Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

Going back to read some of Ed Miller's old posts and found this.

Excellent. Every novice 2+2'er should read.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Going back to read some of Ed Miller's old posts and found this.

Excellent. Every novice 2+2'er should read.

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends on what you mean by "novice." If you're talking about someone new to serious poker, I disagree. I read this about a month into my foray into on-line poker, tried to follow this advice, and got absolutely killed. This post (and the information contained herein) needs to be tempered with a solid background in the fundamentals (i.e., experience). Once I had several thousand hands (and 2 or 3 poker books) under my belt, it all started making sense, and I was able to apply it appropriately.

Don't get me wrong, it's good information. However, it's like trying to teach a kid to drive using a Ferrari -- it makes a lot more sense to teach 'em the basics in dad's Oldsmobile and then they can learn the Ferrari later. A little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing and I don't want the brand new folks to end up wrapped around a telephone pole. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

bump

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

I just read this post, and I won my next two hands. Thanks, Ed, that's over 10BB in my pocket!

in other words, *bump*

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

One of my favorite threads since I started scanning this place months ago.

"They won't buy it, because they're fish, and they don't care"

Yeah they will. Ever hear that phrase, "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing?" The same way the average joe traps himself by trying to rigorously apply book-learned advice for higher level usually tighter games to lower looser games, he'll just grab the next book and mis-apply that too.

From UUdevil:

"3) You might win the pot right here (which might well have happened in this case)."

Yes, but you might also get people with horrible hands to pay you all the way to the river, bluffing or calling all the way. This happens with me an awful lot. By having just a little more reasonable pre-flop standards than they do, you often wind up getting these guys to pay you off all the way for very minimal risk. Isn't it better to have them (and maybe all their pals do so sometimes) pay you off than kick out their crappy hands and scoop a tiny pot?

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

no. it's better to be closer to 100% likely to drag several small pots than it is to have players chase you down for a sub-optimal chance at a big pot.

You're welcome to take on the big scores. While you're dragging the occasional 25-30BB pot, i'll chip away at the regular 5-7BB pots and we'll see who gets richer first.

A pretty naff example of this is in super/system.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

[ QUOTE ]
no. it's better to be closer to 100% likely to drag several small pots than it is to have players chase you down for a sub-optimal chance at a big pot.

You're welcome to take on the big scores. While you're dragging the occasional 25-30BB pot, i'll chip away at the regular 5-7BB pots and we'll see who gets richer first.

A pretty naff example of this is in super/system.

[/ QUOTE ]

*laughing* well I'd like to see the game where you have close to a hundred percent chance of dragging most of your small pots.

I think the better point is that all kinds of game textures can be profitable. In the games where the pots are routinely huge and you have trouble driving people out, well you may win fewer pots but its nice to drag those monsters. In the less raucous games where you have good control over the table and can drag a lot of small pots...well that's good too.

Recognizing and adjusting to the table...not a bad way to play.

--Zetack

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

I guess that begs the question of what a big pot is? When do I know I'm at that point where I can call a pot down?

The whole way, I kept hearing Ed\'s voice...
 

Background-

My daughter is still asleep, so I'm going to, hopefully, play through an orbit before she wakes up. First hand at this table, no read, other than they look like people I've seen here before . . . only with different names. I'll put my thoughts here as they apply.


Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (Left handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $2.

I'm not sure if this is a +EV move, or not. I usually wait until the BB unless I am going to be CO, then I take my chances.

UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 raises, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, Hero (poster) calls, Button 3-bets, SB calls, BB calls, MP1 caps, MP2 calls, Hero calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Obviously, from the start, I'm hoping for a flush, so a big pot with lots of callers is what I was hoping for. I am uncomfortable with the raises and re-raises, but if there's one thing that brings down big pocket pairs, it's a flush, so I'll take a look at the flop. If I don't like it, I muck.

Flop: (24 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(6 players)</font>

SB checks, BB checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets . . .

Not great. Here's where I start hearing Ed's voice asking, "How big is the pot." And I "start thinking about how I am going to win it." Another 6? Runner-Runner for the flush? King? I have enough options and the pot is big enough to give me odds for these possibilities, so I'm in.

