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PL/NL Texas Hold'em >> Small Stakes

Pages: 1
bubaloo
veteran


Reged: 03/09/07
Posts: 1369
Loc: Hero calls FTL.
The Well: BobboFitos (Summary 05/04/07)
      #13155219 - 11/28/07 01:41 PM

The Well: BobboFitos (Summary 05/04/07)

Quote:

A stranger is being shown around a village that he has just become part of. He is shown a well and his guide says "On any day except tuesday, you can shout any question down that well and you'll be told the answer" . The man seems pretty impressed, and so he shouts down: Why not on tuesday? and the voice from in the well shouts back: Because on tuesday, its your day in teh well .




On my book:
I have been in the process for the past ~2 years of writing a no limit holdem book. In the middle of that, I took almost a full year off when I wasnt playing/posting. I finished it 2 or so weeks ago, and am now in the process of editing and adding hand examples. I hope to submit it and get through the process of publishing, soon. All I can say about it, (with the exception of Coltrane/Matt Flynn book, which should be good, too) is that it goes above and beyond anything else written by a huge margin.

On poker:
I've played up to 10/20 online and 10/20 live. I've played for ~4+ years at this point, and have played in numerous cardrooms: Online at so, so many sites. Boston and NYC underground clubs. Turningstone, Foxwoods, Las Vegas casinos. At one point I was a "professional," where I was not going to school and just playing. Now I go to school, and coach & play to a degree, and I would no longer consider myself "professional".

On my coaching:
I have coached many, many players, and with the exception of ML4L, was one of the pioneers of formulating lessons and coaching fellow players. Some of my students (past students) have done very well for themselves. In their interest I wont disclose names, but I'm fairly confident I'm the best coach period. Not to say anyone from 3bet.net etc. are not good - in fact, quite the opposite, many of their coaches are real life friends who are incredibly good poker players - but I dont think (once again, with the exception of ML4L) anyone has the pedigree of "students who have done well for themselves."

On my schooling:
I have been to 3 colleges. I started at RPI, then abandoned ship. Then I went to Fairfield University, then abandoned that one, too. Currently, I am at College of Marin. I hope to finish at either UMass, UMaryland, or UDelaware. I started as an engineering major, switched to communications, and am currently a philosophy major. I plan on going to law(l) school, but need to finish college first.

On my life:
I live in the Bay Area at the moment, although it's been quite a journey, as evidence by transferring 3 times already, and going for lucky number 4. I'm an east coast guy at heart, since I went to boarding school for high school in western MA, and grew up in CT. Right now I'm in a difficult situation since many of my good friends are in the NE. However, I do have a gf, which helps matters immensely. =)
-----

Probably alot more, please ask me any questions. I'm solid at non poker questions, although obviously not an expert in anything but poker.

can you give a poker history, breakdown of #hands/lvl and a little bit of you take on the current environment post legislation.

Poker history -

I started playing the summer before my senior year. So, roughly 4 years ago. I played with my friends from high school - a few post here, including Green Kool Aid (highest on my FLB) and Sk00lb0y.
We played NL25 with .5 and 1 dollar blinds. Yes, incredibly short stacked. We also believed in tells - my first poker book was Caro's Book of Tells. lol, no joke.
Dave (Green Kool Aid) showed me poker room and poker stars play money, where he would just shove all in every hand and laugh. I was immensely intrigued.
I realized the only 2 ways for me to get money online (since I didnt have neteller, or any real money aside from what I had saved from my summer job, which was a special cares counselor - not even 1k) was to win a free tournament (I tried very very hard, and final tabled a few of the 3k pools and stuff.. although, if you final tabled, you only got into the sunday 150$ tournament, which you then had to final table. sadly, the tournament route just wasnt going to cut it!) or sell play money chips. So...
I began playing play money on pokerstars and amassed several million play chips - obviously I was terrible, but I took it seriously, and no one else did. Somehow, and this was the breaking point, someone bought my chips for 10 bucks. Later someone told me I could've gotten like 50$ or so, which is truly mind boggling.
I bought a ton of poker books throughout this, including super system, theory of poker, advanced holdem, etc. I have read each of those books atleast twice, and super system probably ~5 to 10 times. (The no limit section)
So, I lost half the 10 bucks instantly playing 1c/2c. Since it was still the summer, GKA was with me, and we opted to use the last 5bucks and change on a sit and go. He remembers that vividly, saying I made a big semibluff on the bubble or something, (I dont really recall) and obviously I got lucky and hit it and won the tournament.
From there, together (we shared my account) we played 1c/2c until we had a bankroll around ~50. Sometime my senior year (still playing in home games, too, where the big buyin was 20 bucks) Dave and i played a 3$ tournament where we won-1st was ~900. We decided to split it, and finally play separate accounts.
I then for the rest of my senior year played 4 tables of .5-1 and 1-2 LIMIT holdem. (full ring of course, they didnt have shorthanded that long ago!) I didnt have PT, and was a marginal winner. I also played alot of stud; .25-.5 through 1-2.
During our spring break (March sometime) I went to turningstone. This was very exciting for us; (Went with sk00lb0y and GKA) I even made an ultra gay itinerary. My sister went to Syracuse, and I had some friends there, so we were able (for the ~4day long trip) stay in my friend's Rollie's girlfiend's dorm room, (he stayed with his GF) which was awesome for us bc it was an all girls floor. Turningstone, then, did not run any no limit games!!! So, Wes and GKA played 1-3 spread, and I was the "Baller" playing 2-4 limit.
Anyway, including live play with friends, I finished that year with a bankroll around 1,000. During the summer I played every night after camp (I was a counselor) and logged insane work days (I have no energy nowadays so I wonder hwo i did it; id get up at 8, work in the hot sun until 430, workout w/ Rollie until 6, sometimes go out and party, and play poker from whenever i got home until 2 or 3, then sleep 4 hours or so). I played mainly MTTs and limit holdem-I liked no limit but just (crazily) felt you needed to "see someone to get a read on them." At this time I discovered 2p2 thanks to a friend, Evan Naismith. (Luckycharms on 2p2). I started posting ridiculous advice, pretty much quoting good old doyle about not going broke in limped pots and such to small stakes. Back then 2p2 didnt have high/mid/small, and i remember i was v v v intimidated to post anything in higher stakes. good thing i didnt, i was awful.
When I went to RPI, I strangely believed tournaments were the way to go. I didnt make too much money over the summer, maybe 1k tops from poker? So my roll was less then 2k. I played all the micros, 5$, 10$, rebuy etc. i could. (I won a few small ones) Quick funny anecdote: I skipped a math lecture and won a 1$ daily tournament or something for 250$. Dave (GKA) laughed and broke it down how much the lecture I skipped likely cost me; it was more then the 250 i won. I skipped actually alot of classes, and became technically a part time student. mainly because i was failing so much because it was so so hard and i played poker so so much.
the cool thing about RPI is its close to turningstone; i would go often there w/ several friends, including "Mehndamassah" and luckycharms (who went to union).
My first lesson about BR management: Mehndamassah (who does not post on 2p2, and is not a good player, but was a big tournament guy on pokerstars for a while) picked me up and we planned on going to TS for a week. We planned on playing the 1-2 NL game, 100$ buyin. How much did each of us bring? 250 dollars.
So, we booked the room for a week, and went brkoe the first day. I'll never forget playing MDM heads up for red bull since we had no money for food. We had to call a friend to put money in MDM's bank accuont so we could "win back our money." (and called a friend to come pick us up...)
During december break, i contemplated not going back to school, but my mother urged me to try for another semester. I went to visit Williston (my boarding school) along w/ a friend named Jay and Dave (GKA). Somehow I had some party poker money (maybe 50 bucks or so? I dont really recall) and one night while up there dave and i could've gone to a party, but chose to play a 30$ MTT. We got lucky throughout; we both remember having 99 on T x x flop, pushing all in, called by QT, and spiking a 9. that was lovely. We wont that for a 6k score.
We split that down the middle, and now with party money, I decided to reenergize myself with cash games. I played a mixture of limit (up to 30/60, which i beat for a good margin) and NL. I think by this time they had shorthanded tables, but I'm not positive.
ANYWAY - I went back to school, and promptly withdrew by march. That is when I chose to go to boston and become a "professional" by multitabling NL100+ games on pokerstars/party, where I lived at Tufts w/ Gary Stevenson. (we became v good friends, he was my friend from HS, nathan's roommate). gary and i played largely the same games then - it was v funny, 2am through 8am or whatnot, us back to back with multiple tables. i loved chatting about hands (and posting on 2p2...) and he did not like talking. i woudl SHOUT (and wake nathan) about good/bad beats, he would just make the "shhh" motion and tell me to STFU.
That was also when Gary (real name, Alex) and I would take the T to braintree/around boston for underground games. That was fun. We would discuss hands/situations together, and that was probably when I improved by leaps and bounds. At that time I also was getting coached by a 2p2er who never posts anymore named BK (brian Kennedy) who, at that point, was a top poster/player (although more in limit then no limit) and I benefitted immensely.
As "fun" as that sounded, though, alot of elements lacked, and after a month I returned home. My mother made me promise not to play poker, since she blamed that as the cause of me failing out. So, I picked up my 2p2ing and that was when I decided to coach. She was pretty pumped about that, as it was a small business. I charged 40$/hr at first, LOL.
Anycase, the allure of poker was too strong, and I started playing on several sites, including FTP, jetset poker, true poker, and good old party/stars.
That summer my bankroll was very veddy nice, and I remember how much of a "baller" I was then; i bought a new car (special edition civic which was really cool) as well as went to TS for the tuorney week and played the "big game" (WHICH WAS 5-5 NL LOLOL) and the big tourney (1.5k buyin?) that was somewhat of a highpoint, as my car tore up the BR (20k of 30k or w/e)
At Fairfield U I coached more then I played (Several clients would always ask me why i didnt play more..) but i did play live quite a bit. (it was fun going into NYC; Gary, who took a break from Tufts, went with me from time to time) that was when I met TWP, Mikech, voltron, etc.
At that time, I asked Cero Z (my favorite person on 2p2) if I coudl get coached by him. I thought there wasnt much i coudl gain anymore from reading 2p2 since people (then) withheld so much information. (The very good players) He agreed, and that was great. (I'd consider him a friend at this point) He improved my live game and shorthanded game without a doubt, since he knew how to REALLY think.
I got into an arrangement w/ Chaostreezie (~Staking) on a really soft site (Empire, which was at that point not a skin; it had become separate) on a 50/50 deal. He said the games were too good for me not to play (the highest was 10/20) and he was right. people sucked. I obviously for that time (maybe a month?) never went to class and played every table I could. (which wasnt many) Without a doubt I was the best player on that site.
Until... one day, v groggy, waking up at 5pm, i played and lost an insane amount of money (most of the winnings) I (then) was a huge tilt monkey.. some of my plays included 3handed cold calling/ then calling reraises with 83s, A4o, etc... it was really dirty. i do remember alot of bad luck too, but thats apart of poker.
Josh freaked after that, which I dont blame him, and we cancelled the deal. I was kinda shaken at the large sum of money i made/lost, and decided to take a long break from poker. unfortunately, world of warcraft hooked me in at that time. so, i didnt play (nor write my book) for a solid ~7 months or even 2p2 (that was when i took my break, iirc).
then i moved out to california, slowly weaned myself off wow (finally completely quit mid jan of this year) and slowly started playing again.
What do I make of the post legislation environment: I miss Party alot. I really am unhappy I never put in a ton of hands, aside from the 1 month in boston where I played an insane amount. My friends and I regret not focusing, since then we thought we would always be able to do it. I still believe the games are very soft, but thats bc i have an inflated self opinion of my game. (although results do back up that opinion)

