Guide for playing 99-QQ
 

Could someone please give me a link to/provde me witha guide for playing these hands, on PokerTracker, theyre the hands I lose most money on

Thanks

Re: Guide for playing 99-QQ
 

Fold preflop?

Re: Guide for playing 99-QQ
 

Definitely fold preflop. Personally I only play AA KK and AK, but wont raise AK.

Re: Guide for playing 99-QQ
 

deaders: you cant be serious....

OP: the best strat is to flop a set, it works pretty well, you should try it.

Re: Guide for playing 99-QQ
 

[ QUOTE ]
Definitely fold preflop. Personally I only play AA KK and AK, but wont raise AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

Limp-reraise AK right?

Re: Guide for playing 99-QQ
 

[ QUOTE ]

OP: the best strat is to flop a set, it works pretty well, you should try it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Except you must probably fold bottom set, or top set on monontone flops against the preflop raiser.

Re: Guide for playing 99-QQ
 

Lol

I should have just phrased the original post as "Take the piss out of me"

In all seriousness though, I suck with them

Re: Guide for playing 99-QQ
 

fold pre-flop??? wtf?? im open pushing pre-flop all day long

Re: Guide for playing 99-QQ
 

More info please OP. How are you currently playing these hands? Are you raising any position? Only calling if you have multiple callers in front? Say you have 10s and the flop comes Q73 rainbow, how do you usually act?

Re: Guide for playing 99-QQ
 

Ok

Normally, I'll raise a standard amount (4xBB, plus 1xBB for every limper), and then i'll typically have 2+ callers.

However, I have problems regarding what to do if another player has already made this sort of raise and I'm either LP or in the blinds, do I call or re-raise here?

If the flop is horrible, I immediately give up the hand with that many callers (e.g. AJJ), but if only one overcard comes (like in your example), I'll proceed cautiously, and will probably fold under any real pressure/shut down on the turn if my flop bet is called usually.

I really have problesm with these situations though:

e.g. UTG+1 raises 5xBB, I call in the BB with 1010, I am reguklarly clueless on the flop. This is a huge hole in my game, and I wa sjust wondering if anyone could help me?

Re: Guide for playing 99-QQ
 

With medium pocket pairs against a raise, the common adage is "no set no bet" (with the exception of maybe picking off a bluff on the river after it's been checked through a few times).

If you're the one making the preflop raise, I like to keep the pressure on with a c-bet on the river and maybe fire again the turn if the flop was draw-filled.

Re: Guide for playing 99-QQ
 

[ QUOTE ]

e.g. UTG+1 raises 5xBB, I call in the BB with 1010, I am reguklarly clueless on the flop. This is a huge hole in my game, and I wa sjust wondering if anyone could help me?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are out of position, so you should be careful. If one or more overcards flop, you can safely check/fold.

But in any case, it depends on your opponent. Does he have a small raising range, or could he raise a lot of hands UTG? If he raises a lot, you could consider reraising him (for fold equity and because you have the best hand). Or if you call, an overpair is probably the best hand. If he's very tight, call and hope to flop a set.

If your opponent is very tight UTG, and you flop an overpair, you still have a pretty weak hand because your opponetn has JJ+ fairly often.

Re: Guide for playing 99-QQ
 

caveat: assuming 6-max. This is General advice - there is no really good general advice about poker *everything depends*

[ QUOTE ]

Normally, I'll raise a standard amount (4xBB, plus 1xBB for every limper), and then i'll typically have 2+ callers

[/ QUOTE ]

in this case adjust to the table conditions - raise 6BB or more if you have to to narrow the field to HU. Preflop ANY pp is almost always the best hand at the table - don't be afraid to raise for value.

Apres flop hit villain with standard 2/3-potsized CB/Value bet depending on the texture of the board.

[ QUOTE ]

However, I have problems regarding what to do if another player has already made this sort of raise and I'm either LP or in the blinds, do I call or re-raise here?


