New cliffsnotes on the Absolute Soulreading issue.
This new set of notes will hopefully summarize the last few threads on the suspected cheating accounts in high stakes games at Absolute Poker in the last month or so.
---- Instead of walking everyone thru in chronological order from day one we are going to try to first summarize the activites that raised suspicions and provide a general overview of the issue.
---- We'll give you the raw data we have including hand histories and pokertracker shots and graphs where available.
---- Then we will give views from 2+2 posters including many of those who actually played in the sessions in question, and Absolute's responses or lack of them thus far.
---- and then some funnies/side stories that have come out of the threads.
People are encouraged to interpret the data for themselves instead of taking anyone's word for it. That makes for good debate. If you come across something you don't quite understand- chances are the question has already been asked in one of the threads. Rather than asking the same question and bogging down this thread, please read the entire notes- in which the question may be answered already, or go read thru the other longer threads. They are long and sometimes tedious, but good reads. This way we can hope to avoid rehashing issues.
While doing all of this people should keep in mind that many of the people who have ended up taking the stance "something is definitely not right here" are among the last you may expect to take that side of an issue such as this. Among those taking stances like that are one of the most respected tournaments players in these forums, an elite limit player and former party poker millions cruise winner, and several of the winning regulars in the games being discussed. This isn't your little brothers "ZOMG poker is rigged" thread.
Additional input has come from players who played against the suspected accounts in question in those sessions and from players from other forums. In short- many high stakes winning players cannot find a reasonable plausible alternative for this stretch of data/results other than "he was able to employ some sort of unfair advantage that looks like he could see the cards of his opponents." In many ways that is the core of the issue, that it is so far out of the norm that players who we can reasonably say are among the elite online players available to get opinions from have offered them- and they are damning.
But you don't have to take their word for it. Look at the hand histories and data sets offered. Read the discussion. There have been some posters willing to play "devils advocate" on this- and we won't ignore that aspect in these notes. This thread isn't about rehashing every tidbit that came up in other threads. If you start doing that- expect a mod to break out the banstick if you continue.
This is not a thread for random tangential conspiracy theories, accusations about online poker in general, or a place to associate certain people with certain activities. THAT IS VERBOTEN. Don't make Adanthar, Gild, or any of the other mods bust a cap now.
This is a serious issue that is at risk for being swept under the rug. Hopefully the issues will be laid out as clearly as possible for people to read and ponder.
Thanks in advance for everyone taking the time to read thru it.
As a disclaimer, I don't play at Absolute Poker. I don't play high stakes. I don't play poker for a living. I don't know any of the people involved in any aspect in these hands in real life. I am a longtime online poker player and BBV poster who thinks this is important to discuss. Dat's it.
peace.
Here is the backstory for the issue. Many have contributed to it.
SECURITY FLAW AT ABSOLUTE POKER?
Shortly after a recent software upgrade at Absolute Poker, several accounts with suspicious names and identical maniacal playing styles sat down at the highest-stakes games offered there, where tens of thousands of dollars change hands every hour. Established high-stakes online players quickly noticed these "maniac" players at the tables, and lined up to get a chance to take their money. Amazingly, the top online pros all lost money to these players, at an incredibly fast rate. Since these pros understand poker and statistics better than you or I, they used various software tools to analyze how they could have fared better against these maniacs. They came to the same conclusion: the only possible way these maniacs could have won money is if they could see their opponent's cards.
There have been many, many people claiming "online poker is rigged" ever since it started. And these claims have always been dismissed easily and quickly by the statistics experts. This time was different. The high-stakes players posted their findings on various online poker forums, and other experts who were not directly involved quickly validated their findings. One thing stood out above all others. On the last round of betting (after all the cards had been dealt out), the suspicious accounts always raised or folded - they never simply called a bet. While some players with aggressive playing styles will often raise or fold, it is unheard of to *never* call. "The only time it makes any sense to never call in these spots is if you know if you are ahead or behind-- in other words, if you know your opponent's hole cards," said OnlinePro1. "These maniacs made the right decision in these spots dozens of times in a row.
Others investigated these mystery players and found even more evidence:
- The maniacs had been "chip dumping", intentionally losing to other accounts. - They had finished either dead last or in first place in a series of large online tournaments, another highly improbable statistical anomaly, perhaps in an attempt to cover their tracks - Before the software upgrade, these maniacs had been huge money losers at the low-stakes games, perhaps in another apparent attempt to cover their tracks.
