A little quiz...
 

You guys should read this thread. Decide what you would do and then read Sklansky's advice.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...mp;sb=5&o=

Re: A little quiz...
 

I'll just say a couple things.

First off I basically never fold top pair for one bet on the flop. Never. To even consider doing that in kong's example hand is a ridiculous way to play poker.

Also situations where I have to actually think about pot odds are rare. I mean once an hour type stuff. And usually your implied odds are much more important that your actual pot odds.

Finally my comment at the very end the linked thread rules. That is all.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Regardless of what people think or say on this board weak/tight is not a terrible way to play micro limit games. It is true that it may not maximize winnings, but it WILL make you a winning player at this level.

I agree. You can play tight before the flop, and weak-tight poker after the flop and beat small limit games. You will not beat them for that much, but you will beat them.

But why learn to play that way? If you learn to play that way, you will not be prepared to move up. If you play that way in mid-limit games, you will not win. You will never be more than a mediocre player. The time to start learning to play correctly is now, in micro-limits. Why learn a simple strategy that beats only very soft games when you can learn a more complex strategy that can beat any limit hold 'em game? Especially when the more complex strategy will win much more in the soft games as well.

You guys are here to learn to play solid, winning poker. Solid winning poker means playing tight before the flop, tight in small pots, and aggressively in big pots.

[/ QUOTE ]

I totally agree with this. My concern was in the context that this forum is a beginning/intermediate forum. Of course everyone is here to learn how to become better poker players. I believe there is an evolutionary process that most poker players go through on thier way to becoming a good player. There are many people who post here that need to learn to crawl before they can walk. My concern was that this post may be misconstrued.

I really struggled with wether or not I should post my opinion because I have niether the experience or knowledge that you have of the game, but I thought it was important that I express my concern.

All that is required is to look at the amount of dialog this thread generated to realize what a great post this really was. I am sure I am not alone when I say I really appreciate all the time and effort you put into teaching us newbies how to play better poker.

Thanks, TheRake

I return with a reply.......
 

After a nice hiatus, I saw this post, and although I will never claim to be the poker player kong and others who have replied are, I do have a few thoughts about this (Be patient, please..... I've just come back to poker after 10 days away from it).

Some of what MK says makes great sense to me, and some I have to disagree with.

I am guilty of folding a few times for 1 or 2 bets, and thus mucking what would have been the winning hand. I hate to admit it, but I've done it.... maybe more times than I would like to remember to tell the truth.

Now, I can see how this post has gotten so much attention, but there are other things to consider in the equation here:

1. I think you have to have some sense of the types of players you're playing when it gets to marginal calls. Many micro-limit players are nothing more than calling stations or chasers. There are however, many decent players at micro-limits. Differentiating between these types of players, I think, is a must for when to make marginal calls or not. This translates into: Know Your Enemy. I read the Art of War a few months ago, and there's a quote in it that goes something like: "If you know yourself and know your enemy, you need never fear any battle, if you know yourself and not your enemy, fear should arise, but if you not yourself nor your enemy, you are doomed to defeat." I think that sums it up pretty well...... I think you have to have SOME type of read on your opponents.

2. I have seen other remarks, and I must agree to an extent that a pure newbie/beginner will struggle with this advice. I think a good understanding of hold em, pot odds, implied odds, etc. may be necessary to understand in detail what MK is talking about.

3. The advice here pertains to big pots, but alot can be said for the small pots you can steal by playing fearlessly. These can make up alot in earnings over the long run. I don't think small pots should be discouraged here, but I also agree that you may need to play "smarter" when the pot is small.

4. The advice about folding in low limits books, is, I believe, there to get players to play tighter and not so recklessly. I know I've had problems with knowing when to fold in the past (sometimes I still do), and it can get costly. I see nothing wrong with folding, but you wnat to make sure that it's not a bad fold. Top pair/big draws should never be folded..... unless you know your opponent isn't likely to be bluffing and is the type of player that "knows" what they are doing.

I think MK made a good post here, but I would like to emphesize that I believe it isn't for everyone. Those jsut starting out should play tight (even weak/tight) until you "pick-up" on the game a little more. This can be a very confusing game that takes years to learn to play proficiently, and taking it in small steps is, I believe, the best way.

PS - Nice post, MK.

'Mez

Great post...thanks for your time.
 

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

[ QUOTE ]


Now, just because you called or raised the flop does not mean that you will necessarily show the hand down. ... there is no rule that says that if you call the flop, you have committed to calling two more big bets.



[/ QUOTE ]

majorkong, I think your advice is spot on and belaboring this particular example isn't important to the advice....nevertheless I'm gonna do it simply because I think its an interesting example (heck, or maybe I'm just a jerk, kinda hard to tell...)