Hero calls, Button raises, SB folds, BB folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls,

A raise. Not too much to worry about, probably still a big pocket pair. Ed wouldn't like me folding at this point, so . . .

Hero calls.

Turn: (16 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>

Good, but not great. I am still behind KK, 22, 44 and probably some other stuff that I've been known to overlook. KK seems like the most logical at this point. Let's figure out where we stand and get some more money into this pot.

MP1 checks, MP2 bets, Hero raises, Button 3-bets, MP1 calls, MP2 calls $6.50 (All-In),

Ooops. There's your KK. Well, this pot is too big to get away from now. If he has "The Cowboys" (props to VVP) I can still win with a 6. And I have pot odds to risk that he doesn't have KK (220:1), that I can catch one of 2 remaing 6's (23:1) or Party will disconnect him (50:50)so . . .

Hero caps, Button calls, MP1 calls.

Results, River, and everything except a [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in white below: <font color="white">

River: (30.62 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 players, 1 all-in)

Hmmm . . . that looks like Planter's* to me Yay! Thanks to The Voice of Ed Miller (which in my mind sounds a lot like Lou Grant) and my lovely sleepy 2-year old for the biggest win of my budding poker career! Let's get some more money into this pot!

MP1 checks, Hero bets, Button calls, MP1 calls.

In hindsight, a check-raise would have been cool, stylish, profitable, and most importantly, extra-painful here, but I just wasn't thinking clearly

Final Pot: 33.62 BB

MP1 shows Ac Ks (two pair, kings and sixes).
MP2 shows 2s 2d (full house, twos full of sixes).
Hero shows 6c Kc (full house, sixes full of kings).
Button shows Ad As (two pair, aces and sixes).
Outcome: Hero wins 33.62 BB.

Someone, somewhere (probably on this forum) is posting a bad beat about how he lost a $125 pot with AA to some fish with K6s. The reality is, the raising and re-raising gave me pot odds the whole way that made it illogical for me to fold.

*I am claiming to have just made up 'Planter's' . . . as in 'The Nuts.' So if you ever here VVP use it, you can know he stole it from me! Thanks again, Ed.</font>

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

That made me chuckle. Thanks!
/M

Re: The whole way, I kept hearing Ed\'s voice...
 

If he had KK, he'd still win if a six fell. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

You'd have (6K)66K, for sixes full of kings. He'd have (KK)66K, for kings full of sixes.

-DB

Re: The whole way, I kept hearing Ed\'s voice...
 

[ QUOTE ]

Preflop: Hero is CO with 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $2.

I'm not sure if this is a +EV move, or not. I usually wait until the BB unless I am going to be CO, then I take my chances.



[/ QUOTE ]

Ordinarily in a full handed game you pay the blind and the small blind to see ten hands. That's 1.5 small bets for ten hands or .15 small bets per hand. If you post in the Co you are paying 1 small bet to see seven hands. Thats .14 small bets per hand. Its a bargain!!! Plus if you hit a "BB special" you are actually in position for the entire hand.


[ QUOTE ]

Flop: (24 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(6 players)</font>

SB checks, BB checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets . . .

Not great. Here's where I start hearing Ed's voice asking, "How big is the pot." And I "start thinking about how I am going to win it." Another 6? Runner-Runner for the flush? King? I have enough options and the pot is big enough to give me odds for these possibilities, so I'm in.


[/ QUOTE ]

Do you really need Ed to tell you this? Seem to me he's talking about even more marginal situations than this. At this point in the hand I certainly wouldn't have decided somebody has KK and I doubt they have 3,5 for the straight and so I'm thinking two pair ain't bad and trips would be great and the odds of hitting one of those is 8.5-1. Simple pot odds would seem to be enough to keep you playing when there are 24 small bets in the pot before anybody even start the flop betting.

Lets not forget that simple concept eh? [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

--Zetack

Re: The whole way, I kept hearing Ed\'s voice...
 

[ QUOTE ]
If he had KK, he'd still win if a six fell. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

You'd have (6K)66K, for sixes full of kings. He'd have (KK)66K, for kings full of sixes.

