Party 100 vs Kukavica
 

For those who aren't familiar with Kukavica he is an aggressive thinking player. 18/12/1.8

I'm in the BB and am dealt Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

UTG limps, Kukavica raises from the CO, and I call from the BB with Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Flop is 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Checked to Kuka who bets I call hoping to keep UTG in the hand, UTG calls.

Turn is the 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] For a board of 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I lead out

Thoughts?

Re: Party 100 vs Kukavica
 

standard. c'c/donk is the new c'r.

Barron

Re: Party 100 vs Kukavica
 

Very interesting. I like it. I also like the check/call on the flop. I've been check/calling my draws a bit more on low boards where a thinking player will 3 bet an AJ, AQ, AK since he's smart enough to gather that we probably have a draw.

Re: Party 100 vs Kukavica
 

OP,

Could you go into more detail about your flop call?

I am assuming you want to keep UTG in the hand in order to keep the pot protected, which will increase your fold equity against the good player if you decide to take a shot at the pot.

Am I on the right track? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Party 100 vs Kukavica
 

I am not sure I like it since a pp isnt folding and a single ace made a straight. I would have liked it if the turn was a 6-J.

Re: Party 100 vs Kukavica
 

In my opinion, the only hands in Kuka's range here that you put him on a tough decision is KQ/KJ/QJ. IE, a legit non-PP non-ace hand. If that's the case, then either check-raising the flop or betting out on the flop would have put more pressure on him.

If you wanted to keep UTG in the hand I think betting out would have done the trick... he either has a hand he's going to call or he's not going to call just because he can seal the action (most PP 1/2ers don't think like that).

I'm not saying the check-call flop - lead turn line is bad, I just feel it's inconsistent logic.

I don't see what hands you're trying to get him to fold/not raise.

Maybe I need to think about it more, but that's all for now. I feel Kuka's one of the better players on the PP 1/2, I'd have just lead out flop and 3 bet and hope that I hit / he doesn't / some combination thereof.

Ok that's it for my once every half a year post.

~andy

Re: Party 100 vs Kukavica
 

[ QUOTE ]
OP,

Could you go into more detail about your flop call?

I am assuming you want to keep UTG in the hand in order to keep the pot protected, which will increase your fold equity against the good player if you decide to take a shot at the pot.

Am I on the right track? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]
sorry, but you are not on the right track.
he has Qhi.
CRing flop and betting all the way gets called down by about AJ+ and punished w/ a turn raise on a blank 90% of the time.

Re: Party 100 vs Kukavica
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
OP,

Could you go into more detail about your flop call?

I am assuming you want to keep UTG in the hand in order to keep the pot protected, which will increase your fold equity against the good player if you decide to take a shot at the pot.

Am I on the right track? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]
sorry, but you are not on the right track.
he has Qhi.
CRing flop and betting all the way gets called down by about AJ+ and punished w/ a turn raise on a blank 90% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

So by calling the flop and donking the turn we increase the fold equity of our semi bluff since the thinking player puts less weight to the possiblity of you bluffing with two other players in the pot one of which seems loose and fishy?

Re: Party 100 vs Kukavica
 

he bet because a scary card came dude.
where are you?

Re: Party 100 vs Kukavica
 

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he bet because a scary card came dude.
where are you?

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Over thinking the [censored] out of this hand [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Party 100 vs Kukavica
 

[ QUOTE ]
Over thinking the [censored] out of this hand [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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happens~


i thought the call was trying to get a 1/2bet at better than 1:1 instead of a whole bet at 1:1

seems like c/ring this board vs a good player really narrows down the hand range he puts you on as well, which really downplays the initiave advantage we get from c/ring the flop ~

Re: Party 100 vs Kukavica
 

Funny how we tend to put preflop raisers on AK/AQ. Then, when the board is 5432, we put them on a KK that they will no doubt fold if we bet...heh

I am not saying that your turn bet was bad. In fact, it is quite imaginative. But I am not sure that it is a great play either. If the guy has an ace, he may well jack it up and you are now req'd to pay an extra bet to chase your flush.

But yeah, I do like your play and may well have done the same thing.

Re: Party 100 vs Kukavica
 

Every once in a while I read a hand where someone takes a really clever line, this is one of them. Pro play baby

Re: Party 100 vs Kukavica
 

[ QUOTE ]
Funny how we tend to put preflop raisers on AK/AQ. Then, when the board is 5432, we put them on a KK that they will no doubt fold if we bet...heh

I am not saying that your turn bet was bad. In fact, it is quite imaginative. But I am not sure that it is a great play either. If the guy has an ace, he may well jack it up and you are now req'd to pay an extra bet to chase your flush.


