there to the casino to keep the game running? They have to pay the dealer $5.15/hr. I think the $1 rake will cover that. So it's not like keeping the game open costs them money. The only thing I can conceive that could spark it is if the dealers were whining at him to let 'em EO (which doesn't justify it, but could explain it).

I really do wonder what qualifications they look for when they hire floor people.

Re: Venetain Dilemma
 

[ QUOTE ]
Can't they close a table whenever the heck they want to close a table?

[/ QUOTE ]
They should do everything they can to have the game going. If he dealers are being taken care of then there is nothing else floor should care for. Those two kept the game going for him not the other way around. When i play on the weekday HU or 3 handed Borgata does not charge ANY rake just to keep that game going and have a chance to have a full game later.

Re: Venetain Dilemma
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
At Caesars last night(early morning) I let four people play
5-10 NL for no rake as long as they took care of my dealers(and they did)
and I let two guys play heads up for no rake on 2-5 NL.
I don't want to lose the games at 5am they might be full in an hour last night I had 8 games at 5am only one was a limit game 4-8

[/ QUOTE ]

Perfect!! The floor should be hoping the players stick around and keep playing short-handed. The players are effectively doing the poker room a favor by keeping the game open, making it more likely a new player will stick around and play. Getting games started is the hard part.

And what overhead is there to the casino to keep the game running? They have to pay the dealer $5.15/hr. I think the $1 rake will cover that. So it's not like keeping the game open costs them money. The only thing I can conceive that could spark it is if the dealers were whining at him to let 'em EO (which doesn't justify it, but could explain it).

I really do wonder what qualifications they look for when they hire floor people.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's pretty obvious what the floor is thinking....

"The players at this table are all old degenerate gamblers - look at them. Let me shut down this laughable game so they can fill up another game making a hell of a lot more rake. If they don't like it - let them walk to the Mirage which is probably the most walking they've done in 20 years.

Re: Venetain Dilemma
 

Hi Howard:

[ QUOTE ]
I've never seen a floor man reduce a rake and then five minutes later say "Full rake or you're gone!".


[/ QUOTE ]

I have. This sort of stuff use to be quite common back in the 1980s when Las Vegas cardrooms frequently treated the players beyond bad. It's inexcusable.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: Venetain Dilemma
 

[ QUOTE ]
let four people play
5-10 NL for no rake as long as they took care of my dealers(and they did)

[/ QUOTE ]

If you would have said something like this to me, I don't think you would like the response. This is just shameful.

I tip a dealer because they do their job well. If they do their job poorly they get nothing. The same goes for floor people who enforce policies like this.

MM

Re: Venetain Dilemma
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
let four people play
5-10 NL for no rake as long as they took care of my dealers(and they did)

[/ QUOTE ]

If you would have said something like this to me, I don't think you would like the response. This is just shameful.

I tip a dealer because they do their job well. If they do their job poorly they get nothing. The same goes for floor people who enforce policies like this.

MM

[/ QUOTE ]

You are not going to pay rake and you object to tipping the dealers, no matter how bad? JEEEZ!!!!

JM

Re: Venetain Dilemma
 

I don't know much about live play really, but I agree with Mason.

I think it's inappropriate to continue a game on the contingent that the players 'tahe care' of the dealers.

i agree that the dealers should first consider whether they are taking care of the players. And if they are then the players may choose to reciprocate.


I think pokerfloor was getting at the idea that if they are a bunch of scum-bags and none of them EVER tip...And they all happen to be obnoxious...then they are more likely to just close-down the game.


But I think that's different than saying "we'll keep it open as long as you agree to take care of the dealers."


I also agree that the rooms should WANT these games going. These are the players who are STARTING games for you which is a good thing.
You are less likely to get full-tables if you don't let a couple of guys start-up or continue a game like this for you.

I don't understand why a room would WANT to close down games. The cost of keeping the dealer there is minimal.

Re: Venetain Dilemma
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think pokerfloor was getting at the idea that if they are a bunch of scum-bags and none of them EVER tip...And they all happen to be obnoxious...then they are more likely to just close-down the game.

But I think that's different than saying "we'll keep it open as long as you agree to take care of the dealers."