Hands/level: My PT database has been lost so many times. I used to play (finally bought a new sick laptop a month ago) on a thinkpad. I loved my T42, but I lost all my PT data (each time of like 50k to 100k hands)

if i had to guess, id say ive probably played 80k hands of micro stakes(penny stakes to NL25), 300k of small stakes (NL100 especially and NL200) 300k of mid stakes (2-4 and 3-6, what im playing now) and 20k of high stakes.(10-20) including live.

PT stats? VPIP/PFR/AF, etc?

Full ring (9 and 10) I run around 26/16. Shorthanded (filtered for 5 and 6) I run around 31/26. My AF is ~4. (which is pretty effing high)

What stakes do you play?

Currently 2-4 and 3-6 NLH on PS.

Do you play professionally?

No, I am not considered a professional. (by myself or others)

Do you plan on playing for the rest of your life or do you use poker as a means to finance other investments/businesses, etc?

Well, I'm 21, so I use it to finance spending money and buying cool things that other people cant afford.

Any general tips for SSNL players about what they could be doing to become better?

Question EVERYTHING.

Did you have any "aha" moments where everything just started to click for you?

Very good question. The best "aha" moments I can think of: Playing a few summers ago at turningstone in the "big" game then of 5-5. I had a 1k stack or so, and called a raise from an old man with about the same w/ K9c on the button. It was 3way to the flop and it came 8 5 2 or something w/ 2 hearts. The old man bet a modest amount and I made a pot sized raise. Other dude folded. the old man shrugged, said 'i guess you have a flush draw but you are lucky' and folded kings. The idea of position and stack leveraging finally clicked there. Also, of insanely exploitable tendencies, such as that man would never have a hand he would back his stack with, since he would always see nightmares of a set and would never raise small pairs in MP.
Most people would probably view that as a spew, and if I could go back (knowing he had kings) I would never make that move. I really never, never try to make people fold big pairs (or top pair for that matter). But alot of things just made sense there.
The second one is one of my first lessons with Cero Z. We focused alot on limped pot play, since that "artform" is lost online with so many raised pots. I dont want to go into too many specifics, but hand reading in limped pots just became so easy because of him.
The third one is another live hand in the foxwoods uncapped 5-5. I was there with AZK, Fslexcduck, and Chaostrazie. The game was playing big (I was shortest) and i made (what i thought at the time) of a cero z type move w/ 66. (I actually posted this hand last year when it happened - i hate posting hands, but i was v proud of it because i thought it sorta evolved my game). Basically, it was 6 way to the flop of K 5 2, AZK had raised in MP, i had the button. it was chcked around and the turn was a 3. i forget exact action, and the board may be wrong, but i trusted the reads of the bad players around, got my money in, and got called by 74. (and didnt get outdrawn) there was decent thought on my part, and sorta being able to stick in alot of BBs in that pot made me feel good. (bc i was right)

Have any interesting hands you care to share? Biggest pot? A sick bluff? A sick call down? etc?

The biggest pot live ive lost was recently when I was in vegas playing 10-20 bellagio. i posted this in my trip report, but basically i got TT all in preflop vs AKo for a 4k+ pot or so, and a king hit the river. online there were alot of big 10-20 pots when i played there, but they arent as fun, because live with chips makes things seem more real.
The worst beat I've ever taken is i overlimped K9d in 3-6 online. 9 9 6r, checked to me ~4 way and i half potted it. 1 caller. the turn was a queen, villain checked, i potted it, he called. river was another queen, he bet 1/3 pot, he was semishort so i just put him all in, he called with AQo. WTF!
I remember alot more sick call downs then sick bluffs, because I am a calling station. I'll post somel ater in this thread im sure

What would your advice be for a thinking/winning SSNL player who just feels like they have hit their "poker potential ceiling?"

1. no one ever hits their poker ceiling. even the best players can get better
2. try something new; not necessarily a new game, but a new strategy. you'll find that mixing in unusual stuff may get you to think of your standard play as incorrect/not optimal
3. if you truly think you cannot get better, and are winning, play higher. higher does not necessarily mean better opponents, but it generally does. they will test you, which in turn will make you play better.

your PM box is full. Kindly check your email.
anyhoo,
your favorite live poker hand, ever? (and what happened).


PM box ~somewhat cleaned.
I think i posted a few fav live hands, that foxwoods 5-5 hand was cool.

this was a really funny hand too: http://www.angelfire.com/pro2/robshandoftheweek/Nov3rd
because i stacked my friend in a casino.

that site, as well, was my creation during RPI. it has some funny stuff on it, as well as real bad logic etc. heh..

Tx for doing this.

1. MTT's? Play them much? Biggest Cash?
2. How do you do at the non-NLHE games?
3. What's the online poker landscape look like in one year?


1. I havent played a MTT since the WCOOP. I really dont like donkaments. When I did play them, my best was a 30$ party poker 1st for 6k.
2. I consider myself an expert omaha hi-lo limit player. I consider myself solid at stud. I am adept at stud hilo. I consider myself a very good limit full ring player. I consider myself somewhat terrible at everything else (PLO, PLO8, razz, triple draw, shorthanded limit, etc.)
3. I think very similar to how it is now. This does hinge on getting the online bill killed though, and from what I hear, there is a chance of that happening.

this question is kind of dumb, but it popped into my head (i'll ask a better one later):
how can you write a book without a college education? i feel like i've learned so much about writing in the past four years. do you have someone to help you out? or are you depending on your editor? maybe you're just a naturally good writer (even so, there's so much to learn).
i dunno, i've always wanted to write a book...i think you doing that is far cooler than any poker success you've had.


Well, the book is not a catcher in the rye type book. it's similar to a 2p2 book, so, textbook style. some of my friends used to joke i had a phd in poker, hopefully then i have sufficient education in poker to write ABOUT poker.

Aha moments are the best. Care to post one more? Perhaps last one you had?
How is your coaching broken down - some sweating, some theory, some review, etc?


Basically, it's outlined like my book is. We begin with approaching the game, which includes the concept of aggressiveness as well as fundamental differences in HU -> 6max -> Full ring. Then we start with preflop play; i try to explain the "why" we do the things we do rather then "what we should do." When we get to the flop, we break down bet sizing, which is incredibly important yet not talked about enough. We also mention balancing our bets on the flops with times to check behind, how to play draws (in raised and limped pots). on the turn the topics are pot control, 1 pair OOP, and 2nd barreling. the river we deal w/ paying off, value betting, bluffing, and river checkraises.

1 more ah hah moment - i played in the first HSNL HU tourney. (actually, i've played in all the HU tourneys) It had one of the hardest fields, to be truthful. I played bc although the money was nice, and I felt I was +EV, I wanted to play against very good players and beat them. I ended up cashing, and lost to HEK (I should have won that match! =) )
that was good for me, because poker is largely about confidence. When I lost my confidence in Feb. 2006 my game suffered immensely and it took me a while to get back to my previous level.

if you believe yourself to be one of the best coaches, what do you think is keeping you from playing (and beating) 5/10 and higher?
sorry if the tone of this post is poor, it's not meant to come off as attacking your credibility (because I read your posts, and your advice is very, very frequently spot on)


tone is not poor, i dont take offense whatsoever. its a great q -

the main reason I dont play higher is because my online bankroll is just under 20k. Im quite comfortable at 2-4 and 3-6, and although 5-10 is close in skill level, thats more variance then i need for now. nothing is keeping me from beating those games aside from playing them =p
one of my real regrets with regard to poker is that i didnt log enough hands to build my online br when the games were super soft. i would've loved to play in those UB 50-100 games, for example, but now i no longer have that desire.