Calling one small bet on the flop with the 10.5-1 the pot is laying you and the top pair does lead you to three positive posibilities. 1). You hit two pair on the turn. 2). You pick up a flush draw on the turn. 3). You pick up nothing but the blind and middle player both check to you.

Also, you can still fold here with three big bets in and save four more, if the play seems to indicate that.

I just didn't think that it would be your advice to consider folding to one bet on the turn based on:
"you fold too damn much"
"did I mention that you have top frickin pair? "
and: "you should NOT be looking to fold in big pots"

And I thought the way you phrased your advice could lead to too much chasing. I loooove players who time after time turn over ace-weak kicker.

So having quibled this thing to death (sorry about that), still a great post majorkong.

--Zetack

P.S.
My girlfriend, when I told her about this thread said, "Gee, you complain frequently when you don't get enough action on your big hands....maybe he's trying to to drum up action...."

Now that made me laugh.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

[ QUOTE ]




Also, you can still fold here with three big bets in and save four more,

[/ QUOTE ]

Sheesh....three SMALL bets of course. somebody shoot my editor.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Good post! You're math just got a lot better. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Rotfl. Yeah, my head may still explode though....

Re: Funny hand just happened in response to this
 

Had a situation just like this a couple of weeks ago in my home game (No Limit with .25/.50 blinds). Picked up red Aces on the button (first no-brainer hand pre-flop all night. Coooold cards until then). Whole boatload of limpers, and needless to say, I raise to get a few of these drawing turkeys the hell outta my AA pot. I kick it up five bucks, making it $5.50 to go. I only catch one caller in middle position.

Board shows up 5c 6c 8s.

MP bets $.50. I raise by $4.50 to bring the total bet to an even $5. MP calls (sweet, either he hit something on the board that he liked, or I've got this guy on a draw he just can't let go).

Turn is the 6s.

MP bets $3. I have a feeling that he's representing two pair or trips, but I'm determined not to let him scare me off with a $3 bet. For f***'s sake, I've been betting out $5 per round! But then the old nagging doubts come into my mind. "What if he does have that six? Hell, what if he's got POCKET sixes? What if I was beat on the flop and now, drawing dead on the river? What if? What if? What if?"

Earlier that night, since this was only the second No-Limit game I'd played ever, I re-read the No-Limit section in Super System (yeah, yeah, Brunson's a cheater, or his book sucks, or whatever, don't know for sure, don't really care), and some advice here on the No Limit subforum. Brunson's advice in No Limit is a lot like Major Kong's here. Once you start playing a pot, especially when the pot odds are giving you decent odds on a raggedy-ass board to your huge over-pair, play that mahfah agressively, and KEEP LEANING on the other guy until the other player gives you a reason to slow down, not the cards on the table.

So I count my chips, look at the pot, suck it up and go All-in over the top of this guy's $3.00 bet by another $10.70, to bring the total to $13.70 (what, we're all waiters, valets, McJob holders and college students, not bankers [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]). I figure with the blinds/limper calls, my bets and his calls/last bet, there's already between $25 and $30 in the pot, and it's the biggest we'd had all night.

My all-in bet added another $10 I want him to be pot committed to try and snag. He thought about it, and called. We turned up cards, and I couldn't believe the craziness. He turns up 7c8c. Caught him with his hand in the cookie jar trying for the straight flush.

River is a beee-yutiful red 7, giving him eights and sevens to my Aces and sixes.

Back in the proverbial day, I would have folded with the possibility of two (straight) flush draws, a pair on the board, straight draws, and a guy suddenly betting hard (by comparison) in to me after the board pairs. But I finally decided that I wasn't going to be a nancy boy, and ended up dragging a pot.

I think most of the time that my pocket Aces haven't held up isn't because they got cracked on the river, or whatever, but more along the lines of I was scared when certain boards would show up and someone who'd been quiet before makes some sort of weak-assed bet, trying to represent.

So cheers, Major Kong, I agree wholeheartedly. Stop being wusses, guys. There's more to poker than what's told to you in a book.

Edit: I know, one hand doesn't mean crap overall. But before more research, reading, and thinking about things, I would have never raised, and automatically assumed I had just been bet into by trips instead of an open ended SF draw, and mucked my Aces up.

But seriously, had I lost it all by a rivered straight, flush, trips, full, or SF, I still would have realized that I made the right play by making this guy sweat over an All-In bet, and then have to make the call on a draw.

Re: I return with a reply.......
 

Mez,

Excellent points. I'd like to revisit the idea that Kong's advice is for players that have a good command of how to identify a hand that is a potential winner.

