My TT needs serious help, when to slow down?
 

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (4.40 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls.

Turn: (4.20 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

River: (6.20 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

Final Pot: 8.20 BB

This is an on going problem for me. I don't know how to put the brakes on with my TT and it's costing me a lot of BBs.

Give it up on the turn?

HALP MEH!!!

Re: My TT needs serious help, when to slow down?
 

i have he same problem :&lt;

Re: My TT needs serious help, when to slow down?
 

if you want a showdown after this flop, and I would, I wouldn't raise it. Just keep calling and bet if he checks to you.

Re: My TT needs serious help, when to slow down?
 

Not sure if this is correct advice. But after you have rasied pre flop. for BB to come betting to you he must have something. However i would rasie him and fold to a 3 bet.

I think after he checks to you I would bet.

On the river take the free showdown

Re: My TT needs serious help, when to slow down?
 

I guess you lost this hand since you posted it, but there isn't much wrong with it, IMO. I wouldn't be surprised if he is calling you down with a 9, or a 5.

I probably would have checked behind on the river, but I do that too much.

KO

Re: My TT needs serious help, when to slow down?
 

So I'm guessing my error started on the Turn, and then I made it again on the River.

Re: My TT needs serious help, when to slow down?
 

I'd have played this like you did. I would have slowed down only if I was re-raised on the flop. BB's flop bet and call looks to me like they've paired the 9 or 3 with their Ax, or are chasing overcards. Because you phrased this like a problem, I'm guessing that villain showed 99 or 33.

Re: My TT needs serious help, when to slow down?
 

JQ actually:(

Re: My TT needs serious help, when to slow down?
 

[ QUOTE ]
JQ actually:(

[/ QUOTE ]

Thought as much. Would of been surpirsed if didn't have the J.

Re: My TT needs serious help, when to slow down?
 

Love the avatar by the way.

Re: My TT needs serious help, when to slow down?
 

(grunching) I have the same inclinations as you (see my post on middle pair kings), but I try to follow Ed Miller's advice on page 122 of SSH:

"Play these hands under one of two circumstances:
1. No one has shown much strength, so you might have the best hand
2. The pot is large, and you are drawing to a probable winner"

With the villian flop best, criteria 1 was violated. For criteria 2, you only had a backdoor straight and the pot was small, so that is violated as well.

I would have given up on the flop. However, if you did call, the turn bet is certainly incorrect.

Re: My TT needs serious help, when to slow down?
 

This doesn't look bad to me. I probably would have played it the same, although depending on villain, calling the flop is OK. But against typically loose opponents at this limit, this is a good line.

How may TT hands have you played? What's your win%? If the sample size is small, maybe you're just running bad. Filter out all your TT hands in PT and replay them.

jkd

Re: My TT needs serious help, when to slow down?
 

[ QUOTE ]
(grunching) I have the same inclinations as you (see my post on middle pair kings), but I try to follow Ed Miller's advice on page 122 of SSH:

"Play these hands under one of two circumstances:
1. No one has shown much strength, so you might have the best hand
2. The pot is large, and you are drawing to a probable winner"

With the villian flop best, criteria 1 was violated. For criteria 2, you only had a backdoor straight and the pot was small, so that is violated as well.

I would have given up on the flop. However, if you did call, the turn bet is certainly incorrect.

[/ QUOTE ]

Careful about context here, though.

The beginning of that chapter says 'For each example assume you are in a multi-way pot' (p.114) with a footnote that specifically says Heads-up and short-handed are different.

This is not a multiway pot. Heads-up, with a blind in the hand there is no reason to assume he has a Jack immediately, and depending on his aggression factor may be trying to push a possible over-call hand off.

When he calls the turn, you know that's not the case. He made some part of it on the flop, and since he bet out I'd bet it was the J.

But you'll see a 9, or even a 5 call this down just in case they think you have AK, or AQ.

KO

Re: My TT needs serious help, when to slow down?
 

Times: 30
Win %: 56.67
Net: 3.35
Avg/Hand: .11
BB/Hand: .70
Blind: 11
CCPF: 2
VP$IP: 100.0
W$WSF: 53.57
PFR%: 100%
RFI: 20%
LwPC: 0.00
WtSD: 67.86
W$SD: 52.63

Imo my win % numbers need to be higher. (Sorry about the long line of text, I'll take a SS once I have PSP re-installed.)

Re: My TT needs serious help, when to slow down?
 

I like a check behind on the river, other than that I think you played it perfect.

Re: My TT needs serious help, when to slow down?
 

why does everyone like the flop raise so much?

Re: My TT needs serious help, when to slow down?
 