How many 2p2ers have you met IRL?

many. I think I've enjoyed them all, some more then others though.

It wouldnt do justice to just list random people, but I've met alot of people, which is nice considering the amount of time I spend talking to these people on aim/etc.

es (2:43:54 AM): and post "aejones just wants to know what you think of him, but he is silenced since he's banned"

ship ship mcgipp


I've played some hands with him online, but not enough to base any relevant conclusions. I love him as a poster, though, because he's not afraid to post what he thinks, and also approaches the game uniquely. Do I agree with everything he thinks? Obviously not, but I like his thought processes most of the time. So.. I think quite highly of him.

Dumbest poker play you've ever seen someone do live?

LOL too many to list man. generally my funny moments involve weak tight players w/ 2nd or 3rd nuts and using a while to think about the decision, (esp. when its an easy snap call) and folding faceup. nothing makes me happier in live play then a weak tight fold which is shown.

Name the ways/resources you use besides the forum to study for poker.

Pokerstove and Pokertracker. People should spend a comparable amount of time using those as they do with 2p2.

are you the guy im living with this summer?
what are your rates, as a coach?


I think im living with you, no idea. Futuredoc, ASpoker, GKA, and I guess you? Should be awesome =)

125/sesh until the end of the month when they're 150/sesh.

Quote:

Quote:

Dumbest poker play you've ever seen someone do live?




LOL too many to list man. generally my funny moments involve weak tight players w/ 2nd or 3rd nuts and using a while to think about the decision, (esp. when its an easy snap call) and folding faceup. nothing makes me happier in live play then a weak tight fold which is shown.



rob, dont forget about all the times you lie about your hand after you fold. "yea i folded 2pr, figured you had to have the set. nice hand, it was a realllllly tough laydown"
i always enjoyed those


ok, good point. I lie about my hand always, because I make big folds so rarely. The few times i have made a big fold I've lied abotu that, too. Who knows why.

Bobbo - 3-4 weeks ago I was in Vegas. It was about 5am give or take 3 hours and I had just stumbled out of LIGHT nightclub at the Bellagio quite intoxicated. I was wearing a white shirt with a black suede sport coat. I dont remember much except that I played some drunken poker at the Bellagio. I was obviously talking with everyone and goofing off, and somehow me and the 2 guys next to me started talking about 2+2. One of them said he could be identified by his John Stockton avatar on 2+2. I then vaguely remember trying to start a fight with a guy 3 times my size at the table.

Then I think I had the bright idea to get some food at Bally's since I had free food vouchers. By the time me and the 2+2ers walked from the Bellagio to Bally's I had drunkenly lost the vouchers. I think we grubbed there and played Keno. I have no clue how I found my way back to my room or if I slept in an alley.

Were you the one of the 2+2ers that night? If so, how intoxicated was I one a 1-10 scale. Also had you just woken up for the day, or were you still up from the prior night like myself?


DAVE K!!! Yes, you are the man. Jesus Shuttlesworth (the guy with me, IRL friend who posts here) was Owen.

You and Owen played keno, i didnt because its -ev.. haha. the breakfast was solid.

I had been up all night, so when you came (since we started drinking with you) I wasnt fully coherent, either. You were a solid 6 or 7 on the drunken meter - you are an incredibly funny guy, esp. at the table.

I posted a trip report (ill go find it!) and at the end I added "I met Dave K, too" because for some reason that space (so tired and drank a little bit) I just forgot when i got my thoughts down. Here goes: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=9465159&an=&page=&vc=1
was a pleasure meeting you, Dave

Bobbo:
Most inspiring people in your life?
Dinner with any one person?
What percent of your net worth would you risk if somebody offered you 5:1 on a coinflip?


Most inspiring? Gosh, I dont know. This may seem like a silly pick but I love John Stockton for what he represented... hard work and loyalty.
Dinner with one person? Dead or alive? I assume I can then understand them? Gotta go with my main man, Socrates.
100% of my net worth. (or more and sell a % of myself! there's the jew in me!) Why? bc EV is EV and I'm young and capable of making money, so it's not like if i lose everything Im homeless.

Ok, I'm looking for advice.
I've been playing NL since the end of january and have played about 100k hands so far. Before this, I've pretty much played zero NL ring hands. Even before I started playing, I watched a lot of CR videos, and thought I had a good grasp of the game..... It took a while, but I've finally started to figure out how to play this game, and I think I'm definitely one of the better players now in the Stars 200nl games.
The only problem is that over this time I've become a complete nit and I don't really know if it's a problem or not.. My goal right now is to move up to 2/4 and 3/6 within a few months, and I have this idea in the back of my head that I'll HAVE to play looser than 19/17 to win at those levels, but I'm not sure. I basically no longer play pots out of position, but it definitely works for me. Will I have to open up more to be able to beat the current 400 and 600 games?
Also, over the past few weeks I've started doing being coached by your colleagues from 3bet.net, and its definitely a GREAT thing.


Quick note, I am not a member of 3bet.net. I think most (not all) of the coaches are very good at coaching and most (not all) are very good at playing, as well. But I am not affiliated with them, I do my own thing =)

So to your question:
Is it possible to win playing 19/17? Yes, I see players with those stats win all the time.

What do I think of them? Well, if you're a winner, you're a winner, and who am I to say one style is better then another? It's not my style, though.

I would say if you think it's time to move up, you should move up, and if it goes well, keep doing your thing. If its not, examine the why factor, and either change some little things, or go back and change them at NL200.

I play a succesfull 18/17/7 game with street aggression pf/f/t/r of 9/7.5/3/1.5 at 100-200NL
It is a simple concept based on being tight and very aggro, especially against fellow regulars.
But everytime I try to open my game in terms of vpip .... I spew .. maybe it is small sample sizes, maybe I really just spew, I have a felling it is the latter.
Yet I can't see what I am missing ????
A 30/25 game sounds so Utopian



It's certainly fun. It can be stressful, too. alot of literature has been written about "TAG vs LAG," and it would be silly of me at this point to put my own spin on it. The one thing that makes me more upset then anything is when I've been dancing and prancing (especially live) with a fish, winning and losing small pots in an effort to set them up, then a TAG just swipes in and stacks the fish with an overpair to top pair or whatever... It's as though all my hard work of creating opportunities was blown, and although I have an edge over that TAG, my immediate edge over the awful player will not be exercised. I'll end that rant =)

so, what are you missing? Well, one thing I try to say about pf numbers is that they dont tell the whole story. Although in general lags bluff more and nits never bluff, this is not universally true. So perhaps you've over adjusted and are just being aggressive in spots for aggressiveness sake when they dont really apply, who knows.

One funny thing. A few times to myself Ive said, "ok, today I'm going to play a TAG game." I just cant do it. I see hands TAGs wouldnt play, and I see a +EV spot, so I just cant pass it up. I imagine TAGs have the same mentality "today, I'm going to play a LAG game," and they see hands, they see a -EV spot, so they just cant force themselves to play them.

Quote:


I see hands TAGs wouldnt play, and I see a +EV spot, so I just cant pass it up.



Could you give an example of this?

J2s on the button folded to me

Thanks for taking the time to do this.
1. When you gave your rates above, could you clarify what a session is (i.e. is it a time period, review of a specific number of hands played in a session, etc.)?
2. I think I'm doing decent at NL 1/2 (with occasional stabs at NL 2/4 if I find a juicy table), and I don't really have any aspirations to move higher. How high of a winrate do you think one can realistically achieve at these levels, with coaching? What I'm trying to get at is if you think coaching is only going to benefit me more if I have aspirations of moving up?
3. How important do you think it is to "mix up your play", in the sense of playing different hands the same, at the SSNL levels?
4. And on a similar note, how important do you think bluffing is (not continuation bets, more like river bets/raises that represent big hands)?


1. sessions are roughly an hour which include a lecture part then a breakdown of hands. Occasionally i'll throw in a quiz.
2. 10ptbb, but this depends on how many tables you play.
3. On a scale of 10, 10 being incredibly important, 1 being not important whatsoever, it's a 2.
4. The ability to recognize a good bluff spot? Hmm. Since this is tied in with just basic hand reading, I'm going to say it's very important. Maybe a 6 or 7. Being able to bluff (somewhat of a confidence thing) is probabl a 7 or 8.

Do you think its possible for anyone to be a winning poker player as long as they put in the time and effort? If so, what level do you think a person could beat upto?

Yes. Poker is not like basketball where athleticism could be a limiting factor. To a degree, intelligence is a limiting factor, but not enough to preclude most (who put in the work) from beating up to fairly sizable online and live games. I would be just giving a random bizzare answer if I spat out a level, though.

Do you think that to be good at poker it takes some innate skills or is it something that is learned?

Learned. No one starts amazing, although some are able to learn and process the game much faster.

What is the orign/meaning of you 2p2 handle?