To an overwhelming majority of thinking players who have reviewed this evidence, the conclusion is clear and inescapable: Some form of cheating was taking place at Absolute Poker. Now, this isn't a reason for anyone to conclude that "online poker is rigged" in general. This appears to be an isolated incident at a single online site (although highly unfortunate for the honest players involved who lost money). Absolute Poker has already suspended the accounts of these maniacs, and claims to be conducting an investigation. In the name of fairness, and to reassure the poker community about the safety of play at Absolute Poker and at other online poker sites, we ask Absolute Poker to remiburse the players who lost money to these scam artists, to publish a full analysis of the security leaks and how they have been sealed, and to commission a third-party audit of their internal security systems.
**Here is another version that explains the original POTRIPPER 1K mtt win and how it aroused suspicions.**
Across the world, hundreds of thousands of people often take part in games of online poker. These games are typically run by a variety of businesses - businesses that make a long-term profit because of the safety, security and reliability of their games. Recently, one operator, called "Absolute Poker" appears to have had cheating take place on their site. In short, it appears that certain player accounts are able to view the supposedly hidden cards of other players. In a game of poker it is impossible to beat someone who knows with 100% accuracy what cards you have! In Texas Hold'em poker, the most popular form of poker, each player is dealt two cards. These two cards are then combined with community cards to form the best five card poker hand for each player. The best two cards to be dealt are two aces - often called "pocket aces." This is closely followed in strength by a pair of kings, a pair of queens, and so on. Playing in a recent tournament, the cheaters NEVER made a bet when any of their opponents had pocket kings, pocket aces or pocket queens. This would not be unusual - except that they made a bet on almost every other hand. In other words, they are playing every hand, except when their opponents have one of the strongest possible hands, and they have no possible way to know it (there are no relevant physical "tells" or signs in online poker compared to playing in person). In Texas Hold'em, there are a series of rounds of betting on each hand. There is betting when the first two (hidden face down) cards are dealt, and then after three of the community cards are dealt face up, and then after the next community card, and then after the fifth and final community face up card. The cheater's betting patterns on each round are only explainable by someone who can see other players' cards. For example, on the last round of betting, when all the cards are dealt, one hand is always going to be better than the other player's (sometimes they are tied and are the same, but this is irrelevant here). The players who are cheating always managed to make the right decision at the end. If the opponent's hand was worse, the cheaters would bet or raise. If the cheaters' hand was worse, the cheaters would either fold, or sometimes make a big bluff. Not once did the cheaters call - because if you know what your opponents' cards are, you would never need to call. Much of the data has been collected and analysed using a computer program called PokerTracker, which is used by many professional poker players across the world. This program records games of poker, and calculates statistics on how players play. Hundreds of hands were analyzed by many top online professional poker players, and the consensus position is that these results cannot be achieved without some form of unfair advantage, or cheating.
This is the issue laid out as clearly as possible. Part two will contain the actual data and hand histories that have been analyzed so far.
PART 2- Now some credit to Imsakidd for the first cliffsnotes, and to Edmond Dantes for posting another thread that got locked for being much duplicate info but detailed.
Here is the POTRIPPER hand from the 1K final table that started much of the in thread discussion and investigation.
POTRIPPER made it very deep in a $1k NL tourney, making expert calls like:
Stage #896976330 Tourney ID 1883389 Holdem Multi Normal Tournament No Limit $4500 - 2007-09-13 01:43:49 (ET) Table: 14 (Real Money) Seat #3 is the dealer Seat 3 - POTRIPPER ($765740 in chips) Seat 8 - CRAZYMARCO ($214260 in chips) POTRIPPER - Ante $450 CRAZYMARCO - Ante $450 POTRIPPER - Posts small blind $2250 CRAZYMARCO - Posts big blind $4500 *** POCKET CARDS *** POTRIPPER - Calls $2250 CRAZYMARCO - Checks *** FLOP *** [4h Kd Kh] CRAZYMARCO - Checks POTRIPPER - Bets $9000 CRAZYMARCO - Calls $9000 *** TURN *** [4h Kd Kh] [7s] CRAZYMARCO - Checks POTRIPPER - Bets $13500 CRAZYMARCO - All-In(Raise) $200310 to $200310 POTRIPPER - Calls $186810 *** RIVER *** [4h Kd Kh 7s] [5s] *** SHOW DOWN *** POTRIPPER - Shows [10c 9c] (One pair, kings) CRAZYMARCO - Shows [9h 2h] (One pair, kings) POTRIPPER Collects $428520 from main pot *** SUMMARY *** Total Pot($428520) Board [4h Kd Kh 7s 5s] Seat 3: POTRIPPER (dealer) (small blind) won Total ($428520) HI:($428520) with One pair, kings(ten kicker) [10c 9c - B:Kh,B:Kd,P:10c,P:9c,B:7s] Seat 8: CRAZYMARCO (big blind) HI:lost with One pair, kings [9h 2h - B:Kh,B:Kd,P:9h,B:7s,B:5s]
After some time (or maybe after xposted to BBV), some suspicion was also brought up regarding these players NL play, mostly at 10/20 and 15/30 NL. They all played a VERY loose preflop style (90/80ish) with hudge river aggression factors. These "superusers" were much easier to spot at NL, especially given about 100 hands of HU from ikestoys vs. DOUBLEDRAG. In the 100 hands, the 3 times Doubledrag folded were when ikestoys had QQ-AA, or when another player 3bet before Doubledrag could act.
