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PL/NL Texas Hold'em >> Micro Stakes

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matrix
there is NO spoon


Reged: 09/04/05
Posts: 7050
Loc: UK
Re: Basic Theory: -Expected Value- [Re: bozlax]
      #7859684 - 10/30/06 05:39 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I hope this makes things a little clearer now.




My concern still exists: if you're talking about the EV of calling his all-in, even if you specifically know his hand, you don't include the money you're putting into the pot in your calculations. If you're talking about the equity race AFTER you've made the call, you include the full pot.

To put it another way (and this is why I included a hint in my first reply) neither your net win nor your EV for a given hand can be bigger than the amount of money put into the pot by players other than yourself.




So to be perfectly correct our EV for calling in the AA hand example is 68BB not 168BB - but otherwise OK?


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bozlax
Just a big [censored] softie at heart


Reged: 12/29/04
Posts: 8848
Loc: Wookie is right
Re: Basic Theory: -Expected Value- [Re: matrix]
      #7860758 - 10/30/06 06:54 PM

Quote:

So to be perfectly correct our EV for calling in the AA hand example is 68BB not 168BB - but otherwise OK?




Aside from that minor difference, yeah.

(Actually, the EV of that call is 80.64.)


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lexxor
addict


Reged: 11/15/06
Posts: 430
Re: Basic Theory: -Expected Value- [Re: matrix]
      #9997757 - 04/17/07 06:51 PM

Excellent, a new basic i put into my brain. *bookmarked*

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fees
Carpal \'Tunnel


Reged: 02/19/07
Posts: 4162
Loc: Whats my motivation? LOLOLOLOL...
Re: Basic Theory: -Expected Value- [Re: lexxor]
      #9998220 - 04/17/07 07:17 PM

SKLANSKY BUX LDO

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Riverdale27
stranger


Reged: 08/05/07
Posts: 1
Re: Basic Theory: -Expected Value- [Re: fees]
      #11536675 - 08/05/07 06:16 AM

I have not yet seen the right answer for the first example: AA vs KK. I see a lot of calculations, but they are all wrong.

You have to call an all in on the flop. Now the only thing that matters when talking about EV, is the expected value of the call. The question is correctly asked: "What is the EV of calling knowing we are against specifically KK with our hand, AA?"

And here is where the mistake is made.

Preflop this is the action:
- SB posts 0.5 BB
- BB posts 1 BB
- CO raises 4 BB
- SB folds
- BB calls 3 BB

So there are 8.5 BB in the pot when the flop comes.

The flop comes 936

And now our opponent will move all in with the kings, and tells us what he have, so we are sure he has KK

We can call or fold. Ofcourse we will call... but what is the EV of this call?

Well...

There were 8.5 BB in the pot already, and now the villain put in his remaining 96 BB. This results in a pot of 8.5 BB + 96 BB = 104.5 BB.

Now here is the situation for us: we can call and win, or we can call and lose. Winning will happen 91.6162 % of all times. Losing will occur 8.3838 % of all times.

And now pay attention very closely: When we win, our profit is not 100.5 BB (0.5 BB from the SB plus 100 BB from the villain)! When we win, we will win 104.5 BB. How is that? Well ofcourse we will win the 100 BB from the villain, and the 0.5 BB from the SB... but we will also win the 4 BB that we put in ourselves preflop.

And this is a tricky thing to understand... this 4 BB is ours, so why do we win it? Well, you decided to raise 4 BB, and from that moment on, the 4 BB is not yours anymore, it is in the pot, and you can't take it back. This is a concept that in economics they call "sunk costs" meaning costs that result from decisions from the past, costs that can not be changed anymore. And the 4 BB that you raised are exactly that. They are not yours anymore, so they become a part of your potential profit.

If we lose on the other hand, we will actually be 100 BB down in that hand... but we are talking about the EV of the call here... and the call is 96 BB. So we lose 96 BB on the call, and not 100 BB.

These concepts are VERY important to understand!

So, know that we know that, what is our EV? Well:

EV = (0.916162)(104.5 BB) + (0.083838)(-96 BB)
EV = 95.738929 BB - 8.3048448 BB
EV = 87.4340842 BB
EV = 87.43 BB

And this is the only correct EV from the call. All the other ones you will read in this topic are wrong. On average, you will win 87.43 BB per call you make on the flop in that situation. A very profitable situation as you see, but not as profitable as the author of this topic wrongly suggests: 168 BB.

Edited by Riverdale27 (08/05/07 06:23 AM)


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Anonymous
Unregistered




Post deleted by Ryan Beal [Re: Riverdale27]
      #11536686 - 08/05/07 06:17 AM



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South Pole
journeyman


Reged: 11/24/05
Posts: 87
Re: Basic Theory: -Expected Value- [Re: matrix]
      #11537520 - 08/05/07 09:52 AM

Quote:

The actual results don't matter, as long as my range is accurate




Your decision to call the bet is the whole issue for me and that's based on the range of hands you give below isn't it?

Here's your selected range JJ+, 55, AhKh, AJs, J5s, J2s, Ts7s, 52s, AJo, J5o, J2o, 52o

But IMO some of this range (J5o, J5s, J2s, QQ+) is not as likely to be raising all-in as JJ+ for instance.

Do you agree and if so doesn't this change the EV result significantly? More to the point how do you deal with this in the heat of battle when deciding to call?

Quote:

I play using the general rule that I should never fold a flopped set for ~100BB. The reason being that no matter the flop if we can get all the money in on the flop we are almost always a favourite to win the hand at the showdown vs our opponents range of hands.




Continuing the theme of my post why do you say "we are almost always favourite to win the hand vs. our opponents range of hands"? What range of hands do you consider when making such a decision or do you automatically call all-in bets given the same hand and board?


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Fiksdal
banned


Reged: 08/22/06
Posts: 4444
Re: Basic Theory: -Expected Value- [Re: ]
      #11537582 - 08/05/07 10:04 AM

Quote:

The Future is Here!!!

Online Spades for REAL money! Use visa/mastercard or even Paypal! Accepts USA players.

Go to your browser, and type in:

SUPERsadasSPAdqS.COM




can someone ban this guy already


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Danastasio1
member


Reged: 01/18/07
Posts: 108
Loc: ftp HORSE freeroll champ
Re: Basic Theory: -Expected Value- [Re: South Pole]
      #12236753 - 09/25/07 06:48 PM

Quote:

Your decision to call the bet is the whole issue for me and that's based on the range of hands you give below isn't it?

Here's your selected range JJ+, 55, AhKh, AJs, J5s, J2s, Ts7s, 52s, AJo, J5o, J2o, 52o

But IMO some of this range (J5o, J5s, J2s, QQ+) is not as likely to be raising all-in as JJ+ for instance.

Do you agree and if so doesn't this change the EV result significantly? More to the point how do you deal with this in the heat of battle when deciding to call?




I was somewhat able to grasp the Galfond Dollars concept, but if I was quizzed on it I would probably fail. Does this quote above pertain to a G-Bucks situation, or not?

Edited by Danastasio1 (09/25/07 06:50 PM)


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Ditso
stranger


Reged: 10/29/07
Posts: 17
Re: Basic Theory: -Expected Value- [Re: Danastasio1]
      #12817230 - 11/05/07 11:36 AM

great post
thanks for clearing things out


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