My real name is Rob, so Bobbo is just a nickname. Fitos, well, I wish I knew.

Bobbo, what advice would you give a SSNLer when moving up to midstakes?

Ever see the movie Hoosiers? At the end, when they go to play the Indiana championship game, Gene Hackman makes them measure the height of the court, distance from the hoop to the ground, etc. The point he makes is that despite this game being significant in that there is a large crowd/etc., the game is the same. Same thing applies to poker; it's more money, but that's it.

Bobbo,
I see you advocate more semi-bluff pushes than any other poster. Your variance must be super high. What's your largest downswing?


Interestingly, my variance is not super high. There are a bunch of reasons for this, but this thread 2 weeks ago explained why. Maybe: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...rt=all&vc=1

Quote:

we start with preflop play; i try to explain the "why" we do the things we do rather then "what we should do."



For example, how would you articulate your reasoning for raising J2s on the button when it's folded to you?

Blinds will fold alot
I'll win the pot on the flop alot
When neither of these happen, J2s can still make a hand.

Could you say something about hand reading...tips, approaches, thoughts on assigning ranges etc. I absolutely suck at putting people on hands/ranges in tight spots so any pointers or random thoughts much appreciated.
Cheers, and I love your posts.


Thanks chomps =)
Hand reading is just starting from alot and narrowing down to a little. The mistake too many people make though is completely remove a hand just bc villain may have played differently; the key is just bc one person does not play a hand a certain way doesnt mean everyone else will play that certain way too.

Is there any simple advice or suggestion that you can give as to how to think about when to be aggressive and when not to be?

One thing I teach fairly early in my sessions is being able to defend your play. Basically, when you bet, WHY did you bet? Value? Protection? Bluff? Oftentimes there truly is no explicit benefit (nor spillover externality!) w/ a bet, so a check makes alot more sense.

Here are some weird spots where I advocate checks: (some % of the time)
K4s raised CO, K 55r
A8o raised CO, 8s 7s 6h
QTs raised UTG, 9 8 6r
each one for slightly different reason.

There was a recent post by Snowball (sp?) that went against the at the time current SSNL advice of checking behind mediocre hands on the turn for pot control. Do you find it hard to balance the ideas of "betting for value", "betting for metagame", "pot control", "protecting your stack and not your hand", etc.?

I think too many people check the turn way too frequently, and people are missing alot of value. Betting for metagame is largely irrelevant, though. Without reading what he wrote, I'd probably agree with his premise, but of course I'd nit pick some specifics.

Who is villain in your hand? I think snake (just read over in MSNL) recommended raising flop, but as a default call is fine.

You say he has a small sample, so it's hard to discern with any credibility what his donk means on the flop, but it could be a small pair "seeing" if you have AK or a miss, Q-J or 6-6 looking to play a big pot (with his half pot lead and with no history of you raising donks I dont think I'd label this) a straightdraw (AK himself, which would be v odd, KT, T9, AT) absolute air (78, 45, A8, etc.) or a weak marginal hand that has some outs (67, JT, etc.)

basically, his hand range isnt defined, except for the fact he's 20 vpip over a small sample and called a steal raise oop. The natural tendency is to weight his hand range to bottom pairs, and lucky for you, this board only hit one of them.

So, on the flop, in an odd way a call is close to a slowplay, although I'm sure thats not the reasoning you had for calling there. Also, I'd think my hand is best ~85% of the time, and on average when ahead my opponent probably has ~18% equity.

Without going into TOO much detail about things from my book, but I'd label this a type 2 flop from my book. Basically, when the flop has 2 broadways, always assume* that the flop has hit your opponent atleast somewhat when they show interest (c/r or lead).

Anyway, I'd say pf and flop are fairly standard, although a case could be made for a pure value raise (2/3 pot raise in that spot) w/ a plan of felting sometime later, and the caveat there is if villain would donk say KQ QT Q9 etc. (bc if they donk them, they're not laying down)

On the turn I really would not want to see a king, since that would hit AT/KQ/KJ/T9, all realistic hands of villain and flip the tables to where we have limited equity. (although we would pick up a nut gutter) any blank (7 through 2) is fine, and picking up another spade would be lovely (in the rare event we do face a set). A queen would be nice but really not needed; we think we're ahead so often, and a queen wouldnt change much simply bc AA/KK and J6 (the hands we'd improve against) rate to make up maybe 1 or 2% of villains donk.

ANYWAY, small blind stays in the lead and bets a tiny bit under 2/3 pot on the jack. It would be weird for air to continue on this card, since your flop call seems alot like a weakish queen, some marginal Jx (maybe AJ, KJ, JT, etc.) a flop float (although quite rare for a PFR to float in a pot they've built, if a PFR misses i normally expect a raise/fold) or they put YOU on the straightdraw. It's also possible you slowplayed a huge hand (a set) on the flop, and of the two of you, you're the only one who really could have JJ or QQ here. So, the jack generally improves your hand, aside from the rare float or gutshot/oesd which did not take an aggressive lien on the flop. this all assumes villain is somewhat thinking.

This is probably the easiest spot in the hand, because if villain improved to trips you're never making him fold, and if you make a strong move here, there just arent many semibluffs or bluffs he could put you on, so I dont see too many worse hands going broke (AQ split will, KQ maybe, QT and worse due to 20 vpip rate to not be in villains hand range) so this has now become a wa/wb spot. You do pickup more equity vs 66, too, which is nice.

On the river, suddenly villain jumps his betsize to almost pot, and i wish you didnt show that you folded. You need to be good around 30% of the time, and, well, are you? At this point villain could maybe play AQ/KQ like this, although I kinda expect a river check. T9 is also possible, but that beats you now. Villain prolly doesnt expect you to call w/ any of those on the turn, so it's unlikely that card hit you - no way you have 88. However, your hand really looks like what you have (I'd actually rate AQ towards the stronger end of your spectrum, i'd put you on a weaker queen then that most of the time, unless YOUR stats are nitty, then i'd put you on a scared KK/AA and i'd probably have a full house by now! =) )

So what do you really beat? KQ, KT, AT, or a triple barrel air bluff from an underpair/low SCs. Is this enough to call? Well, I probably would, way it was played. I think there is enough thin area of villain having an overplayed slightly worse made hand or split, and there just arent enough slightly better hands at this point that play that fast (ala AA/KK).

I think the decision is tougher with a weak queen, largely because the 8 changes little aside from T9 filling in, so when you call the turn in general you should be calling this river. Why is that? I hate expressing this, but calling one street then folding the next when nothing changes is very exploitable, and in general, you should avoid doing that - if you think your hand is good on the turn, know that you may face a river bet of this size. Of course, the actual bet sizing COULD dissuade you from playing on, if you get a read that says "this bet means monster." You have a limited sample size with villain, and no such note, so I'd pay off and learn what his line means =)

Thanks for doing this, Bobbo.
What are the 5 most important things uNL'ers and SSNL'ers need to master to move up? And, can you elaborate a bit on each, if you don't mind?



Hmm. interesting question. Maybe bc its really tough to master things, but perhaps be able to handle fluidly is a good requirement -
1. Hand reading, hand reading, hand reading - The best players are those who can deduce with a fair degree of certainty what villain's line is REPRESENTING. It's not as important as what they have, but it's more important to know what the villains is showing they have. The best hand reader I know is fslexcduck, though. Both online and live it's pretty uncanny.
2. Confidence. Poker, when boiled down, is about trusting your decisions and not faulting yourself when the cards dont fall right. If you get down on yourself, often your game will fall apart. If you lose your confidence, how can you play your "A" game? I know I cant.
3. THE MATH!!! So many good players (even at high stakes) dont have equity decisions down pat. This is where I believe I am strongest, and also where limit players hold a small edge over NLH born and bred. This involves basic turn decisions w/ a draw, and moves onto more advanced math like quicktime hand range sims.
4. Tilt control. For a long, long time I was a tilt monkey. What tilted me? Not bad beats, but rather situations in which opponent played sub optimally and then managed to win, and even in winning, did not get the max. When i lose a pot to KK v AA or something, that never tilts me. who cares about that? It's supposed to happen. When I lose a pot AA to 67o aipf, though, that's not supposed to happen! Well, the fact 67o beat AA, thats fine, but getting 7high in the pot pf, ugh! Those things bother me. Being able to deal w/ and control this is crucial.
5. Hmm, running out of steam here. I feel strongly about the first 4, so whatever I insert here is not nearly as important as those first qualities/ideas. But I guess we can slip discipline in.

Co raises to 4BB its folded to you in the BB. What is your calling range, what is your raising range?
How does this change if you're in the SB?


CO's numbers mean something, here. Also, lets assume we're 100bb, because the shallower we are, well, that narrows things too.

The first q to answer is: My range in the SB is very close to that of the BB, except if I know BB is a big squeezer. If they are, I'm less apt to cold call marginal hands in the SB and alot more apt to cold call a monster (AK, QQ, KK, AA) in the hopes of getting that squeeze. But lets assume BB if I'm SB is irrelevant.

In that case I'm cold calling 88-22, A5s-A2s. With some frequency JJ-99, AKs-ATs. Depending on stats, possibly AKo/AQo.
I'm 3betting AA-QQ, and with some frequency JJ-99, AKs-ATs, AKo/AQo. I'm also throwing in a fair amount of KQs-54s repops, as well as KJs-64s, and A9s-A6s, AJo/ATo. However, none of the 3bet spots with less then premiums are w/ 100%, but they are more then 0%, if that makes sense.
If I had to estimate, the nonfelt to felt ratio is roughly 3:1. I'm always felting AA-QQ/Ak, and depending on opponent I may find myself aipf with JJ-99/Aq.

