Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

Better to play a lower limit so you can play correctly.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

We already have our fishy little hands on his co-written SSH book. LOL [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

Just a bump to remind everyone to add this to your favorites.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

This thread is great because it's like a teaser of SSHE.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

Well as long as this thread is bumped...

Can I add a thread to favorites without replying? I don't want to be a richard and clutter the board up.

Edit: Oh I see. See what happens when I dont read the whole thing and want to save it for later?

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

at the bottom of the page is a link that says "Favorite Thread! (toggle)"

just click that [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

[ QUOTE ]
at the bottom of the page is a link that says "Favorite Thread! (toggle)"

just click that [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I find it funny that this question has now been asked and answered twice within this thread.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

I'll remember to get you that beer [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

btw, i played limmit 0.5/1 till a few days ago. I then tried the 25 buyin no limmit for once. Totally different game indeed. It did teach me something though. When i stepped back to a limmit table, first hand i played, i won the pot after raising with 2 overcards (AK) on a paired flop and have them all fold inlcuding even the bettor.
I figured with a paired flop there is twice the chance that noone would have been hit by it, and if i am called, it would probably provide me a free card.
I would have never dared to do this before i played no limmit.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/9382/miller5zk.jpg

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

Bump. This thread needs a friggin bump.

Incredible advice--maybe everyone who was targeted by aK13 can read this and work on an aggro style?

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

It was this post that recently had me taking down a 20BB pot in a 3-6 game. I had A8s, one of the players tried a fancy river bluff with A234x on board. One player called(with QQ), another folded (I think he had top pair as well, maybe a better kicker) and I overcalled because the pot was HUGE.

Had it not been for this post I probably would have folded on the turn or river.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

Somebody has been hitting the herb a little too hard.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

You know, I remember that section in SSHE but forgot it....I NEED TO RE-READ IT!!! I think this is a leak of mine.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

Holy cow, this is bumptastic!!

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

Largely on the great info in this amazing thread, I have just placed an order for SSHE and GSIHE.

Thanks!

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

"Gutshot straight draw: about 11-1 (actually 10.75-1 to the turn, 10.5 to one to the river)"

You mean the odds to make one with 2 to go vs. 1? That's not right.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

[ QUOTE ]
"Gutshot straight draw: about 11-1 (actually 10.75-1 to the turn, 10.5 to one to the river)"

You mean the odds to make one with 2 to go vs. 1? That's not right.

[/ QUOTE ]

no, he means that if you have a gutshot on flop, you are10.75:1 to make it on the turn.

if you have a gutshot on the turn you are about 10.5:1 to make it on the river. This is because of the 1 less card in the deck

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

[I see I am late with this; I just joined, and the shoe fits]

I think you're quite right in general, and I have been guilty of far too many wimp-outs.
One shouldn't take this as a license to ignore obvious warning signs (you drive TPTK
into a scary board against three non-maniacal opponents
and it comes to you two bets cold on the turn, for
example; don't laugh, I did this and got shown a
straight AND a flush).

Kicker trouble often means you played a hand that should
have gone muckety-muck pre-flop; I cured my addiction to
weak aces by sorting my pokertracker stats by BB won/hand
and noticing that AXo for X<8 was prominent in the
red-ink zone.

There are still plenty of cases where the cure is
a table change, though!

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

Damn, Ed I really like you man. You are funny and your language is ok with me. Hell, I will buy your book as soon as possible.
Ty

Re: Funny hand just happened in response to this
 

Well said!!!! I´ve allready won $200 thanks to u´re book (lot´s of money for a poor student [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]), so I would buy u a beer anytime! But what about a hand like this ( " http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...8086&page= " ). Is folding clearly wrong here?

Made a new year promise right now to fold less (after this post) and value bet more on the river. So...see ya in Vegas!!!

Re: Funny hand just happened in response to this
 

[ QUOTE ]
u´re

[/ QUOTE ]

This fills me with rage.

Re: Funny hand just happened in response to this
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
u´re

[/ QUOTE ]

This fills me with rage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tell me about it, everyone knows it's "ur" and not "u're" in this context.

Re: Funny hand just happened in response to this
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
u´re

[/ QUOTE ]

This fills me with rage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Throw in this little nugget:

[ QUOTE ]
lot´s

[/ QUOTE ]

An'd I'm read'y t'o sli'ng a rop'e o'ver th'e raft'er a'nd ha'ng somebod'y.

Re: Funny hand just happened in response to this
 

Ahem.

Reged: 12/19/05
Posts: 18
Loc: Sweden

Re: Funny hand just happened in response to this
 

Okay, that lets him off the hook for lot's.

