2/5 NL *Super Deep*
 

2/5 Harrahs in Las Vegas. This hand happened in mid January but I remember it like it was yesterday, so action should be exacly right.

$500 Max buyin
Effective stacks:
Villain is UTG+2 with ~ $3500, he has been running out of this world hot, but seems to be a donk. (calling huge raises with gut shots and middle pairs and getting there)

Me: On the button with ~ $2800.

We have both been at the table for 12+ hours and I have been waiting to catch villain for his stack.


Preflop:
UTG limps
1 fold
Villain makes it $30 to go
Folds to Hero, I make it $110 with 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Small blind calls
BB calls
UTG calls
Villain Calls

Pot ~ $550

Flop:

K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

SB checks
BB checks
UTG checks
Villain moves in and covers table

Hero?

Insta call? Insta fold?

I went into the tank for a long while, someone eventually called time on me and the dealer counted me down. Villain is a moron, but is he really risking most of his huge stack with AK or AA? I ruled out the flush draw. Villain is bad, but he is not psychotic enough to push that much money in with a draw. I am 98% sure villain has either AA, AK, or KK. Can I really put ~ 5+ buyins and 500+ BB's in here? Is it ok to chicken out here?

Note: I have been opening alot of pots, but have rarely reraised preflop in the 12+ hours that villain has been at the table. He must think my reraise means big time strength, but he seemed to not care that the K came out. This was one of the factors that made me think so long.

This was the most difficult hand I have ever played. Like alot of people on the forum, most of my experience is online with 100 BB stacks. I'm fairly new to deep stack live play and not sure if I should be risking this deep of a stack with the non nuts.

Re: 2/5 NL *Super Deep*
 

You can always wait for a better situation. Why risk 5 buy-ins and 12+ hours if your not confident?

Re: 2/5 NL *Super Deep*
 

Ehm. Call.

Re: 2/5 NL *Super Deep*
 

you cannot distinguish KK from 22, and he could easily have AA... you need an absolutely sick physical read to lay this down... if you folded you suck (or you're usually good but were playing with scared money)... if you called and he had KK that's poker

Re: 2/5 NL *Super Deep*
 

Flip a coin.

Then call.

This is not a hand that 2+2 can give you any help on. You have middle set - if you want to fold, that's fine, if you want to call, that's fine too.

FWIW I would never play 33 this deep (I certainly wouldn't re-raise it but that's another story).

Re: 2/5 NL *Super Deep*
 

I had $2500 to my name at the time of this hand. I put $500 into play when I sat at this table. So in other words, I had half of my net worth in play on the hand. AND YES before anyone else posts, I was way above my bankroll and that played a part in this hand. Also I was living at the Golden Palm at the time. I highly recommend you stay there when u go to Vegas. LOL. Any vegas locals will appreciate how tongue in cheek this recommendation is.

Re: 2/5 NL *Super Deep*
 

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Re: 2/5 NL *Super Deep*
 

Hehe. zeebo I appreciate just the time it took to make that post.

Re: 2/5 NL *Super Deep*
 

Here are some things to think about:
1. Why push all in if you have the nuts on the flop. granted the pot at the time was 500+ but if you were in the shoes of the villian would you not rather trap with trip K's?
2. What were you hoping for as far as a flop was concerned? quads? you hit your set and NOW you are afraid to push? doesn't make sense to me...You saw this chump was a chaser so even if you put him on AA or AKs he is on either top pair with nut flush potential or an overpair. You are still a big favourite to pull it out.

3. Has he pushed all in during that specific session? if so what is his history like? Does he push with top pair top kicker, does he bluff with crap? what situations did he push all in with? what did the boards look like? scare cards? flush drws??
4.Sounds like a familiar bully maniac type move to me! Call him.

Food for thought.

Re: 2/5 NL *Super Deep*
 

this is a dumb thread. you probably called and lost to A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Re: 2/5 NL *Super Deep*
 

I thought for prolly 2-3 minutes(not fully sure of exact time but it was long enough for someone to call time, which i had not seen happen in 12 hours at the table). I usually act instantly b/c I hate people who hold the game up WPT style, but for once I felt like I had a decision that was so tough I could not choose.