Though the advice in the beginner poker books doesn't make a heck of alot of sense to the experienced player, they are VERY valuable in getting the novice player to understand what constitutes a playable hand from trash. It's the old "learn to walk before you can run" philosophy. These novice players, if they play "by the book", will turn out to be tight/passive players, but they will certainly stop such chip hemmoraging plays as calling down with 49o to the river when they hit bottom pair. Once you get the newbie to figure out starting hand selection, then they can move onto understanding odds and finally to such advanced concepts as betting for value.

The concept here is that, for the most part, you can expect your average low limit player to

a: play marginal hands to the river and
b: not have the knowlege to pick up on the fact they they're being smacked around by you.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

I dont have the link to hand but a search on the forums should find a link to Abduls hold em pages on there in I think the post flop play section he lists the number of outs for each type of hand for both one card and two card to come, I have then next to each of these calculated the odds on those outs and have it next to me when I play, I can refer quickly to the list to get my odds and hopefully am absorbing the figures as time goes on.

Memorising is fine for some but others learn and remember through experience.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

Abdul's home page

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

Major,

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

The biggest help to me in this post was the "if you can't handle the swings, take up tiddl-e-winks" comments. Too many times I've come down with MUBS (Monsters Under the Bed Syndrome) and folded my top pairs when flush boards come and to other similiar situations.

Thanks again for the insight and although I only have a small sample size I'm already benefitting from it in my low limit games. It seems that this take allows me to have more control of my destiny than I previously experienced.

twomarks

Re: A little quiz...
 

I'd probably cap it since I'd assume it's getting capped anyway.

Re: Funny hand just happened in response to this
 

Hey Gilder. Good job winning that Aces hand but I have a few comments on it.

On the flop, if you had ended up all-in with him, I'm pretty sure hes a favorite over your aces with his Str8 flush draw and top pair. On the turn, you take the lead, but he still has plenty of outs and given the size of the pot call your all-in every single time.

In response to MK's post. I think this is something that needed to be said for a variety of reasons, which have been brought up by other posters.

Just wanted to toss my 2bits in and say thanks for looking out for us MK.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

Dont know how I missed this post when it was first posted, but this is very, VERY solid advice MK, and even for those that may already know this, it is great to hear again.

I know that I for one will benefit from this post.

I truly enjoy these types of posts trmendously. When a strong verteran takes the time to write a detailed and elaborate post that can help those at the beginning and intermediate stages of their careers.

Thank you MK,

jw

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

One of the really good posts where you learn a lot.

I personally credit this post and a few others by MK for helping me overcome my weak-tight tendencies. I guesstimate this post alone was worth at least 0.5BB/hr in win rate improvement at low limits.

I'm gonna hate it when MK's book comes out and all the fishies get their hand on it... [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

I'm gonna hate it when MK's book comes out and all the fishies get their hand on it...

They won't buy it, because they're fish, and they don't care. And if they did care, they'd have already read this post, and been at 2+2, and they wouldn't be fish.

And if for some reason they do decide to buy it, and read it, and they pay attention to what is said in it, they'll STILL ignore it, because they're fish, and it's fun to play in the way that is fun, not how some guy tells you how to play in some book.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

I figured a bump of this post couldn't hurt.

Also what exactly constitutes a "big" pot?

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

Also what exactly constitutes a "big" pot?

There is no cutoff. Whenever you see advice that says, "Do this in a big pot," it really means, "As the pot gets bigger, be more inclined to do this." That is to say, there are usually several factors to consider when making a poker decision. One of those is pot size... which is a continuum. Depending on how the other factors line up, the fulcrum (to use Backdoor's word) pot size can change.

With that disclaimer, in many situations you can begin to think of the pot as "big" once it is raised preflop.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

thanks MK

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

lol

This post just helped me win a pot. I just sit down and post:

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, <font color="CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, Hero (poster) calls, Button folds, SB calls, BB folds, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (9 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, Hero calls, SB folds, UTG+1 folds.

*The old me folds this flop. But I have top pair and a backdoor. I don't think I'm ahead but I'm going to see the river because Majorkong said not to fold top pair.

Turn: (5.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (7.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: 9.50 BB, between MP3 and Hero.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by Hero (9.50 BB).</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
MP3 shows 7c 8c (one pair, threes).
Hero shows 8h Ah (two pair, aces and threes).
Outcome: Hero wins 9.50 BB. </font>

Is a turn bet in order here as a semi-bluff when I pick up the flush draw?

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: (9 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, Hero calls, SB folds, UTG+1 folds.

*The old me folds this flop. But I have top pair and a backdoor. I don't think I'm ahead but I'm going to see the river because Majorkong said not to fold top pair.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think the new you needs to raise this flop, not call.

SpaceAce

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

explain raising this flop, especially when I'm bet into by a pre-flop raiser and I don't like my kicker? I don't see this sort of play advocated in any 2+2 book.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

"But I have top pair and a backdoor."