[/ QUOTE ]

LP re-raise everytime (you likely have the best hand!) Blinds call and play for set value only.

[ QUOTE ]

If the flop is horrible, I immediately give up the hand with that many callers (e.g. AJJ), but if only one overcard comes (like in your example), I'll proceed cautiously, and will probably fold under any real pressure/shut down on the turn if my flop bet is called usually.


[/ QUOTE ]

you aren't Cbetting at more than 2 villains are you????

Don't you might as well light money on fire.

Define "proceed cautiously".

Generally if there are more than 2 callers of your pfr give up the hand unless you flop a set if there are 2 overcards+ or if 1 overcard is an Ace. - if 1 non Ace overcard flops keep betting like you have the best hand.

[ QUOTE ]

I really have problesm with these situations though:

e.g. UTG+1 raises 5xBB, I call in the BB with 1010, I am regularly clueless on the flop. This is a huge hole in my game, and I wa sjust wondering if anyone could help me?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are oop - is flop nice? THEN bet. is flop bad? THEN check/fold.

in this case If flop = Txx flop = nice. If you have no set flop = not nice. If flop has an Ace and you are up against 1 villain only CBet and then give up UI or fold to UTG+1's raise.

Re: Guide for playing 99-QQ
 

[ QUOTE ]

With medium pocket pairs against a raise, the common adage is "no set no bet"


[/ QUOTE ]

...which is why we hate "common adages" around here.

To the original poster: these are hands that LOVE putting in a preflop raise, even after limpers. The reason is that they either (a) hit a nuclear-powered hand on the flop and win VERY often when they set up, or (b) take down the hand with a continuation bet.

Are you playing mostly live games, or maybe micro-limits? A 4xBB+1/limper raise really shouldn't be getting you 2+ callers on average at a no-limit online table with a buyin of $25 or higher. If your raises aren't getting enough respect, make them bigger (but CONSISTENTLY bigger -- don't change the size of raises with these hands unless you change the size of raises with all your hands). At a $10NL game, you can probably get away with 5xBB+1/limper or even 6xBB+1/limper; at a live game, 8xBB+2/limper isn't at all unreasonable, and sometimes 12xBB+4/limper is appropriate. Monitor the table, and see what's working and what's not -- go with what works. Your ideal situation is to get exactly one caller.

If someone else raises before the hand gets to you, you will now have a decision to make. Ciaffone's "5/10 rule" says you can call a bet that is less than 5% of your opponent's stack every time, but you should fold a bet that is more than 10% of your opponent's stack here. (Note: that's if you're playing the hand for set value.) I'd consider reraising with these hands, depending on a few things:

1. How loose the original raiser is with raises. The more frisky he is with raising preflop, the more likely I am to pop it back at him.
2. How many players will be in the hand. The worst situation for my hand is probably three players seeing the flop. With four or more, I'm getting pot odds to chase my set; heads-up, my hand is likely to win at showdown. If it's looking like the pot is going to be three-way if I call, I don't smooth-call -- I raise.
3. How weak-tight the original raiser is. If he's the sort that I can push off a hand on the flop, I'm wanting to reraise to take control of the hand and fire a continuation bet on the flop.
4. The stack sizes of the original raiser and the players left to act. If there's a deep stack left to act, I'd be more inclined to smooth-call and hope for another juicy caller. If there's a short stack left to act, I'd also be more inclined to smooth-call, since bloating the pot is likely to pot commit them (and me). If the original bettor is short- or deep-stacked, I'd be more inclined to smooth-call for the same reasons.

On the flop, you'll have one of three situations:

- Set. If you hit your set, play as though someone had lit your ball-hair on fire and you had to finish the hand before you can put the flames out. In other words: FAST. Bet at least 3/4-pot; if raised, three-bet all-in. Don't eff around -- get the money in the middle. Slowplaying is where sets go to die.