If SB cold calls, in the BB my repopping range gets much bigger - I will squeeze here alot. Literally it's possible I could repop any two cards - the other day I squeezed 32o, (and took it down, PHEW) so what I have is irrelevant. I would add though possibly a few more "safe" calls ending the action w/ a 3way pot and relative position on the pfr. (Such as A9s-A6s, maybe a 1gapper SC if I didnt squeeze it)

In your opinion what skill is more important (Explanations would be oh so nice):
The ability to play different hands the same?
or
The ability to play the same hand differently?


well, people play different hands the same all the time without realizing it all the time. I wouldnt call this a skill, just a coincidence. (For example, you raise XX otb, then you cbet a flop, then you 2nd barrel the turn. Dont you have alot of hands you would do this with?)
Also, a hand should be played much differently depending on the board and opponent; saying, 'well, when i have aces, i bet every street,' isnt all that helpful.

So... Im not sure if I can give you an answer, but maybe the best skill is being able to play the same hand according to what is best in that situation. (A cop out!)

did you always play a 31/26(or whatever, up there anyway) style, or did you start off TAG and slowly switched to LAG? Or what?

good question. When I first started playing full ring online I was somewhat nitty. (I was never a set miner, but think 15vpip/6 pfr, which is on the line between tag and nit). I think when I first started playing shorthanded though, I was a maniac. On party lots of weird things would work, so I did what felt right. I think I gradually tightened up a bit shorthanded (removing alot of cold calling aspects from my game) and loosened up fullhanded (added alot of hands which I like to isolate early position players with).

I didnt realize then the fundamental impact of how many people sitting at a table has on how you should approach your PF game. I feel now I have a much stronger grasp on what appropriate changes are.

a hand i just played vs a 33/11/2 villain, no real reads
effective stacks are $400 at 2/4

hand: K Q

preflop:
folded to me in CO, hero raises to $16, button folds, sb calls, bb calls

flop: K 8 4
check, check, hero bets $34, sb folds, bb calls

turn: 9
check, hero bets $82, bb calls

river: 9
check, hero shoves

am i taking 'merging your ranges' too far? obv i'm repping a busted FD


Tufat, I hope villain doesnt have 9d. =) This looks really good. You're not repping a busted FD, you're repping with some frequency a 3barrel air or busted FD, but also KQ+. I think if villain has an odd king and called down this far, why wont he continue calling?

The river shove is 280 pot and 268 behind, looks great.

would i look insane if i shoved a rived 2 too?

I think so

Bobbo, couple questions:
1) I've tried to loosen up my game a number of times but I can't seem to get much higher than 20/15 especially when multitabling. Should I just stick with TAG play if that is what I am used to and most comfortable with? I guess if I really wanted to play LAG I could cut down the number of tables and create preflop charts that would exactly match what hands I want to play in what positions.


Play what works for you. If you really want to try a new style, without a doubt cut down on on tables.

2) I had a online bankroll of 18k (a lot of profit in bank though) recently which dropped to 12k from playing mostly 2/4 and 3/6. Then I've lost another 2k playing 1/2 over the past 30,000 hands. Despite this I'm still up on these games a decent amount over the long run. With 10k should I continue playing 1/2 or just keep playing 2/4? If I do continue to play 2/4 at what point would I have to drop down to play 1/2 only assuming I'm avoiding going broke. I've been on downswings before but never this long or this bad... down in both february and march.

I advocate very different BR requirements then others. I think 10k is plenty for 2/4. If you lose more then 8 buyins though, I'd drop back, and probably stay at 1/2 for a long while.
I'm hoping for your sake April goes much bette! =)

3) During this really bad downswing I qualified for the main event of the WSOP. What would you do to prepare for it besides playing MTTs? Also, I feel kind of stupid that I'm still playing 1/2 and in the main event... like I should be playing higher like I used to just because I'm playing in a 10k tourney. It's a hurt on my psyche that I'm playing 1/2 after all this time despite putting in countless hours to study and move up.

Hmm, it would be trite of me to just say "dont feel bad you play the stakes you play." But that's the truth; what stakes you play in now way is indicative of your level of skill. Well, not completely true, it's somewhat indicative, but what I mean to say is playing 1/2 does not preclude you from being an incredibly good player. I'll see you at the main event this year, also =)

I dont think you need to do all that much extra work to prepare for the main event - what I know of the structure is its quite slow and filled with donkeys, so it will function like a typical live low stakes cash game for day 1. (yay) One thing STT players have as a huge advantage in general though is very good push/fold EV knowledge, which comes in handy in MTTs.

Hopefully these answered your inquiries!

What do you think of this?
Standard? SB is your typical 30/10 recreational player.

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Hold'em Cash Game
$1/$2 Blinds
6 Players
Lego Poker Hand Converter

Stack Sizes
SB: $204
BB: $200.75
UTG: $334.60
MP: $249.75
CO: $221.45
Hero (BTN): $197

Preflop: T J ($3, 6 Players)
UTG folds, MP raises to $7, CO folds, Hero calls $7, SB calls $6, BB folds

Flop: 9 4 8 ($23, 3 Players)
SB checks, MP checks, Hero bets $17, SB raises to $47, MP folds, Hero raises all-in to $190


Hmm. very interesting hand, for a ton of reasons. I hope if you posted this, it generated good discussion, because it deals with: Calling pf w/ SC in pos (1) dealing with a decent draw in a 3way raised pot (2) facing a c/r from a non pfr when they check, which is worrisome (3)

Here's my take:

Preflop I sometimes call here, sometimes fold, and sometimes 3bet. Kinda a cop out, but all 3 can be defended, and depending on villain, can all be right.

On the flop, this is what you should be thinking of: I have an aggressive draw (2 overs, nut OESD, bdflush, but also on a 2tone board) in a raised pot (12 bb in there). effective stack is your stack, 190, or 8x the pot.

First question: If preflop raiser cbets, what is your standard play? interestingly, the play is to call. If you raise you must call a push, and your draw isnt big enough so that you care if you put the last bet in or not. you need to be able to put the last bet in to work it effectively (winning a mid sized pot w/o showdown)

However, pfr does not bet, so the next question is, should I bet here? A freecard doesnt hurt, and it looks like if the PFR had anything (overpair, draw, even ace high may cbet!) he would've bet. So, I'd discount him. The sb's range is 30/10, which is pretty wide here, and does NOT mean his range is weighted towards small pairs/etc. So, alot of his hands (Ax, broadways) also missed.

So i'd bet 3/4 pot with a fairly wide range of hands here, (~20, I do like your bet here) and obv fold alot of the stuff to a sb c/r.

However, this time, you have a solid hand that has a ton of equity vs most hands. So the next question is should you push (he'd be calling ~145 to win 410, or he'd need 35% equity) and you'd be laying 173 to pick up 87, and when called roughly (this is the fun part, how much equity do you think you have when called? Never more then 40%, although in bizzaro world you could technically have the best hand vs 67spades or something... but id lean to ~30% in general. real good time for a pokerstove sim)

anyway, if always called, this is not a great move. So, would a sb who prolly planend to c/r the pfr (and trap you in the middle, if he was thinking) ever fold to this push? Unfortunately if he c/r a draw (spades that could have yuo high carded) and the such is now priced in, so you cant make draws fold. I think that fold equity is very diminished; but, getting the immediate price of 30:117, with position and stacks left drawing to the nuts, calling becomes very nice.

So, I wont leave you with an exact answer, but rather a few questions:
1. How often do you think he folds to the c/r? (continued) How often does he need to fold to make this +EV?
2. What hand range are you putting him on, given he called pf oop, is somewhat loose passive, then went for a checkraise in a 3way raised pot?
3. If you do call, what should your plans be on different cards?

I will say, in a nutshell, this hand looks solid, but may not be optimal. (Meaning, calling may be better )
Also, if we did NOT have position, the decision would be more like push or fold, rather then push or call. Why do you think this is?

Hey Bobbo,
I like most of your posts, but it seems like in general you don't like to fold. True?


Very true. Funny response: You can't win if you fold. Real response: Often people underestimate their actual equity and what equity is required for a call to be right. Furthermore, especially in more aggressive games, people need to understand that sending a message (YOU NEVER HAVE FOLDING EQUITY VS ME) is really tough to play against. If you've forced a player to only go all in with the best hand, they become pretty easy to play.

How large do you 3 bet in position and OOP for both a 3.5xbb raise and a 4xbb raise?

Generally, assuming no other limps and/or weird stack sizing, I'll 3bet IP 3x the amount and OOP 4x. So, to a 3.5 bb it would be 10.5 IP, 14 OOP. to a 4 bb, it would be 12 IP and 16 OOP.

How big are your continuation bets in relation to the pot size? A percentage would be great.

I will bet anywhere from just under half the pot to just over the full pot. Sometimes you will catch me 3bet shoving for 2x the pot or so, but that is rare. Sometimes I will make a 1 to 2x pot bet on the turn, but that is for different reasons.

How often do you check behind after raising preflop? Examples?

According to PT (just checked) it's 70bet/18check. (the other options deal with raise/fold/call, which is irrelevant to this question) So it's roughly a 4:1 bet/check ratio. thats what I would've guessed, too. I gave examples earlier in the well.

