\"I have a big hand and pot odds. I fold\"
 

Hand 1:

'Dise 30r, 100/200 just after the rebuy. I have 2600 chips because I suck, find aces in MP and make it 600. Both blinds call. I don't have a read on either, but if they're typical 30r players, the letter "D" is tattooed on their heads.

The flop is JJ6. Both blinds check and I check with a PSB left (let's not talk about this street, it's relatively standard.)

The turn is a J, and a very interesting thing happens; SB leads 400 into the 1800 pot and BB calls. I decide my hand probably sucks and overcall, waiting for the river.

The river is a Q. SB checks. BB now bets some random large number of chips. I have 1600 behind and will win 4200 when I am good, but don't feel like bothering and muck anyway.

---

Hand 2:

Level 1, Stars 150. I have JJ and raise after a limper or two. The last one calls.

The flop is something like 952, 2 spades. Check, I bet 2/3 pot, he calls.

The turn is a 2. He checks, I decide that since I should probably fold to a CR I can only bet 3/5 pot or so, he thinks forever and calls. At this point I have 1K, he has less and the pot is a little over a thousand.

The river is some low spade. He takes 6-7 seconds and bets 300. After a while, I talk myself into calling for 4.x:1 and lose.

---

Most of you know when to bet relatively well. Most of you are also pot odds oriented to the point where every hand you lose a lot of chips on is a #2 and not a #1. Pot odds are a great thing, except when they aren't.

Re: \"I have a big hand and pot odds. I fold\"
 

Strong fold on hand one. Im not sure if its good... I would probably call because I find it hard to believe that somebody is willing to announce that he has a "J", but I guess he is playing his cards. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I cant se anything els then a river call on hand two. without a read the cheap price might aswell be a gutsi valuebet or something els from a hand that we beat.

Re: \"I have a big hand and pot odds. I fold\"
 

Hand 1: I suppose only a J, Q, or bluff bet the river. If your "D" comment implies they are donkeys then I could see someone betting something like QK on the turn and betting it on the river. (Won't you win 4600 if your AA is best?) I call because of the donk factor.

Hand 2: I call river in your 2nd hand to. Villain could very well be blocking w/ a one pair hand that you beat.

Re: \"I have a big hand and pot odds. I fold\"
 

In the first hand, I would pretty much never fold in this spot (i.e., this tourney against donkeys). I think the fact that they are donks is a stronger argument for your hand being good than otherwise.

Then again, you are 10 times the player I am and I'm drunk, so I'll cede to your superiority (as well as the knowledge that you probably wouldn't have posted this hand unless you were right...)

Re: \"I have a big hand and pot odds. I fold\"
 

Donkeys still flop trips.

Re: \"I have a big hand and pot odds. I fold\"
 

They turn quads too...

Re: \"I have a big hand and pot odds. I fold\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
Donkeys still flop trips.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, they never do.

Re: \"I have a big hand and pot odds. I fold\"
 

...but my point is, a donkey would be more apt to fall in love with a smaller fullhouse.

Re: \"I have a big hand and pot odds. I fold\"
 

(Obligatory note: I play lower stakes than this. Your donkeys and my donkeys don't always act the same.)

Hand 1:

I agree that a J is the only hand that is being represented. However, there are many hands that the donkey could have played a bit differently here. I think 77-TT are pretty common. Other possibilities include Q6, A6, K6, 22-55. Occasionally this is even air.

One thing that I've noticed about bad players is that, while I am absolutely terrified of overcallers on boards like this, they tend to expect it and ignore it. Therefore, when the original bettor checks, I think many donkeys decide that no strong hands are out.

Another thing about bad players is that they tend to play horribly on boards like this one.

I'll think about hand 2.

Re: \"I have a big hand and pot odds. I fold\"
 

wow how can you possibly justify folding hand 1??

Hand 2 is close, I might crycall also, even though I have layed overpairs down in this spot vs the right opponents.