- Overpair. These should also be played extremely fast on the flop, but beware of resistance. Your hand is not infallible, here, and you need to be a bit cautious. Consider your hand the winner until proven otherwise, but always keep your eye on pot control. You do NOT want your stack in the middle with just an overpair.

- Underpair. This is a weak hand, and it's probably dog crap if an ace is on the board. If you were in control of the hand preflop, go ahead and make your continuation bet, but that's the last money you put in the pot. Literally. I'm talking "fold to a minraise" here. There's no reason why you should spend 1/3rd of your stack proving that you're beaten. Let it go.

This approach is highly cautious, but at SSNL tables, caution is warranted. The goal with medium pairs is not to maximize your value when you're ahead -- that happens quite naturally. The goal is minimizing your losses when you're behind, and that involves folding. Often. Even if you might be ahead. Let 'em go.

Re: Guide for playing 99-QQ
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you hit your set, play as though someone had lit your ball-hair on fire and you had to finish the hand before you can put the flames out.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's an aboslute gem, and the next time i hit a set i'll be laughing and thinking about how I'm playing like my ball-hair is on fire.

Re: Guide for playing 99-QQ
 

I'm a Limit-player / NL-noob who likes to learn NL. Thanks for this post Pokey, it was very helpful.

Re: Guide for playing 99-QQ
 

I'll repost, but this time hopefully say something serious.

I didn't bother to read replies to your question after they started seriously answering your question, so I apologize if I happen to repeat something that someone else already said.

At low stakes, and especially as a low stakes player myself, I realize that I am not nearly the reader that the higher stakes players are. Indeed its not even close to the most important skill to have or be developing at this early point in the game. For support of this statement I will only say that it's impossible to read an unthinking player.

That said, QQ and JJ are premium hands. You should not feel bad about playing these the way you described (potting preflop, and being cautious with them on ugly flops). 99 and TT, however, I have found through personal experience to be troublesome if played this way.

First, both this hands flop an overcard a disparagingly large amount of the time (JJ flops an over card 50% or so of the time as well-- if my memory serves). You are playing a game that morons frequent, and if you happen to have a few at your table, they will most likely be in your hand with you holding one of more card larger than a ten.

Second, attempting to read an opponent is disaster waiting to happen. That is why I play 99 and TT for set value. No pot raises pf, unless late position against one or two limpers (but this is mostly because you have position against weak opponents, not because your hand is a monster.) If you flop a set, bet. If not, fold.

My sarcasm detector doesn't really function properly, so I'm not exactly sure if Isura was being serious or not in the post where she (he?) recomments remembering that you should fold bottom set or top set on a monotone board.

I disagree with this, and pretty strongly too. Folding bottom set against a raiser for no reason other than that your opponent is the pre flop raiser is a serious leak. Isura's language is a little confusing in that she might be meaning to say "but you might have to fold any set (including bottom, middle and top) on a monotone...." This I still disagree with for this reason:

Law of total probability says you can be in two situations
1) your opponent does not yet have a flush. In which case you are VERY likely to be ahead here. If they are specifically drawing to a flush (at this point) you can punish them with a healthy bet (especially if you have position on them).

2) your opponent is a lucksack and has flopped a flush. In which case you still win this hand by the showdown a little more than a third of the time. Your opponent is bad, so look for them to price you in, as I see a lot of low limit NLHE players make small (if any) flop bets when they have a hand this strong trying to get you involved in the pot. Your set already means you are involved, so lol@them cause they dont know about it. Look to implied odds to delete their stack, especially their play strongly suggests that they DO have this flush.

-RubbleRobble

Re: Guide for playing 99-QQ
 

Sets are overrated, I push with 2/7 suited preflop but cleverly slowplay 2/7 offsuit.

