Terms & Conditions

Internet Magazine

Non–US new players
Get five 2+2 books

Order Books
Book Translations
Forum Login
Expand All   Collapse All

 Two Plus Two 
2+2 Magazine Forum
Special Sklansky Forum
2+2 Pokercast
About the Forums

 General Poker Discussion 
Beginners Questions
Books and Publications
Televised Poker
News, Views, and Gossip
Brick and Mortar
Home Poker
Beats, Brags, and Variance
Poker Theory
Poker Legislation


 German Forums 
Poker Allgemein
Strategie: Holdem NL cash
Strategie: Sonstige
Small Talk
German Poker News

 French Forums 
Forum francophone
BBV (French)

 Limit Texas Hold'em 
High Stakes Limit
Medium Stakes Limit
Small Stakes Limit
Micro Stakes Limit
Mid-High Short-handed
Small Stakes Shorthanded

 PL/NL Texas Hold'em 
High Stakes
Medium Stakes
Small Stakes
Micro Stakes
Small-High Full Ring
Micro Full Ring

 Tournament Poker 
Small Stakes MTT
High Stakes MTT
MTT Community
STT Strategy
Tournament Circuit

 Other Poker 
Omaha High
Heads Up Poker
Other Poker Games

 General Gambling 
Sports Betting
Other Gambling Games
Entertainment Betting

 Internet Gambling 
Internet Gambling
Internet Bonuses

 2+2 Communities 
Other Other Topics
The Lounge: Discussion+Review
El Diablo's General Discussion

 Other Topics 
Sporting Events
Business, Finance, and Investing
Science, Math, and Philosophy
Health and Fitness
Student Life
Puzzles and Other Games
Video Games
Laughs or Links!
Computer Technical Help
Sponsored Support Forums
Other Links
Order Books
Books by Others
Favorite Links
Advertising Information
Posting Hints
Privacy Notice
Forum Archives

The 2+2 Forums

Before using this Forum, please refer to the Terms and Conditions (Last modified: 2/26/2006)

Be sure to read the   Two Plus Two Internet Magazine

This is an archive. The main forums are here

These forums are read only.

UBB.threads™ Groupee, Inc.

General Poker Discussion >> Poker Beats, Brags, and Variance

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | >> (show all)
Carpal \'Tunnel

Reged: 07/06/06
Posts: 3983
We haven't won yet: latest (10/19) cliff's notes on AP scandal
      #12579229 - 10/19/07 08:20 PM

Cribbed from previous cliff's notes. Thanks to all. A lot of this is copy/pasted from Josem's last cliffnotes, so thanks Josem for those.

Short version: There is almost indisputable proof that users at AP were cheating by somehow viewing the whole cards of their opponents. Some information has come out that indicates an AP employee or ex-employee may have been involved. There is further evidence that it may be ex-owner, Scott Tom.

Long version:

---------- entire history since POTRIPPER tournament ----------

1) During a tournament played by cheater 'Potripper,' the person who ended up coming second ("Marco") thought he was cheated. He emailed Absolute, and they sent him a hand history file - an XLS file.

2) Marco opened up this file, it seemed all gibberish to him, and he didn't think anything of it.

3) First Absolute Poker scandal blow up - PT screenshots, etc. Graphical representation here: http://www.absolutepokercheats.com/vpipvbb.jpg

4) Fortnight passes

5) In passing discussion, Marco mentions he has this file. He shares it with a few people, including N 80 50 24(pokerdb.com maintainer, maker of The Poker Film, part owner of Bluff Media) who analyses what is in this file

6) Nat (N 82 50 24) & 2p2 poster Snagglepuss discover that this file is a complete hand history for the tournament - showing every table, and all hole cards of every player.

Hand histories here: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...e=0&fpart=1
Youtube video of hands being replayed here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FczbS7FiWSM


Also, for the straight dope on how this we got to this point, check out N825024's blog at http://www.natarem.com/ .

7) In further analysis of the spreadsheet, Nat and Snagglepuss determine that the IP address, user number and email address of observers has been documented.

8) In 7, they determine that an account with user number 363 observes Potripper's table from 2 minutes into the tournament until the end.

9) At the start of the tournament, for the two hands that user #363 is not observing the table, Potripper folds preflop. He doesn't fold another hand pre-flop for 20minutes, when he open-folds with KK held by a player behind him.

10) They also discover another observer, with the same IP (in San Jose, Costa Rica), with a different user number and the email address scott@rivieraltd.com, observing another table for a short period of time.

