bluffraising a limper on 3rd
 

say a solid player limps first in from MP with a medium number showing like an 8 with a couple J+ overs behind him. its folded to you in LP and you have the highest overcard on the table right now.

wouldnt this be a good spot to bluffraise? the book says you should fold a small pair to an overcard raise on 3rd after limping. do most solid players follow this advice? if so, wouldnt it be correct to raise here as stealing seems to have a high probability of success along with the fact that your overcard (with consideration to your hole cards) fares pretty well against a likely medium pair?

are these bluff raises common in stud games and if so, wouldnt it then be very incorrect to limp in with a small pair and fold to a raise against a solid player showing a high card? if so, limping in with medium pairs seems weak altogether and id rather play it for a raise than a limp.

Re: bluffraising a limper on 3rd
 

You shouldn't be limping in with a small pair with overcards ahead of you anyways, so that was the small card's fist mistake. Most good players will have a 3 flush here most of the time. You can raise if you are reasonably sure you can get it heads up. Then bet 4th if he bricks. If he doesn't brick and catches a suited card, you really need to check/fold. Also if you bet 4th and he calls, give it up on 5th.

If he's a bad player who has a small pair in this situation, then you should never try this play, because he will call you down.

Re: bluffraising a limper on 3rd
 

thanks for some good insight.

this question arose after seeing jeffage raise with a medium pair with 2 overs behind him which seems bad but i am a stud novice so i dont know if this is commonly done or not.

i also dont agree with you that you should give it up on 5th. since the bet increases this will be the street hes most likely to fold his draw or pair. i think if anything you should give it up on 6th, not 5th.

Re: bluffraising a limper on 3rd
 

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i also dont agree with you that you should give it up on 5th. since the bet increases this will be the street hes most likely to fold his draw or pair. i think if anything you should give it up on 6th, not 5th.

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I say this because if he is a truly good, solid player (and you shouldn't be making this play against anyone else), he won't be calling 4th with just an unimproved 3 flush heads up. So at this point he either has a pair and 3 flush, or is very likely slow playing a big hand.

Re: bluffraising a limper on 3rd
 

ahh yes thats a good point

Re: bluffraising a limper on 3rd
 

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this question arose after seeing jeffage raise with a medium pair with 2 overs behind him which seems bad but i am a stud novice so i dont know if this is commonly done or not.

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Generally, it is bad. I had game-specific reasons to make that raise - one, the ace was held by a predictable player who would not raise without aces or a big pocket pair. So I felt like I only had to get past the queen really. Also, games on the Internet are generally much tighter than live stud games and steals work much more often. In addition, in a 30-60 game, the odds on a steal are pretty good.

If I had the sixes up front with the J, 10, Q and Ace behind me, it would have been an instamuck. With just the two overs behind me, I'd often fold if those two overs are live and definitely fold if they are held by tenacious or aggressive players who may raise again without aces or otherwise make my life difficult.

I'm not saying the third street play was "correct" (I acknowledged as much in my post), but I did have reasons for making it.

Jeff

Re: bluffraising a limper on 3rd
 

im glad youre discussing your thoughts on that because it makes me better as i had some uncertainty about playing medium pairs with overs behind me. i agree with your standpoints and find your raise reasonable.

to dig deeper into the discussion, i was wondering what your thoughts are when youre holding xxA against a player raising it in from middle position with an 8 showing who will often have a medium pair. do you reraise in this spot often especially if at least 1 of your hole cards are overs?

wouldnt reraising xxA in this spot have significant metagame benefits if youre playing against people who you will play with on a regular basis? this would force them to fold those medium pairs and give you an opportunity at more blind steals while adding alot of deception to your game. you said that you werent fearing a reraise steal from the xxA because he was weak. does this imply that not restealing with xxA makes you a weak player? is restealing with xxA against probable medium pairs a necessary element?

i know that alot of players on this site arent focused on metagame because they play in internet games where most people they play against they will never see again. however, as you know im prepping to play in the 75 game at foxwoods in which ill be playing against regulars very often so its vital to have a great grasp at appropriate metagame concepts but more importantly, understanding what the correct game theory is in all situations.

do you have any insight on proper game theory concerning restealing with Ax?

Re: bluffraising a limper on 3rd (LONG)
 

The problem with raising live after someone limps is that they will almost NEVER fold in my experience (this is less true on the Internet but I rarely play stud online).

[ QUOTE ]
to dig deeper into the discussion, i was wondering what your thoughts are when youre holding xxA against a player raising it in from middle position with an 8 showing who will often have a medium pair. do you reraise in this spot often especially if at least 1 of your hole cards are overs?


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Well, a lot depends. What kind of cards is he raising into? Is your ace the only overcard? Are eights live (if not a pocket pair of some kind is more likely)? Is his suit live (if not a pair is more likely than a three flush)? Would he raise with a high three flush or not? What kind of player is he? What does he think of your play?

If I have an ace trash kinda hand I would just fold usually. If you have three paints of something A-K-10 and your cards are pretty live, I'd probably reraise if I can get it heads up and I feel I have good control over my opponent (sometimes that doesn't matter as much, but it helps). Live three flush I'm raising again. But I mean, like I said, a lot depends on what he might raise with - if it's just an eight, would he be willing to fold eights to your reraise? Some people will and some won't. What kind of player is he?

[ QUOTE ]
wouldnt reraising xxA in this spot have significant metagame benefits if youre playing against people who you will play with on a regular basis? this would force them to fold those medium pairs and give you an opportunity at more blind steals while adding alot of deception to your game.