Re: Guide for playing 99-QQ
 

Thanks very much, really helpful advice

Earlier this situation came up on the flop:

I raised someones1/2 PSB on the flop with JJ (on averpair at that point). They then re-raised all-in (we had about the same stack sizes)

Although that is very sketchy detail for a hand, is it a situation where I should be pretty sure I'm behind?

Re: Guide for playing 99-QQ
 

not enough detail, in particulat, stack sizes and pre flop action...

Re: Guide for playing 99-QQ
 

if this shove is more than say, twice the value of your reraise, then you can be confident you are beat. remember, JJ is no AA (and AA is no set). however, if you reraised to like 25 (just for example) and he AI's for 35 or 40 total or whatever, id more ready to call, cause an AI on his part with so few chips is not always a sign of strength.

Re: Guide for playing 99-QQ
 

YEa, didnt think so-its on Pacific Poker though-dont know how to get the HH's

Re: Guide for playing 99-QQ
 

Great discussion everyone. Very informative. The only thing I'd like to add is there's a huge difference between the way I play QQ vs. the way I play JJ and below. QQ almost needs her own category.

Chance you won't catch a set but will be overcarded:
QQ - 37.84%
JJ - 51.82%
TT - 62.94%
99 & below - good luck

Re: Guide for playing 99-QQ
 

Another question for this lively discussion:D

What sort of action/board is necessary to convince you that your overpair is no good?

Re: Guide for playing 99-QQ
 

[ QUOTE ]


you aren't Cbetting at more than 2 villains are you????

Don't you might as well light money on fire.


[/ QUOTE ]

You're joking right? If one raises with QQ and get 3 callers you suggest one should CHECK the flop!?

You might as well muck preflop. That is TERRIBLE advice. You realise that QQ (or JJ or TT) is probably still the best hand most of the time, right?

I'll check UNIMPROVED overs if I get 3 callers. But a pair!? You assume an opponent always flops a better pair everytime you get 3 callers? Wow, you must play with some serious heaters.

Re: Guide for playing 99-QQ
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'll repost, but this time hopefully say something serious.

I didn't bother to read replies to your question after they started seriously answering your question, so I apologize if I happen to repeat something that someone else already said.

At low stakes, and especially as a low stakes player myself, I realize that I am not nearly the reader that the higher stakes players are. Indeed its not even close to the most important skill to have or be developing at this early point in the game. For support of this statement I will only say that it's impossible to read an unthinking player.

That said, QQ and JJ are premium hands. You should not feel bad about playing these the way you described (potting preflop, and being cautious with them on ugly flops). 99 and TT, however, I have found through personal experience to be troublesome if played this way.

First, both this hands flop an overcard a disparagingly large amount of the time (JJ flops an over card 50% or so of the time as well-- if my memory serves). You are playing a game that morons frequent, and if you happen to have a few at your table, they will most likely be in your hand with you holding one of more card larger than a ten.

Second, attempting to read an opponent is disaster waiting to happen. That is why I play 99 and TT for set value. No pot raises pf, unless late position against one or two limpers (but this is mostly because you have position against weak opponents, not because your hand is a monster.) If you flop a set, bet. If not, fold.


[/ QUOTE ]

So, in other words, don't play 99 or TT too strongly, because the morons are luckier than you are and will always outflop you; if an overcard flops, it's always the one the moron is holding.

WTF kind of advice is this?

And by the way, regarding Isura's comment, yes, your sarcasm detector is trashed.

Re: Guide for playing 99-QQ
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


you aren't Cbetting at more than 2 villains are you????

Don't you might as well light money on fire.


[/ QUOTE ]

You're joking right? If one raises with QQ and get 3 callers you suggest one should CHECK the flop!?

You might as well muck preflop. That is TERRIBLE advice. You realise that QQ (or JJ or TT) is probably still the best hand most of the time, right?

I'll check UNIMPROVED overs if I get 3 callers. But a pair!? You assume an opponent always flops a better pair everytime you get 3 callers? Wow, you must play with some serious heaters.

