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PL/NL Texas Hold'em >> Micro Stakes

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absoludicrous
Creator of many hilarious ZeeJustin photoshops in the ZJ Photo Mod Thread and an 8 on hot or not too


Reged: 03/27/06
Posts: 5578
Loc: Photoshoppin'
Help Me Identify This Popular Line from Villain!
      #7774626 - 10/23/06 05:57 PM

I keep seeing a particular line from villain that has me confused.

Usually it will go something like this...

Villain limps in EP, I raise in LP. Villain calls, and checks flop. I c-bet, villain smooth calls. Turn is a blank. Villain will check, I'll check behind. River is a blank. Villain leads for pot.

or...

I open in LP or MP, villain calls from LP. I c-bet flop, villain calls. Turn comes, I check, villain makes a pot sized bet...


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kaz2107
Jumpman HOLLA!


Reged: 07/26/05
Posts: 2943
Loc: Hating CO pro sports atm
Re: Help Me Identify This Popular Line from Villain! [Re: absoludicrous]
      #7775491 - 10/23/06 07:13 PM

it is mostly a passive donk who has some mediocre hand (like tpmk or 2nd pair or a medium pp) but when u show so much weakness they realize they r good and decide to make some weak ass bet at the end

or they r decent and have realized u cbet a ton (i assume) and are floating u some. either or depending on villian


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absoludicrous
Creator of many hilarious ZeeJustin photoshops in the ZJ Photo Mod Thread and an 8 on hot or not too


Reged: 03/27/06
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Re: Help Me Identify This Popular Line from Villain! [Re: kaz2107]
      #7775574 - 10/23/06 07:21 PM

Yeah, I c-bet like 90% of flops.

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kaz2107
Jumpman HOLLA!


Reged: 07/26/05
Posts: 2943
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Re: Help Me Identify This Popular Line from Villain! [Re: absoludicrous]
      #7775613 - 10/23/06 07:24 PM

yea then those 2 lines are the most profound imo. ov there will b morons who just think there 2 overs or 2 random cards are worthy of a call for an inside straight draw or wut ever but id say the majority is tha first 2 lines

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EMcModerator
The People's Mod


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Re: Help Me Identify This Popular Line from Villain! [Re: kaz2107]
      #7775664 - 10/23/06 07:28 PM

I love that avatar abs

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bmk67
member


Reged: 06/20/06
Posts: 193
Loc: Stacking donks & robbing nits.
Re: Help Me Identify This Popular Line from Villain! [Re: absoludicrous]
      #7776319 - 10/23/06 08:15 PM

Quote:

Yeah, I c-bet like 90% of flops.




I do as well with position, somewhat less frequently without.

I see this kind of line a lot, although the river bets are often 1/2 pot to PSB. It seems in that villian has had enough of my games and is floating me. I don't recall any horrible players doing this, only those who seem to have some semblance of a clue.

It seems like there are several defenses against this type of villian.

* Find easier prey.
* C-bet him on the flop less.
* Delayed c-bet on the turn?
* Sometimes fire a second barrel on the turn.
* Sometimes call/raise his river bets when we think he's floating.

There are probably other defenses. I'm not sure how frequent "sometimes" is.

At this point, I often choose the "find easier prey" line, but that's not always an option, and it doesn't really help our game - though it does bring in the monies.


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Waingro
veteran


Reged: 11/23/05
Posts: 1274
Re: Help Me Identify This Popular Line from Villain! [Re: absoludicrous]
      #7779432 - 10/24/06 12:55 AM

This is a really good question, and Iīm a little disappointed there havenīt been more responses. Because this is one of the more common scenarios. Sometimes it feels like every other hand you raise pf end up like this.

Iīm with Kaz here, this is often some kind of marginal made hand that villain is betting for value. He has deduced that you have absolutely nothing, but the fact that no worse hand calls doesnīt stop him from betting for value his third pair or whatever. Obviously this is sometimes a slowplayed tptk or better or he just got there or some random bluff but overall I think you will find a marginal made hand here.