[/ QUOTE ]

ok... so pokerfloor coming right out and saying "toke or else" may be bad form. But it's honest. The game is dying and Caesars has cut out the rake completely. If a dealer comes back and reports "I made $6 that down" there's gonna be an obvious response...put the rake back to $4 and let that kill the game.

I think "toke or else" in this case was implied and could have gone without saying. But saying it isn't terribly evil.

Re: Venetain Dilemma
 

My phone rings at 5:00AM today and it's Howard calling to tell me about this. I told him to not only post it here but to go to whoever is the head person in charge of the Venetian poker room and make sure he or she knows about it as well. I have to say, the way Howard described it to me on the phone made it sound even worse than this post. When Howard told me the story this morning, I couldn't believe how rude and unprofessional the floor came off. I was especially stunned by the "Tom's not here" lie followed by Tom's appearance.

SpaceAce

Re: Venetain Dilemma
 

[ QUOTE ]
At Caesars last night(early morning) I let four people play
5-10 NL for no rake as long as they took care of my dealers(and they did)
and I let two guys play heads up for no rake on 2-5 NL.
I don't want to lose the games at 5am they might be full in an hour last night I had 8 games at 5am only one was a limit game 4-8

[/ QUOTE ]

This is headed down the path to outright theft. A casino would not think highly of its staff lowering or reducing the rake in exchange for better tokes.

Re: Venetain Dilemma
 

If you are playing heads up the casino should not take a rake in my opinion.

Re: Venetain Dilemma
 

Why?

Re: Venetain Dilemma
 

"1) I've never seen a floor man reduce a rake and then five minutes later say "Full rake or you're gone!"."

I have seen this but in a circumstance that made more sense. The game was shorthanded and asked for a rake reduction. There was another a game at the same limit going. The rake reduction was granted, but then a bunch of players left the other game and the floor wanted to consolidate the two games (there were seats for everyone) The players at the shorthanded game said they din't want to go to the other game so the floor told them they couldn't have a reduced rake if they stayed.

Re: Venetain Dilemma
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you are playing heads up the casino should not take a rake in my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

So the casino is suppossed to provide this service for free?

I agre ethat if the casino is trying to start a new game and they only have two players it makes sense to let them play free since your hoping that their playing will attract more players and then you will be able to get a rake.

But in the middle of the night when the game is dying there is no reason to allow players to play for free unless you really believe there is some hope of the game getting resurrected.

Re: Venetain Dilemma
 

[ QUOTE ]


I think pokerfloor was getting at the idea that if they are a bunch of scum-bags and none of them EVER tip...And they all happen to be obnoxious...then they are more likely to just close-down the game.


I also agree that the rooms should WANT these games going. These are the players who are STARTING games for you which is a good thing.
You are less likely to get full-tables if you don't let a couple of guys start-up or continue a game like this for you.

I don't understand why a room would WANT to close down games. The cost of keeping the dealer there is minimal.

[/ QUOTE ]

These players were not starting a game at 5AM. For the most part (at least in Vegas) games don't start at 5AM. If you let the game go rake free the casino is making no money and they are not like to start making money on this game anytime soon. Now if for some reason, in this particlur room the floor thinks that this game will be resurrected if he can just keep it going for a while then a rake reduction is appropriate.

I generally don't see casinos close poker tables while a game is going on, but they don't need to give away the house either.

Re: Venetain Dilemma
 

Was the floor man who did this a big black guy? When I was there this guy got into an argument with a couple of players at another table. I also thought he was rather rude when I said "have a good night" when I left.

Re: Venetain Dilemma
 

I couldn't agree anymore. I tip well 95% of the time but I am certainly not going to tip if my service is crappy cards, resturaunt, ect.) A tip is a tip, I don't appreciate people telling me what what I should or shouldn't tip.

Last weekend I had a dealer, when asked if the last game he was in was loose or tight said "It
s real loose,...there are 3 people on the table thouogh that don't tips, thats so annoying." I started laughing out loud at the dealer and said "Did you ever consider that they don't tip because you are jerk enough to make a comment like that, that is why I will never tip you again in my life not because I am cheap"

Re: Venetain Dilemma
 

Neither of you should be proud of that conversation.

Martin

Re: Venetain Dilemma
 

[ QUOTE ]
not because I am cheap

[/ QUOTE ]

Whatever it takes to get you through the day.