I guess my question is, How deep do I need to be to let this go? At the time, I thought laying down was the best move. However, looking back I can't see how folding can ever be +Ev long term in that spot.

Re: 2/5 NL *Super Deep*
 

I can't belive I am actually taking my time to post an argument for a call here, when it's such a bleeding easy call...

If you think your preflop reraise makes villain put you on a very strong hand preflop, why would he push the nuts?
Would he expect a call from aces?

Re: 2/5 NL *Super Deep*
 

My exact thinking after he pushed.

Re: 2/5 NL *Super Deep*
 

[ QUOTE ]
Here is the only thing to think about:
1. You have a set against a player you describe as awful

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: 2/5 NL *Super Deep*
 

Saint,

Why a dumb thread? This is 500BB's deep. I think there is a legimate argument for getting away from this hand here. When he moved in it was still 500 BB's to me to call. I mean David would crap his pants with exasperation if I called here right? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: 2/5 NL *Super Deep*
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here is the only thing to think about:
1. You have a set against a player you describe as awful

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes he was awful, but even awful players wake up to monsters every once in a while, no?

Re: 2/5 NL *Super Deep*
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here is the only thing to think about:
1. You have a set against a player you describe as awful

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes he was awful, but even awful players wake up to monsters every once in a while, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

Listen, obviously you're not good here 100% of the time. There's no logical proof that he never has KK here. But if he would make such a big bet with KK here, we have to assume that he has just no conception of how to gain value from hands. And if he's got that hole in his game he's probably got other similar holes such as pushing with a flush draw here, blind to the fact that he's risking a lot to win a little. Or thinking AA or AK is the nuts on this board and betting it like he would KK. There are all sorts of absolutely retarded ways that people think about poker, and given your description and his 500BBs open push, my guess is villain has mastered many of them.

Re: 2/5 NL *Super Deep*
 

In general I agree with you. But it is quite possible, even plausible, that he does not understand pot odds and therefore chases like a donkey but he is also so weak/tight that when he is BETTING he is strong and when he is MASSIVELY OVERBETTING he has the nuts. That is not inconsistent at all.

Re: 2/5 NL *Super Deep*
 

Yes, there is a legitimate argument for getting away from this hand. It is as follows,

"I only have $2500 to my name and to call this will cost that much. Boy, wouldn't it suck if I lost this pot? Okay, I fold."

If you had a bankroll of $25K you would call this all day and not even think twice about it.

Re: 2/5 NL *Super Deep*
 

Ok here is some dialogue between me and villain in the ~ 3 minutes i was thinking.

me: (long pause after he moves in b/c i am just blown away on what he could have)

villain: "trust me you want to fold and move on"
me: "your really pushing that much money on AK"
villain: "nah, i got better than AK"
me: "so do I"
villain: quits talking
me: "better than AK?", "AA?", "KK?"

Some bozo who isn't in the hand, but has watched a WPT episode has called clock in between me and villain BS'n back in forth.

Re: 2/5 NL *Super Deep*
 

sounds like AA to me from dialogue.

Re: 2/5 NL *Super Deep*
 

You should've asked if he would run it twice.

If he says yes, call.

If he says no, call.

Re: 2/5 NL *Super Deep*
 

The only issue is how important the money is to you. If this is for half your roll, you shouldn't be playing unless you have no problem at all risking half your roll on a 75/25 shot, which is prolly close to what this is.

Do you need this money to live for the next month? To support a family?

Given how long you thought about this hand, I really hope you got up and left the table right afterwards and either went home, or went to play 1/2nl or at least start over somewhere at 2/5 with $500.

If you want to talk about the hand, do you have any idea about his range preflop?

Would he raise-call like he did with K2s? Would he put in another raise with AA? KK? (I assume not, or there would be no thread) What about 22?

Re: 2/5 NL *Super Deep*
 

call fast and be excited

Re: 2/5 NL *Super Deep*
 

[ QUOTE ]
sounds like AA to me from dialogue.

