common situation that i f\'ed up royally
 

i posted this in SSNL but they all wrote "lol omg wtf you suck" and offered no help, so i'm posting this here even though it's a micro limit level situation

no read

i guess ignore preflop unless you don't think it's bad

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

BB ($120)
UTG ($549)
MP ($207.79)
Button ($297.06)
Hero ($744.11)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $3.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to $12</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero (poster) calls $9, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: ($30) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets $28.5</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $100</font>, MP calls $167.29 (All-In), Hero calls $95.79

Re: common situation that i f\'ed up royally
 

fold preflop

Re: common situation that i f\'ed up royally
 

PF is fine - I treat min-raises as limps - sometimes call, sometimes re-raise.

As for post-flop, I never give short stacks any credit either, so I can see going to the felt with this hand.

If he is rational though, when he 3-bets all in, you are certanly behind or he is drawing very live. If you want to give yourself a chance to get away, I lead flop instead, folding to a raise.

D

Re: common situation that i f\'ed up royally
 

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fold preflop

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i guess ignore preflop unless you don't think it's bad

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fwiw if i knew how to play this game i think i could turn a profit with this hand. i know i'm completely clueless in NL, but i sense a lack of creativity around here.

Re: common situation that i f\'ed up royally
 

Can't analyze this hand ignoring your awful call out of position pre-flop. This is where you got yourself into trouble. Once you get to the flop I much prefer betting out and folding to a raise, or check calling and then leading turn and folding to a raise.

Re: common situation that i f\'ed up royally
 

a c/r on the flop basically shuts out all hands you beat, except for a few that are probably drawing very live.

consider c/calling flop. easiest play would be to lead it, but i like c/calling here bettter

Re: common situation that i f\'ed up royally
 

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Can't analyze this hand ignoring your awful call out of position pre-flop. This is where you got yourself into trouble. Once you get to the flop I much prefer betting out and folding to a raise, or check calling and then leading turn and folding to a raise.

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the first makes some sense, but my issue with the second is he's so short stacked, the same thing will happen. i'll end up putting so much in that i'll be committed to the pot. but bet-fold seems pretty effective. how do short stacks typically respond to this? are they more conservative, or are htey more eager to shove it all in? obviously it depends on the player but do they have a specific tendency?

Re: common situation that i f\'ed up royally
 

[ QUOTE ]
a c/r on the flop basically shuts out all hands you beat, except for a few that are probably drawing very live.

consider c/calling flop. easiest play would be to lead it, but i like c/calling here bettter

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ok so i check call flop and the pot is 90. he has 165 left. do i now check-fold?

Re: common situation that i f\'ed up royally
 

I'm not sure about what the shorties are like at the 600, but I usually find once a player with a third of a stack raises preflop and then get action on the flop they are going to the felt with AK high. The only thing to be wary of here is the minraise. It indicates he wants some callers. This means he probably has a mid to high PP. I think bet folding is correct here.

Re: common situation that i f\'ed up royally
 

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I usually find once a player with a third of a stack raises preflop and then get action on the flop they are going to the felt with AK high.

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isn't that a reason to call preflop?

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The only thing to be wary of here is the minraise

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i don't think much of the minraise. some people just habitually do it. i guess i should start noticing what people usually raise

Re: common situation that i f\'ed up royally
 

Pfreflop I disagree, but I know many LAG's at 1K that limp called my pfr with J8s or A5s (lolotrickedu used to do it to me all the time, if say 2 limpers and I bumped in on the button)

As far as flop, I really doubt you're ahead. I like a ck/call on flop, then lead a safe turn, or ck again and let him keep bluffing his overs. Ck/raise I think you have to fold to a 3 bet, unless there is history. Leading on flop is "meh" imo, maybe lead, call, or lead fold, then evaluate on turn if you get there.

Re: common situation that i f\'ed up royally
 

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a c/r on the flop basically shuts out all hands you beat, except for a few that are probably drawing very live.

consider c/calling flop. easiest play would be to lead it, but i like c/calling here bettter

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ok so i check call flop and the pot is 90. he has 165 left. do i now check-fold?

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no, of course not. lead most turns.

Re: common situation that i f\'ed up royally
 

Oh yea...I always call this preflop...I wasn't disagreeing with ya there. I wasjust saying what my impression of shortstacked players was.

Re: common situation that i f\'ed up royally
 

I know you said ignore preflop, but I used to make these calls verse shortstacks.

These are the problem that I saw:
-Your odds to hit 2 pair just aren't worth it to call with his stack.
-If you get a flush draw, then he's probably going to pound the pot and you probably won't have implied odds to call.
-If you happen to flush the flop, then he's probably backing off unless he's holding the Ace.
-You have to be willing to go to SD if your jack pairs and thats not a good long term play.

Once I started to punish the stortstacks for CALLING me (not me calling them) my game improved exponentially.

Re: common situation that i f\'ed up royally
 

Also, i'd only raise it to $75, this still gives you a chance to get out if he decides to push.

Re: common situation that i f\'ed up royally
 

This is probably not a call you should be making pre-flop. He only has 30 BBs. You will never know where you are at when you hit a pair. There's no good line here because you shouldn't have called in the first place.

If I did call this not noticing his stack size, I would lead at the flop and fold to a raise. If he called I'd put him on high cards and dump the rest in on the turn if no A or K came.

