5-5NL exremely deep short handed
 

Hero has ~3100 behind, villain has about the same. Hero is SB with A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. 4 handed. Villain is extremely tricky LAG. Very smart. This is at the bike.

Villain opens for 25, Button folds Hero calls BB folds
Flop (55)
A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hero bets 30, villain raises to 100, hero calls. I really suspect an A here for some reason.
Turn (255)
3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Hero checks villain bets 175, Hero?

Re: 5-5NL exremely deep short handed
 

I'd call down and expect to have the bets of it.

Re: 5-5NL exremely deep short handed
 

Fold preflop.

Re: 5-5NL exremely deep short handed
 

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Fold preflop.

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4 handed? villain has been raising 40 percent of his hands

Re: 5-5NL exremely deep short handed
 

Fold preflop. Fold any to flop raise. Fold on the turn.

Re: 5-5NL exremely deep short handed
 

I would fold preflop,even if he is rasing alot,and it"s 4 handed,
A7 is not the hand you want to play oop,there is not alot of good flop for a7,and you will get yourself in tough spots.
That said,I would call the turn,and see if he bets the river.Or I would bet 3/4 of the pot on the river myself.I doubt he would raise with out a better hand.

Re: 5-5NL exremely deep short handed
 

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I would fold preflop,even if he is rasing alot,and it"s 4 handed,
A7 is not the hand you want to play oop,there is not alot of good flop for a7,and you will get yourself in tough spots.
That said,I would call the turn,and see if he bets the river.Or I would bet 3/4 of the pot on the river myself.I doubt he would raise with out a better hand.

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I doubt he'll call without a hand that beats him. 1/2-2/3 max

Re: 5-5NL exremely deep short handed
 

Fold pre.

I kinda like the flop weak lead, it provokes a 2-street bluff from villain fairly often.

Check/call this down after the flop unless you spike the 7. All you really beat is a bluff. No reason to involve those ginormous stacks.

Re: 5-5NL exremely deep short handed
 

450, see what he does

Re: 5-5NL exremely deep short handed
 

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450, see what he does

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What's the logic behind this, exactly?

It blows him off of anything that we beat and there's no way he's folding a better hand. He's probably got two outs if he's behind. I see no value whatsoever in this raise.

Give us a man's kicker and everything changes, of course.

Re: 5-5NL exremely deep short handed
 

i duno how i like the flop lead.. anyways.. i think i go into call down mode, or just hit a 7 on the river and get his stack. holla

Re: 5-5NL exremely deep short handed
 

lol!

Re: 5-5NL exremely deep short handed
 

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450, see what he does

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What's the logic behind this, exactly?

It blows him off of anything that we beat and there's no way he's folding a better hand. He's probably got two outs if he's behind. I see no value whatsoever in this raise.

Give us a man's kicker and everything changes, of course.

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you know, i dont like how tihs was played, but the boldeed statemnt is wrong

Re: 5-5NL exremely deep short handed
 

Hi shag,

4-handed and that deep vs. a tricky LAG, you must AT LEAST CALL PRE-FLOP. So, IMO, your pre-flop play is fine. However, you approached this hand the wrong way on the flop (it appears that you were building a pot), which could make playing the hand in the first place into a costly mistake.

You should play this hand in general like pocket 6s that doesn't really believe him and is calling down. Then, he may convince himself to bet for value with JJ etc.
I think I check the flop almost always, because we know he'll bet, and because we're not looking to build a big pot yet, without much better information. If you strongly suspect an Ace, fold the turn, since you can only beat 4 kickers out of 12, and you are likely to chop with the ones you beat.

Re: 5-5NL exremely deep short handed
 

raise > call....preflop


Also when your deep and playing shorthanded in nl holdem any 2 cards can be profitable if you can outplay your opponent after the flop

Re: 5-5NL exremely deep short handed
 

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Fold preflop. Fold any to flop raise. Fold on the turn.

