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General Poker Discussion >> Beginners Questions

Pages: 1
rodders133
journeyman


Reged: 04/16/07
Posts: 67
Always going bust to set over set?
      #13168287 - 11/29/07 08:20 AM

Ok, I was playing online 20NLHE full ring last night. I had $25. I limped in early pos with 44. 5 players saw an unraised flop of 4c 5d jd. I didnt like the flushing board or straight draw possibilities and bet the pot.
There were 2 folds, a min raise and a call. I went all in and both players called. One was on a flush draw and the other had pocket 5`s, which took the pot and stacked me.

Questions;

1. Given the above scenario, did I play this hand correctly. If not what should I have done differently?

2. I can remember quite a few occasions where I have gone bust holding an underset, but only once where I have had the overset to someone elses underset and bust them. Is this mainly due to limping in with small pairs?, should I be folding maybe 66 and below even to no raise, as obviously the higher the pair you see a flop with the less chance there is of running into an overset, or in the long run would I make more $ with these small sets busting overpairs etc.

3. Starting hands in general; At the moment my starting hand requirements are quite standard. I always thought I was quite tight, but now I`m not so sure. I have had Pokeroffice for a few weeks now and I am starting to see my level of `tightness` compared to other players. I am maybe seeing 20-23% flops, where others are seeing 10-15% (not all, but some). I understand at this level it should be fairly tight abc poker.

So what hands am I playing that I shouldnt be.....

I will limp in any pos with any pp in unraised pot
I will limp in any pos with KJs, KTs, QJs, TJs
I will limp in late pos with Axs
I will limp in early with AJ, AQ, AT
I will raise any pp TT and above, AK, and AQ in lp,

Any feedback would be much appreciated


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rascony
newbie


Reged: 11/05/06
Posts: 25
Re: Always going bust to set over set? [Re: rodders133]
      #13168508 - 11/29/07 09:02 AM

If you are micro stakes, nl, and full ring:
Quote:

I will limp in any pos with any pp in unraised pot



Raise in any unraised pots 66+ mp to lp, depending on table I might fold 22+ - 55+ in ep, otherwise limp might be meh.
Quote:

I will limp in any pos with KJs, KTs, QJs, TJs



fold pf. In CO or Button, raise, no limp.
Quote:

I will limp in late pos with Axs



Raise in lp, especially if unraised. If raised pot, in late position, call is again meh, though reraise with AQs+, but it is again read dependent.
Quote:

I will limp in early with AJ, AQ, AT



Raise
Quote:

I will raise any pp TT and above, AK, and AQ in lp



Good.

These situations are all read dependent. Starting hands are a guide, though you should be looking at other factors in addition to your own holdings.

Look forward to other opinions. There are also good threads in the micro stakes nl forum in the sticky:
micro stakes essential reading thread


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GeeBeeQED
member


Reged: 09/22/07
Posts: 109
Re: Always going bust to set over set? [Re: rodders133]
      #13168514 - 11/29/07 09:03 AM

You should have gone bust. It's hard to get away from a set here. You played it well. You win over the long run making the correct plays. You won when you made the correct play here......In a way, a real way long term.

Now, if your in mid to late pos with 44 and it goes raise, reraise, you call (questionable with a small pair excepting huge implied odds) and the flop comes AKQ or AKJ or KQJ, gets checked, the turn gives you a 4 for your set. Now the orginal raiser or reraiser makes a bet or moves in. Now you've got a quandry. I'm leaning towards calling here but I don't like it. I'd rather have been the pusher and lost than a caller here. I think most would agree this would not be a comfortable call.

If instead the action preflop was raise, reraise, reraise then you call, same flops and action as above I'd say it's pretty clear you fold your set of 4's on the turn if that stacks are large. It's a marginal call at best if you call.

A rock that you know only raises up front with AK,AA or KK raises, you call, the flop comes TJQ, check check you get the 4 on the turn. He raises big, reraises or moves in. Now you have a tough decision. What if you get any A or any K on the flop with this player and your 4? It's almost as bad. I'm essentially going to look at chip stacks here. If he moves in with a short stack, I'm calling, if it's a big stack, I might leave. (Think about the kinds of hands rocks move in with) If he's passive but calling, I'm keeping the pot under control and not turning into a pig. I figure probably about 60% of the time I'm drawing at a boat here. Maybe one of the pokerstove experts could work out the exact number. It would be interesting to be corrected here.

Another might be you get your set but the flop is all one suit. You should pot bet this. Checking here is industrial strength stupid. You get called, even in one place, next card off makes 4 of same suit on board. Do you see all the trouble your in? Do you pot it again? Do you check? From what pos? How do you respond to a reraise or big raise here? This is a sick hand nobody wants to face. How can you do anything but fold to a bet here, and then try to hold in the Helmuth tirade I'm feeling.

There are not too many situations where you lay down a set. I might do this one in 3-4 8 hour live NL sessions but I have done it. If you didn't lose alot with one most of the time it is because your a pathetic kitten and your seeing danger around every corner and you check to hide your head. You played it correctly barring any reads or other info not provided.