Do you continuation bet into two-three players often?

Yes

How often do you second barrell? Examples?

yes.. the obvious times are things like someone calls comes T 4 2r, turn is a Q. the check call on the flop, the queen is irrelevant to them, but often helps me. That should be a super standard 2nd bet.
A bad spot to double barrel is ace high boards, especially rainbow ones. Typically people check call these and immediately you should label them for a weak ace. Sometimes a set, too, looking to c/r the turn. Just about never a gutshot or OOP float. It's typically a bad idea to 2nd barrel into at worst marginal made hands, so I play v soft on those boards. likewise, I play TPTK type hands VERY hard there, which is counterintuitive. Mainly, because I feel those Axlittle and mid pairs dont fold and want to showdown so hard.

Answer true or false to the following statements, and if you feel it nessecary explain your answers.
1. The better you are postflop the more hands you should tend to play.


True

2. Metagame is important.

False

3. Bluffing is important.

True and False.

Thanks for doing this. What kind of winrate do you think a good player should sustain in today's games at nl 100,nl 200.nl 400...

I think double digits is possible but tough at all those limits. Obviously, the higher you go, the lower a "best" winrate will be.

Quote:

a hand i just played vs a 33/11/2 villain, no real reads
effective stacks are $400 at 2/4
hand: K Q

preflop:
folded to me in CO, hero raises to $16, button folds, sb calls, bb calls

flop: K 8 4
check, check, hero bets $34, sb folds, bb calls


turn: 9
check, hero bets $82, bb calls

river: 9
check, hero shoves
am i taking 'merging your ranges' too far? obv i'm repping a busted FD




As I understand the situation, Tufat is a new student of yours. And you two are talking about 'merging his ranges' which I assume to mean 'balancing your plays' so your bluffs look like value bets and vice versa.
How important do you feel it is to 'balance your play' so Villains can't get a good read on your play? At what level does this become significant? Do you feel that at lower levels a more exploitive system could be implemented without the Hero balancing his play that would be higher +EV than balancing his play?
in other words, merging your hand ranges is optimal in a game theory tunnel but do you feel that this is the highest +EV play as well in most games. Or do you think you could earn a higher EV playing an exploitive game?


Merging ranges: This is more AEjones big thing. Yes, Tufat is a new student, but we havent even discussed postflop play yet. (LOL!)
Here, balancing your play isnt as important as just making an isolated +EV play. And, on this board, given the action, I think there is lots of value in a shove, since villain likely doesnt have tufat trapped, unless (and I wasnt kidding) he made runner runner 9s. (which is def. possible)
The worse tufat's kicker, the more likely he's going to run into a better king checkcalling, and more this would be a check behind. Ala tufat making this move with KJ would be thin but prolly still +EV, with KT would be reckless and probably not +EV.
About the whole exploitable/balancing stuff, once again, hero's play is +EV bc i think villain has a king check calling alot, and hero beats alot of kings. it's really that simple. sure, hero should be shoving everything better then KQ here, too. is this a good bluff spot? no. Against an isolated villain I'd probably bluff here 0% of the time and value shove


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Tickner
A game of inches...


Reged: 03/01/06
Posts: 3554
Re: The Well: BobboFitos (Summary 05/04/07) [Re: bubaloo]
      #13155253 - 11/28/07 01:43 PM

This is awesome, thx a lot.

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SirFelixCat
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Re: The Well: BobboFitos (Summary 05/04/07) [Re: Tickner]
      #13155409 - 11/28/07 01:54 PM

You rock, bro.

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willw9
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Re: The Well: BobboFitos (Summary 05/04/07) [Re: SirFelixCat]
      #13155436 - 11/28/07 01:57 PM

Give bubaloo a nice title please.

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bubaloo
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Reged: 03/09/07
Posts: 1369
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Re: The Well: BobboFitos (Summary 05/04/07) [Re: willw9]
      #13155457 - 11/28/07 01:58 PM

theres more....

Quote:

I think too many people check the turn way too frequently, and people are missing alot of value.



Could you give some examples where SSNL/uNlers check behind where betting is usually superior.

This is tough, because I may throw out a hand that people are not checking. But the general idea is top pair on most boards where you bet the flop and are in the lead... bet the turn. People FAR too often worry about being c/rai, and: 1. often the decision is easy (villain sucks and has a set, fold) 2. people so infrequently c/r the turn.

Or what factors do you consider on the turn?

The opponent, the board, my hand, what I think villain has. :X

(I see you briefly mentioned there's there's a part in your book on this)
I'm looking into getting some coaching in the near future -as I think I have some major leaks that I'm not aware of that have crept in and missing some basics.
Do you reckon it's has some value for us uNL/SSNL halfies having some coaching or should we just use 2p2/books/play?


I think coaching is great - I was coached by 2 different players, and I think both made me into a more complete player. The better question is it worth the cost to you - This all depends on how much you play. 2p2, by FAR, is the best resource period. without being too elitist, it simply makes bad players good and good players great. Id recommend trying to generate your own strategies (with the aid of 2p2) and play X hands, and see where you are. Then make the decision whether or not to hire someone.

why check this turn ---> A8o raised CO, 8s 7s 6h

I think you're asking why I check the flop there - and there are a million reasons. This may surprise you, but I'd also check KK, T7, 34h, and KJo there. I sometimes would check A4s. I would never check A6, K7h, T9, 77, or J9s.

I respect your posts and have heard great things about your coaching.
Basically, I'm just wondering why you havent made more money, been more successful at poker. Not trying to be rude, just trying to figure out how someone with such grasp of the game hasnt been able to turn knowledge into more money. Is it tilt, boredom, and do you think you'll get to big games in future?


haha, nice q.
1. I have made nice money. I was going to say "I have made X more then this person and that person etc" but thats de classe and not me. but, I am 21, have been able to buy a new car, buy lots of fun stuff (including expensive computer stuff), buy nice gifts to people, etc. Obviously I wish I played more when poker WAS softer and made more then, but it's a minor regret.
2. Also, discipline is a huge factor. I'm shocked at some people on 2p2 who log insane amount of hands - I have alot of respect for their devotion. (like punter, HEK, snowbank, etc.) I played 30k hands last month which is the most I've played in a long, long time. The reason I dont play as much is... I'm not nearly as good at multitabling as those guys. (6max I play 4 or 5 tables, the past ~2 weeks I've been 9 tabling full ring tho, as a mini experiment). Also, I do (most of the time!) go to classes.
3. Will I ever play in games as high as durr, aba, etc? No way. This summer while in Vegas I plan on playing 10-20 everyday, which should be fun. If I play higher then that I dont think i'd be comfortable, since Ive never played higher then that.

Bobbo, great thread, thanks for posting.
What kind of things do you look at when studying through poker tracker? just reviewing tough hands you played and calculating equity street by street? Do you study regulars in your game and their stats to look for leaks?


Ok, great Q, because I advocate self analysis so much. First thing to do is filter PT for HU, 3 way, 4 way, etc. Alot of times stats are misleading; if you play 6max, but have a ton of HU hands, all your stats will be skewed to looser/more aggressive then you may be.
Another fun thing to do is check all the times you checkraise, just for an idea of what situations are you c/r; if they're not getting called, and it's always with a set, consider checkraising more hands. i love filtering and seeing my c/r, bc...
On the flop 6handed they tend to be mostly sets. (or 2pair)
On the turn 6handed they tend to be mostly draws or stackadonk. (big pairs)
On the river 6handed they tend to be mostly bluffs.

Who knows why =)

Another thing to check is your VPIP put in as a PFR, then won and lost hands that WENT to showdown. check out hands your'e playing when you're going to showdown and winnign: coudl you have gotten a turn bet in? could yuo have value bet more on the river? Likewise, the pots that were lost, ask yourself: Shoudl I have paid off that river? What did I think he had on the turn/etc?

Working back over that (and seeing results in your face) help mesh things together

How can I grow the balls to move up and make more serious money when I'm so relaxed and calm beating the 100 and 200 games for good money? A few $1k flips? $5k shot at 5/10 or 3/6 or something? It's sick how little I care about what is going on sometimes when the money seems of such little importance, yet when I consider moving up and dealing w/ $4k swings it makes me [censored] my pants.

I would advise heavily against flips. A few 2p2 friends who will remain nameless have nearly gone busto by stupid flipping. To me, when so many ppl hate variance, why do these ~0EV flips?

Move up tho when you're ready. If you're not ready, dont force yourself.

Quote:

Quote:

Co raises to 4BB its folded to you in the BB. What is your calling range, what is your raising range?
How does this change if you're in the SB?





In that case I'm cold calling 88-22, A5s-A2s.



most ppl i think would argue that calling w/ weak suited aces in the blinds is unprofitable for a lot of ppl in most situations. plz explain why this is in general a profitable play.

Ok, it starts like this -
I have a suited ace,
villain opens the pot,
I cold call out of position,
Flop contains XXX,
I check,
He bets,
I raise!
He folds!
I win the pot,

Or,...
He 3bets!
I fold!

Typically tho i exude fewer emotes online while playing, in an effort to not betray my poker face.

