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General Poker Discussion >> Beginners Questions

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BermudaDude
stranger


Reged: 09/26/07
Posts: 10
AK preflop. Question on Concept 22 in NLHTAP.
      #13193106 - 11/30/07 08:30 PM

According to Sklansky and Millers book, AK is *often* a good hand to make big reraises and all-in moves with. How much does your position effect this decision and how ? Could someone show me an example where AK might not be a good all-in hand preflop ? (You are free to choose stack sizes, position etc.)

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AlanMacNeill
stranger


Reged: 11/30/07
Posts: 3
Re: AK preflop. Question on Concept 22 in NLHTAP. [Re: BermudaDude]
      #13193506 - 11/30/07 09:03 PM

It kinda depends on the AK...

AK suited is the 3rd most powerful pre-flop hand. You're only dominated by AA and KK (and KK isn't even too horrible). Plus, you have nut flush possibilities.

AK unsuited is still powerful, since NLHE is a game of highest pair most of the time (not *all* the time...many folks have lost a ton of money going all in with top pair top kicker), but you're lacking the nut flush possibilities (Well...unless you catch 4 to your ace).

It's not a "made" hand either way...so someone with QQ or JJ is technically ahead of you (it's a coin flip if you're suited, but you're the one that needs to catch, and you're behind in the 52-48 percent chase...4% is a large difference no matter what they say on tv)), and those are the kinds of hands folks will push all-in with.

So it's not necessarily a hand to stake your life on if someone with around your stack size pushes all in before you...it's a coin flip, and you really don't want to chance a tourney on a coin flip, you want to chance it when you're clearly ahead.


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Paul McSwizzle
member


Reged: 11/04/07
Posts: 194
Re: AK preflop. Question on Concept 22 in NLHTAP. [Re: AlanMacNeill]
      #13193826 - 11/30/07 09:35 PM

Quote:

It kinda depends on the AK...

AK suited is the 3rd most powerful pre-flop hand. You're only dominated by AA and KK (and KK isn't even too horrible). Plus, you have nut flush possibilities.

AK unsuited is still powerful, since NLHE is a game of highest pair most of the time (not *all* the time...many folks have lost a ton of money going all in with top pair top kicker), but you're lacking the nut flush possibilities (Well...unless you catch 4 to your ace).

It's not a "made" hand either way...so someone with QQ or JJ is technically ahead of you (it's a coin flip if you're suited, but you're the one that needs to catch, and you're behind in the 52-48 percent chase...4% is a large difference no matter what they say on tv)), and those are the kinds of hands folks will push all-in with.

So it's not necessarily a hand to stake your life on if someone with around your stack size pushes all in before you...it's a coin flip, and you really don't want to chance a tourney on a coin flip, you want to chance it when you're clearly ahead.




22-AA are all ahead of you "hot and cold."

To the OP, position isn't really that important when you are just shoving AIPF because there is no post-flop play.


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AlanMacNeill
stranger


Reged: 11/30/07
Posts: 3
Re: AK preflop. Question on Concept 22 in NLHTAP. [Re: Paul McSwizzle]
      #13194358 - 11/30/07 10:23 PM

True. AK is behind all pocket pairs.

I was just emphasizing the QQ or JJ because those are the kinds of hands folks will push all-in before the flop with a lot quicker than 66 (for example)


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smbruin22
Carpal \'Tunnel


Reged: 08/31/05
Posts: 2524
Re: AK preflop. Question on Concept 22 in NLHTAP. [Re: AlanMacNeill]
      #13194413 - 11/30/07 10:28 PM

do people prefer AKo with 2-3 all-in over 1 all-in? i think i've seen both arguments. i'd say more as you can have two lower pocket pairs against you. don't forget your AKo is cutting down the probability of facing AA or KK (although it still seems to happen alot)

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BermudaDude
stranger


Reged: 09/26/07
Posts: 10
Re: AK preflop. Question on Concept 22 in NLHTAP. [Re: Paul McSwizzle]
      #13198268 - 12/01/07 06:55 AM

Quote:


To the OP, position isn't really that important when you are just shoving AIPF because there is no post-flop play.