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Horrible advice. Preflop is pretty borderline and I'd usually fold, but I'm certainly not looking to give up easily when I hit a hand like this.

Re: 5-5NL exremely deep short handed
 

oustanding analysis cero! I agree with everything that he has said here ...

Re: 5-5NL exremely deep short handed
 

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I would fold preflop

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Listen, anybody who says they fold preflop is crazy here. Deep-stacked and short-handed, preflop is much less important than most think. Poker becomes much more rock-paper-scissors where aggressive post-flop play and good diversification of lines to throw off your opponent become key to winning hands moreso than the actual strength of your hand in a vacuum. Those advocating a fold should just pick up and leave, as waiting for great hands to play with while somebody's raising all the time is a good way to get blinded out of a hand and becoming predictable when you finally pick something up. Shorthanded, you just have to be willing to mix it up, get involved in a lot of marginal pots, and count on your ability to outplay your opponent post-flop. A7 definitely has enough playability to warrant at least a call here.

Re: 5-5NL exremely deep short handed
 

the key when playing shorthanded is not to call with more crap hands OOP (I'm looking at you, Ax), it's to raise a lot in position and RERAISE more preflop to make it tougher on your opponents

Re: 5-5NL exremely deep short handed
 

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the key when playing shorthanded is not to call with more crap hands OOP (I'm looking at you, Ax), it's to raise a lot in position and RERAISE more preflop to make it tougher on your opponents

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I agree

(this is cero's post, wanted to get both thoughts in same post)
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Hi shag,

4-handed and that deep vs. a tricky LAG, you must AT LEAST CALL PRE-FLOP. So, IMO, your pre-flop play is fine. However, you approached this hand the wrong way on the flop (it appears that you were building a pot), which could make playing the hand in the first place into a costly mistake.

You should play this hand in general like pocket 6s that doesn't really believe him and is calling down. Then, he may convince himself to bet for value with JJ etc.
I think I check the flop almost always, because we know he'll bet, and because we're not looking to build a big pot yet, without much better information. If you strongly suspect an Ace, fold the turn, since you can only beat 4 kickers out of 12, and you are likely to chop with the ones you beat.

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I dont fully agree, I think playing your hand fast could be a good thing as well in this spot.

Also, folding the turn, especially given villain description (if its somewhat accurate) is not viable.

Folding preflop is an option, by the way, I full agree (stated for emphasis) with what creed says.

Re: 5-5NL exremely deep short handed
 

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the key when playing shorthanded is not to call with more crap hands OOP (I'm looking at you, Ax), it's to raise a lot in position and RERAISE more preflop to make it tougher on your opponents

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I agree...that's why I said A7 warrants at least a call. Reraising a lot and making it tough on your opponents definitely goes in the "get involved in a lot of pots with marginal hands and trust your postflop play to win with relatively weaker holdings" category.

FWIW, in position I think A7 is not that bad a hand to just call with shorthanded against a very aggressive player. OOP it's normally a reraise unless he's been slowing down post-flop when called in which case I might call sometimes with Ax.

Re: 5-5NL exremely deep short handed
 

Ok... So I called the turn bet. A 4 came on the river and I paid off a $300 bet. Villain had 105o. I know the villain is capable of a 3 barrel. I know he can have a hand as crappy as 105o, I also know he probably folds to a substantial raise with this hand on the turn. The reason I posted this hand was to get some input on some things, some of which have been addressed to some degree. I have no problem with my preflop play.

This guy is most difficult to play against. He plays 105o that missed the same way he plays a monster hand that hit a monster flop. Should I be 3-betting the flop against a guy like this? Lead or c/r the turn? check/fold the river even though I know he makes this bluff? I know he lays down his draws if I price him out. I could just c/r the turn to like 400 and show him an ace and he will fold unless he's priced in or already is beating me. I don't know...