But u're is still -EV English, I don't give a fØØk whether he's Swedish or not.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

I’m just at the stage where I have tightened up considerably on my starting hand selection. This in itself (and some basic post-flop awareness) is allowing me to hold my head above water (in fact make a small “profit” at the nano tables).

I understand the basis of what Ed is saying: “The problem is that many people are playing only when they are a huge favourite to win- and that they should be playing EVERY hand that they are a FAVOURITE to win, regardless of the size of the edge. Every hand that you DON’T play, when you DO have an edge- leaves money on the table (the amount is proportionate to your Pot Equity” Is this correct?

My problem is that I am not yet apt at systematically determining if and when I have an edge. I assume this come from routinely:-

-Identifying the nuts
-calculating number of outs
-Comparing no. of outs to pot odds

I assume that it’s better to stay very tight and concentrate on learning to loosen up gradually? This will allow me to play more and more hands until EVENTUALLY I’m playing ALL the +EV hands. Like (I assume) a l lot of people, I am folding too much post-flop. I think this is my next biggest leak and hence what I need to concentrate on next.

Regards,
Ian

Re: A note about \"pot odds\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why should you continue when the pot is big but fold when it is small? 8-to-1 is 8-to-1, after all. The reason is that later bets are smaller in proportion to the pot when it is big than when it is small. Calling down with a marginal made hand is cheaper when the pot contains 16 small bets and it is 2 small bets to you than when it contains only 8 small bets and it is 1 small bet to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Could be missing something here - but isn't 16:2 the same as 8:1 ??

Re: A note about \"pot odds\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why should you continue when the pot is big but fold when it is small? 8-to-1 is 8-to-1, after all. The reason is that later bets are smaller in proportion to the pot when it is big than when it is small. Calling down with a marginal made hand is cheaper when the pot contains 16 small bets and it is 2 small bets to you than when it contains only 8 small bets and it is 1 small bet to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Could be missing something here - but isn't 16:2 the same as 8:1 ??

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but he's talking about the bets on the later streets as well. Say you're getting 16-2 and you call, everyone else folds. Now 18 sb in the pot, or 9 bb on the turn. When you are bet into on the turn, you are now getting 10-1 on your call. But in an 8 sb pot, you call one, now there are 9 sb in the pot, or 4.5 BB on the turn. So when you call on the turn, now you are only getting 5.5-1. In theory, it has now become more expensive for you to call due to the fact that the pot is small.

Re: A note about \"pot odds\"
 

Thanks Vibesman - I knew that - I was just testing you all [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Seriously - I understand it now. Thanks.

Re: A note about \"pot odds\"
 

Seriously, it's been 4 months since this has been bumped?

Shame.

Re: A note about \"pot odds\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why should you continue when the pot is big but fold when it is small? 8-to-1 is 8-to-1, after all. The reason is that later bets are smaller in proportion to the pot when it is big than when it is small. Calling down with a marginal made hand is cheaper when the pot contains 16 small bets and it is 2 small bets to you than when it contains only 8 small bets and it is 1 small bet to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Could be missing something here - but isn't 16:2 the same as 8:1 ??

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but he's talking about the bets on the later streets as well. Say you're getting 16-2 and you call, everyone else folds. Now 18 sb in the pot, or 9 bb on the turn. When you are bet into on the turn, you are now getting 10-1 on your call. But in an 8 sb pot, you call one, now there are 9 sb in the pot, or 4.5 BB on the turn. So when you call on the turn, now you are only getting 5.5-1. In theory, it has now become more expensive for you to call due to the fact that the pot is small.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't remember seeing this earlier, but I actually disagree with this pretty adamently. The main area where people get this post horribly wrong is that they forgot how the pot was made big. It's not like Party just magically threw 16 SB into the pot as part of some promotion and also happened to make the two bets facing you the result of altering their softare to make the first bet on the flop double sized. No, a 16 SB pot with 2 bets to you is the product of not only a lot of callers, but also bettors and raisers. And the more betting and raising there is, the more marginal anything that's not the nuts starts looking.

The fact of the matter is, top pair with a medium kicker starts to look like a marginal, but decent hand facing one bet, but it starts looking pretty bad facing two, even in a large pot. It's even in SSH. NPA himself says that you should be much more inclined to fold getting 16:2 than getting 8:1 because the probability that you're beaten when facing two people who like their hands, one of whom really likes his hand, is much, much greater than beating out one guy who likes his hand. This is the same idea as being hesitant to overcall, but magnified even more.