And some screenshots:
Note in particular the river aggression factors. This becomes the smoking gun in many people's opinion.
------- much of the debate involved in the entire thread is over cheating vs normal variance/running hot. I think it is obvious in the thread that many respected higher stakes players whom nobody would think could talk about accusations like this lightly/are in fact quite convinced something is not right. I'll name Adanthar, Schneids, and ikestoys, among others.
to give an example of how out of the ordinary we are talking... Gemmer points out this hand.
STAGE #746856569: HOLDEM NORMAL $200/$400 - 2007-08-28 11:47:04 (ET) Table: LOC NESS AVE (Real Money) Seat #7 is the dealer Seat 7 - GEMMER ($7200 in chips) Seat 3 - GOFETCH ($11990 in chips) Seat 4 - GRAYCAT ($24027.89 in chips) Seat 5 - MNTBIKR18 ($7880 in chips) GOFETCH - Posts small blind $100 GRAYCAT - Posts big blind $200 *** POCKET CARDS *** Dealt to GEMMER [5d 5c] MNTBIKR18 - Raises $400 to $400 GEMMER - Raises $600 to $600 GOFETCH - Folds GRAYCAT - Raises $600 to $800 MNTBIKR18 - Calls $400 GEMMER - Calls $200 *** FLOP *** [2c 2s 5s] GRAYCAT - Checks MNTBIKR18 - Checks GEMMER - Bets $200 GRAYCAT - Folds MNTBIKR18 - Calls $200 *** TURN *** [2c 2s 5s] [10h] MNTBIKR18 - Checks GEMMER - Bets $400 MNTBIKR18 - Calls $400 *** RIVER *** [2c 2s 5s 10h] [Ah] MNTBIKR18 - Checks GEMMER - Bets $400 MNTBIKR18 - Calls $400 *** SHOW DOWN *** GEMMER - Shows [5d 5c] (Full house, fives full of twos) MNTBIKR18 - Mucks GEMMER Collects $4495 from main pot *** SUMMARY *** Total Pot($4500) | Rake ($5) Board [2c 2s 5s 10h Ah] Seat 3: GOFETCH (small blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS Seat 4: GRAYCAT (big blind) Folded on the FLOP Seat 5: MNTBIKR18 HI: [Mucked] [Jh 10c] Seat 7: GEMMER (dealer) won Total ($4495) HI:($4495) with Full house, fives full of twos [5d 5c - B:5s,P:5d,P:5c,B:2s,B:2c]
He coldcaps preflop and then proceeds to check/fold the flop on this board.
------ Adanthar provides HHs from the 1K event. His analysis/commentary
Quote: thanks to p5's, I got the HH for potripper's first 2 hours. Unfortunately, PT can't import it for some freak reason again, so I'm going through it manually.