Re: 5-5NL exremely deep short handed
 

the only reason to 3bet the flop or checkraise the turn is to find out where you stand so you can checkfold the river rather than pay off a big bet. you shouldnt be trying to build a pot in this scenario unless you know villain will pay you off with a pocket pair. youre much better off trying to let him bluff you off your hand. i dont really like the flop lead but i guess its ok if you think itll make villain think you dont have an ace.

Re: 5-5NL exremely deep short handed
 

Against a tough, aggressive opponent I call with A-high (and probably K-high) if we're deep and popping him back pre-flop if not. Anyone who advocates folding pre-flop probably doesn't play very well short-handed.

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Lead or c/r the turn?

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....

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I know he can have a hand as crappy as 105o, I also know he probably folds to a substantial raise with this hand on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ] ... answers that, no?

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check/fold the river even though I know he makes this bluff?

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A lot of good full-ring players get crushed playing LAG's short-handed precisely because of that thinking. They go into a defensive mode with the idea that "I'm going to wait for the nuts, then catch him bluffing!!" It doesn't happen like that. The key is to make precisely these kinds of calls... and I don't think this hand is even that tough. If you had Ace-high, it wouldn't been a lot more interesting, imo.

Re: 5-5NL exremely deep short handed
 

creedofhubris said it spot on.

im shocked by players not being able to adapt to different playing styles. You have to play with position against LAGs and you have to be reraising a lot to get them to make -EV individual mistakes by calling when behind due to the pots odds they are recieving - this is a fundamental concept of how to win at poker.

Im folding A7 preflop out of position but reraising to 80-90 with position.

As for board im check-calling down.

What is the point in calling preflop with A7 if your only looking to hit 2 pair of trip 7s. It would certainly be a -EV call by doing so.

Re: 5-5NL exremely deep short handed
 

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What is the point in calling preflop with A7 if your only looking to hit 2 pair of trip 7s. It would certainly be a -EV call by doing so.

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Back to what I said - waiting for the "nuts" to make a play. I will reiterate: it's a bad policy to do that vs good LAGs in short-handed games. I am not calling pre-flop w/ A7 to hit trips, I'm calling because I know Villain is raising light and my A7o is probably the best hand... which I'm playing as such by either leading, or check-raising any flop.

For the record, that type of mentality is why I love short-handed games vs average opponents.

Kirk

Re: 5-5NL exremely deep short handed
 

Back to what I said - waiting for the "nuts" to make a play. I will reiterate: it's a bad policy to do that vs good LAGs in short-handed games. I am not calling pre-flop w/ A7 to hit trips, I'm calling because I know Villain is raising light and my A7o is probably the best hand... which I'm playing as such by either leading, or check-raising any flop.

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I would rather play 87 instead of A7
You right you might have the best hand,but what are u gonna do,when the flop dosn"t hit.
You will lead,opponents is smart,and aggrasive,he can float the flop,putting you into harder decition on the turn.
You gonna checkraise,and build huge pot oop with nothing.
Again putting you in tough spot on the turn.
The key in short handed Nl is to make your opponent make tough spots.
There is no value playig A7 oop,because like I stated before there is very few good flops for A7.
Give me position,and I will play.

Re: 5-5NL exremely deep short handed
 

Call, lead any river for 250-300 and fold to a raise (except, 2, 3 or 7). If you spike the 7, go for a c/r.

Re: 5-5NL exremely deep short handed
 

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Against a tough, aggressive opponent I call with A-high (and probably K-high) if we're deep and popping him back pre-flop if not.

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You've got to be kidding, dude. Coming over the top with king-high out of position? Routinely? With shallow stacks?

After about the second time you pull this, this is how that will go down : villain opens, hero reraises. Villain calls. Hero bets flop. Villain pushes. Hero folds. The End.

Your overall success depends on how much you steal before villain takes a stand. But you can't afford to do this much before villain's routinely going to be calling your reraises in position with better hands than yours for big pots, which is a bad place to be.