One counterstrategy is to check good made hands behind on the turn to induce this kind of super thin valuebets. Whether you shove over the top for value with hands like aa or just call is a personal preference. A shove is a sick play and they can probably talk themselves into a call. Alternately you could shove river as a bluff to move them off third pair. I really donīt have any solid grasp of your average villainīs frequencies to comment on a river shove either way.


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munkey
A model citizen


Reged: 05/25/06
Posts: 1340
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Re: Help Me Identify This Popular Line from Villain! [Re: Waingro]
      #7781787 - 10/24/06 07:33 AM

Me too - both these lines I encounter ofen and aren't sure what to do- I'll be on the alert for these lines when playig today.

The problem I think is when I take this line as abs does I often have not very much or an o.k. hand and confused when facing the PSB. When I take the check line with TP hands if I check the turn I often see medium pairs/TPMK/missed draws but sometimes 2 pairs.

Vs thinking opponents that know you've got air weakly made hand more often than not it could be a bluff or good made hand and they've read you and put you in a sticky situation.

If I c/r turn with a better hand/draw it gets called a fair amount time too so I'm not sure if it's particular to villans.

I believe NLHTAP discusses that in this situation your hand becomes a bluff-catcher and thats it.

I'm interested in what others have to say -particularly the PSB from villan when you check turn.


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matrix
there is NO spoon


Reged: 09/04/05
Posts: 7050
Loc: UK
Re: Help Me Identify This Popular Line from Villain! [Re: munkey]
      #7782026 - 10/24/06 08:42 AM

I use the 2nd line lots vs TAG's only I lead the turn for 2/3 not full pot and it's insanely profitable, they almost always fold (I'd guess 70%) or re-raise if they don't fold (at which point I bail unless I have a real hand) it's a standard float line (see Emc's concept of the week thread) IF you think villain is floating you (and at uNL not many villains are) raise the turn and shutdown if called.
it's either the nuts or some near nut hand or total air. Depends on the villain your image and stuff like that.

Don't make this play yourself with just air/semi-bluffs mix in some good hands as well.

I usually call the first line (PSB on river after checking turn through) and it's often a bluff.

If you are mostly going to fold a blank river then don't check the turn, fire a 2nd barrel. I would tend to not call the river unless I have MP+

I refer the honourable gentlepeople to ye olde fimbulwinter post here

4. Raising when you're either waaay ahead or waaay behind. In a hand I had AQs on button and bumped it. 3 callers. flop came A73 rainbow and someone led into me. either i'm crushed or i'm killing them, and i probably won't be able to get away from this given the 25NL players and the short stacks, so instead of raising when bet into, i just call. this looks weak and induces further bluffs. make your decision right there how to play it and go with your read, if you call there you call down the rest of the hand, even if a 7 or 2 peels off. if you're MAKING them bluff then you MUST call. in the hand the run came an ace and the guy bet again, i called. river blanked and he pushed, i called and he showed KQo. If i'd have raised the flop i'd have made a little. by taking a small risk, i made a lot. note this does not apply to draw heavy boards, so raise those likely semibluffs, but not the pure bluffs.

if the board isn't very drawy and you are playing it passive and calling bets then you can't bail and fold a blank river - if you induce a bluff (or are very likely to have induced a bluff) you gotta call. If your hand is too weak to call a river PSB then fire barrel #2 on the turn.

Obv villain dependant but the guys using these lines generally have half a clue.


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Freelancer
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 07/12/05
Posts: 2215
Loc: Embrace the variance !!
Re: Help Me Identify This Popular Line from Villain! [Re: matrix]
      #7782254 - 10/24/06 09:28 AM

The best defense against this is firing a second barrel at villain.
Be carefull with this, the villains that do this are usually quite bad and will also call the second barrel making it a even worse situation. So its up to you to identify who to two barrel and who to shut down to (make a hand and stack them).
This is very much read dependant.


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