Barf
 

No reads. Villain seems solid, hasn't done anything out of the ordinary and has a good sized stack. 3 bet turn? Check call river? Bigger river bet then fold?

Sooooo ruuuusty.




Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

Button ($3844)
Hero ($2706)
BB ($1970)
UTG ($2200)
MP ($7063.01)
CO ($3089.51)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $10.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls $20, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero (poster) completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($60) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $45</font>, BB folds, MP calls $45.

Turn: ($150) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $125</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to $250</font>, Hero calls $125.

River: ($650) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

I bet 450, Villain pushes (just under 2k more to me).

Re: Barf
 

I'm definately check-raising river here.

Re: Barf
 

ehh? You have the second nutz.

Re: Barf
 

Check-raising is the worst line in this spot. You give a chance for worse hands to fold and better one to call.

Re: Barf
 

w/out a read I probably call this...

I wouldn't check-raise river here because those bets are used for a cheap showdown a lot of times (at least in my experience).

I don't mind the call on the turn, but I will be 3-betting this some of the time depending on the opponent and our past history.

I'm assuming you lost to like KTh cause you posted...

Re: Barf
 

3rd nuts.

2h 5h.

Re: Barf
 

If he is "solid," I doubt he's shoving in here with a 10 high flush or worse. The min turn raise could mean anything with the flush card but with a shove in the end, it screams a monster. I'm guessing 65% K9, 20% Kxh, 5% 2h5h and 10% bluff (Harrington's Law).

Re: Barf
 

You're kidding me right jamazon? You think a lower flush is often folding to a c/r on river? As played, I'm definately calling river here, if he's got the king (or a silly straightflush) he's just gonna have to show it. Only reason to not 3-bet turn if we don't have any reason to suspect he's ever bluffing with that minraise, and instead choose to stop-and-go is that it's much more likely that an A-pair type of hand will pay off you that way. So, if we suspect it's a cheap showdown play, it's definately better to call and fire river.

But, as played, without reads, I'm gonna let him fire river as well if he's bluffing and c/r, since I'm looking to maximize my value versus a flush here, and if he did get some kind of strange straight on turn he's definately gonna fire river again if checked to given action so we don't loose value from that either by checking and not betting.

Re: Barf
 

Yup. I call thinking "does he ever NOT have KThh here?". Just wanted to make sure I wasn't going insane, because his bet is pretty big, and his line is very indicative of a monster.

Re: Barf
 

he def does not always have KThh. sometimes he has 25hh.

Re: Barf
 

[ QUOTE ]
You're kidding me right jamazon? You think a lower flush is often folding to a c/r on river? As played, I'm definately calling river here, if he's got the king (or a silly straightflush) he's just gonna have to show it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't play this high and don't want to say what my plan would be without knowing how this game plays, but I can't imagine that you are happy *at all* with 2500 going in on this river when he has to be doing this with T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] x [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or worse.

Re: Barf
 

Obviously you are never happy at all doing it, but if you're betting and not folding to an allin anyway, a check/raise is most likely better since if he does have a smaller flush he'll probably just call river, by check-raising you at least put him in a tough position. (We are now disregarding the "cheap showdownplay" that you would get most value out of by taking the line OP did) And, add to that, the times he's on a bluff you gain the maximum, and the times he's on a straight you at least don't lose any value since he would only call your bet (at most), and definately will bet if you check. If we do intend to ever fold here without a read, then it's of course entirely different. Of course, given the action in the hand, I expect us to see KThh a lot of the time when he pushes river, but I don't think you can ever fold without reads here anyway.

Re: Barf
 

BBV?

Re: Barf
 

Yeah. My *plan* was to make my bet big enough to get value out of worse hands and let myself drop it if I got raised. But I've forgotten how to follow my plans. I wanted to make my river bet big enough to get max value, but no big that I would feel committed. Funnily enough I probably made my bet a little smaller than optimal and paid off anyway.

Re: Barf
 

Are people really folding this river here? Wow.

Just don't let Villain know what you layed down if so.

Re: Barf
 

[ QUOTE ]
Are people really folding this river here? Wow.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's 10/20 and villain is "solid" with a 7K stack. This isn't a donkfest tournament where you call and see 2 pair.

I dunno, is there a 40% chance he likes going nuts with T9h?

Re: Barf
 

[ QUOTE ]
with a 7K stack

[/ QUOTE ]

How is this relevant?

[ QUOTE ]
I dunno, is there a 40% chance he likes going nuts with T9h?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, because I think K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] does not open-limp PF tht often. I think a smaller suited connector is much more likely.

Re: Barf
 

yup: http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i2...alPat/52hh.jpg

Re: Barf
 

Because he got it somehow.

Re: Barf
 

[ QUOTE ]
Because he got it somehow.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK. I'll keep pressing this then.

What does the fact that "he got a 7K stack somehow" mean? Does it mean he's a great player? TAG? LAG?

Let's not draw conclusions from partial evidence.

Re: Barf
 

[ QUOTE ]
How is this relevant?

[/ QUOTE ]

"He got it somehow" is right. He's solid and likes long sessions where he stacks 2.5 people. If he pushed with 2 pair he wouldn't have 7K.

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, because I think K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] does not open-limp PF tht often. I think a smaller suited connector is much more likely.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think you get that from villain's perspective, pushing something like 87h is almost a bluff.