[ QUOTE ]
why does everyone like the flop raise so much?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because it can either make the 9 or 5 fold, or put the 9 or 5 on the defense so that you can control the next two rounds. It will also put the J into a more passive mode since he could think he is outkicked or against an overpair/set so you put one more SB in in order to check the rest of the hand depending on what your read is. At least that is my guess.

That was my intent of the raise at least, and to also find out if he had a J or not. It's just that I kept betting for an unknown reason. Thus the creation of this post:P

Re: My TT needs serious help, when to slow down?
 

[ QUOTE ]
why does everyone like the flop raise so much?


[/ QUOTE ]

against most donks the raise slows them up, so they tend to check to us, like villian did here, that way we always have the option to bet or check, vs just an option to call. Also he could be donking with a 9 or a 3 or [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]'s, meaning we have the best hand.

Re: My TT needs serious help, when to slow down?
 

Thanks KO, that's very helpful.

Re: My TT needs serious help, when to slow down?
 

If the raise folds 9x hands, I really don't think we want to raise. It also folds lower pocket pairs that we have crushed.

And the "slow them down" notion doesnt really make sense to me. If he has the best hand, we don't want to be raising him, period. It's certainly not right to justify it by saying it gives us more peace of mind

Re: My TT needs serious help, when to slow down?
 

I don't really think this hand is bad. With the board as it is I'd definitely want to have a showdown. The flop raise is fine, but I might take the free turn card, expecting to call villains river bet; I don't think we win enough here to be betting for value.

I'd be more interested in seeing how you play TT on a board with A or K, and how you play it on a board where you have an overpair on the flop. Are you at least breaking even with TT?

Re: My TT needs serious help, when to slow down?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If the raise folds 9x hands, I really don't think we want to raise. It also folds lower pocket pairs that we have crushed.

And the "slow them down" notion doesnt really make sense to me. If he has the best hand, we don't want to be raising him, period. It's certainly not right to justify it by saying it gives us more peace of mind



[/ QUOTE ]

I'm guessing he is not going to fold if he has a peice of the board or a pp, so if he has a 3, a 9, or a flush draw, I like a raise.

If he happens to have a J, then we get the option to check thru the river, I like having that option. If we just call, call, call, we lose more if behind, and we give him a chance for over cards to come.

that gives me peace of mind.

Re: My TT needs serious help, when to slow down?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If the raise folds 9x hands, I really don't think we want to raise. It also folds lower pocket pairs that we have crushed.

And the "slow them down" notion doesnt really make sense to me. If he has the best hand, we don't want to be raising him, period. It's certainly not right to justify it by saying it gives us more peace of mind

[/ QUOTE ]

A raise on the flop is only one small bet. It will usually slow him down on the later rounds where there are Big Bets because then he knows he is likely to face a raise.

Re: My TT needs serious help, when to slow down?
 

rich -

again, this is completely arbitrary. It's nice when we get him to check into us, but don't forget the times when he three bets this flop or calls the flop and c/raised the turn.

Re: My TT needs serious help, when to slow down?
 

What would you guys do if villian donks the river?

Re: My TT needs serious help, when to slow down?
 

easy call

Re: My TT needs serious help, when to slow down?
 

Your play on the flop and turn are good. I would check behind on the river...take the free showdown that your earned on the turn.

Betting the turn and checking the river is better than checking the turn and calling the river...because he may fold the turn.

Re: My TT needs serious help, when to slow down?
 

[ QUOTE ]
easy call

[/ QUOTE ]

Cool, what about a flop 3-bet followed by a turn bet (whether or not hero caps the flop)?

Re: My TT needs serious help, when to slow down?
 

If he three bets the flop, hero is basically only going to the turn to see the scenery.

If he's the type of villain who will three bet MP or an OESD, hero would know it. Since he isn't striking as such, we're nearly always screwed.

Re: My TT needs serious help, when to slow down?
 

easy river check behind when the flush comes in

Re: My TT needs serious help, when to slow down?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Your play on the flop and turn are good. I would check behind on the river...take the free showdown that your earned on the turn.

Betting the turn and checking the river is better than checking the turn and calling the river...because he may fold the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

sorry just wanted to add i agree with this

but also betting the turn is good because you have the chance to equity pump against his draws and get him to peel one off with TQ or 2 diamonds.

basically if he is drawing he is more likely to correctly call on the turn than bluff the river

Re: My TT needs serious help, when to slow down?
 

I had another hand similar to this later today. I must say this post helped tremendously. I Raised the flop better again and he checked the turn to me, which I checked through. I in fact was behind but luckily I spiked a Ten on the river to win the pot.

I'm just torn between when to bet the turn UI and when to check the turn UI.