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PL/NL Texas Hold'em >> Micro Stakes

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EMcModerator
The People's Mod


Reged: 02/24/05
Posts: 7663
Loc: LETS GO YANKEES!!
**uNL Concept of the week: Week 4, Valuebetting**
      #8057304 - 11/15/06 12:09 AM


NL is a complex game. We all know this. Sure, you get 2 cards, but the game is far more than just the 2 in your hand and the 5 on the board. For the next few weeks, uNL is going to have a concept of the week thread discussing a certain concept or theory in NL Hold'em.

In this thread you should post HH's showing situations where the concept was applied effectively as well as examples of poor usage of the concept. Also, please debate over various aspects of the concept and it's pro's and con's.
___________________________________________________________
We are going back to the good old fashioned basics here folks, plain and straight valuebetting. We've all taken our trips to 'valuetown' and haven taken many to 'valuetown'.

What is valuebetting?
Valuebetting is the practice of betting your hands for extraction of your opponents chips, essentially making money. Mathmatically speaking, Im pretty sure that valuebetting can be expressed in the function f(b)=w(b), where w= chance your hand is the best and b is the size of your bet, but its been a long time since calculus so if Pokey wants to math this up, go ahead.

Why Valuebet
You are playing this game with the objective to make money, no?

When to valuebet?
Simply put, you should be valuebetting when you feel you have the best hand, or that the valuebet function is positive. So if you feel that your TT is the best on a TTJAQ board (and if you don't, well then, too bad on you), you should be betting it for value. Value extraction can be done in many ways but the quickest and most effective is value betting.

Whats a thin valuebet\
Sometimes, we are presented with a situation were the bet has a low expectation. Sometimes its best to check, sometimes its best to bet. Its very player dependent. Against certain opponents what appears to be a thin valuebet is actually a big valuebet, and vice versa.

Biggest Problem Areas for valuebetting
The biggest problem area for valuebetting that uNL has is on later streets, usually the turn, but more specifically the river. On later streets the bets are usually bigger and as such have more importance. You should work on finding opportuinties based on experience and reads where you can get 1 more VB in on the river. A good example is TPG-MK. Against the right opponents, the river should be valuebet with AT or A9 when its only TP.
____________________________________________________________
Straight and simple ABC trip to valuetown.

Villain has 34/12ish stats over a limited sample, but doesn't seem to be that good of a player.

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $.25/$.50
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $45.55
UTG+1: $20.87
Hero: $65.50
Button: $15.50
SB: $47.75
BB: $35.85

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with A J
UTG calls, 1 folds, Hero raises to $2.5 , 2 folds, BB calls.

Flop: A 7 2 5, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $4, BB calls.

Turn: 3
BB checks, Hero bets $10


River: 5 ($33, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $20, BB Calls.


Results:
BB shows A T

Here I didn't have a great specific read but based on experiences with the player and stats I felt I was WA of his range. Remember that at uNL your unknown opponents are typically ace happy (think of when you have KK). When you see them get over-zealous with an ace, that can be one of the most profitable notes/reads on a player.


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Jigsaws
rock and roll pancake


Reged: 06/06/06
Posts: 3768
Loc: pumalicious
Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 4, Valuebetting** [Re: EMc]
      #8057609 - 11/15/06 12:33 AM

Okay, here's a few hands where I thought I made some thin value bets or shoves.

This first hand nicely demonstrates the stack-a-donk line as well.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) internettexasholdem.com

UTG ($24.50)
Hero ($102.80)
CO ($30)
Button ($82.25)
SB ($50.20)
BB ($34.65)

Preflop: Hero is MP with K, J.
1 fold, Hero raises to $2, CO calls $2, 2 folds, BB calls $1.50.

Flop: ($6.25) 3, 4, K (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $4.5, CO calls $4.50, BB folds.

Turn: ($15.25) 3 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $11, Hero raises to $96.3, CO calls $12.50 (All-In).

River: ($135.05) 5 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $135.05

Results below:
Hero has Kh Jc (two pair, kings and threes).
CO has 8c 8s (two pair, eights and threes).
Outcome: Hero wins $135.05.

In this hand, I had been fairly aggressive on the table so far, because there was a 2+2er in the BB when I was OTB. I shoved AK over his 3bet of my Button raise, for example. He folded, and though I didn't show, I did say I had AK in chat. All that made me think the donk at the table could be minraising me with nearly any piece of the board here.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (3 handed) internettexasholdem.com

BB ($58.30)
Button ($26)
Hero ($89.60)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K, Q.
Button calls $0.50, Hero raises to $2.5, 1 fold, Button calls $2.

Flop: ($5.50) 5, T, Q (2 players)
Hero bets $4, Button raises to $8, Hero raises to $87.1, Button calls $15.50 (All-In).

Turn: ($116.10) 2 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($116.10) 4 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $116.10

Results below:
Button has Jd Qc (one pair, queens).
Hero has Ks Qs (one pair, queens).
Outcome: Hero wins $116.10.

In this hand, villain is just an incredibly aggro donk. The type where it's like... I have an overpair, I have the nuts.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Hero ($50)
BB ($123.10)
UTG ($94)
MP ($49.50)
Button ($31.50)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T, T.
UTG raises to $2.5, 2 folds, Hero calls $2.25, 1 fold.

