Terms & Conditions

Internet Magazine

Non–US new players
Get five 2+2 books


Order Books
Book Translations
Forum Login
 
 
Expand All   Collapse All

 Two Plus Two 
2+2 Magazine Forum
Special Sklansky Forum
2+2 Pokercast
About the Forums

 General Poker Discussion 
Beginners Questions
Books and Publications
Televised Poker
News, Views, and Gossip
Brick and Mortar
Home Poker
Beats, Brags, and Variance
Poker Theory
Poker Legislation

 Coaching/Training 
StoxPoker
DeucesCracked

 German Forums 
Poker Allgemein
Strategie: Holdem NL cash
Strategie: Sonstige
Internet/Online
BBV
Small Talk
German Poker News

 French Forums 
Forum francophone
Strategie
BBV (French)

 Limit Texas Hold'em 
High Stakes Limit
Medium Stakes Limit
Small Stakes Limit
Micro Stakes Limit
Mid-High Short-handed
Small Stakes Shorthanded
Limit––>NL

 PL/NL Texas Hold'em 
High Stakes
Medium Stakes
Small Stakes
Micro Stakes
Small-High Full Ring
Micro Full Ring

 Tournament Poker 
Small Stakes MTT
High Stakes MTT
MTT Community
STT Strategy
Tournament Circuit

 Other Poker 
Omaha/8
Omaha High
Stud
Heads Up Poker
Other Poker Games

 General Gambling 
Probability
Psychology
Sports Betting
Other Gambling Games
Entertainment Betting

 Internet Gambling 
Internet Gambling
Internet Bonuses
Affiliates/RakeBack
Software

 2+2 Communities 
Other Other Topics
The Lounge: Discussion+Review
El Diablo's General Discussion
BBV4Life

 Other Topics 
Golf
Sporting Events
Politics
Business, Finance, and Investing
Travel
Science, Math, and Philosophy
Health and Fitness
Student Life
Puzzles and Other Games
Video Games
Laughs or Links!
Computer Technical Help
Sponsored Support Forums
RakebackNetwork
RakeReduction.com
Other Links
Books
Authors
Abbreviations
Calendar
Order Books
Books by Others
Favorite Links
Feedback
Advertising Information
Home
Posting Hints
Privacy Notice
Forum Archives

The 2+2 Forums

Before using this Forum, please refer to the Terms and Conditions (Last modified: 2/26/2006)

Be sure to read the   Two Plus Two Internet Magazine

This is an archive. The main forums are here

These forums are read only.


 
UBB.threads™ Groupee, Inc.

Other Topics >> Politics

adios
Carpal \'Tunnel


Reged: 09/02/02
Posts: 8132
Of Climate Models and Hurricane Predictions
      11/30/07 10:55 AM

For 2006 the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) made the following predictions regarding the hurricane season in 2006 prior to 2006:

NOAA PREDICTS VERY ACTIVE 2006 NORTH ATLANTIC HURRICANE SEASON - Residents in Hurricane Prone Areas Urged to Make Preparations

"For the 2006 north Atlantic hurricane season, NOAA is predicting 13 to 16 named storms, with eight to 10 becoming hurricanes, of which four to six could become 'major' hurricanes of Category 3 strength or higher," added retired Navy Vice Adm. Conrad C. Lautenbacher, Ph.D., undersecretary of commerce for oceans and atmosphere and NOAA administrator.

The record?

Climate of 2006 - Atlantic Hurricane Season
For the season, there were 5 hurricanes (2 major) and 4 tropical storms: a below-average season when compared with the recent 1995-2005 average, yet similar to the average of the preceeding 25 years (1970-1994) listed in the paragraph above. Only 2 storms made landfall with the mainland U.S. during 2006, Tropical Storm Alberto in Florida and Hurricane Ernesto as a tropical storm in Florida and North Carolina. For additional information on individual storms, please see the summaries below. For statistics on the Atlantic storm season, please see NCDC's 2006 Atlantic basin Tropical Cyclone page.

Does the NOAA rely on climate models to make their predictions?
Modeling Climate

I note the following from their description:

The accuracy of climate models is limited by grid resolution and our ability to describe the complicated atmospheric, oceanic, and chemical processes mathematically. Much of the research in OAR is directed at improving the representation of these processes. Despite some imperfections, models simulate remarkably well current climate and its variability. More capable supercomputers enable significant model improvements by allowing for more accurate representation of currently unresolved physics

I've maintained in these threads that the climate models are unproven to which wacki has shall we say disagreed. What he overlooks seemingly very often is that I've also stated that the development of climate models is a very worthwhile activity. Also what he seems to me anyway to conviently overlook is that I've stated that I believe that climate models in 50 years will have advanced a great deal. Probably more than we can imagine. So to summarize, climate modeling is a worthwhile activity in it's early stages of development, the models will continue to improve, and are likely to be very, very much more refined and accurate 50 years from now. Does the above statement by NOAA really contradict what I'm saying? Even the NOAA claims the accuracy of the models is limited. Don't know why wacki claims that uncertain accuracy doesn't mean the models predictive value is unproven.