11) It is speculated that the other observer could be Potripper's user account.

12) It was determined that the domain rivieraltd.com was pointing to a mail server which happened to be on an IP allocated to Absolute Entertainment SA, at Mohawk Internet Technologies' data center.

12.5) Shortly (within an hour or two) after the findings in 12 are posted here, the DNS information for rivieraltd.com is deleted.

13)The IP associated with the observer in #10 turns out to be a residential cable modem registered to Scott Tom, AP's President as of 2005.

14)Mason weighs in on things here:

15)Absolute sends an email to one player saying they will undergo a formal audit from gamingassociates.com here:
AP also claims Scott Tom has not been employed by AP for over a year, although its known that he was involved with AP as recently as 6 months ago, and may still be running the show from behind the scenes.

16) Steven D. Levitt posts about this story on his NY Times blog for the second time:
First post http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/09/20/how-not-to-cheat/
New post http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/20...lown-wide-open/

17) The Potripper account belongs to AJ Green, former Director of Operations at AP and Scott Tom's best friend. AJ Green is currently VP of operations at nine.com. AJ Green changed his name from Allan Grimard, and was involved in internat scams before AP.

18) The ABS Poker worker who sent the .xls file out no longer is employed by Absolute.

19) DanDruff speaks to a "senior" member of staff @ AP Dan Druff's 1st suggestion http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=12545720

A lot of uproar and criticism followed this post from DD, xxxlink

DD's Next Idea http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=12546896

Dan Druff's view http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=12546433

21) Absolute agree to letting KGC audit/investigate them :

KGC Story

22) Mark Seif plays $1k tourney on Absolute and gets grilled by the rail...but then proceeds to still deny that tourney hands look suspicious and say that Dan Druff is likely to be sued for slander yadda yadda yadda...

23) Associated Press have picked up the story...http://www.ktvn.com/Global/story.asp?S=7229673

24) P5's Admin invited to ABS Poker offices in Costa Rica... Meeting doesn't go as people would have hoped as Absolute still denying a lot pretty much..but P5's possibly letting them off lightly when presented with a great opportunity.
Crossposted Summary

25) AJ Green/Potripper on AP = FATRAISER on Stars
Scott Tom has account at Ultimate Bet under the name of 'PotChopper'

Potchoppers Non-cashes from the DB

26) More Absolute Staff appearing to be 2+2 members :


Josem :

I am reliably informed that:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showprofile.php?Cat=0&User=7262 = RUNNINONMT on UB
That player is Brent Beckley, another major player at AP

his email is brent@rivieraltd.com and from the montana group of people who run ap

Brent also runs the security department at AP.

27) Several other "suspicious" $500 MTT winners were listed but so far, nothing concrete on those, and probably just paranoia.

28) Dan Druff second call from AP was handled by a PR flak and was back to the usual stonewalling and lies.

Dan Druff's 2nd Call with AP

29) Gambling911 picks up the story: http://www.gambling911.com/Absolute-Poker-101807.html

30) P5's gets a phone call saying AP will make a statment saying their system were compromised and they will provide details in a statment coming shortly.


--------- history in last thread ----------

31) The interwebs go wild with everyone patting themselves on the back. Many think AP will own up to everything and redeem themselves.

32) Now that both sides have made public statements and talked with news organizations, the story starts hitting the mass media.

"No management involved" story on Gambling911: http://www.gambling911.com/Absolute-Poker-101907.html
The 'geek' defense on MSN: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21381022/
ABC News coverage: http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=3752500&page=1

33) While agreeing that the stories are all generally well written, posters immediately point out the holes in AP's story, noting it is ripped directly from the plot of recent big-screen blockbuster Live Free or Die Hard. Other posters point out that we might want to wait until the "official" statement, so as to avoid giving AP more information to concoct a believable cover story.

34) N 82 50 24 and Adanthar state that they have more information on AP, but will refrain (for now) from posting the drama bombs to avoid tipping their hand to AP, essentially allowing them to hang themselves with the rope they've been given. We're definitely playing a game of cat-and-mouse with AP now, and AP is losing.

35) A plea from NLfool:

somebody please save all the previous releases from AP and their previous emails to AP players and post it another thread for clarity or the media. There have to be so many lies in it that the public should even be able to decipher.

AP has shown a willingness to try and make evidence disappear. Can someone catalog everything so that their lies are visible to all? Thanks.

36) Mark Seif agrees to have the HHs from his questionable session posted to clear up the issue. Mark and stuckinpgh have requested the HHs from AP.