Flop: ($5.50) 2, 2, 7 (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $2.5, Hero raises to $7, UTG raises to $11.5, Hero calls $4.50.

Turn: ($28.50) 6 (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $20, Hero raises to $36, UTG folds.

Final Pot: $84.50


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carnivalhobo
Carpal \'Tunnel


Reged: 01/05/06
Posts: 5779
Loc: one time
Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 4, Valuebetting** [Re: Jigsaws]
      #8059290 - 11/15/06 04:10 AM

i cant stress how important vb'ing is in ss/micro nl.

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netstorm
old hand


Reged: 06/29/06
Posts: 902
Loc: Netherlands
Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 4, Valuebetting** [Re: carnivalhobo]
      #8059603 - 11/15/06 05:23 AM

How about the betsizing? When valuebetting TPTK against someone who overrates toppair, what is the best line to take ? Pot flop, 2/3 turn, 2/3 river? Or is it a different line.

Thanks for another great concept


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Jouster777
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 11/23/05
Posts: 1825
Loc: LAG right, nit left
Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 4, Valuebetting** [Re: carnivalhobo]
      #8059751 - 11/15/06 06:25 AM

Quote:

i cant stress how important vb'ing is in ss/micro nl.



I agree that when in doubt a VB is usually a good idea. However there are times to forego a VB too. I think this is a fairly straightforward spot where I should check behind on the river.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Button ($8.70)
SB ($10.50)
BB ($9.95)
Hero ($34.85)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 6, A.
Hero raises to $1, 2 folds, BB calls $0.75.

Flop: ($2.10) A, 9, 8 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $1.75, BB calls $1.75.

Turn: ($5.60) T (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $3, BB calls $3.

River: ($11.60) A (2 players)
BB checks, Hero?
I think I should check here. Villain has ~$4 left. If he has a straight or better A he's not folding at this point and if he's on a FD he's folding. Only thing that calls is 2-pair and I would have expected that it would go in on the turn with that.

...and yes, I probably did overplay my weak A on earlier streets.


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sharkbitten
journeyman


Reged: 11/18/05
Posts: 59
Loc: Denver, CO
Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 4, Valuebetting** [Re: Jouster777]
      #8063440 - 11/15/06 01:53 PM

Gotta bump.
This is too good. Keep up the good work.


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Triggerle
veteran


Reged: 10/14/05
Posts: 1439
Loc: What's a matter with you, rock...
Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 4, Valuebetting** [Re: sharkbitten]
      #8064898 - 11/15/06 03:58 PM

This is probably not optimally played as I moved up about 30 hands ago and don't have a feel yet for bet sizes/table dynamics. Also, I'm generally not too confident with TPTK hands. On the river I did think of this thread, though.

Ultimate Bet
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.10./$0.25.
9 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is Button with K A
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO calls, Hero raises to $1.6, 4 folds, CO calls.

Flop: 9 K J ($4.05, 2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets $2.25, CO calls.

Turn: 4 ($8.55, 2 players)
CO checks, Hero checks.

River: 4 ($8.55, 2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets $3.75, CO calls.

Results:
Final pot: $16.05


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matv
old hand


Reged: 02/07/06
Posts: 848
Loc: going to the felt with overpai...
Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 4, Valuebetting** [Re: Triggerle]
      #8065468 - 11/15/06 04:43 PM

Ultimate Bet
No Limit <a href="http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/?s=holdem">Holdem</a> Ring game
Blinds: $0.10./$0.25.
2 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
SB: $52.40
Hero: $24.30

Pre-flop: (2 players) Hero is BB with J J
SB calls, Hero raises to $1, SB calls.

Flop: A K 7 ($2, 2 players)
Hero bets $1.25, SB calls.

Turn: A ($4.5, 2 players)
Hero checks, SB checks.

River: J ($4.5, 2 players)
Hero is all-in $22.05, SB calls.

Results:
Final pot: $48.6


I feel this is the optimum way to play against someone who won't fold an A on this board. I will happily through away the call i may get from a flush or another pair to take this persons stack.


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Shaddux
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 06/28/06
Posts: 1778
Loc: Duke University
Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 4, Valuebetting** [Re: EMc]
      #8065538 - 11/15/06 04:47 PM

Nice post.

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mason55
THE Dirk Diggler


Reged: 09/27/04
Posts: 10530
Loc: televisiphonernetting
Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 4, Valuebetting** [Re: matv]
      #8065553 - 11/15/06 04:49 PM

Value betting and hand protection on the flop. Villain is 50vpip and I have been abusing my button badly for the last 45 minutes. Even though it's a scary flop for top and bottom, I'm way ahead of his range, especially since he thinks I'm out of line. Results show you just how out of line he thinks I was and the crap that uNL players will call with.


Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
5 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $108.85
Hero: $63.25
Button: $47.85
SB: $69.20
BB: $65.05

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is CO with T K
UTG folds, Hero raises to $2, Button folds, SB calls, BB folds.

Flop: K T Q ($4.5, 2 players)
SB bets $2, Hero raises to $11, SB calls.

Turn: T ($26.5, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $15, SB calls.

River: J ($56.5, 2 players)
SB bets $15, Hero raises all-in $35.25, SB calls.

Results:
Final pot: $127
Hero showed Td Kd
SB mucks Kc 5c


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