Re: Barf
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How is this relevant?

[/ QUOTE ]

"He got it somehow" is right. He's solid and likes long sessions where he stacks 2.5 people. If he pushed with 2 pair he wouldn't have 7K.

[/ QUOTE ]

Come on, adanthar. I've seen the donkiest of the donkeys sporting 7K stacks. Unless we know he has been playing a really long session where he stacked lots of people with the nuts, I think you are concluding a bit too much from his stack size. Are you also telling me that people who are willing to bluff on this river never amass 4xBI stacks?

Re: Barf
 

Kramer,

-"solid"
-7K
-calls the flop, minraises the turn, pushes to a 2/3ish bet on the river
-Hero has bet, bet/called, bet so far

I know you are looking for reasons to call, but a "solid" 10/20 regular is going to be "out of the ordinary" when he pushes a weak flush (vs an unknown) because, well, he can read hands.

Re: Barf
 

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Barf
 

adanthar -

Good points. I guess it's this

[ QUOTE ]
-"solid"

[/ QUOTE ]

where I still question the validity. How vetted is this obervation? Do we know this guy? Have stats on him? And how long have we actually seen him "do nothing out of the ordinary?"

Re: Barf
 

I think I have to repeat that I have no idea whether I would call this or not and it would depend on how the game was playing - for all I know bluffing this is standard.

If it's not a bluff, though, he is a moron or has the nuts.

Re: Barf
 

In this particular hand, Hero has decided that he's going to the felt no matter what. So our next concern is how to get it all in when he's ahead to offset the times that he's toasted. Which line do you think has a higher chance of accomplishing this goal?

Check-raise to a huge overbet at the river on a flush possible board after calling a turn min raise or use a blocking bet that indicates weakness so the aggressor can follow through with his aggression?

I must note that if Villian loves his lower flush enough to call that huge check-raise, there's at least 55% he will raise the blocking bet.

Re: Barf
 

Don't go broke in an unraised pot.

Re: Barf
 

[ QUOTE ]
Don't go broke in an unraised pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate this statement. Mostly because just about no one uses it correctly.

Re: Barf
 

Chaos,

I'm with Adanthar on this one. Unless villian has shown river bluffs or tendencies to overplay hands this is a fold.

That fact that you have the J and Q is significant

I like a check on riv and depending on villians bet-raise or call

Re: Barf
 

Jamazon: I despise the idea of blocking bets alltogether basically, so it's not surprising we're not on the same line. You cannot compare him calling a checkraise with a flush here to him raising a "block bet" on the river; the two concepts are not exactly two sides of the same coin at all.

Now, in retrospect, when OP explained that the idea was to bet and fold to a push, everything obviously changes.

Re: Barf
 

[ QUOTE ]

I like a check on riv and depending on villians bet-raise or call

[/ QUOTE ]

this is results oriented. to not bet this river IMO would be absolutely criminal.

i probably bet the river a little more - thinking full pot. as played though, i like a fold though i don't know if i'd be good enough to do it. if i bet full pot and got raised, it would be much much easier to let it go.

Re: Barf
 

Chaos,

"No reads. Villain seems solid, hasn't done anything out of the ordinary and has a good sized stack. 3 bet turn? Check call river? Bigger river bet then fold?"

Correlation of villain being up +3buyins with being a good player is incorrect.
The turn min-raise is not indicative of a solid player.

Now we go that out of the way, solid players don't limp in the CO w/ big hearts as mentioned. What range of hands is he limping with that you’re behind? After this hand, did the CO s/d any hands he limped with?

What does 3-betting the turn accomplish? I'm assuming you'd like to do that because your hand is good. Villain pushes over your river bet and now you’re concerned with your hand being good? This seems inconsistent to me.

Check/calling river leaves money on the table after villain expresses interest in the hand. Don’t give villain credit for being ‘solid’ here after his actions simply from this hand and without reads. Call here and move on.

Re: Barf
 

omg call

Re: Barf
 

150bb isn't deep enough to warrant a fold.

Re: Barf
 

The real problem here is that you've got both the jack and the queen. With Qx it's an easier call since there's a better hand left for him to overplay.

Re: Barf
 

[ QUOTE ]
The real problem here is that you've got both the jack and the queen. With Qx it's an easier call since there's a better hand left for him to overplay.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. Honestly, if there's ever a time to fold the 2nd nuts (which there is) it's here. Solid players simply do not push their low flushes anywhere nearly often enough to justify a call here. ALL the evidence is that you're behind-you got minraised on the turn, stop and go'd, and still got raised big. When you've essentially got the 2nd nuts and you've been betting like it and your opponent still doesn't care, it's time to reconsider whether your hand is good. I think that too often people look for excuses to call with very strong holdings convincing themselves that their opponents' ranges are much wider than they are.

Re: Barf
 

[ QUOTE ]
The real problem here is that you've got both the jack and the queen. With Qx it's an easier call since there's a better hand left for him to overplay.

[/ QUOTE ]

yup maybe he has something like kh6h. Actually I wouldn't call the turn raise I'd put in another raise, as I've seen too many people get attached to AxKh. But as played it looks like a fold

Re: Barf
 

I hate check raising the river, you have a good line and pay him off.

Re: Barf
 

I don't think I could fold this personally.