Dave


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Donkenstein
newbie


Reged: 11/08/07
Posts: 26
Re: Always going bust to set over set? [Re: GeeBeeQED]
      #13168603 - 11/29/07 09:18 AM

Yes you go broke most of the time with an underset if push comes to shove and someone bets you all in. Unless you have a dead to rights read on the other guy there is just no getting away from it. You will make money on the hand in the long run and thats how you should be looking at it IMO.

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rodders133
journeyman


Reged: 04/16/07
Posts: 67
Re: Always going bust to set over set? [Re: Donkenstein]
      #13168905 - 11/29/07 09:57 AM

Thanks for your replies. I think what threw me in the hand in original post was that the guy who had flopped the set of 5`s only called the min raise from the guy who was flushing.
I think one of my problems is that I try to put myself in someone elses position and think,`they cant have that cos if I had it, I wudda done this`, ie- if I had the set of 5`s I wud hav reraised. Or do you think this was good play by him, maybe his thinking that if a non diamond turn came, he could push.(but what if a diamond came).
Not saying I could have put him on an overset and if he did reraise I would still have stacked off.


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djcarter66
newbie


Reged: 11/14/07
Posts: 44
Re: Always going bust to set over set? [Re: Donkenstein]
      #13168913 - 11/29/07 09:58 AM

Standard, granted people might get nitty and play a little differently but are you really going to fold a flopped set to a raise or even an all in?, no.

You would have to have an absolute dead read on someone, maybe like another poster said after an extended live session but sitting down with an unknown online for an hour you going to go broke but yes it is the right play.


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rodders133
journeyman


Reged: 04/16/07
Posts: 67
Re: Always going bust to set over set? [Re: rascony]
      #13168960 - 11/29/07 10:02 AM

Quote:

I will limp in any pos with KJs, KTs, QJs, TJs



fold pf. In CO or Button, raise, no limp.
Thanks for this, I had a feeling this was one of my leaks


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GeeBeeQED
member


Reged: 09/22/07
Posts: 109
Re: Always going bust to set over set? [Re: rodders133]
      #13195926 - 12/01/07 12:56 AM

Quote:

.......I think one of my problems is that I try to put myself in someone elses position and think,`they cant have that cos if I had it, I wudda done this`,............




You should be thinking like this. My opponent appears to be x experiance level, x age, x attitude, in x frame of mind right now. There for it's most likely hes thinking "X" right now about his hand, He's thinking I have "X" and he's thinking that I think he as "X".

With some players you don't get past the first level. They are not thinking about anything but the two cards they hold. Better players think a level or two deeper. Not trying to get cosmic here, just don't assume everybody would play as you.

Dave


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pzhon
Carpal \'Tunnel


Reged: 03/23/04
Posts: 4515
Re: Always going bust to set over set? [Re: rodders133]
      #13196740 - 12/01/07 02:20 AM

Quote:


1. Given the above scenario, did I play this hand correctly. If not what should I have done differently?



The only chance you had to get away reasonably was preflop. Low pairs are not a gold-mine. They are marginal hands. Almost no one is winning a lot with middle pairs, and low pairs flop fewer straight draws and are more vulnerable to other sets. Running into a higher set often costs you your stack, so although it is rare, it has a significant effect on the value of a marginal hand.

That said, I think it was right to limp as you did in a microstakes game where the players tend to be more passive, and will tend to overvalue their hands and pay you off once you hit.

Against some tight opponents, or ones you can identify as set-miners, you can get away from some bottom sets. However, it's not very valuable to do that when the stacks are less than about 150 BB. Much more important is to try to maximize the value you get from weaker hands and to protect your hand from draws, since these are much more common and the value you can get is large relative to your stack.


Quote:

should I be folding maybe 66 and below even to no raise,




Sometimes. It feels great to flop a set and get paid off, but don't confuse fun with profit. If someone behind you is loose and aggressive, and is raising a lot of pots after limpers, then it might be clearly right to fold 66 to no raise. In case that player picks up AA, and you flop a set, you will probably be able to get all of the money in, and you will probably win. However, you are not nearly as likely to get paid off enough when he is loose enough to raise weaker hands like KJ, and is much less likely to want to put his whole stack in.

Quote:

I understand at this level it should be fairly tight abc poker.



That is one of many types of winning styles.

It is often incorrectly stated that when your opponents are loose, you should play more tightly. Actually, when your opponents are loose, that adds more dead money and makes many marginal hands profitable, so you can play slightly more loosely, and should if you want to maximize your prfits. However, you can also play tightly and still profit. When your opponents play badly, you may be able to choose from many ways to exploit them.

Quote:


I will limp in any pos with any pp in unraised pot




You should raise a lot of the higher pairs for value. You only said you would raise high pairs in late position, but you should find it profitable to raise with 88 or 99 in middle position, and of course late position, too.

By the way, if everyone has folded in front of you, then it is usually right to raise any hand worth playing in middle or late position. If you don't think it is profitble to raise, it probably isn't profitable to open-limp, although over-limping may be profitable.

Quote:


I will limp in early with AJ, AQ, AT




No, you should fold ATo, and quite possibly AJo, in early position. Some people also fold AQo UTG, although I believe it is profitable to limp with that. If you are playing 6-handed, there is no early position, and you probably should raise these, although ATo can be marginal.


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