[/ QUOTE ]

A CB is when we are bluffing - It is financial suicide to bluff at more than 2 villains.

If the flop is good and we have say QQ then I'm not checking the flop I am *value betting*

If I have QQ and the board comes A high with no draw for me and there are 3+ other villains out there I am dropping my ladies faster than you can say "losing one pair hand" if I feel frisky I MIGHT throw out a flop bet if it's checked to me - but invariably I won't.

If I raise with QQ preflop I make a raise that is designed to get me HU on the flop - depending on the table I'm at it might be 4BB 6BB 8BB whatever it takes - if I still get 3 callers then I'm pretty freaking sure that my QQ is no good.

I don't autopilot my bet amounts - they are table specific. 3 callers to any one pair hand thats UI on the flop I think is always bad news whatever pair you have.

QQ is ~60% to win vs 3 random hands preflop.

If my (suitably hefty)pfr gets three callers you can bet the farm that they have better than random hands and my pretty looking one pair hands equity has just fallen through the floor.

I still think that one should not Continuation Bet(bluff) at ANY flop if all you have is an unimproved pair and your preflop raise gets 3 or more callers.

I would rather set fire to my money.

Re: Guide for playing 99-QQ
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


you aren't Cbetting at more than 2 villains are you????

Don't you might as well light money on fire.


[/ QUOTE ]

You're joking right? If one raises with QQ and get 3 callers you suggest one should CHECK the flop!?

You might as well muck preflop. That is TERRIBLE advice. You realise that QQ (or JJ or TT) is probably still the best hand most of the time, right?

I'll check UNIMPROVED overs if I get 3 callers. But a pair!? You assume an opponent always flops a better pair everytime you get 3 callers? Wow, you must play with some serious heaters.

[/ QUOTE ]

A CB is when we are bluffing - It is financial suicide to bluff at more than 2 villains.

If the flop is good and we have say QQ then I'm not checking the flop I am *value betting*

If I have QQ and the board comes A high with no draw for me and there are 3+ other villains out there I am dropping my ladies faster than you can say "losing one pair hand" if I feel frisky I MIGHT throw out a flop bet if it's checked to me - but invariably I won't.

If I raise with QQ preflop I make a raise that is designed to get me HU on the flop - depending on the table I'm at it might be 4BB 6BB 8BB whatever it takes - if I still get 3 callers then I'm pretty freaking sure that my QQ is no good.

I don't autopilot my bet amounts - they are table specific. 3 callers to any one pair hand thats UI on the flop I think is always bad news whatever pair you have.

QQ is ~60% to win vs 3 random hands preflop.

If my (suitably hefty)pfr gets three callers you can bet the farm that they have better than random hands and my pretty looking one pair hands equity has just fallen through the floor.

I still think that one should not Continuation Bet(bluff) at ANY flop if all you have is an unimproved pair and your preflop raise gets 3 or more callers.

I would rather set fire to my money.

[/ QUOTE ]

Puuuuuuullllease.

QQ is 60% to win vs 3. random hands that call all the way to the river.

Sooo...

1)You win more often than the other 3 callers
2)Your winrate increases dramatically if you bet the flop and 1 (or 2) opponents fold.

If you are checking A and K flops you may as well turn your cards face up. And you already ARE lighting your money on fire, so don't bother with your metaphors.

Do you check/fold KK when an A flops? What's the difference???

People calling preflop raises are VERY often holding speculative hands that they will be more than happy to fold when an A flops.

Re: Guide for playing 99-QQ
 

[ QUOTE ]
Another question for this lively discussion:D

What sort of action/board is necessary to convince you that your overpair is no good?

[/ QUOTE ]

The kinda where someone invests more than half their stack (or the action implies that this is gonna happen).