Edit: This is different if you have a draw instead of a made hand. You should be more inclined to cold call on the flop with a weakish draw to the nuts getting 16:2 than you should with a marginal made hand that may or may not be best getting 16:2. With a draw in a big pot, your draw will be priced better on the big streets AND you're more likely to get paid off by people calling and hoping in the big pot. With a marginal made hand that doesn't have many outs, say, KK on an Axx flop facing 16:2, you're more likely to be at a strong disadvantage and burning money en route to the river.

Re: A note about \"pot odds\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why should you continue when the pot is big but fold when it is small? 8-to-1 is 8-to-1, after all. The reason is that later bets are smaller in proportion to the pot when it is big than when it is small. Calling down with a marginal made hand is cheaper when the pot contains 16 small bets and it is 2 small bets to you than when it contains only 8 small bets and it is 1 small bet to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Could be missing something here - but isn't 16:2 the same as 8:1 ??

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but he's talking about the bets on the later streets as well. Say you're getting 16-2 and you call, everyone else folds. Now 18 sb in the pot, or 9 bb on the turn. When you are bet into on the turn, you are now getting 10-1 on your call. But in an 8 sb pot, you call one, now there are 9 sb in the pot, or 4.5 BB on the turn. So when you call on the turn, now you are only getting 5.5-1. In theory, it has now become more expensive for you to call due to the fact that the pot is small.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't remember seeing this earlier, but I actually disagree with this pretty adamently. The main area where people get this post horribly wrong is that they forgot how the pot was made big. It's not like Party just magically threw 16 SB into the pot as part of some promotion and also happened to make the two bets facing you the result of altering their softare to make the first bet on the flop double sized. No, a 16 SB pot with 2 bets to you is the product of not only a lot of callers, but also bettors and raisers. And the more betting and raising there is, the more marginal anything that's not the nuts starts looking.

The fact of the matter is, top pair with a medium kicker starts to look like a marginal, but decent hand facing one bet, but it starts looking pretty bad facing two, even in a large pot. It's even in SSH. NPA himself says that you should be much more inclined to fold getting 16:2 than getting 8:1 because the probability that you're beaten when facing two people who like their hands, one of whom really likes his hand, is much, much greater than beating out one guy who likes his hand. This is the same idea as being hesitant to overcall, but magnified even more.

Edit: This is different if you have a draw instead of a made hand. You should be more inclined to cold call on the flop with a weakish draw to the nuts getting 16:2 than you should with a marginal made hand that may or may not be best getting 16:2. With a draw in a big pot, your draw will be priced better on the big streets AND you're more likely to get paid off by people calling and hoping in the big pot. With a marginal made hand that doesn't have many outs, say, KK on an Axx flop facing 16:2, you're more likely to be at a strong disadvantage and burning money en route to the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

To all the newer multitalbers, please read and remember the part in bold. Don't just look at your hand and the pot and say, hey, I've got this and the pot is this, so I call. Think about every click. Say why you are doing something out loud if you have to. Just tell you wife you thought she was in the shower or something. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

i just heard about this post on an article on ed millers blog. on ed millers blog. omg i cant believe i missed it before anyway if any1 else needs to read it ill give it a big fat BUMPOOOOOOOOYA!!!!

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

Sounds like you need to check out the rest of the links at the bottom of the FAQ.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sounds like you need to check out the rest of the links at the bottom of the FAQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

huh? what you talkin bout willis?

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sounds like you need to check out the rest of the links at the bottom of the FAQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

huh? what you talkin bout willis?

[/ QUOTE ]

o duh i see it now. thanks a bunch dude ill be reading all night lol.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

still sad that now when this post gets bumped eds name isnt red [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

bump - so relevant right now....

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

There was a post just this morning where someone limped in with A3s on the button after two limpers. The big blind raise behind and everyone called. The flop was AQ2, and the action went BB bet, one limper called, and it was your action. You have top frickin pair in a big (i.e. raised) pot, and it is one bet to you. The BB's bet shows no more strength than what he showed when he raised before the flop. He could easily have KQ or TT or 76s. The limper called... that means he has.. well, two cards. You are getting 11-1 on a call, and did I mention that you have top frickin pair?

[/ QUOTE ]

In SSHE there is a hand on pg 266 that has Ac7c in middle position and the board is AdTd9s and it is 2 bets to you and 10 small bets in the pot and it is a labeled a clear fold. Here it is almost the same hand except it is now 1 bet to you and twice the odds ie 11 to 1 and the advice is "do not fold". So I have to assume that somewhere between 5 to 1 and 11 to 1 there exists a sharp divide, please tell me where it is ie 7 to 1, 2 bets to you, when do you change gears?

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

well 2 bets to you is a lot different than 1 bet to you