I think you said it yourself.

Low levels, folks with raise with anything. Absent of a read, I'd re-raise this too, if he fires back, then I go into check call.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

Some arguments for raising in this spot:
1) You might get a free card.
2) You might force weak draws to fold, possibly saving the pot for you if you are ahead.
3) You might win the pot right here (which might well have happened in this case).

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

You can 3-bet this preflop if you think MP is raising light because of the dead money.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

Raise the flop. This is a very important concept.

Maybe MP3 is ahead of you, maybe he isn't. We could endlessly debate the chance that he has AK or KK or 99 or (apparently) 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

It just doesn't matter right now. This is a four-way pot. Every time you bet you get 3-1 odds if everyone calls. Surely those are good enough odds for this raise to be +EV. If some of your opponents fold their bottom pairs or gutshots you benefit in a different way by increasing your chance of winning the pot.

You cannot focus on whether putting in an extra bet or two is +EV or -EV against MP3. You don't even know. What you do know is there are two other players trying to suck out this pot. Make them pay or make them go away. That's a big EV gain that will more then compensate for the times MP3 might be ahead of you.

Once it's heads up you can start worrying about what MP3 has and whether you want to minimize or maximize the number of bets you put in against him.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

I don't see this sort of play advocated in any 2+2 book.

Just wait a couple of months... [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

[ QUOTE ]
explain raising this flop, especially when I'm bet into by a pre-flop raiser and I don't like my kicker? I don't see this sort of play advocated in any 2+2 book.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sklansky talks about it in some of his essays IIRC.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

explain raising this flop, especially when I'm bet into by a pre-flop raiser and I don't like my kicker?

Ok. Here's the point. You should often avoid "easily dominated" hands before the flop, especially against a raiser. You are trying to avoid trouble, making a cautious fold WHEN THE POT IS STILL SMALL.

Once you decide to see the flop (which you DEFINITELY should with your A8s in this hand), you simply cannot play in fear of the worst. If you flop top pair, you still have a potentially dominated hand, but now THE POT IS BIG! There is nothing you can do about it at this point, you just have to hope your hand is best and protect your share of the pot by raising out opponents with weak draws.

The size of the pot dictates how you play your hand. When the pot is small, making cautious folds is often correct. When the pot is large (which it is once it is raised preflop in this case), you MUST PROTECT YOUR HAND... you have to gamble. You have too much to lose if you play cautiously.

BTW, folding in this situation is ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE. It is an enormous error. I'm glad you fixed that leak. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] But now you have to start playing more aggressively.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

you were a 5:1 dog on the flop with 12:1 odds that is an AUTOMATIC call.

I am not arguing whether you should or should not call, but your figures are wrong, bunky.

On the flop, the odds of catching his inside straight draw were 43 to 4 or 10.75 to 1.

If he hadn't made it, he would have had odds of 42 to 4 or 10.5 to 1 of catching on the river.

I believe you are thinking that he had 5 to 1 odds of catching on either the turn or the river.

You can't use these odds unless you are all in on your flop bet and don't have to put more money in on the turn if you miss.

(You could maybe use the 5 to 1 odds if you added the flop and the turn bets together. For example, let's say there is $12 in the pot in a $1-$2. At the point of the flop bet you are getting $12 to your $1, 12 to 1, for your 10.75 to 1 draw. You could maybe say you were getting pot odds of $12 to $3, or 4 to 1 for your 5 to 1 draw, if you were absolutely certain that there would be no raises on the flop or turn bets; but this would be a risky (gambling) assumption to make, and we don't want to gamble, now, do we?)

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

excellent.

So let me try to clarify something. I should be more aggressive with a mediocre hand when the pot is big? This helps to get long shots out and preserve the pot incase my hand is good?

Does my strategy change when it gets heads up on the river? Meaning, should I not be as aggresive if I know I'm going to get called?

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

Ok, you sort of answered my question about what I do when it gets heads up after I fold the rest of the chasers out with a raise.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

I think part of the issue is that the hand you described isn't really mediocre. It's not the nuts- but it could very well be the winning hand and it's got out to a better hand. .

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

yeah, I guess you can't call top pair a mediocre hand. Mediocre would be something like 2nd pair or 3rd pair with good kicker.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

I just want to tahank Ed Miller. About 2 months ago I folded a big hand because I new I was beat only to find I was going against 3 guys bluffing.

He yelled at me and gave me some tough love. That particular hand I looked at my outs and pot odds and folded my ONE BB. Sometimes you have to put the bet in even though you know you are beat because you never really know and it's ONE FREAKING bet.

I was pissed at his response at the time BUT - HE DA MAN!

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

Good Post, Learned alot

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

is that why?&gt;