Re: \"I have a big hand and pot odds. I fold\"
 

Hmmm, interesting... Blinds level on hand #2 would be nice to know. Anyway, I guess it's a good fold... Hand #1 I'd shove because I simply can't put him on quads or Q's over J's.

If OP was some random 'enthusiast' or something, he'd be flamed for folding #1, but since it's adanthar, people are paying more attention to the hand. And, strangely enough, the more I look at it, the more I'm convinced adanthar is behind here. I'm confused...

Re: \"I have a big hand and pot odds. I fold\"
 

I talked to you about hand #1 before, I still think you have to call here. If I get AA with this short a stack I'm not going to fold it.

Bet/folding the turn in hand #2 is terrible in my opinion, at least in this tournament. I'm full potting the turn because I expect him to either be drawing to a flush, 5 outs or 2 outs. The stuper is ALL about doubling up early.

Re: \"I have a big hand and pot odds. I fold\"
 

I know you won't like this response, but you cant be serious about hand 1? Do you realize you will be left with T1600 and blinds of 100-200? While we all realize as poker players you should never give up in a tourney, this is just ridiculous. Without even going into pot odds, this is one of them situations where I believe you do or die with them aces.

Re: \"I have a big hand and pot odds. I fold\"
 

adanthar,

Hand 1 looks bad. Just don't fold [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img].

Hand 2 looks meh. 3/5 pot would be about my normal bet on this turn anyway, so i dunno why that's an issue. I think this river is one those situations where folding wouldn't be a big mistake, and calling wouldn't be a big mistake. It's pretty marginal. So I'd probably call, because I read some Matt Matros article where he said when you're in marginal situations like that, you should take the action that gains you the most information for the future.


ps -- that property exam was a goddamn trainwreck. i'm gonna cry myself to sleep.

Re: \"I have a big hand and pot odds. I fold\"
 

I can't imagine being behind more than 30% of the time in hand one. I play the dise rebuy 3 or 4 times a week. If I had to put people on hands, I'd say SB has a pp, 22-TT, and BB has KQ. Since, in the eyes of those great dise donks, you can't have an overpair, you have to call here. However, knowing the stack sizes and the final bet size is important, since BB may make a large overbet with a J. Even then I don't think you can fold. They put you on AK.

Re: \"I have a big hand and pot odds. I fold\"
 

I don't get the fold in hand 1 at all.

Re: \"I have a big hand and pot odds. I fold\"
 

the arguement "we have a short stack, so i'm not folding with aces" is stupid, but i do think we're ahead here more than 30% so i dont fold hand 1 either

hand 2, why not just check behind on the turn?

edit: 2nd thought, eh [censored] a check, and bleh probably pay him off on the end. but i'll think about that more.

Re: \"I have a big hand and pot odds. I fold\"
 

I mean I call hand #1 because I'm steaming that I've only got 2600 after the break, 1600 after this hand. I'd probably also try and persuade myself that the two aces in my hand make it less likley that he's calling with a J etc. etc.

However assuming you are BB and have J10. How do you play this? Check, call, push?

I like the message in the post. Some of my most vehement poker arguments have dealt with the same issue. "Look man, I don't care how bad he is, what pot odds I'm being laid, how much I've invested in the pot, what dire straits folding leaves me in. I am sure I'm behind and I'm folding like a little girl."

There are times like Scotty Nguyen had it: you call here and it's all over baby.

I don't actually think hand one is one of those times, most of the time. Hand two I can't fold because of pot odds, because he's so bad, because folding leaves me in such duire straits etc. etc.

Re: \"I have a big hand and pot odds. I fold\"
 

Hand 1:

I know you prefer to not talk about the flop. But, I thnk the flop action is a mistake. Both blinds calling preflop means that they either have something or they are donks. Either way I think you are giving up value by not making a bet on the flop. Preferably a weakish bet that looks like you missed the flop. Obv, you are hoping for a reraise so you can jam or you are building the pot to give odds to call when you jam the turn.