-DB

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but the other guy had AK, so that would have been 5 K's!

[ QUOTE ]
and probably some other stuff that I've been known to overlook.

[/ QUOTE ]

See what I mean? I tend to overlook stuff. That happens to me fairly often where where I do dumb things like re-raise the low end of a straight, or when I've hit my straight with 4 non-helpful suited cards on the board and stuff like that, but I am definitley getting better. And I win, alot for an idiot. Ok then, Planter's will have to be when you think you have the nuts, but you don't, but you win anyways.

Thanks for the correction. I wish my time to edit hadn't passed.

Six months later...
 

Here is a repost of something I wrote on UPF to a couple people who were discussing this post.

************************************************

When I wrote this, I had no idea it would still be quoted six months hence. It was a specific plea for the specific players who posted on the Microlimit forum in January to stop folding hands like top pair or an overpair for one bet on the turn (often not even a raise... just a single bet) in huge (bigger than ten bet) pots simply because "I figured I had to be beaten somewhere." They were drawing totally irrational conclusions about the quality of their opponents' hands, and then making ridiculous and VERY expensive folds based on those conclusions.

The main problem these guys had was "Monsters Under the Bed" syndrome. They constantly overestimated the quality of their opponents' hands, and that left them always feeling like they were either drawing against a ton of outs if ahead, or drawing almost dead if behind. They didn't understand that people can bet weak hands and draws strongly sometimes... and that when the pot is big, you simply cannot allow yourself to be knocked off a good hand by someone with a weak draw.

If you have specific, credible evidence that your opponents in fact DO have the hands you fear, then fine... fold. My point is only that you really do need excellent evidence... don't just assume that you have to be beaten or someone (but I don't know who) simply MUST have had a flush draw.

Finally, a single turn bet is almost never specific, credible evidence. People screw around with turn bets (as opposed to turn 3-bets) all the time. Just because you raised the flop, and now they bet into you again on the turn, does NOT mean overwhelming strength.

BTW, I appreciate that you find my post thought-provoking. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Ed

Re: Six months later...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Here is a repost of something I wrote on UPF to a couple people who were discussing this post.

[/ QUOTE ]

What the hell are doing posting outside of 2+2?

We own your ass!

You can spam them to sell your book, but no advice for pete's sake!

Re: Six months later...
 

UPF?

Re: Six months later...
 

I'm guessing United Poker Forum

http://www.unitedpokerforum.com/

-Sent

Re: Six months later...
 

Cool, thanks.

Gonna have to take a look at it later.

Re: Six months later...
 

We own your ass!

I don't think you should be running your mouth after missing your penalty.

Re: Six months later...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Just because you raised the flop, and now they bet into you again on the turn, does NOT mean overwhelming strength.
Ed

[/ QUOTE ]

In the average low limit game on Party, my experience in this situation is that the guy just made a decent pair, and has already forgotten that I raised on the flop.

Re: I Have A Secret
 

I have printed out the oringinal post and read it every day before I go to the poker room. Sort of a daily affirmation. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] It definitely helps me stay focused. In fact if I feel I'm straying off the path of goodness and light during a game I'll go to the restroom, whip it out (I'm talking about the printout of the Ed's message -- get your mind out of the gutter), and read it again.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

Bump in honor of my buying SSH. Its great so far Ed. congrats.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

This advice isn't just for hold'em, I was in a limit O8/b, and ended up on the river with a busted low draw and a 5-high flush, the button bet, and I folded - then I noticed that there were 16BBs in the pot. 16BB! How many hours of play will it take to win that back? And, I was up against 2-pair - DOH!

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

How many big bets should be in the pot for me to call a gutshot straight?

I think this question belongs in this thread due to the fact it will help me crush the micro-limit games.

[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

WHEN THE POT IS BIG DO NOT FOLD DECENT HANDS FOR ONE BET! Just stop doing it.


This is absolutely great advice. One problem that I've encountered trying to "crush" micro-limit games is that I tend to play far too weak-tight, giving my oppenents too much credit. Won a huge hand with J8s today, flopping top pair (jacks) with a flush draw and calling down a maniac with only an 8 kicker on the river.