Re: common situation that i f\'ed up royally
 

Josh,

For 1.5 BBs getting decent pot odds (especially when BB calls, too, as he often willl, I don't hate the PF call. I love trying to bust short stacks, and have had fairly good success with it.

Flop play, however, is not good.

As yves said, c/r blows off almost every hand that you beat, and nothing that beats you. Furthermore, it basically pot commits you. I'm usually c/cing the flop, and either c/ring or c/fing a blank, depending on feel. I like c/r on the turn because he will be completely pot committed, and you can get a feel for where you're at. If he checks behind, you're good like every time.

Either c/c or bet a blank river.

Re: common situation that i f\'ed up royally
 

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fold preflop

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Re: common situation that i f\'ed up royally
 

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As yves said, c/r blows off almost every hand that you beat, and nothing that beats you. Furthermore, it basically pot commits you. I'm usually c/cing the flop, and either c/ring or c/fing a blank, depending on feel. I like c/r on the turn because he will be completely pot committed, and you can get a feel for where you're at. If he checks behind, you're good like every time.

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[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] I knew there was a way to play this hand.

Re: common situation that i f\'ed up royally
 

Josh,

This is why stack sizes are of great importance in NL Hold Em.

Ness

Re: common situation that i f\'ed up royally
 

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fold preflop

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i guess ignore preflop unless you don't think it's bad

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fwiw if i knew how to play this game i think i could turn a profit with this hand. i know i'm completely clueless in NL, but i sense a lack of creativity around here.

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I agree that creativity is important, but playing suited connectors out of position is not profitable for even the best of players. True at this level you may beable to turn a small profit but once you more to where your opponents are decent playing crap like this out of position is going to cost you alot. On the button, a call is still marginal but defenitly something that I would do on occasion to mix up my game. I think you may underestimate the value of position in no limit holdem.

Edit: Didn't see that it was a minraise, but hopefully you can apply my comments to a 3xBB+ raise and gain something from them. I also fold to a min raise OOP unless I have a good read on my opponent, but calling a minraise would be ok if he had a fullstack, but short it just isn't going to be profitable.

Re: common situation that i f\'ed up royally
 

josh,

i just wanted to say how much better your current avatar is, than the one you had years ago of the guy with crack on his lips.

Re: common situation that i f\'ed up royally
 

josh, i was just wondering what's up with all the limit players that has arrived recently. is it just a coincidence or did everyone get convinced by the sick graphs NL-guys post in BBV?

Re: common situation that i f\'ed up royally
 

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[ QUOTE ]
a c/r on the flop basically shuts out all hands you beat, except for a few that are probably drawing very live.

consider c/calling flop. easiest play would be to lead it, but i like c/calling here bettter

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ok so i check call flop and the pot is 90. he has 165 left. do i now check-fold?

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depends on the turn. sometimes ill bet out a heart. a blank ill probably check. if its a J or an 8 i might lead weak. sometimes i check-fold an A or a K.

Re: common situation that i f\'ed up royally
 

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i sense a lack of creativity around here.

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Josh: how creative can we get with 33bb OOP with a suited 2 gapper.

As for the hand, its a crappy spot. I think I like check call on flop as well and probably cr turn.

-Mike

Re: common situation that i f\'ed up royally
 

hi josh p,

i know i am guilty of making this call preflop cuz seeing flops is fun, but you ought to fold, even if it is a stupid little minraise.

i would checkcall the flop and lead out most turns.

once you checkraise to 100 on this flop obviously you see it all the way through.

Re: common situation that i f\'ed up royally
 

Josh,

You seem to be clutching to 'creativity' in this NL game. Since limit was such a grind, I think you're latching on this chance to be different and enterprising, thinking its your chance to show the world or something.

Thats all well and good, but honestly, play cookie cutter poker now and worry about that later. And if you're going to be creative, float or something, not this.

Re: common situation that i f\'ed up royally
 

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Josh,

You seem to be clutching to 'creativity' in this NL game. Since limit was such a grind, I think you're latching on this chance to be different and enterprising, thinking its your chance to show the world or something.

Thats all well and good, but honestly, play cookie cutter poker now and worry about that later. And if you're going to be creative, float or something, not this.

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first of all, sorry that all my threads are bumped up. but ty chris l. for helping.

also, i don't agree with the first paragraph. i was a very creative limit player, because i knew my fundamentals and was a great hand and board reader. i think my problem is i try to do unconventional stuff since i was so used to doing it in limit. but i've gotten a lot better at NL. sticking more to the basics for now, though. interestingly though, some of the unconventional limit stuff like when to not continuation bet on the flop and tricky check-behinds/slowplays are commonplace in NL and seem to be very important. it's just the checkraising that i had to cut out a lot.

the most interesting difference i've found between limit and no limit is that in NL you have to really work and think hard at making your opponents make mistakes, and the types of mistakes are all different. at limit, you make a read and play accordingly. it seems like at NL, there are several +EV ways to play a hand, whereas in limit there's usually one clearly best play, or several mediocre options (and play in those mediocre situations is a huge factor in success).

i know no one cares. i have no blog so i write down my feelings on stuff here

Re: common situation that i f\'ed up royally
 

Hi Josh,

What was the reason you didn't believe his c/r on the flop?

what did you consider his range raising preflop? Do you really rule out 99+ that easy?

Also: I can understand you're playing this hand PF and take a shot, although its tough to play this drawing hand OOP.

I think you would need a better flop to push this so hard. (unless you would have a real good read on vilain?)