On the turn, with your stack and the action so far, you either fold or raise. If you call the turn knowing you are beat, then you obv have to fold the river.

Hand2:

I think perfect action preflop and flop. The 2 on the turn is not likely to have helped the villain. I think you are most often way ahead here, so I would make a pot-committing bet or just shove the turn.

I think you almost always have to pay off the river, unless you are confident that the vill was on the draw.

Re: \"I have a big hand and pot odds. I fold\"
 

Wow. If anyone but andathar posts Hand 1, then get ripped apart. I, for one, think this a very bad fold.

Edit: And why is checking the flop so "standard?" I think betting this flop is perfectly fine, if not preferrable. But then again, this assumes I will be going broke anyway if one of the Villains has a J. Clearly this does not apply to you.

Re: \"I have a big hand and pot odds. I fold\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
the arguement "we have a short stack, so i'm not folding with aces" is stupid

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really. I think it implies a lot of the other factors that you're thinking are legit. Besides, when you get AA on a short stack, you should be focused on the best way to get all your opponent's chips in, instead of how to wiggle away leaving yourself 8BB or less. Just my opinion.

Re: \"I have a big hand and pot odds. I fold\"
 

I love it. It's posts like this that cause mediocre players to misapply an expert's strategy in a misguided attempt to improve their game (and allowing me to take their chips).

Re: \"I have a big hand and pot odds. I fold\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
I love it. It's posts like this that cause mediocre players to misapply an expert's strategy in a misguided attempt to improve their game (and allowing me to take their chips).

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right, this is actually a problem and I don't feel like turning it into a Gigabet post. So let me put it this way: in #1, I was very, very sure that I was beat. In fact, almost by definition [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img], I was surer than Hand 2, where I was also very sure but let pot odds sway the decision. I do not post this hand unless I have complete confidence that I'm beat, because obviously, on its own this play is indefensible and if anyone else posts it they *do* get torn apart.

What I'm trying to get across is that calling on very ugly boards with good odds "because I have kings" when villain has been repping the nuts every step of the way is pretty overrated.

(if you are reading this and playing $10 tournaments, forget everything I just said)

edit: I can bet the flop, too, but either way this is fairly normal on WAWB boards and I like taking more risks when that short early.

Re: \"I have a big hand and pot odds. I fold\"
 

I think the dise 30r, is about as donkish a field as you are going to find.

[ QUOTE ]
The turn is a J, and a very interesting thing happens; SB leads 400 into the 1800 pot and BB calls. I decide my hand probably sucks and overcall, waiting for the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is just no way, your hand 'probably sucks' based on this action. It is just not possible. Even donkeys arent that consistent. Do they play a J like that, probably. Do they play about 150 other hands like that too? Yeah. I havent even reached the point where am not happy about getting my chips in.

Hand 2, meh. Yeah, I make this call too much.

Re: \"I have a big hand and pot odds. I fold\"
 

Can we get this straight? You know you are beat in #1 because you have checked the flop, flat-called the turn, BB has seen this and still makes a big bet on the river? He must, therefore be looking at a jack and thinks he's as likley to get action with a big bet as a small one versus whoever has the biggest boat? (Seems pretty logical now, actually, but it's worth explaining your read)

I repeat my question, is this how you play trip jacks on the flop, quads on the turn?

Re: \"I have a big hand and pot odds. I fold\"
 

Um, after busting out of the last two tournaments on hands like this, I would have to agree. Rebuy donks play these flops horribly. I called/raised all-in in both situations and they showed an underpair/overpair respectively (which both hit 2-outers yeah!). They see a paired board and think their pair is good often. When the third jack comes all they see is full house. That's just in my limited experience.

Re: \"I have a big hand and pot odds. I fold\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
edit: I can bet the flop, too, but either way this is fairly normal on WAWB boards and I like taking more risks when that short early.

