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whitelime
go wake me up
Reged: 11/09/04
Posts: 1375
Loc: NYU
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Hi. I normally play 5/10 NL and higher. I don't post often in MHNL because at that level, some of the advanced concepts and thought processes are better left unsaid since some people still don't understand them. Many other posters hold back their thought processes to a certain degree as well. However, I have gained some knowledge from 2+2 and would like to repay by helping out some Small Stakes players. I will try to post one solid piece of advice for SS play each week. If I forget, someone send me a PM.
1) Isolate against the fish VERY FREQUENTLY
I see this mistake made very often. A donkey, lets say VPIP over 50 limps. Our 2+2'er limps behind. This is very bad. Your range of hands for raising the weak limper with position on him should include AT LEAST the following and probably more if you play halfway decent postflop: AA-77, AK, AQ, AJ, AT, Axs, KQ, KJ, KT, QJ, QT, JT, Q9s, J9s, K9s, 9Ts....
The amount you raise can vary, but a general rule is 3.5BB + 1 per limper (pot size raise).
If you get HU with the fish, and he checks the flop, you should be betting almost 100% of the time. Bet your monsters and bet your crap. Your bet amount should vary between 1/2 the pot and the full pot. Mix up the bet amount so no one can read your hand. However, use some common sense.
If the flop is A55 rainbow, a half pot bet probably makes the same hands fold as a pot bet...etc.
Think about it from a game theory perspective. If you bet the full pot every time, he will have to fold LESS than 50% or you show an automatic profit. Since most HE hands miss more than 50% of flops, unless the fish can adjust to your strategy, you will show an automatic profit.
Additionally, even if does call once in a while, you will have a hand once in a while so he'll have to be calling/raising not just 50% of the time, but way more.
Furthermore, if he does start raising and playing back at you, he is bad, so you should be able to outplay him.
Bottom Line - Start Isolating.
There is one situation where you should not isolate. This is if you have someone who is VERY loose in calling raises to your left. If this is the case, you won't be able to isolate that effectively. Naturally, the closer you are to the button, the more frequently you should be isolating.
You should be looking to sit to the direct left of the very loose players. You should pound on them. Attack them relentlessly. I've actually heard it debated whether you would rather sit to the left of a very loose player or the TAG so to avoid him having position on you. Let me put an end to this debate. Sit to the left of the loose player. It's not even close.
If you have a 6 handed table with 3 average players, 1 very loose player, and one very solid TAG and you have to sandwhich yourself between the TAG and the loose player, I would estimate your BB/100 will be DRAMATICALLY higher sitting to the left of the loose player with the TAG to your left. The reasons for this should be obvious.
I'll try to think of another important concept for next week.
Enjoy!
Edited by whitelime (10/13/05 06:40 AM)
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orange
Knob
Reged: 09/19/04
Posts: 19438
Loc: University of NE Lincoln/Omaha
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Intresting post, thanks.
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kitaristi0
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 02/03/05
Posts: 6132
Loc: incognito
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Great post, but I think this applies more to the MHNL games, than the SS games. I think it's more likely that you'll get an extra call or two of your raise behind you than it is that you'll isolate the limping fish at NL25. Maybe at NL100+ it starts being more effective.
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JustToast
Reged: 11/21/04
Posts: 899
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Good post. Looking forward to #2.
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punter11235
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 03/06/05
Posts: 3239
Loc: Check out my blog
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Quote:
Think about it from a game theory perspective. If you bet the full pot every time, he will have to fold LESS than 50% or you show an automatic profit.
Ok not that I am criticizing leading many flops but statement above is common fallacy. Its not true that you show automatic profit if he folds more than 50% of the times. Imagine that he calls only 40% of the times and you always lose when he calls , its auto profit for him, not for you, you are losing money.
The point is that if you cont bet you should hope for folding equity, if you dont have it, bet is just stupid, what is more EVEN if you cause only nonpair hands to fold and only these hands you still shouldnot bet. Here is why :
Suppose you have AK , flop is xxx, you raise to 10 and fish call, pot is 20$, you have position.
Now if fish has sth like QJ your equity is 65%, if fish has KQ your equity is about 75%; let say avg equity vs nonpair hand is about 2/3 of the pot, so betting defend only 7$ of your equity but lose about 16$ (80% * 20$) if fish call with a pair (and fish will call with a pair).