I thought it might be interesting to look at the NOAA predictions for 2007:

NOAA: 2007 Atlantic Hurricane Season Outlook Update

NOAA is predicting a very high likelihood (85% chance) of an above-normal 2007 Atlantic hurricane season, a 10% chance of a near-normal season, and only a 5% chance of a below-normal season, according to a consensus of scientists at the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) Climate Prediction Center, National Hurricane Center, Hurricane Research Division, and Hydrometeorological Prediction Center.

The outlook calls for an even higher probability of an above-normal season than was predicted in May (75%), and reiterates the expectation for a sharp increase in activity from the near-normal season observed last year. The 2007 season is expected to become the tenth above-normal season since the current active hurricane era began twelve years ago (in 1995). See NOAA’s definitions of above-, near-, and below-normal seasons.

The 2007 outlook calls for a likely range of 13-16 named storms, 7-9 hurricanes, and 3-5 major hurricanes. The likely range of the ACE index is 140%-200% of the median. These ranges are slightly tighter than those predicted in May (13-17 named storms, 7-10 hurricanes, 3-5 major hurricanes, and an ACE range of 125%-210%). The tighter ranges reflect not only an increased confidence for an above normal season, but also a reduced likelihood of seeing as many as 10 hurricanes and 17 named storms.


So what was the record?

Season Ends, Questions Remain

As a whole, the 2007 Atlantic hurricane season produced a total of 14 namedstorms, including six hurricanes, two of which became major hurricanes. NOAA'sAugust update to the seasonal forecast predicted 13 to 16 named storms - ofwhich seven to nine would be hurricanes, including three to five majorhurricanes of Category 3 strength or higher. An average season has 11 namedstorms, with six becoming hurricanes, including two major hurricanes. "The 2007 Atlantic hurricane season produced the predicted number of namedstorms, but the combined number, duration and intensity of the hurricanes didnot meet expectations," said Gerry Bell, Ph.D., lead seasonal hurricaneforecaster at NOAA's Climate Prediction Center. "The United States wasfortunate this year to have fewer strong hurricanes develop than predicted.Normally, the climate patterns that were in place produce an active, volatilehurricane season."The climate patterns predicted for the 2007 hurricane season - an ongoingmulti-decadal signal (the set of oceanic and atmospheric conditions that havespawned increased Atlantic hurricane activity since 1995) and La Nina -produced the expected below-normal hurricane activity over the eastern andcentral Pacific regions. However, La Nina's impact over the Atlantic wasweaker than expected, which resulted in stronger upper-level winds andincreased wind shear over the Caribbean Sea during the peak months of theseason (August-October). This limited Atlantic hurricane formation during thatperiod. NOAA's scientists are investigating possible climate factors that mayhave led to this lower-than-expected activity.All in all, one hurricane, one tropical storm and three tropical depressionsstruck the United States: Tropical Depression Barry came ashore near TampaBay, Fla., on June 2; Tropical Depression Erin hit southeast Texas on August16 and Tropical Depression Ten came ashore along the western Florida panhandleon Sept. 21; Tropical Storm Gabrielle hit east-central North Carolina on Sept.9, and Hurricane Humberto hit the upper Texas coast on Sept. 13. Also this year, the U.S. was reminded of the dangers of inland flooding. "Texas and Oklahoma experienced deadly flooding when Erin dumped up to 11inches of rain. Fresh water flooding is yet another deadly aspect of tropicalcyclones," said Ed Rappaport, acting director of NOAA's National HurricaneCenter.Other noteworthy statistics of the season include:


Again I'm not trying to denigrate the efforts of the scientists here. I'm just saying that the science is relatively new and probably will advance a great deal over time. I think accounts like the above show that this is the case. I'd like to point out another article from NOAA:

CLIMATE MODELS SUGGEST WARMING-INDUCED WIND SHEAR CHANGES COULD IMPACT HURRICANE DEVELOPMENT, INTENSITY

Global climate model simulations for the 21st Century indicate a robust increase in vertical wind shear in the tropical Atlantic and East Pacific Oceans, which could act to inhibit the development or intensification of hurricanes in these regions. Historically, increased vertical wind shear has been associated with reduced hurricane activity and intensity. (Click NOAA image for larger view of global warming’s multiple influences on hurricanes. Click here for high resolution version. Please credit “NOAA.”)

This new finding is reported in a study by scientists at the NOAA Geophysical Fluid Dynamics Laboratory in Princeton, N.J., and the Rosenstiel School of Marine and Atmospheric Science at the University of Miami, scheduled to be published April 18 in Geophysical Research Letters.

While other studies have linked hurricane intensity to global warming, this is the first published study to indicate that changes to vertical wind shear seen in future climate projections would likely diminish the frequency and intensity of hurricanes. Some effects of global warming, such as coral bleaching and melting tundra, are better understood than the impact on hurricanes.



Again this is not a denigration of the scientific efforts put forth and in fact I commend the efforts. Again I think it's fair to say that the we've got a lot to learn about modeling the climate and also that we're making progress.