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i don't see why people like this donk bet on the turn... in hopes that he doesn't have a big ace, and instead has a big pocket pair, that will fold to a turn donk... it just seems like a long shot....

btw... what are the chance that if we check, we get a free card?

Re: Party 100 vs Kukavica
 

Are you trying to pot commit yourself so you can call the raise with as you likely could face two cold on turn. I definitely like bluffing with outs here. However, is Kukavica likely to fold here? In my experience he rarely folds here, but you could take it down here.

Re: Party 100 vs Kukavica
 

People are forgetting UTG is still in the hand.

Re: Party 100 vs Kukavica
 

When Kukavica raises, we don't put him on AQ or AK. It depends what position he raised from - if it's EP it's 8Js, LP it's 56s.

Anyways - I like the bet, depending on your image. A lot of people go after Kuk from the blinds - so are you the type who would threebet A-high vs him? (most seem to in a heartbeat). He's not gonna fold highcard or pair on the offchance you have a 6, and from the above I doubt he'll put you on Ax.

So I think all he'll fold here that you would lose to is K-high.I hope you hit your flush.

And I love the post about the c/c donk being the new c/r.

Re: Party 100 vs Kukavica
 

Some may be forgetting... However, I am not. My question was are you worried if you check it could go bet/raise before it gets to you?

Results and thoughts
 

Both players folded.

My thinking was that Kuka will bet this turn if checked to 100% of the time and since I have no intention of folding, and a check raise can get expensive, why not lead out. More often than not a overpair will call me down. Overcards will fold and an ace may just call down as well since a 6 makes a higher straight.

Re: Party 100 vs Kukavica
 

does nobody simply C/R the flop? that would be my preferred (standard but fine) line.

Re: Party 100 vs Kukavica
 

"I call hoping to keep UTG in the hand, UTG calls."

Re: Party 100 vs Kukavica
 

why would you want another player in with you. there is a real chance you might have the best hand with the queen high. and if not likely 15 outs leaving you still the favorite. you want to knock out the sb and play the pot against kuka.

Re: Party 100 vs Kukavica
 

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why would you want another player in with you. there is a real chance you might have the best hand with the queen high. and if not likely 15 outs leaving you still the favorite. you want to knock out the sb and play the pot against kuka.

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To increase my implied odds in the event that I did make my flush draw. Of course I could turn or river a Jack or Queen and lose to a bigger one from the UTG player but I thought the extra bet or two that I could make from my flush was worth that risk. Flawed thinking?

Re: Party 100 vs Kukavica
 

I don't like this play at all.

Re: Party 100 vs Kukavica
 

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why would you want another player in with you. there is a real chance you might have the best hand with the queen high. and if not likely 15 outs leaving you still the favorite. you want to knock out the sb and play the pot against kuka.

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Not many hands that raise an UTG limper at a full table are worse than Queen high (kuka raises 12% of the time). I think that saying there is a real chance his Queen high is best is a bit of a stretch. Further, against most players, and kuka in particular, your bluffing equity is relatively small here.

I guess the question then becomes twofold - how much additional action do your clean outs get you if two players stay in versus how many outs do you clean up if you do raise here versus the cost of that raise (namely getting three bet by either UTG or kuka).

At the time of OPs flop action there are 7.5SB in the pot. You would have to make some assumptions about how much equity raising gains you here exactly, but relative to the cost of getting three bet and the opportunity cost of a big hand if you do hit makes it at least close in my opinion.

The other thing that makes it close is that this post sat for a while and nobody on the boards questioned the flop play at all. Let's see what people say now.

I think it's close, and arguements can be made for both sides. I have a bit of an advantage here because I know Kuka, but raising here is asking to get three bet, and UTG may fold a better hand with a Q or a J, so you protect the existing pot in that situation somewhat, but on average, your equity is relatively consistent. 15 outs twice, minus a few on average if its three players.

If i had to guess, you have 13 outs on average vs kuka and 11-12 outs on average vs both players. but that's simply an estimated guess.

The bigger the current pot size RELATIVE to future action the more value you get from putting pressure on the third player and "cleaning up" outs.

Re: Party 100 vs Kukavica
 

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I don't like this play at all.

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Now that's some insightful analysis! Great post.

Re: Party 100 vs Kukavica
 

i agree with the flop call and i dont see much purpose to checkraising as ace high is calling you down.

the turn donk is very interesting imo but i think it looks good mostly because Ax is unlikely to raise your turn bet since you could easily have a 6. so rather than checkcall against ace high you pay the same number of bets while giving yourself some miniscule fold equity.