Re: Guide for playing 99-QQ
 

bilbo-san, without being too nasty, you are IMO a disease upon the forums. in your last three posts youve rudely critized people's advice (while apparently not even understanding said people's lines-- mine in particular) without giving advice to the OP on the way YOU would play the hand. Shame on you.

when i said that i limp 99 and TT because often there will be overcards, and often a donk will have one isnt saying that this is the case at all times, thus fold. what i am saying (and said origianlly) was that i play these hands for set value. What this means is limping PF (except in the situations i mentioned) because (especially from EP) a normal raise makes the pot on the flop larger than you would like assuming you have 2 or 3 callers. 2 or 3 callers is by no means a rarity at low limits. and if an overcard flops then you have put yourself (through your pf 3xBB raise) a) out of position b) in a large pot (need to win a pot increases proportionately with the size of the pot) c) against hands that might beat you d) with no information about the hands. Sure, you might have 30 percent equity or whatever, but that number will never actually manifest itself for a variety of reason. i could easily be wrong, but for these reasons i dont like playing 99 and TT like they were QQ.

why dont you try being a helpful member of the community, instead of unilaterally negative...

edit: just parused your posts in other threads and you dont sound nearly as negative as you do here. i guess ill chalk it up to varience.

Re: Guide for playing 99-QQ
 

Another nice write up by Pokey.

Re: Guide for playing 99-QQ
 

ok

QQ vs 3 callers

I have given these callers folowing ranges a)top20% b)top40% c)random hand - I think these are reasonable.

on a ragged A high flop...
37,252,619 games 99.719 secs 373,575 games/sec

Board: Ac 9h 3d
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 28.4993 % 28.34% 00.16% { QcQd }
Hand 2: 30.9066 % 30.18% 00.72% { 66+, A4s+, K8s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, A9o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }
Hand 3: 25.7254 % 25.00% 00.72% { 44+, A2s+, K2s+, Q4s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, A3o+, K7o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T9o }
Hand 4: 14.8687 % 14.50% 00.37% { random }

2 overcards...
7,413,141 games 22.594 secs 328,102 games/sec

Board: 9h Ad Kc
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 15.1092 % 14.75% 00.36% { QcQd }
Hand 2: 40.0912 % 38.35% 01.74% { 66+, A4s+, K8s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, A9o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }
Hand 3: 32.3684 % 30.58% 01.79% { 44+, A2s+, K2s+, Q4s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, A3o+, K7o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T9o }
Hand 4: 12.4312 % 11.58% 00.85% { random }

2flush A high flop
10,155,929 games 26.875 secs 377,895 games/sec

Board: 9h 3h Ac
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 25.7597 % 25.61% 00.15% { QcQd }
Hand 2: 31.6422 % 30.98% 00.66% { 66+, A4s+, K8s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, A9o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }
Hand 3: 26.9605 % 26.30% 00.66% { 44+, A2s+, K2s+, Q4s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, A3o+, K7o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T9o }
Hand 4: 15.6376 % 15.30% 00.34% { random }

Broadway K high 2flush
9,640,745 games 27.500 secs 350,572 games/sec

Board: Td Ks Js
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 35.9728 % 31.96% 04.01% { QcQd }
Hand 2: 30.1485 % 27.35% 02.79% { 66+, A4s+, K8s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, A9o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }
Hand 3: 21.8488 % 19.42% 02.43% { 44+, A2s+, K2s+, Q4s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, A3o+, K7o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T9o }
Hand 4: 12.0299 % 10.58% 01.45% { random }

I'd bet on the last one - but only as we have OESD outs to go with our set outs. If we flop no draw at all I am not putting another cent into the pot vs three callers.

We are an underdog in all of the first 3 situations vs 3 callers with pretty wide ranges.

The more people call the more chance there is that one of them connected with the flop and that our pretty one pair hand is toast.

This is at a 6-max table - the number of times I get 3 callers to a pfr is minimal - this happens very very rarely - when it does if I flop no draw I am outta there - I don't think I am losing much value here.