The point is that fish is not observant, he will still pay off with any piece of the flop even if you fire only with made hand. Fishes are generally passive so you shouldnt worry about being bluffed out. The best strategy is just bet hands which can get calls from weaker hands, betting a hand which is always worse if called is pointless against passive nonobservant fish (and SSNL is full of those).
There is one more point against cont betting : fish very rarely lead into you with his made hands , if you bet every time you will not take advantage of all the freecards he gives you, instead you will just bet the hand for him. Its not disaster if he just call and then check to you but if minraise (oh well, fishes love minraises) or even call and lead the turn you will lost mucho money.
I didnt mention firing second barrel cause its generally very bad idea against fish.
That said 2 points in defend of continuation betting can be made :
1)you can bet less which have 2 advantages :
a)first abovementioned math changes and it can be profitable
b)you induce calls from nonpair hands, and you will got them (calling cont bet with Q10o on 752 board is very common) you make good money there
2)Even if you lose money with your continuation bet it still can be good cause mistakes in later streets which fish make will be much more expensive. It can be worthwhile just to make pot big, even costing yourself some EV, for this effect.
Example: You have AhKh, in position, flop : 9h5h2s, fish check. Betting against average fish is very bad here from mathematical point of view, cause he will call with any pair and fold everything else, but agaisnt everything else you already have so much equity that its not worth defending it. But bet actually can be worthwhile because it make the pot bigger and if you hit your draw you will be able to make bigger bets which have good chance of being called. Simply you sacfrifice some EV on the flop to be in more favourable situation later in the hand.
Just some random thoughts about the subject.
Best wishes
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excession
veteran
Reged: 07/25/04
Posts: 1302
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'1) Isolate against the fish VERY FREQUENTLY
I see this mistake made very often. A donkey, lets say VPIP over 50 limps.'
Phrases like 'fish' and 'donkey' aren't very helpful.
If you are using 'fish' to mean 'a loose player who is also weak/rather passive' then your advice is fine.
But if you just mean 'someone who sees more than 50% of flops' it depends on how aggresive he is post-flop. If he is hyper aggressive and will bet the pot at you hit or miss, there is no reason to ramp it up pre-flop without a real premium hand - you just settle down into bear hunt mode, see cheap flops and take the money off him when you hit. Similarly is he is a sponge (calls CB's on flop and turn and then bets out big on river) or even just a straight calling station you don't want to be firing CB's at him if you miss as you've no fold equity..
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ChipStorm
Village FR Nit
Reged: 10/11/04
Posts: 2584
Loc: Poker For Dogs
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That's a great post, thanks whiteline.
I read some of the replies, and I think the issue of catching a call behind you of your raise is very legitimate, but your principal point of getting HU vs. a fish is well-taken. With position, against any poor player, if you don't f*** it up yourself you should be +EV across a very wide range of hands.
Many of us who play this level -- myself, at least -- are sufficiently concerned about our OWN postflop play skills that the idea of lagging it up preflop is daunting. But I will look for the specific table opportunity you're describing and try to take advantage more. Thanks again.
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vulturesrow
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 04/16/04
Posts: 7937
Loc: Old Right
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I think people are missing a key point here. The preflop raise against loose callers is in part a value raise, because many times you are holding the best hand even if it is a weakish hand, say something like AJ or AT. You arent raising solely to isolate in other words. Who doesnt want to be a headsup againt a poor postflop player with a hand that has a not insignificant chance of being the best hand?
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Komodo
old hand
Reged: 12/30/04
Posts: 893
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Problem is, usually half the table is calling the raise, so your AJ is highly unlikely to be the best hand post flop. Im not sure how to play hands like AT at a loose table. Valuebetting with AK and big pocket usually get payed of very well though
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Morrek
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 04/20/05
Posts: 3221
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I try to do this as often as possible, and I think of it more as a value raise, although I really don't do it with the lower end of your hand range there (QJ QT JT J9s T9s)... might try it though (playing 100NL mostly)
Oh and if you're getting too many callers just raise more preflop? Especially with your solid hands (AJs and up, or so depending on table looseness)
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