Ok. This noob just thought that since it is not a made hand there could be some thinking to do: What hands does one want people to fold still maximising the expectation ? And moving in in what position, are they most likely to do so. The AK having been pretty tight, is a hand like 99 more likely to fold after having been reraised by the AK compared to first having to act after AK moves in ?


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Albert Moulton
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 01/15/05
Posts: 2377
Loc: Live Full Ring NLHE
Re: AK preflop. Question on Concept 22 in NLHTAP. [Re: BermudaDude]
      #13199416 - 12/01/07 11:14 AM

Being all-in tends to negate any positional advantage. In fact, when it comes time to push or fold, being first to act is often an advantage because you have what Harrington calls "first in vigorish," a.k.a. maximum fold equity.

So, moving all-in with AK is better than with 22-66, for example, because it will typically do better when called than most small pairs.

For example, let's say that the blinds are high, somebody raises, and you reraise all-in with AK expecting to get called by any pair, A7+, and KQ. Vs a {22+,A7s+,KQs,A7o+,KQo} range, AK has 59% equity. Even vs any pair {22+}, AK has 43.5% equity. Buy 44, for example, has only 44% equity vs {22+,A7s+,KQs,A7o+,KQo}. And 44 vs any pair (22+} has only a 29.5% equity.

So, while it's true that "hot and cold" AK is behind pocket pairs (except AKs vs 22 when they don't share suits), AK is never very much of a dog vs anything except AA. Even vs KK, AK has 31% equity. But low pairs, when called by a higher pair, have less than 19% equity, which is the same as AK vs only KK-AA. In fact, AK is only is terrible shape vs exactly AA where it has only 8% equity.

So, AK is often a good all-in hand because it does better, on average, when called than most other hands. When combined with some fold equity, AK becomes a powerful all-in hand in many circumstances preflop.

AK might not be a good all-in hand if stacks are deep and you have no need to get into a coin flip situation (or worse) early in a tournament. For example, AK is not very good if you face a raise and a reraise from tight players early in the tournament when stacks are deep, since at least one of them might very well have a big pair. You should often fold AK in that kind of situtation.

Edited by Albert Moulton (12/01/07 11:17 AM)


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D_Lonnigan
newbie


Reged: 10/29/07
Posts: 32
Re: AK preflop. Question on Concept 22 in NLHTAP. [Re: Albert Moulton]
      #13199688 - 12/01/07 11:48 AM

great post Albert.

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Small Fry
old hand


Reged: 09/26/06
Posts: 761
Loc: Livermore, CA
Re: AK preflop. Question on Concept 22 in NLHTAP. [Re: BermudaDude]
      #13199975 - 12/01/07 12:17 PM

Full ring NL cash game. BLinds 1/2. Relatively aggressive (typically have a preflop raise). Your in the cut off with AK. Stack sizes between 150-220.

UTG, Relatively tight, thinking player, limps in. UTG +2 calls, MP2 (tricky player who sometimes tries to make fancy moves)raises to 12 . Folds to you and you decide to reraise him and bet 36. Folds to UTG who comes over the top popping it up to 100. MP2 folds and now it's to you.

This is a spot where I'd lay AK down. The way the action played out and with what we know about UTG I'd put him on two hands, AA or KK, leaning more toward AA. His raise amount tells you that he's committed to calling should you push all in.

Now if UTG folded and MP2 repopped it I might push. He's a different player. His range is much wider than UTG, so while he might still have a decent pair, QQ, JJ, we have some outs. He could even have a hand like A,J so we could be way ahead. We might have some fold equity. When you factor in everything we're probably getting the correct odds against his range to put it all in here.


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