Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

The problem is this advice kind of goes against the general "tight aggressive" approach that one would read about.

It doesn't. You play tight before the flop. You play tight in small pots. You play AGGRESSIVELY in big pots.

When the pot is small, it's not that important to play aggressively, but it is crucial to play tight.

When the pot is large, it's not important to play tight, but it is crucial to play aggressively.

Also, quite frankly, a lot of what you read about poker isn't worth the paper it is printed on. 2+2 books give solid, reliable advice. Most other books give you pathetically weak-tight advice. It is advice that is designed to prevent you from losing too much money, not advice that will help you be a big winner.

I'm not going to name names, but you guys would be better off scrapping all those "low-limit" books you read and just study your ass off on the 2+2 library.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

By all means I wasn't trying to downplay your advice, just stating why I think most people that are trying to learn poker have trouble calling down in these situations.

I certainly struggled with it because the things I read. However, I do think its great advice, just difficult to handle at times for someone that is trying to play "tight" as they are "taught".

As you saw in my other post in this thread, thanks for the advice [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] I kinda learned this on my own but the reinforcement from seeing someone in the know say it will help a lot with my confidence.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

Ya.. I know what the problem is. The root of the problem is all these crappy books that have been written. It's not natural for people to make these mistakes.. these are mistakes that are "taught" as you put it.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

Maybe this is premature, but I think that you make a very valid point. One thing that I have found of my game is that I play too tight -- if the flop doesn't hit me hard, I usually drop it. The result is that I don't win many hands, and quite frankly get bored playing. Yesterday, I started playing two tables at once, which I think has vastly improved my game -- because between the two tables I see quality cards more often, I feel less pressured to play marginal hands. In any case, here's a hand I just had...

Party $0.50/$1... not too loose, for a Party table

Hero is the SB, dealt 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

EP1 folds, EP2 limps, folded to CO who limps along with the button. Hero completes, and BB raises. Called by all except button, Hero calls.

The flop is: 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Hero checks, BB bets and is called around. Hero thinks about calling the gutshot straight for a moment, knowing that he was trained himself to let it go, however tempting it is. But then Hero thinks about Majorkong's post, and takes a look at the pot odds (around 12:1), and decides to call.

The turn: 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Sweet! Hero checks, BB bets, called around, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, folded to Hero who caps.

River: Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Crap, hope he didn't have A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or something, but he has been playing as if he has a pocket pair. Hero bets out, BB calls.

Hero takes down $17.75. BB says, "y did you stay in?"

I don't want to get too excited about hitting a gutshot, but I will say this -- many books I have read say that when the competition gets looser, you have to just get tighter. When thinking about the math behind that, it doesn't make much sense. Perhaps tighter with your big cards, and looser with your draws?

All I know is that I took my fourth or fifth foray into online poker a couple days ago, after many failed attempts over the past year or so. I played tight and wasn't losing money, but wasn't making any either. Finally, I said, "All right, that's it, I need to stop playing like a total wuss." So I became more aggressive, loosened up just a little, and in the past 36 hours have just about doubled by bankroll.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

Folding your hand for one bet on the flop would have been a big mistake. You have not just a gutshot, but also two overcards. I'm glad that you have corrected your play as a result of my post. I hope you make the change permanent, not just while this post is fresh in your mind.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

you were a 5:1 dog on the flop with 12:1 odds that is an AUTOMATIC call.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

Majorkong, This post is a little of a wake-up call for me as well. I had already started changing my ways, but this post has hammered it home.

I too tended to "fit or fold" a little too much. I started watching the size of the pot, and at .5/1, if there is a raise PF, I usually have to odds on the flop to draw with 2nd pair, gutshots, overcards, backdoor flushes, all kinds of stuff.

People on Party .5/1 will bet out on the flop with ALL kinds of stuff. Especially small/middle pocket pairs, even when there are overcards(or 2, or 3) on the board. They LOVE pocket pairs.

With an over card or 3 flush and a gutshot, there are quite a few turn cards that will improve you, at least to a 4 flush or straight, where you will almost always have the odds to call the turn.

Last nite I played JTs on button, flop the OESD to the nuts on a rainbow board. It's capped 4 ways by the time it gets to me. A couple of weeks ago i might have VERY STUPIDLY folded, scared by all the crazy action, and having to pay 2BB just to see one more card, and sure I was up against a "made hand".

Now I realize It's only 4:1 against me hitting the stone cold nuts on the turn, with like a gillion SB in the pot.

Turn is the brick and SAME THING, capped 4 ways to me. More gillion:1 pot odds. The beautiful 7 hits on the river and I win like a 32BB pot that I would have been scared out of just a week or 2 ago.

Not saying any of this to educate anyone, I'm sure it's obvious to many. But slowly climbing out of weak-tightdom is helping me win much more than I have been. I started out basically being a Lee Jones robot. I have no doubt whatsoever you will win money at online micros playing exactly like he says. But by taking that game and adjusting it based on the posts of majorkong, clark, JT, nottom, and many others, is the way to start "crushing" these micros.

I'm not crushing anything yet, I have a LONG way to go. But so far this is the biggest revalation I've come across.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

I think part of the problem here is one of modeling: if there's one thing that posters here encourage you not to be, it's fishy. And everyone's favorite type of profitable fish is the Calling Station. I know that I'm probably folding winning hands, and that I occasionally suffer the emotional catastrophe of a river laydown. I'm a little eager to get out there and play more aggressively postflop, but I understand why I've been playing weakly. No one wants to look like the Fish we spend our days profiting off.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

Great post! Speaking as someone who took tight/aggressive play as a revelation from the first chapter of my first poker book, it's sometimes hard to realize I'm giving my opponents WAY too much credit.

But at the same time, it's important to remember that this isn't about being timid, it's about recognizing pot odds AT EVERY FLOP YOU SEE.

The biggest hole in my young game is playing too aggressively post-flop when I have nothing (probably because I've waited so long for the proper starting hands and can't give them up). Because I've played so tightly, I feel I can drive my opponent out of the pot with a few raises, which is a moronic strategy in low-limit games.

So I've filled that hole by making some tough laydowns, and I've become more profitable for it. But when I've got 10-1 on the turn, and I'm looking for that gutshot to the nut straight, I'm going to call every single time.

At the same time, however, I've trained myself to ditch those pocket jacks against a flop with AK if it's down to me and another caller. I'm not going to go down calling for a 1-to-23 miracle because I feel like a wimp.

So, fantastic post. But be careful to understand ALL of it. Always be aware of your chances. Majorkong said "when the pot is big." Make sure it is.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

[ QUOTE ]
you were a 5:1 dog on the flop with 12:1 odds that is an AUTOMATIC call.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he had a high pocket pair (likely), the 8s and 9s aren't really outs.