Re: Party 100 vs Kukavica
 

Thank you.

Re: Party 100 vs Kukavica
 

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why would you want another player in with you. there is a real chance you might have the best hand with the queen high. and if not likely 15 outs leaving you still the favorite. you want to knock out the sb and play the pot against kuka.

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I don't buy this. You have to think villain is isolating with a very wide range of hands here. I don't know the player, but believing Q-high is the best hand seems doubtful.

If you raise it's mostly for value with a slight equity edge, and in the hopes that UTG will call 2 cold with an ace / pair. You have a tiny bit of fold equity against king-high, but that's about it. All kuka pocket pairs and ace-high hands are certainly going to call / raise.

In light of that, I think the thought process of trying to keep the 3rd guy in the hand since you are definitely behind and unlikely to win unimproved is reasonable. I think a raise is also reasonable as UTG might just call 2 with an ace anyways, so why screw around, but this is a different argument than your hand currently being best. Personally, with so little fold equity, I'd probably tend to call. Against a good player though, this decision is mostly based on which action I think will look least like a flush draw.

my 2 cents.
Eric

Re: Party 100 vs Kukavica
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why would you want another player in with you. there is a real chance you might have the best hand with the queen high. and if not likely 15 outs leaving you still the favorite. you want to knock out the sb and play the pot against kuka.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't buy this. You have to think villain is isolating with a very wide range of hands here. I don't know the player, but believing Q-high is the best hand seems doubtful.

If you raise it's mostly for value with a slight equity edge, and in the hopes that UTG will call 2 cold with an ace / pair. You have a tiny bit of fold equity against king-high, but that's about it. All kuka pocket pairs and ace-high hands are certainly going to call / raise.

In light of that, I think the thought process of trying to keep the 3rd guy in the hand since you are definitely behind and unlikely to win unimproved is reasonable. I think a raise is also reasonable as UTG might just call 2 with an ace anyways, so why screw around, but this is a different argument than your hand currently being best. Personally, with so little fold equity, I'd probably tend to call. Against a good player though, this decision is mostly based on which action I think will look least like a flush draw.

my 2 cents.
Eric

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nah, im with the raise camp.

in the chance that a Q/J fall off, UTGs limping range definately includes KJ/KQ/AJ. getting one of those hands to drop is important enough that its worth the extra sb.

further, vs. pairs <J you are a favorite so it's not the end of the world putting in those bets. it's only very expensive vs. >=JJ. and even then you're not that poorly off.

Barron

Re: Party 100 vs Kukavica
 

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in the chance that a Q/J fall off, UTGs limping range definately includes KJ/KQ/AJ. getting one of those hands to drop is important enough that its worth the extra sb.

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Nah, it's not. If you get UTG off KJ/KQ/AJ, you've earned yourself another 2 outs (realistically less, since villain having AA/KK/QQ/JJ/AQ/AJ can all make this meaningless).

And 2 outs in a 7.5 sb pot are worth:

~1/22 x 7.5 = 0.34 sb. ie, a third of "the extra sb."

Re: Party 100 vs Kukavica
 

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in the chance that a Q/J fall off, UTGs limping range definately includes KJ/KQ/AJ. getting one of those hands to drop is important enough that its worth the extra sb.

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Nah, it's not. If you get UTG off KJ/KQ/AJ, you've earned yourself another 2 outs (realistically less, since villain having AA/KK/QQ/JJ/AQ/AJ can all make this meaningless).

And 2 outs in a 7.5 sb pot are worth:

~1/22 x 7.5 = 0.34 sb. ie, a third of "the extra sb."

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the hand does not end on the flop.

Barron

Re: Party 100 vs Kukavica
 

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in the chance that a Q/J fall off, UTGs limping range definately includes KJ/KQ/AJ. getting one of those hands to drop is important enough that its worth the extra sb.

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Nah, it's not. If you get UTG off KJ/KQ/AJ, you've earned yourself another 2 outs (realistically less, since villain having AA/KK/QQ/JJ/AQ/AJ can all make this meaningless).

And 2 outs in a 7.5 sb pot are worth:

~1/22 x 7.5 = 0.34 sb. ie, a third of "the extra sb."

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the hand does not end on the flop.

Barron

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Do you stand by the fact that the extra outs gained are worth an extra sb? Do you want me to do the math? Because once we include reverse implied odds as well as implied odds, and the fact that villain can dominate these outs anyway, it'll almost surely end up even less than 0.34 sb.

Do you want me to do the math?