37) More stories hitting.
Houston Chronicle: http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/fn/5225533.html
Cardplayer: http://www.cardplayer.com/poker-news/article/9959/absolute-poker-confirms-security-breach

38) AP has started calling everyone in the POTRIPPER tournament and giving them $500 for accidentally releasing their personal information.

39) Nat talks to AP on the phone, and they said that they will clean up and go after the person (persons?) who are responsible..

So the bottom line is that he said all of the right things and, if he's telling the truth, then I believe that AP will come out of this an improved and effective organization. If he's feeding me a pile of crap then we're right back where we've been for the last month.

40) As of Friday evening, cashouts from AP are still being processed.

Previous threads here:

We win?

updated 10/18


An Inside Job

Mods, please keep updated.


Edited by KurtSF (10/19/07 08:31 PM)

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
old hand

Reged: 12/04/06
Posts: 799
Loc: Dublin
Re: We haven't won yet: latest (10/19) cliff's notes on AP scandal [Re: KurtSF]
      #12579253 - 10/19/07 08:22 PM


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  

Reged: 12/12/05
Posts: 13
Re: We haven't won yet: latest (10/19) cliff's notes on AP scandal [Re: LuckyLloyd]
      #12579282 - 10/19/07 08:26 PM


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ships It Crucial (to the kids)

Reged: 07/20/04
Posts: 5104
Loc: Adelaide, Australia
Re: We haven't won yet: latest (10/19) cliff's notes on AP scandal [Re: KurtSF]
      #12579291 - 10/19/07 08:27 PM


39) Nat talks to AP on the phone, and they (original text snipped)

I don't think Nat ever said that.

Edited by ChrisV (10/19/07 08:46 PM)

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Carpal \'Tunnel

Reged: 11/06/06
Posts: 5642
Loc: I'm not folding, stop bluffing
Re: We haven't won yet: latest (10/19) cliff's notes on AP scandal [Re: ChrisV]
      #12579306 - 10/19/07 08:28 PM

40) Cashouts still coming out of AP

info from me, think is important, include or w/e

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  

Reged: 06/24/07
Posts: 163
Loc: watch me crank dat robocop
Re: We haven't won yet: latest (10/19) cliff's notes on AP scandal [Re: ikestoys]
      #12579335 - 10/19/07 08:32 PM

wow so now AP is basically saying that Scott Tom and his "crew" were framed wtf

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Carpal \'Tunnel

Reged: 03/22/06
Posts: 4673
Loc: To the pain
Re: We haven't won yet: latest (10/19) cliff's notes on AP scandal [Re: ikestoys]
      #12579339 - 10/19/07 08:33 PM

I think I agree with ike on this. We don't need a million zomg wtf where's my bucks threads at this point.

Actual information about cashouts/transfers etc going thru is probably important just like the reverse would be.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Carpal \'Tunnel

Reged: 09/04/04
Posts: 3048
Re: We haven't won yet: latest (10/19) cliff's notes on AP scandal [Re: ChrisV]
      #12579345 - 10/19/07 08:33 PM



39) Nat talks to AP on the phone, and they give him the same story about a rogue low-level programmer.

I don't think Nat ever said that.

Relevant portion from Nat's phone call:


Among other things, he said that "geek" was not a correct term to be used here and if someone said that it was not what AP meant.

Now, what's more likely? An MSNBC reporter made up some wild story, or AP's throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks?

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Carpal \'Tunnel

Reged: 07/06/06
Posts: 3983
Re: We haven't won yet: latest (10/19) cliff's notes on AP scandal [Re: ikestoys]
      #12579348 - 10/19/07 08:33 PM

OP edited to accurately represent nat, and to include cashout info. I'm going to lose the ability to edit soon, so then its up to the powers that be.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Carpal \'Tunnel

Reged: 03/22/06
Posts: 4673
Loc: To the pain
Re: We haven't won yet: latest (10/19) cliff's notes on AP scandal [Re: KurtSF]
      #12579370 - 10/19/07 08:35 PM

Heh - yeah that will happen. When it does you did your best. Thanks for stepping up. Having done a couple of the early ones I know it takes some effort.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | >> (show all)

Extra information
0 registered and 66 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  citanul, adanthar, Gildwulf, Mike Haven 

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Topic views: 21545

Rate this topic

Jump to

contact us 2+2 Publishing

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5

Message Boards and Forums Directory

Pages provided by ConJelCo