I personally swear never to lay down a decent hand for one bet at $0.25/$0.50 evah again. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

[ QUOTE ]
no. it's better to be closer to 100% likely to drag several small pots than it is to have players chase you down for a sub-optimal chance at a big pot.

You're welcome to take on the big scores. While you're dragging the occasional 25-30BB pot, i'll chip away at the regular 5-7BB pots and we'll see who gets richer first.

A pretty naff example of this is in super/system.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since you want to claim it's a "naff example" - perhaps you might want to check that the passage in Super System that you are referring to is in the No-Limit Holdem section of the book.

Yes, you have a much higher chance of scooping 100% of your small pots in No-Limit. You can bet the pot. When you can only bet 1/7th or 1/8th of these pots in limit play, I find it nearly impossible to believe that you have a showdown percentage anywhere NEAR 100%.

Of course, Ed Miller's only a 2+2 author, what the hell does he know, right?

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

Awsome post thanks.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Awsome post thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

thanks to u for bringing this post back to the top, I hadn't read this post, and wasnt even reg'd at the time it was made, so I'm glad to have read it and it reaffirmed many of the things i learned in SSH i was straying away from because sometimes i just plain puss out. In the past few hours after reading it I'm now playing much more agreesively post-flop, and its working overall so far....

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok. Every one of you now officially owes me a beer next time you come to Vegas. Don't think I'm not gonna collect, either...

[/ QUOTE ]
Not that the chances of me coming to Vegas any time soon are great, but when I do I'll definately will buy you a beer.

This is just amazing advice. I just hope not too many people will read it, but at the tables where I've played in the time since I read this post, they sure haven't. They actually fold left and right, I win _way_ more pots than I should. Or ... well, you know what I mean.

The Ed Miller Beer Foundation
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok. Every one of you now officially owes me a beer next time you come to Vegas. Don't think I'm not gonna collect, either...

[/ QUOTE ]

I have an idea! I have never been to Vegas, and am not likely to go in the forseeable future. I have some buddies going however, and I showed them your picture and told them to buy you a beer if they run into you. This got me thinking, even if I was in Vegas, it would be unlikely that I would bump into you.......so

I propose the Ed Miller Beer Foundation

You give us a list of your favorite bars in Vegas, places you are likely to frequent on a fairly regular basis. When we go to Vegas, we drop by one of these establishments, and 'buy you a beer", meaning they put one aside for you. You would never have to pay for beer again!

[img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

I saw this post this morning in response to a thread about why people play crappy cards....

[ QUOTE ]
I feel your pain brother. brettbrettr was at my table today and raised it to 3 bets with Q9s UTG. Of course, by the turn he had the flush and my 2 pair was worthless. Very next hand he 3 bet my raise with JJ. Flop was 989 with 2 suited. I bet he raised, I re-raised because this guy LOVES to call and then raise the flop with any two sooted that hits the flop for him. Decent play, but I wanted him to know he was behind. turn and river were both blanks and he flips over his 9To to win. 3 betting with 9To in BB? Whatever, I wouldn't likely do it, but to each his own.


[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously this guy has trouble remembering position and action (how many times have you 3-bet UTG?). I'm also sure I never reraised with 10-9o but since adopting the SSH strategies and playing my draws aggressively when it calls for it, these guys:

1. Can't put me on a hand
2. Give me action befitting a maniac!

Thanks Ed.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I saw this post this morning in response to a thread about why people play crappy cards....

[ QUOTE ]
I feel your pain brother. brettbrettr was at my table today and raised it to 3 bets with Q9s UTG. Of course, by the turn he had the flush and my 2 pair was worthless. Very next hand he 3 bet my raise with JJ. Flop was 989 with 2 suited. I bet he raised, I re-raised because this guy LOVES to call and then raise the flop with any two sooted that hits the flop for him. Decent play, but I wanted him to know he was behind. turn and river were both blanks and he flips over his 9To to win. 3 betting with 9To in BB? Whatever, I wouldn't likely do it, but to each his own.