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Metagame? Yes and no, most people in this game don't really give a [censored] or pay attention. That said, you get "metagame" value from reraising there with any hand that isn't two aces (and it is often profitable to do so with the legit holdings above depending on numerous factors), so why cost yourself money by raising a limper with complete trash (unless he is one to limp-fold with eights AND you think he has eights).

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you said that you werent fearing a reraise steal from the xxA because he was weak. does this imply that not restealing with xxA makes you a weak player? is restealing with xxA against probable medium pairs a necessary element?


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I don't think it's weak to virtually never raise there with a total trash hand like A36. Never reraising there with something like A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (totally live) or A-K-10 totally live is somewhat weak. But I wouldn't raise with hands like this every time. It is very opponent and game dependent - and like I said, consider factors on third to determine what he might have.

I WILL sometimes raise with an ace trash hand on a steal but rarely if someone has already limped. I have some kind of hand, what kind of hand I'll leave to you to figure out. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

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i know that alot of players on this site arent focused on metagame because they play in internet games where most people they play against they will never see again. however, as you know im prepping to play in the 75 game at foxwoods in which ill be playing against regulars very often so its vital to have a great grasp at appropriate metagame concepts but more importantly, understanding what the correct game theory is in all situations.


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Drive to NJ and play at the Taj - I'll buy you dinner after I checkraise bluff you off a hand on the river. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Jeff

Re: bluffraising a limper on 3rd (LONG)
 

good stuff and i agree with most of it but i get the feeling you dont steal enough with high cards in LP after lots of folds. if you have the highest card with like 2 people behind you, isnt this a raise virtually every time?

ill send you a pm next time i head down.

Re: bluffraising a limper on 3rd (LONG)
 

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but i get the feeling you dont steal enough with high cards in LP after lots of folds. if you have the highest card with like 2 people behind you, isnt this a raise virtually every time?


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Where did I imply this? I was referring to the premise of your post which was that someone limped in front of you. Nothing I said was related to stealing really (referring to opening with an ace and raggy holecards when there is a good chance to pick up the antes - that's obvious). That's standard stud strategy - if you think ante stealing will show a profit, you do it. And I do.

Jeff

Re: bluffraising a limper on 3rd
 

I would not recommend bluff raising a limper with trash hands in the Foxwoods $75-$150 game, simply because the immediate odds they get makes it correct to call your raise. It's a high ante game ($15 ante, $25 forced bet) so after you raise the pot will be (assuming full game):

(ante = 8 * $15 = $120) + (bring in and limper = 2 * $25 = $50) + (your raise = $75) = $245

Assuming the bring-in folds that means the limper gets $245:$50 odds, almost 5-1 and is correct to call. And they usually will, meaning you will frequently get yourself in trouble bluff raising with just a high card. You'll need something a little stronger than just a high card.

Now with hands like AKT, or a high 3-flush it's OK, since most of the time you'll be at least close to even money to win, so with the dead money it's actually correct to isolate a limper especially if you have some control over the player.

There are some players who are soft and a lot of times like to see 4th and 5th and will give it up immediately on 5th if they don't improve regardless of what you catch. Against them you can raise more freely, but against most I would not recommend it.

Re: bluffraising a limper on 3rd (LONG)
 

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I WILL sometimes raise with an ace trash hand on a steal

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that quote implied to me that you dont steal enough but i guess its just miscommunication.

Re: bluffraising a limper on 3rd (LONG)
 

Yup. The sometimes I don't do it refers to poor position - if I'm in mid late and the situation looks favorable, of course I raise. I rarely play games where an outright steal from EP is correct. Also, your folding ace garbage from EP with an ace up with train your opponents to fold more when you're outright stealing from mid/late. Getting a rep for constant stealing will cause you to run into problems at some point.

Jeff

Re: bluffraising a limper on 3rd
 

I'll read the rest of this thread later, but it's relatively uncommon for someone to limp in and fold to a completion. Bad players aren't going to fold, and good players aren't likely to have a crappy pair. With a three-flush, they're probably correct to call for the rest of the bet. If they hit a four-flush, they become the favorite. If they pair up, they're not far behind. If they blank off, they can get away from the hand pretty quickly.

Do you play limit hold'em? When someone limps in, do you bluff raise? I hope not, because it's very rare for someone to fold when they've already put one bet in.

Re: bluffraising a limper on 3rd
 

yes im a limit holdem specialist. i isolation raise limpers all the time with whatever but never expect to take down the pot preflop, but to take down the pot on the flop or turn. the situation is different in stud than holdem because a completion is 3-4 times the initial bringin. its not like limit where they call 20 and call another 20. here they call 5 and have to call another 15. so its a different scenario. the scenario is closer to nl than limit where you can isolation raise a limper for 4xBB on a bluff which is something ill frequently do when im playing nl. however, if you say people rarely ever limp in and fold to a raise i trust you because i have no first hand experience with stud. the only reason why i thought limping in and folding to a raise would be common is because s4ap advises doing this, even with medium pairs! i found this advice to be really strange and mediocre which is why i posted about it here because if its correct to limp with medium pairs and fold to raises, its correct to bluffraise probable medium pairs by people who follow the "correct" advice that the book offers.

Re: bluffraising a limper on 3rd
 

In the game your looking to play in, there's probably going to be more than 1 limper, and those guys generally don't like to fold. I haven't played a ton of hours in the FW game, but I've never seen anyone limp/fold on 3rd unless multiple raises went in behind them.