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PL/NL Texas Hold'em >> Micro Stakes

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kurto
Carpal \'Tunnel


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 6777
Loc: in your heart
Regarding all the "how do I extract posts"....
      #7448016 - 09/27/06 01:36 PM

I feel like I've seen a lot of these lately and I feel like, at these microstakes table, the answer is always bet. There are legitimate arguments in Poker about letting people catch up and such... but that thinking is almost always more applicable in games with thinking opponents.

(1) At these tables (apparently including many of the $50 tables) people still call way too much and/or bluff way too much. We need to take advantage of it.

(2) Since we want to get value, we have to bet it. Certainly sometimes people will fold. And we all feel disappointed when our monster hand doesn't get paid off. But I've seen too many people make 2bb profit from their flopped sets because they were so damn tricky when someone else would have called them down with top pair.

If you've playing even mildly aggressive, betting on draws, cont-betting, etc... then when you flop a monster and lead out, it will be perceived as just more of the same.

I actually think when you raise PF (or Reraise) and then check the flop with your monster, its transparent. Especially if you checkraise... You get less value because that shows too much strength. Betting is more deceptive.

So what I'm getting at with these how do I extract posts... BET.

For your amusement and to punctuate my point... I made quads twice last night. I actually missed a value bet in one of these hands but in each case, I bet out AND someone took the lead AWAY from me! BET

http://www.pokerhand.org/?528389

(Note- clearly the guy in the above hand is an idiot. But this reinforces my point... you can bet monsters when you're at a table of donks. They're so busy either trying to bluff or overvaluing their hands (who knows which it is?) that they'll pay you.

Quads #2
http://www.pokerhand.org/?528376

Note- in this one I'm almost not listening to my own advice. The problem in my mind is that I already pegged this guy as an over aggressive idiot. I didn't for a second think his hand was as strong as he was representing. I was truly concerned that if I showed more aggression he would certainly fold. I don't mind the turn check because I feel certain he will continue to try to represent a boat. The river was difficult... I didn't know what the chances of him 3 barrelling it was but I thought the chances of him calling was soooo low considering I lead into him and smoothcalled him twice. But I would recommend betting that river for at least 1/2 psb.

BET


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ChipStorm
Village FR Nit


Reged: 10/11/04
Posts: 2584
Loc: Poker For Dogs
Re: Regarding all the "how do I extract posts".... [Re: kurto]
      #7448088 - 09/27/06 01:41 PM

Quote:

BET.



qft

nh kurto

Edited by ChipStorm (09/27/06 01:42 PM)


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JackAll
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/20/06
Posts: 2491
Loc: watching 2+2 get crapier daily
Re: Regarding all the "how do I extract posts".... [Re: kurto]
      #7448314 - 09/27/06 01:59 PM

Good advice, but some comments on your hands:

H1 - Raise pf. Makes it easier to get the money in as well as take it down on the flop when others miss the flop as they usually do. Limping also shows your hands can be easily stolen from since it's obviously not a primo hand.
Also I don't like the weak lead on the turn unless you're sure they will come over the top. If you check, at least you can c/r and grow the pot. Or if you lead for close to full pot, at least it grows it more. Betting half pot is the best way to keep the pot small.

H2 - raise or fold pf. limping is bad. calling a raise is worse. Also, I would c/r the turn and push river. Anything that's not a trashy steal will stay in. You weren't getting money from anyone who was folding anyway.


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kurto
Carpal \'Tunnel


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 6777
Loc: in your heart
Re: Regarding all the "how do I extract posts".... [Re: JackAll]
      #7448466 - 09/27/06 02:11 PM

Hi. Thanks for your comments. Do you play 6 max? I thought your advice seemed more fitting for shorthanded play.

(1) H1 - Pocket 7s two from the bb- I do mix up how I play small pocket pairs. But at full ring, I don't much see the need to raise them from EP. If everyone to my left is SUPERTIGHT, perhaps. But if its relatively loose and passive, raising for a hand that's not going to see many favorable flops oop I think is spewing.
(2) Re: limping is bad- again, this is full ring at a table that's relatively passive. When a table is passive pf, you're better off seeing a lot of flops cheaply. If this table was particularly aggressive or if the opponents were particularly good, then I would usually fold this in this position. I called the raise here specifically because I feel confident that my postflop play will be fine AND because the guy raising has already shown himself to be an idiot. If it was a tight player I'd lay it down.

Quote:

Also, I would c/r the turn and push river. Anything that's not a trashy steal will stay in. You weren't getting money from anyone who was folding anyway.





You may be right. I was afraid to show too much strength. Remember, I didn't actually give this guy credit for having anything. If he was a tight-nit, then I would actually have played it more aggressively because he's likely to have Aces or Kings. This player was a huge bluffer. I feared if I showed anymore strength, the guy would lay down. (remember... this is results oriented but the guy only had king high.) I am with you in most cases... I just thought this guy was trying to steal and there's no way he could play with any aggression on my part.


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Shaddux
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 06/28/06
Posts: 1778
Loc: Duke University
Re: Regarding all the "how do I extract posts".... [Re: kurto]
      #7450511 - 09/27/06 04:38 PM

Thanks for posting this.

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EMcModerator
The People's Mod


Reged: 02/24/05
Posts: 7663
Loc: LETS GO YANKEES!!
Re: Regarding all the "how do I extract posts".... [Re: Shaddux]
      #7450554 - 09/27/06 04:41 PM

welcome to the eventual uNL sticky.

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MortenTA
old hand


Reged: 01/30/05
Posts: 1077
Loc: making $ not warcraft
Re: Regarding all the "how do I extract posts".... [Re: kurto]
      #7451185 - 09/27/06 05:26 PM

nice post

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xwillience
Carpal \'Tunnel


Reged: 04/05/05
Posts: 3646
Loc: Insanity.
Re: Regarding all the "how do I extract posts".... [Re: ChipStorm]
      #7451206 - 09/27/06 05:27 PM

Quote:

Quote:

BET.



qft

nh kurto




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advilandy
member


Reged: 02/09/06
Posts: 196
Loc: Valuetown
Re: Regarding all the "how do I extract posts".... [Re: MortenTA]
      #7451376 - 09/27/06 05:40 PM

Nice post, but I think it's more important to bet pp's from ep than from lp. This accomplishes isolation in the event that someone with a decent hand calls (hopefully a donk with AK decides to "slowplay" you) and when you flop your set which is what you're trying to do with 7's, your hand is wayyy more disguised.

I am advocating a 2.5bb raise here so that people come along with hands you will get to try and stack you when you hit your set. While I do see the advantage of spew control by limping, I don't think it outweighs the fact that you're probably not risking that much of your stack with a raise and after the raise you will be more likely to get all in against TPTK or something like that. I dunno, I like to double when I hit my sets.


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duckman
old hand


Reged: 03/30/05
Posts: 778
Re: Regarding all the "how do I extract posts".... [Re: EMc]
      #7451398 - 09/27/06 05:43 PM

I think it is great that so many of the more experienced posters are taking time to share their knowledge.

Thank you.
Best
Karl


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