[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously this guy has trouble remembering position and action (how many times have you 3-bet UTG?). I'm also sure I never reraised with 10-9o but since adopting the SSH strategies and playing my draws aggressively when it calls for it, these guys:

1. Can't put me on a hand
2. Give me action befitting a maniac!

Thanks Ed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny how the person who posted that also read 2+2 and would notice this. Obviously you are the one who has trouble remembering position and action. You were UTG and I was SB. I raised appropriately with AKs to try and knock at least one person out. You re-raised me making it 3 bets to go. I called and we proceeded. Your post-flop play was very good considering the flop helped you by providing you with 2 lovely hearts to match the Q9 of hearts in your hand.

The very next hand, you were BB and I was on the button. I looked down and saw two hooks. It almost folded around the entire table and I, of course, raised. You re-raised me again and I called. Flop was 989 with the first two peeled off being spades. You bet and I raised thinking that you likely wouldn't have a 9 in your hand with that kind of action pre-flop. 99 or 88 were certainly possibilities though knowing your sometimes maniac-like play. So, I flat called and watched painfully as you flipped 9To for trip 9's.

If you would have read the thread you so eloquently stole my post from, you would have noticed that it was actually regarding what people might actually be folding if they are willing to raise or re-raise in EP with hands like 86o, Q9s, or 9To. It's interesting to see people play these kinds of hands to a raise or re-raise in bad position and then fold the very next hand that probably wasn't that much worse considering what their starting hand requirements are.

BTW, I don't think Ed would ever recommend re-raising from BB with 9To any day unless the raiser had showns over and over his likelyhood to steal with nothing. If you thought that about me, you've not been paying attention at my table.

I'm sure we'll see each other at the tables again, and when we do, maybe you'll be paying more attention.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

I'm thrilled you found this post. That's just hysterical--even though from your tone it sounds as if you're not amused.

If you have the hand histories, I'd love to see em...I don't remember reraising you from the BB with 10-9o, but I do remember the hand.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

Sorry if it sounded like I was upset as I'm not. Unfortunately, the place you and I play at does not provide hand histories at all yet. We've been pressuring Platinum Poker to start providing them as well as providing compatability with Poker Tracker. Like I said in my followup post @ VP, congrats to you on winning those two hands. I do remember distinctly what you held in those two hands though. For some reason you always remember the hands you lost to hands you don't think you should've lost against. I'll give you credit on playing those hands that way makes it very difficult to get a read on you. But at the same time, I doubt those plays are going to be +EV. I'll also concede that your post-flop play is usually very good considering the texture of each flop, etc.

I could have seen you playing those cards against me if you thought that I was simply an aggressive maniac, but I'd hope you know that I am the exact opposite of that. In these low limit games I'm usually playing extremely tight and raising with the right cards in the right positions.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

Alright, the jig is up and you know I'm not a maniac. So, while it might cost me some money since we see each other often, I like you, so I'm going to tell you a not-so-secret-secret:

[ QUOTE ]
In these low limit games I'm usually playing extremely tight and raising with the right cards in the right positions.


[/ QUOTE ]

Play like this and you're leaving money on the table.

(By the by, I called in the BB with the 9-10o. I did raiseform UTG with the Q9s--the table was tight and shorthanded--but I only called the 3 bet.)

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

[ QUOTE ]
You were UTG and I was SB. I raised appropriately with AKs to try and knock at least one person out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? How do you knock people out pre-f from the sb aside from the BB? Also, if he 3 bet you from UTG then he limp re-raised, yet I haven't heard limp reraise said by either of you yet.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

I'm not sure why I'm reading this part of the thread, but you're raising AKs here for value, not to limit the field.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure why I'm reading this part of the thread,

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.

Joe,

If you want to continue arguing, hit me here:

[email protected]

We probably don't need to bore everyone....

brett

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

Sorry to drag everyone into this. I really wasn't intending for it to become an "argument" just a healthy discussion about a couple of hands. BTW, He did limp-reraise with the Q9s. I mentioned that at the other forum site and didn't put it in my post above because I figured that it would be assumed since that is the only was it would be possible.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

Cheers to Ed Miller.