Why continue on a bad flop vs that many villains - you are asking for trouble. There are many other better spots with more EV to throw your chips at than a dodgy flop with a multiway action when you only hold one pair.

More often than not if you bet a flop with three or more callers one of them WILL call and at best then you are *slightly* ahead and more than likely a significant dog to win the SD.

Playing online people Love to play Aces I think you can also bet the farm that if three callers call my(suitably hefty) pfr then one of them has an Ace for sure...

If an Ace flops then I am extra cautious.

So I fold the flop - I've lost perhaps as much as 30% equity in a small pot and I'm out the minor amount of a preflop raise. I'm not losing any sleep over that - I simply reload if need be to get my stack back to a minimum of 100BB and play the next hand - if it turns out I folded the best hand, whatever I'll takes notes that the callers are looser than normal and move on. There are other better spots I can bet on.

Am I really so wrong here??

Re: Guide for playing 99-QQ
 

[ QUOTE ]
bilbo-san, without being too nasty, you are IMO a disease upon the forums. in your last three posts youve rudely critized people's advice (while apparently not even understanding said people's lines-- mine in particular) without giving advice to the OP on the way YOU would play the hand. Shame on you.

when i said that i limp 99 and TT because often there will be overcards, and often a donk will have one isnt saying that this is the case at all times, thus fold. what i am saying (and said origianlly) was that i play these hands for set value. What this means is limping PF (except in the situations i mentioned) because (especially from EP) a normal raise makes the pot on the flop larger than you would like assuming you have 2 or 3 callers. 2 or 3 callers is by no means a rarity at low limits. and if an overcard flops then you have put yourself (through your pf 3xBB raise) a) out of position b) in a large pot (need to win a pot increases proportionately with the size of the pot) c) against hands that might beat you d) with no information about the hands. Sure, you might have 30 percent equity or whatever, but that number will never actually manifest itself for a variety of reason. i could easily be wrong, but for these reasons i dont like playing 99 and TT like they were QQ.

why dont you try being a helpful member of the community, instead of unilaterally negative...

edit: just parused your posts in other threads and you dont sound nearly as negative as you do here. i guess ill chalk it up to varience.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry you think I'm nasty. I think you are giving very bad, and very weak-tight advice. You are playing 99 and TT for set value only, and your reasoning appears to be "someone always out-flops me". Again, this is very weak-tight, Monsters-under-the-bed-style thinking. I thought this was obvious.

I got sarcastic, but please chill. This board is full of sarcastic posts and I'm certainly not the only guilty party.

By the way, IF you only limp with 99 or TT, then you are probably forced to play it for set value only. This is perhaps ok from the blinds, but in position, this is very bad. When you are in position you can often raise (or re-raise) with these hands, and take it down on the flop (yes, even vs. an overcard or two). Doing this is far more profitable than playing for set-value only. If you get 3 or four callers when you raise, fine, change gears and play for set value (but regardless of your pair, with only 1 overcard I still bet just about anything checked to me).

Re: Guide for playing 99-QQ
 

I haven't read all the replies here, but here's my approach to playing these hands. I know lots of people seem to have a lot of trouble with them, but with the exception of a few situations I don't really get it. Here's my approach:

1. These hands all like to raise preflop. I raise preflop with them basically 100% of the time. I also reraise preflop nearly 100% of the time with QQ, and not infrequently with JJ. TT I will occasionally reraise with also, and 99 is not out of the question. These latter three will depend somewhat on the other players (i.e. never reraise 99 or TT against a tight calling station, but sometimes against a LAG). (Note I will also generally reraise PF with AK and often AQ, and sometimes other random hands when I feel like the situation is right, so this will affect my EV reraising with QQ-99, your mileage may vary).

2. On the flop one of three things can happen. Either:

A) I flop a set. Bombs away.

B) I flop an underpair. Bluff once, and possibly bluff again if I think villain is drawing or FOS. But generally shut down if called.