[/ QUOTE ]

Understood, but I don't think this board qualifies as a strictly WAWB board. What I'm thinking is, how do we get the most out of hands like 22-55 and 77-TT. I think checking here will often be read for extreme strength whereas a c-bet will be viewed just as that, and some guy with 33 might decide to peel one off and see how you play the turn.

Re: \"I have a big hand and pot odds. I fold\"
 

The river is a Q. SB checks. BB now bets some random large number of chips. I have 1600 behind and will win 4200 when I am good, but don't feel like bothering and muck anyway.

http://www.pukeplanet.com/pukeimages/toilet_puke.jpg

Re: \"I have a big hand and pot odds. I fold\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
Pot odds are a great thing, except when they aren't.

[/ QUOTE ] On the river, where your call closes the action, pot odds are the ONLY thing. If you feel that you have a greater than 20% chance of winning the hand, you call. Otherwise, you fold. End of story (well, I'm sure there are borderline situations where you might make a +cEV fold).

What I think you mean by your statement is that you didn't adequately consider your chances of winning this hand, because you figured that, eh, 20% is good enough to call in any situation. I know you're not thinking that you made a bad call because you happened to lose this hand (even though that's how your post reads).

Re: \"I have a big hand and pot odds. I fold\"
 

So, so gross.

And yet necessary.

Brad

Re: \"I have a big hand and pot odds. I fold\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
What I think you mean by your statement is that you didn't adequately consider your chances of winning this hand, because you figured that, eh, 20% is good enough to call in any situation. I know you're not thinking that you made a bad call because you happened to lose this hand (even though that's how your post reads).

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I'm thinking that I could be getting around 1000:1 to close the action, and with my read, the call would be wrong.

Re: \"I have a big hand and pot odds. I fold\"
 

how wonderfully tommy angelo of you. for the record i call here, but i understand your point.

Re: \"I have a big hand and pot odds. I fold\"
 

Meh. Sorry guys, I was trying to make a point but obviously picked a too far out there hand for it.

edit: did I mention (I know I did to you, heh) that way back at the start of my poker career, tommy angelo was my role model and I wound up check/calling quads 3 times once? That was fun.

Re: \"I have a big hand and pot odds. I fold\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
Wow. If anyone but andathar posts Hand 1, then get ripped apart. I, for one, think this a very bad fold.

Edit: And why is checking the flop so "standard?" I think betting this flop is perfectly fine, if not preferrable. But then again, this assumes I will be going broke anyway if one of the Villains has a J. Clearly this does not apply to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

heh, he's still getting ripped apart for it. However yeah, Adanthar's point is still an excellent one, regardless whether the examples are accurate - a ton of people (including myself) make some pretty damn bad river calls. While they don't have to be correct very often to be profitable, a lot of them aren't profitable enough, and at the very least you should analyze what he could have before you call.

Re: \"I have a big hand and pot odds. I fold\"
 

Adanthar, I respect your hand reading ability as much as anyone. But I have played the 30r on dise a decent amount. You mentioned that you dont have any experience with the players, I think you are over-estimating how often your read is correct here.

Re: \"I have a big hand and pot odds. I fold\"
 

what the f---, call hand 1 in a quick second

make a PSB on the flop and turn for #2

Re: \"I have a big hand and pot odds. I fold\"
 

I like you hand in hand 1 if one of your aces was a king, except I would probably have called the river.

Re: \"I have a big hand and pot odds. I fold\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
I like you hand in hand 1 if one of your aces was a king, except I would probably have called the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Soss,

I realize there is some hyperbole involved, but if you call AK on the river, [img-vomiting guy.]

Re: \"I have a big hand and pot odds. I fold\"
 

on that we can agree.

Re: \"I have a big hand and pot odds. I fold\"
 

Even hand #1 sucks, I think Adanthar's general point about overvaluing pot odds when calling in the river it's a very good one.

I'd like to continue posting in this thread, but I just can't stand that guy vomiting.