[/ QUOTE ]

sounded the exact same to me. I play alot of alot of Omaha and I think that has an effect on my hold'em b/c I'm always seeing monsters under the bed when they aren't there.
'

Re: 2/5 NL *Super Deep*
 

lmfao

Re: 2/5 NL *Super Deep*
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is 500BB's deep. I think there is a legimate argument for getting away from this hand here.

[/ QUOTE ]

you keep saying 500BB's deep and it is extremely misleading....the amount that you all started the hand with is not nearly as important as the fact that the pot on the flop represents more than 20% of your stack....if you're gonna reraise with 33 preflop and create that huge a preflop pot, I cannot stress enough to you how big a mistake you're making by folding middle set on a non-straight non-flush board.....

Re: 2/5 NL *Super Deep*
 

http://myspace-436.vo.llnwd.net/0071...13827436_m.jpg

Re: 2/5 NL *Super Deep*
 

coltrane,

My whole point of reraising preflop was to first, take it down, and second to build a pot when the 3 comes. I agree that this is my dream flop, and 9/10 I am gettin it in here smiling ear to ear. I'm only stessing the 500 BB thing b/c even after the preflop reraise I am still 5 buyins deep on the flop. I have to call 2500+ on the flop in a 500 max game. There are sometimes when even the best plans go horribly wrong. I planned to get it in on any flop that contained a 3, but the situation dictated that i rethink that plan.

Re: 2/5 NL *Super Deep*
 

you've got to be [censored] me--install call that.........is this a joke?

Re: 2/5 NL *Super Deep*
 

That sounds like a terrible plan. You shouldn't even be playing 33 500 BBs deep, much less re-raising with it. But if you are re-raising with it, this is a pretty clear call. If you fold, it's because you're playing on scared money and you should get out of the game.

Re: 2/5 NL *Super Deep*
 

Didn't you want to triple your net worth in one night?

This really is the definition of "scared money". You should've just left the table if you were unwilling to put your money in with the 2nd nuts.

Re: 2/5 NL *Super Deep*
 

Nah, this ain't a joke bro. My first thought when he pushed was instacall.... The more I thought the more I talked my self out of it.

Re: 2/5 NL *Super Deep*
 

[ QUOTE ]
You shouldn't even be playing 33 500 BBs deep, much less re-raising with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow...this is just awful advice.

Re: 2/5 NL *Super Deep*
 

You've contradicted yourself about 5 times. You stated in the OP that you were waiting to stack him. You have about as good a situation to do that as you could possibly hope for, and now you're scared to do it.

If you were going to play this way, you should have stated you were trying to avoid villain's big stack. But then you wouldn't have raised preflop (another contradiction). As others have said, if you're not able to make this outrageously easy call, you should have not been in the game.

Re: 2/5 NL *Super Deep*
 

creed,

FWIW I called.

Re: 2/5 NL *Super Deep*
 

legend,

Do you always just follow everyone else's advice or do you ever think for yourself?

It's not always so cut and dry in poker buddy. There isn't a set plan where u always do the same thing.

Re: 2/5 NL *Super Deep*
 

[ QUOTE ]
I guess my question is, How deep do I need to be to let this go? At the time, I thought laying down was the best move. However, looking back I can't see how folding can ever be +Ev long term in that spot.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
creed,

FWIW I called.

[/ QUOTE ]

sounds like you folded to me

Re: 2/5 NL *Super Deep*
 

That pot is [censored] huge when it gets back around to him pre-flop, if he had AA or KK wouldn't he usually hammer it rather than see a 5-way flop with a premium hand?

It looks like 222 to me. You said you didn't think it was a flush draw, but can you completely rule hands like A4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 45[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], and 56[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] out of his range? How often does he bump it to $30 after a limper?

Re: 2/5 NL *Super Deep*
 

I don't see any way you can give him KK here, becuz of PF sequence of action. He opens for $30, then you make it $110 with a deep stack, this is a wet dream scenario for AA or KK, since they get to come back over the top and either win a small pot PF or have 4-1 chance to stack you. But then there are 3 callers in between making pot $450, even the biggest moron in the world knows to push here with AA or KK to protect his hand. There is no way you don't have the best hand, the problem is you should have picked up earlier if the $ on the table is so important to you. You must call here or fold and pick up immediately since your $ is too scared.