Quote:

Quote:

Thanks, good read. What do you think of this?
Standard? SB is your typical 30/10 recreational player.
Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Hold'em Cash Game
$1/$2 Blinds
6 Players
Lego Poker Hand Converter

Stack Sizes
SB: $204
BB: $200.75
UTG: $334.60
MP: $249.75
CO: $221.45
Hero (BTN): $197

Preflop: T J ($3, 6 Players)
UTG folds, MP raises to $7, CO folds, Hero calls $7, SB calls $6, BB folds

Flop: 9 4 8 ($23, 3 Players)
SB checks, MP checks, Hero bets $17, SB raises to $47, MP folds, Hero raises all-in to $190





Hmm. very interesting hand, for a ton of reasons. I hope if you posted this, it generated good discussion, because it deals with: Calling pf w/ SC in pos (1) dealing with a decent draw in a 3way raised pot (2) facing a c/r from a non pfr when they check, which is worrisome (3)

Here's my take:
Preflop I sometimes call here, sometimes fold, and sometimes 3bet. Kinda a cop out, but all 3 can be defended, and depending on villain, can all be right.
On the flop, this is what you should be thinking of: I have an aggressive draw (2 overs, nut OESD, bdflush, but also on a 2tone board) in a raised pot (12 bb in there). effective stack is your stack, 190, or 8x the pot.

First question: If preflop raiser cbets, what is your standard play? interestingly, the play is to call. If you raise you must call a push, and your draw isnt big enough so that you care if you put the last bet in or not. you need to be able to put the last bet in to work it effectively (winning a mid sized pot w/o showdown)

However, pfr does not bet, so the next question is, should I bet here? A freecard doesnt hurt, and it looks like if the PFR had anything (overpair, draw, even ace high may cbet!) he would've bet. So, I'd discount him. The sb's range is 30/10, which is pretty wide here, and does NOT mean his range is weighted towards small pairs/etc. So, alot of his hands (Ax, broadways) also missed.

So i'd bet 3/4 pot with a fairly wide range of hands here, (~20, I do like your bet here) and obv fold alot of the stuff to a sb c/r.

However, this time, you have a solid hand that has a ton of equity vs most hands. So the next question is should you push (he'd be calling ~145 to win 410, or he'd need 35% equity) and you'd be laying 173 to pick up 87, and when called roughly (this is the fun part, how much equity do you think you have when called? Never more then 40%, although in bizzaro world you could technically have the best hand vs 67spades or something... but id lean to ~30% in general. real good time for a pokerstove sim)

anyway, if always called, this is not a great move. So, would a sb who prolly planend to c/r the pfr (and trap you in the middle, if he was thinking) ever fold to this push? Unfortunately if he c/r a draw (spades that could have yuo high carded) and the such is now priced in, so you cant make draws fold. I think that fold equity is very diminished; but, getting the immediate price of 30:117, with position and stacks left drawing to the nuts, calling becomes very nice.

So, I wont leave you with an exact answer, but rather a few questions:
1. How often do you think he folds to the c/r? (continued) How often does he need to fold to make this +EV?
2. What hand range are you putting him on, given he called pf oop, is somewhat loose passive, then went for a checkraise in a 3way raised pot?
3. If you do call, what should your plans be on different cards?

I will say, in a nutshell, this hand looks solid, but may not be optimal. (Meaning, calling may be better )
Also, if we did NOT have position, the decision would be more like push or fold, rather then push or call. Why do you think this is?



Thanks for the detailed response. Here is a basic sim of his c/r + calling range imo. Anything you think I should add?
Text results appended to pokerstove.txt
13,860 games 0.005 secs 2,772,000 games/sec
Board: 9s 4s 8c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 33.470% 33.47% 00.00% 4639 0.00 { JcTc }
Hand 1: 66.530% 66.53% 00.00% 9221 0.00 { 99-88, 44, A9s, 98s }

As for your questions:
1. After thinking about this hand some more, I think he folds maybe 10% of the hands he's c/ring with, so w/o doing the math (which I need help with in determining how often he needs to fold to make a push EV), the push looks pretty bad.
2. See stove sim, and add in some things like T9s/J9s. I think these types of players are far more likely to c/r TP than they are draws. I think he rarely c/r's a draw here.
3. Got any specific turn cards in mind? In general, I think I've gotta push over a turn bet if I hit any of my 8 straight outs. I also don't think any of my straight outs are dirty, since I think he rarely c/r's a FD on the flop. I guess I gotta consider my pair outs to be semi-dirty and proceed with caution to a big turn bet. If he's c/ring the flop with A9, I don't think he's firing a J/T turn. What do you think?
If we are OOP, it becomes more push/fold since it's harder to get paid when we hit, get a free river card less often, and he's raising a slightly bigger range when he's in position.

How'd I do?


First, you did well. Congrats =)

re: his c/r-> call range, I think it's a tiny bit wider, he's not a tag, he's looser and not aggro pf. (example, I wouldnt be shocked for him to have TT) its hard to discern if he takes this line with ALL these hands, but something like this is realistic - I've added a bunch of combo draws which still account a small % given just 1 combo of each. I added a few more TP combos, and not to overweight them, just included suited variety so its not too many combos. I didnt include any random air, like 22 or AK, bc c/r-> call would be so weird and really not happening.

Board: 9s 4s 8c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 37.219% 33.59% 03.63% 12305 1328.50 { JcTc }
Hand 1: 62.781% 59.15% 03.63% 21668 1328.50 { TT-88, 44, A9s, As8s, As7s, As6s, As5s, As3s, As2s, QsTs, Q9s, J9s+, T9s, Ts8s, 98s, 8s7s, 7s6s }

Anyway, our range differs by ~4%, which is actually in a 200bb pot fairly substantial. All additional equity matters. In fact, the taggier the opponent, the fewer TP combos and the closer to your range it becomes, but still roughly ~34% or so.

So, lets answer #1: I think 10% is fair assessment. he's taken a strong line, which removes air alot, and (JUST BASED ON PF STATS ALONE WHICH OFTEN IS NOT FAIR TO DO) seems like he will stack here with one pair. Also, the draws are committed, so it's not like he can c/r semibluff then opt to fold in this big pot now.
Lets continue onto #2, before answering the second half of #1 - I think its possible (in the 10 to 12% of c/r-> fold) he c/r misclicks, a VERY weak draw (like Qto) or something like 55. Those are reasonable bluff type hands that then fold. The poker stove hand range above demonstrate some other possibilities, although w/o having extensive knowledge of said player, we cant narrow his holdings to any degree of frequency.

So, back to #1; he folds 10 to 12%, and when called, we have 37% equity.
When he folds, we win 87$. That is 1 in 8. (+10.8)
When called, we have 37% equity of 410, or ~152$. We're also putting in 173$, which means 7 out of 8 this is net -21$. (-18.3)
So, we win 10.8 and lose 18.3, so interestingly, unless he folds more often, or we have slightly more equity, this is a -EV play. (-7.5$ or roughly 4bb)
One note - this is a case where if you played with someone alot, you could sacrifice EV (here, ~7.5$, which is 4bb, which is substantial) in effort to "balance" your sets, so that villain DOES c/r->stack off 1pair. (bc when you have the set or two pair, villain has v v low equity and you make a huge leap) but against an unknown and most regulars this is irrelevant.

For this to be +EV, villain needs to fold closer to 20% of the time (+87 2 in 10, +17.4 vs -21 8 in 10, -16.8) which produces a near break even result. Anything greater then that, and the play starts to look very nice.

3. turn plans? Well, if you jsut call, 117 in the pot with 141 behind. if you checks, id really want to shove, because THERE he would fold a draw priced out and maybe top pair or whatever fearing he's being trapped. this happens v rarely. i may check there too. not worth considering. if he bets... (less then all in or all in) if i hit a 6 outer im def all in. the tough spots are if a club hits (we improve, there if he pushes bam we cant really call unless J or T are live too, but i would LOVE to gamble there) if a spade hits (including our straight outs, we could be dead) or if a J/T hit. Anyway, if i suspect there is any FE when they lead the turn, i may shove a club/J/T, otherwise id just call on those priced in.

How did that hand work out? Would be awesome if villain folded, but based on your pokerstove range, im guessing you ran into a big hand and didnt suck out.

about OOP: You nailed it. In position we def. have implied odds esp. if he has a set or 2pair or whatever and sometimes can steal the pot or take a freebie. oop this is not the case, and although the odds offered are good, they're not good enough.

Might be a tough question but what % of SSNLers do you think have what it takes to be succesful at MSNL?
Also tips for moving from 1/2 to 2/4?


1. Almost all of them, provided they work at it and have the discpline factor.
2. It's the same game, just twice the money.

lol, and you refrain from calling w/ A6s-A9s b/c they can't make cool straights as easily and if you hit a 9 it's unfortunately unfoldable regardless of opponents action?

well, no. the straight value helps, lower trips are more disguised (and more small overpairs stack off there) and its alot easier to fold top pair w/ a 5 then as an 8.

Thanks for doing this well man, lots of really good stuff in here..
1) I have a hard time dealing with minraises. They tend to set me on instatilt and I feel like I just end up playing the rest of the hand feeling lost.. What would your plan be for the rest of this hand:
(btw villain is 70/6 over just 35 hands)

Poker Room skin
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $1/$2
5 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $94.00
CO: $58.80
Button: $562.60
Hero: $200.00
BB: $166.80

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is SB with T T
3 folds, Hero raises to $7, BB calls.

Flop: 3 4 2 ($14, 2 players)
Hero bets $10, BB raises to $20, Hero ??