"I'm not a racist, but..."
"It's not that I'm cheap..."
"No offense, but..."
"I enjoy a good joke as much as the next person..."

I also love car dealers who call themselves "Honest" anything.

SpaceAce

Re: Venetain Dilemma
 

Well then he probably would not have had to say anything to you. But as you know there are plenty of people who have spent most of their short poker lives online and they don't know to tip.

Same as in tournament, a gentle reminder that if they'd like to take care of the dealers it would be much appreciated is unfortunately necessary because besides the cheap people there are the uneducated.

Re: Venetain Dilemma
 

Hi kjander:

In our book, The Professional Poker Dealer's Handbook, one of the attributes that we stressed was

[ QUOTE ]
Notice that we did not use the word “friendly.” While we agree that dealers should always be polite and pleasant, we need to stress that dealers need to be non-talkative and extremely focused on the game. Put another way, there should be no extraneous talking in the box. Be polite, but do not engage in conversations. Dealers who talk are more prone to errors — which sometimes erupt into big commotions.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your post is a good example as to why this room is needed and what a poor job many cardrooms do in this area.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: Venetain Dilemma
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well then he probably would not have had to say anything to you. But as you know there are plenty of people who have spent most of their short poker lives online and they don't know to tip.

Same as in tournament, a gentle reminder that if they'd like to take care of the dealers it would be much appreciated is unfortunately necessary because besides the cheap people there are the uneducated.

[/ QUOTE ]

He is talking about the floor that says "no rake if you take care of the dealer." This is after they have asked for a rake reduction. Are you implying there are players that know to ask for a rake reduction that don't know it is customary to tip the dealer?

Re: Venetain Dilemma
 

[ QUOTE ]
Same as in tournament, a gentle reminder that if they'd like to take care of the dealers it would be much appreciated is unfortunately necessary because besides the cheap people there are the uneducated.

[/ QUOTE ]

So after the tournament takes 3 percent of the prize pool out you're still not satisfied. Shame on you.

MM

Re: Venetain Dilemma
 

Hi bav:

[ QUOTE ]
ok... so pokerfloor coming right out and saying "toke or else" may be bad form. But it's honest. The game is dying and Caesars has cut out the rake completely. If a dealer comes back and reports "I made $6 that down" there's gonna be an obvious response...put the rake back to $4 and let that kill the game.


[/ QUOTE ]

You may be accurate in your view of the situation. I won't disput that. But mamagement with that type of attitude towards that players shouldn't be working in a poker room. It's certainly a sure way to run the business off.

Years ago, when there weren't enough poker tables in the casinos, managers with this attitude could get away with it and players like myself would come back anyway. Today, in a far more competitive environment, that's not the case.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: Venetain Dilemma
 

Hi CanIPlay:

[ QUOTE ]
You are not going to pay rake and you object to tipping the dealers, no matter how bad? JEEEZ!!!!


[/ QUOTE ]

That's absolutely right. I've paid plenty of rake over the years, and I've also done my share of game starting. It's my right to expect competent dealers and floor staff no matter what rake I'm paying on that current hand.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: Venetain Dilemma
 

I never said toke or else, you guys will argue over anything. I had to keep all my dealers till 10am because we had satalite tournaments starting at 8am for the Ladies Poker tournament if they are going to be there I would rather they were working. I was hoping that some of those people would come and fill the game the people at the table appreciated it and no one thought that the comment was out of line they were taking care of the dealers anyway, but some times you get people that don't know to tip you'er saying the whole table askes for a reduction but thats not the case usally one person mentions it, some people never think of it and it's the first time I ever said it.
and probably never will again after reading this.
At Caesars we try to keep the games going as long as possible even with no rake you just don't know if some people come in and fill it. This happens all the time it is what the management told us to do.It helps make people come back with all the rooms in the city you have to do what you can to have them come back

Re: Venetain Dilemma
 

It only takes one more person to go back to full rake.

Re: Venetain Dilemma
 

You're taking this way out of context I didn't stand and watch to see that they were tipping so I wouldn't know if they weren't tipping and I don't care, if they don't tip they don't tip. I was just trying to help the dealers. Grave shift is tough they never get all their hours and alot of people don't tip. I came from Atlantic city where I could never had said that. But wished I could sometimes.