C) I flop an overpair. This is the hard one. Generally I play these very fast, and try to get away from them when I face strong resistance. The latter is hard to do right, but so be it. Overpairs are just tough hands, whether it be AA or JJ (and in fact JJ may be easier than AA).

Re: Guide for playing 99-QQ
 

Thanks for another great post grand pooh-bah.

Re: Guide for playing 99-QQ
 

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With medium pocket pairs against a raise, the common adage is "no set no bet"


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...which is why we hate "common adages" around here.

To the original poster: these are hands that LOVE putting in a preflop raise, even after limpers. The reason is that they either (a) hit a nuclear-powered hand on the flop and win VERY often when they set up, or (b) take down the hand with a continuation bet.

Are you playing mostly live games, or maybe micro-limits? A 4xBB+1/limper raise really shouldn't be getting you 2+ callers on average at a no-limit online table with a buyin of $25 or higher. If your raises aren't getting enough respect, make them bigger (but CONSISTENTLY bigger -- don't change the size of raises with these hands unless you change the size of raises with all your hands). At a $10NL game, you can probably get away with 5xBB+1/limper or even 6xBB+1/limper; at a live game, 8xBB+2/limper isn't at all unreasonable, and sometimes 12xBB+4/limper is appropriate. Monitor the table, and see what's working and what's not -- go with what works. Your ideal situation is to get exactly one caller.

If someone else raises before the hand gets to you, you will now have a decision to make. Ciaffone's "5/10 rule" says you can call a bet that is less than 5% of your opponent's stack every time, but you should fold a bet that is more than 10% of your opponent's stack here. (Note: that's if you're playing the hand for set value.) I'd consider reraising with these hands, depending on a few things:

1. How loose the original raiser is with raises. The more frisky he is with raising preflop, the more likely I am to pop it back at him.
2. How many players will be in the hand. The worst situation for my hand is probably three players seeing the flop. With four or more, I'm getting pot odds to chase my set; heads-up, my hand is likely to win at showdown. If it's looking like the pot is going to be three-way if I call, I don't smooth-call -- I raise.
3. How weak-tight the original raiser is. If he's the sort that I can push off a hand on the flop, I'm wanting to reraise to take control of the hand and fire a continuation bet on the flop.
4. The stack sizes of the original raiser and the players left to act. If there's a deep stack left to act, I'd be more inclined to smooth-call and hope for another juicy caller. If there's a short stack left to act, I'd also be more inclined to smooth-call, since bloating the pot is likely to pot commit them (and me). If the original bettor is short- or deep-stacked, I'd be more inclined to smooth-call for the same reasons.

On the flop, you'll have one of three situations:

- Set. If you hit your set, play as though someone had lit your ball-hair on fire and you had to finish the hand before you can put the flames out. In other words: FAST. Bet at least 3/4-pot; if raised, three-bet all-in. Don't eff around -- get the money in the middle. Slowplaying is where sets go to die.

- Overpair. These should also be played extremely fast on the flop, but beware of resistance. Your hand is not infallible, here, and you need to be a bit cautious. Consider your hand the winner until proven otherwise, but always keep your eye on pot control. You do NOT want your stack in the middle with just an overpair.

- Underpair. This is a weak hand, and it's probably dog crap if an ace is on the board. If you were in control of the hand preflop, go ahead and make your continuation bet, but that's the last money you put in the pot. Literally. I'm talking "fold to a minraise" here. There's no reason why you should spend 1/3rd of your stack proving that you're beaten. Let it go.

This approach is highly cautious, but at SSNL tables, caution is warranted. The goal with medium pairs is not to maximize your value when you're ahead -- that happens quite naturally. The goal is minimizing your losses when you're behind, and that involves folding. Often. Even if you might be ahead. Let 'em go.

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This is an outstanding post, IMO. Ni hand, sir.