Against a normal villain, I may check this flop. Actually, it would be my default play. This dude with 70 vpip for him any pair is the nuts and I 3bet and play for stacks, it's BvB. (make it 65, call push)

2) If you raise an EP fish from MP with AJo, a loose passive fish calls me in the CO or OTB, are you cbetting a 552 flop? I feel like I never get a fold in this spot but OTOH I feel like checking is really weak.

100% definitely.

6 max game. 100 BB effective stacks. you're in the CO playing your standard game. A player UTG raises to 4BB. Its folded to you and you pop it to 15BB. Its folded to UTG. UTG calls your raise.
Assume reads are minimum and all you have is stats collected over 100 hands or so. Put the following villains on a range.
1)19/15/2
2)32/20/2
3)40/10/1.5
4)14/10/4
5)27/23/3


1. AA-99, AK/AQ.
2. This could go alot of ways. If he's tough his range is whatever he opened UTG, which is still wide. This is both a positive and negative for me, depending on what I 3bet with!
3. 40/10 opens tight utg but probably calls all the reraises due to seeing flop mentality. something like 99+, ATo+, ATs+, KQs.
4. This is very nitty pf, if a guy like this opens pf and calls (unless i think he 4bets AA/KK) its an ultra premium, with AK or JJ being the worst. If I 3bet him though I probably have the same range though.
5. Similar to #2. Probably a tougher opponent bc slightly more aggro and a little less spewy, a big on the laggro side. These guys can give trouble bc their hand ranges are wider.

for the most part its all irrelevant until they c/r me all in or lead into me on the flop, only then do i need to assign hand range =p

Can you go over nl 6 max situations where youd ever open limp (if ever) or limp behind (you can keep it generic and buy in specific if desired)

Ok, good q. Open limp, 6 max, never. Full ring, I open limp from EP AA/KK from time to time to lrr, and often small PPs that I dont want to raise with. (obv call a raise) sometimes ill limp AT type stuff (KQ too) but generally ill fold to a raise. I've l/rr with some of those, too, but normally when I think there is weakness.
Over limp... I love overlimping in both spots. There are some very good overlimping spots, and without too much detail, AXs, suited broadways, and offsuit broadways I think should be overlimped and not raise/fold.

do you prefer playing live or online?

if im feeling sick, online. other wise, live.

Bobbo,

can you quickly commment on this hand? (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=9863755&an=0&page=0#Post9863755)
I think there is a fundamental concept I am missing in this situation (and so many situations like it) where I am just completely lost. No matter what I do in these situations i feel i did something wrong.
thx



sure, the hand in brief again:

Stack Sizes
SB: $105.25
BB: $97.50
Hero (UTG): $228.15
CO: $100
BTN: $99.50

Preflop: J J ($1.50, 5 Players)
Hero raises to $4, CO raises to $12, 3 folds, Hero calls $8

Flop: 6 5 8 ($27, 2 Players)
Hero checks, CO bets $17, CO folds, hero goes all-in

flop has 2 spades, too*

There are a few ways to approach this hand. The first is knowing more about your opponent; if he's been 3betting alot, you're allowed to 4bet/call all in. if he hasnt been 3betting alot and hasnt been active whatsoever, you can set mine. Seems insanely weak but technically you can check fold the flop.

Without either of those two parameters (either heavy action or no action whatsoever) the standard is to call, and not necessarily release the flop, but approach it cautiously.

So now we make it to the flop in the standard fashion, and we have somewhat of a situation; an incredibly heavy board, a 27$ pot, and effective stacks of 88. (3.3 pot:stack)

For the most part w/ anything really strong or draw I'd checkraise all in here. If i c/r ai I prolly never have air, and at the minimum some sort of draw considering the board.

The problem really is... Jacks is just too strong in relative strength to release, without more info about villain. (somewhat nitty, I mean) Also, given the board and being OOP, its too tough to call 17 here, since that sets up 61 in the pot with 71 behind. So, if you call, what do you hope? it's checked down? with 2 streets to go, and even KQ/Ak/Aq having ~25%+ (depending on suits) equity in a sizable pot, (or if they have a weird hand like 67 or 89 etc, they have lots of equity) its just too tough to play. So, its a real push/fold spot.

The other option is to call and shove any turn, but I like your play here. If it makes you feel any better I'd probably do the same with 9s and Tens too, unless I have more opponent information, but for 100bb in a fairly aggro game (CO open / Btn repop situation) w. JJ as an OP its generally time to go busto.

I think you may have wanted better advice here, and I'm sorry I cant give it, but against some people you can check fold, but against most it's a check push.

bobbo,
I posted this in MSNL but I figured I'd post it here, too.

Villain is pretty much unknown, definitely not a regular though. He seems loose preflop but over a small sample. This is the first time I've 3 bet him, and I've been in line so far.

2/4 6 max, I have $405 and he covers.

LAG raises UTG+1 to $14, Villain calls next to act, I make it $60 from the SB with JJ, LAG folds and Villain calls.

Flop: 6 2 8 ($135)

I lead for $75, villain calls.

Turn: K ($285)

Hero?
I have $270 left on the turn.


check call up to all in, if he checks behind consider value pushing the river or check folding. if its a 4th heart as well, consider value pushing the river or check folding. if its a jack, consider value pushing the river or check calling.

That 8x7s6s flop that we're checking w/ KK and A8- why?? Seems like those hands are ahead there and we're missing a lot of value by checking because there are a lot of hands that can call us.
The concept is what i call "no equitable advantage," and happens ~somewhat frequently with marginal 1 pairs. AA is not a marginal 1 pair and often in a class of its own. 2pair is obviously not 1 pair.

Have you ever learned something from a student?

I learn all the time from students. Esp. ones that ask good questions.

You said you have some extraornidary ideas about bankroll requirements/management, care to elaborate?

I hope I never used the word extraordinary, because I dont think my ideas are too revolutionary or whatnot. But basically, if you dont rely on poker to feed yourself or whatnot (which is most people, esp. in SSNL) either bc you work or are a student, there is no shame is "blowing" your BR. if people depend on you, that is a different story. Any case, because of this, you should play whatever the highest limits you feel comfortable with: What I mean by that, is you evaluate a decision based on EV, not money. I also think various suggestions such as "move up with X buyins," is somewhat hogwash. You dont know what you can or cannot beat until you try!

Rank this skills:
a) Hand reading, b) betting ability, c) extracting value, d) Position e) hand strength f)bluffing g)studying (2+2, books, etc ) h) bankroll management


Alot of those things you say are one in the same. I initially always believed it was hand reading, but I see alot of people (clients, actually) who hand read VERY well but continue to play sub optimally IN SPITE of this. What I mean is they are able to formulate "more perfect information" then their opponents, but they don't utilize that information to result in the better action. I'm starting to think understanding how to utilize that information is more important then gathering it.

What board are you most likely to cbet OOP against an unknown holding AJo ( say someone limped from the CO, you raise to 5BB and he calls ) and why
a) K85r b) 5h6h10s c) JcQh10h


I'd bet all 3 unless I knew more about my opponent, I might check fold b, but I dont see myself doing that too often.

did you really have JJ that big pot we played together at turning stone? if you remember action, what do you think of my riv bet with KT on the xTh9hxAh board ?

Swear on my life I had JJ. I think your river bet was weird, and to be honest, I made an uncharacteristic move on the river. My thoughts at the time were "this is a good flop rawr I want to be all in" to "ok I think gabe will fire a 2nd barrel it's button vs blinds and we're not so deep that I need to protect my hand" to "oh [censored] an ace hit and he checked maybe he actually hit it and oh wow I do have a heart so the best play by a mile is to check and decide but mentally I'm callin a bet" to "oh he bet the river there is a chance he has SOMETHING and I think that something COULD be better then MY something" so I just shoved. (but you were getting a very good price)

I still can't decide if I like the push from a bluff standpoint... calling (my norm) is likely better, but you mucked instantly that I'm starting to think you really would've mucked an ace that quickly too, since how can it be a fold w/ a ten and a call with an ace, you know? Then again in the heat of battle sometimes peopel don't think like that, and truly an ace IS a call and a ten IS a fold, even though the smallest % of %s people are shoving JJ-KK as a bluff.

Are you still coaching?
Rates?
Would it be worth it for a 100nl player? (I mean, obviously the lesson would be worth it... but if I only have a 30bi roll, is it worth it then?)


Yes, I'm coaching, I coach more then I play I think. I charge 200$/session. Is it worth it? Well, on a 3k bankroll I hope you'd be playing alot, or else, no, it would not. But otherwise yes, it would.


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sh58
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Reged: 03/12/07
Posts: 1895
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Re: The Well: BobboFitos (Summary 05/04/07) [Re: bubaloo]
      #13170791 - 11/29/07 12:55 PM

bobbo is my new hero after watching his legopoker vid

thanks for doing all these well summary's, your hard work has not been in vain


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Double Eagle
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Reged: 12/29/03
Posts: 1330
Re: The Well: BobboFitos (Summary 05/04/07) [Re: sh58]
      #13177116 - 11/29/07 08:11 PM

Quote:

bobbo is my new hero after watching his legopoker vid






QFT

Bumped for awesomeness.


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Xanta
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Reged: 05/06/06
Posts: 1937
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Re: The Well: BobboFitos (Summary 05/04/07) [Re: Double Eagle]
      #13181086 - 11/30/07 01:06 AM

Holy [censored] I can't believe I missed this well, this is gold. I think I'm going to sign up for leggo now...

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