My gripe is with the politicians that exploit the work of climate scientists to acheive their political agenda. I submit that if Al Gore made a movie that stated we need to arrest global warming because of increased vertical windshear he wouldn't have had many people listen to him.

Post Extras Print Post   Remind Me!     Notify Moderator


Entire topic
Subject Posted by Posted on
* Of Climate Models and Hurricane Predictions adios 11/30/07 10:55 AM
. * * Re: Of Climate Models and Hurricane Predictions Jcrew   12/01/07 07:03 PM
. * * Re: Of Climate Models and Hurricane Predictions Phil153   12/01/07 10:48 AM
. * * Re: Of Climate Models and Hurricane Predictions Kaj   12/01/07 12:37 PM
. * * Re: Of Climate Models and Hurricane Predictions wacki   12/01/07 11:13 AM
. * * Re: Of Climate Models and Hurricane Predictions Phil153   12/01/07 11:57 AM
. * * Re: Of Climate Models and Hurricane Predictions wacki   12/01/07 12:59 PM
. * * Re: Of Climate Models and Hurricane Predictions wacki   12/01/07 01:15 AM
. * * Re: Of Climate Models and Hurricane Predictions BluffTHIS!   12/01/07 02:45 AM
. * * Re: Of Climate Models and Hurricane Predictions wacki   12/01/07 07:48 AM
. * * Re: Of Climate Models and Hurricane Predictions BluffTHIS!   12/01/07 06:48 PM
. * * Re: Of Climate Models and Hurricane Predictions Phil153   12/01/07 07:06 PM
. * * Re: Of Climate Models and Hurricane Predictions BluffTHIS!   12/01/07 07:08 PM
. * * Re: Of Climate Models and Hurricane Predictions Phil153   12/01/07 07:15 PM
. * * Re: Of Climate Models and Hurricane Predictions BluffTHIS!   12/01/07 09:12 PM
. * * Re: Of Climate Models and Hurricane Predictions Arp220   12/02/07 02:37 AM
. * * Re: Of Climate Models and Hurricane Predictions Jcrew   12/01/07 09:29 PM
. * * Re: Of Climate Models and Hurricane Predictions ConstantineX   12/01/07 10:51 AM
. * * Re: Of Climate Models and Hurricane Predictions wacki   12/01/07 11:48 AM
. * * Re: Of Climate Models and Hurricane Predictions adios   12/01/07 09:14 AM
. * * Re: Of Climate Models and Hurricane Predictions wacki   12/01/07 10:58 AM
. * * Re: Of Climate Models and Hurricane Predictions adios   12/01/07 05:24 PM
. * * Re: Of Climate Models and Hurricane Predictions adios   12/01/07 04:23 PM
. * * Re: Of Climate Models and Hurricane Predictions adios   12/01/07 03:09 AM
. * * Re: Of Climate Models and Hurricane Predictions wacki   12/01/07 07:34 AM
. * * Re: Of Climate Models and Hurricane Predictions adios   12/01/07 08:56 AM
. * * Re: Of Climate Models and Hurricane Predictions wacki   12/01/07 10:43 AM
. * * Re: Of Climate Models and Hurricane Predictions adios   12/01/07 04:33 PM
. * * Re: Of Climate Models and Hurricane Predictions wacki   12/01/07 07:50 PM
. * * Re: Of Climate Models and Hurricane Predictions wacki   12/01/07 07:57 PM
. * * Re: Of Climate Models and Hurricane Predictions wacki   12/01/07 06:58 PM
. * * Re: Of Climate Models and Hurricane Predictions adios   12/01/07 07:33 PM
. * * Questions for wacki adios   12/01/07 04:54 PM
. * * Re: Questions for wacki wacki   12/01/07 07:30 PM
. * * Re: Questions for wacki adios   12/01/07 07:55 PM
. * * Re: Of Climate Models and Hurricane Predictions adios   12/01/07 02:34 AM
. * * Re: Of Climate Models and Hurricane Predictions Arp220   11/30/07 01:32 PM
. * * Re: Of Climate Models and Hurricane Predictions adios   12/01/07 12:23 AM
. * * Re: Of Climate Models and Hurricane Predictions Arp220   12/01/07 01:59 PM
. * * Re: Of Climate Models and Hurricane Predictions adios   12/01/07 04:41 PM
. * * Re: Of Climate Models and Hurricane Predictions Arp220   12/01/07 07:19 PM
. * * Re: Of Climate Models and Hurricane Predictions adios   12/01/07 07:50 PM
. * * Re: Of Climate Models and Hurricane Predictions Phil153   12/01/07 06:57 PM
. * * Re: Of Climate Models and Hurricane Predictions Zygote   11/30/07 11:05 AM

Extra information
0 registered and 10 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  iron81, Mat Sklansky, Mike Haven 



Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating:
Thread views: 466

Rate this thread

Jump to

contact us 2+2 Publishing

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5


Message Boards and Forums Directory

Pages provided by ConJelCo