First big doubleup hand:
Table: 13 (Real Money) Seat #3 is the dealer [ 2007-09-12 21:15:24 ] Stage #896578317 Tourney ID 1883389 Holdem Multi Normal Tournament No Limit $20 - 2007-09-12 21:15:24.010 (ET) Seat 4 - POTR0AST ($9875 in chips) Seat 5 - POKERME420 ($10320 in chips) Seat 6 - SCOTT_NZL ($9795 in chips) Seat 7 - DZ00NUTS ($8452 in chips) Seat 8 - KOOLKEITH13 ($9960 in chips) Seat 9 - SCARFACE_79 ($9970 in chips) Seat 1 - BIGREDAK86 ($9940 in chips) Seat 3 - POTRIPPER ($14152 in chips) Seat 2 - JOSIAHW ($7466 in chips) POTR0AST - Posts small blind $10 POKERME420 - Posts big blind $20 *** POCKET CARDS *** Dealt to SCARFACE_79 [5s Js] SCOTT_NZL - Calls $20 DZ00NUTS - Raises $60 to $60 KOOLKEITH13 - Folds SCARFACE_79 - Folds BIGREDAK86 - Folds JOSIAHW - Folds POTRIPPER - Raises $160 to $160 POKERME420 - Folds POTR0AST - Folds SCOTT_NZL - Calls $140 DZ00NUTS - Calls $100 *** FLOP *** [7d 2d 4c] SCOTT_NZL - Checks DZ00NUTS - Checks POTRIPPER - Bets $300 DZ00NUTS - Folds SCOTT_NZL - Raises $900 to $900 POTRIPPER - Raises $2000 to $2300 SCOTT_NZL - Raises $4640 to $5540 POTRIPPER - All-In(Raise) $11692 to $13992 SCOTT_NZL - All-In $4095 POTRIPPER - returned ($4357) : not called *** TURN *** [7d 2d 4c] [7c] *** RIVER *** [7d 2d 4c 7c] [9d] *** SHOW DOWN *** POTRIPPER - Shows [10h 10c] (Two Pair, tens and sevens) SCOTT_NZL - Shows [8c 8h] (Two Pair, eights and sevens) POTRIPPER Collects $19780 from main pot
This would be donkish but normal in any tournament except the 1K. In the 1K, it's suspicious given our other evidence so far. But let's move on. The very next hand:
great read one more time sir. also, good river vbet:
POTRIPPER - Raises $1600 to $1600 POTR0AST - Calls $1600 POKERME420 - Folds BLANCONEGRO - Folds CLOVER777 - Folds *** FLOP *** [9h 6h 6s] POTRIPPER - Bets $2800 POTR0AST - Calls $2800 *** TURN *** [9h 6h 6s] [3c] POTRIPPER - Bets $5200 POTR0AST - Raises $10400 to $10400 POTRIPPER - Calls $5200 *** RIVER *** [9h 6h 6s 3c] [5h] POTRIPPER - Bets $6000 POTR0AST - Calls $6000 *** SHOW DOWN *** POTRIPPER - Shows [Qs 3s] (Two Pair, sixes and threes) POTR0AST - Mucks *** SUMMARY *** POTRIPPER Collects $42560 from main pot Total Pot($42560) Board [9h 6h 6s 3c 5h] Seat 1: AUTOSMOKE Folded on the POCKET CARDS Seat 2: OBV_DONK Folded on the POCKET CARDS Seat 3: POTRIPPER won Total ($42560) HI:($42560) with Two Pair, sixes and threes [Qs 3s - B:6s,B:6h,P:3s,B:3c,P:Qs] Seat 4: POTR0AST HI: [Mucked] [Jc As]
next hand:
POTRIPPER - Raises $1600 to $1600 POTR0AST - Folds POKERME420 - Calls $1600 BLANCONEGRO - Folds CLOVER777 - Folds SMOOVESTEELY - Folds *** FLOP *** [2d Ad 5s] POTRIPPER - Bets $400 POKERME420 - Calls $400 *** TURN *** [2d Ad 5s] [5h] POTRIPPER - Checks POKERME420 - Bets $1200 POTRIPPER - Raises $2400 to $2400 POKERME420 - Calls $1200 *** RIVER *** [2d Ad 5s 5h] [8d] POTRIPPER - Bets $3600 POKERME420 - All-In(Raise) $15790 to $15790 POTRIPPER - Calls $12190 *** SHOW DOWN *** POKERME420 - Shows [Jc Kd] (One pair, fives) POTRIPPER - Shows [As 2h] (Two Pair, aces and fives) POTRIPPER Collects $41340 from main pot
[This hand got mixed in with the others sent to me somehow - its from an hour later] I think he just got bored at this point/had pot odds to call anyway/note his stack:
Seat 9 - SCARFACE_79 ($11616 in chips) Seat 1 - AUTOSMOKE ($6564 in chips) Seat 2 - OBV_DONK ($5675 in chips) Seat 3 - POTRIPPER ($89564 in chips) Seat 6 - BLANCONEGRO ($8730 in chips) Seat 4 - POTR0AST ($17340 in chips) Seat 7 - CLOVER777 ($2195 in chips) Seat 8 - SMOOVESTEELY ($18900 in chips) AUTOSMOKE - Ante $60 OBV_DONK - Ante $60 POTRIPPER - Ante $60 POTR0AST - Ante $60 BLANCONEGRO - Ante $60 SMOOVESTEELY - Ante $60 CLOVER777 - Ante $60 SCARFACE_79 - Ante $60 SCARFACE_79 - Posts small blind $300 AUTOSMOKE - Posts big blind $600 *** POCKET CARDS *** Dealt to SCARFACE_79 [7h 10c] OBV_DONK - Folds POTR0AST - Folds POTRIPPER - Raises $1800 to $1800 BLANCONEGRO - Raises $8400 to $8400 SMOOVESTEELY - Folds CLOVER777 - Folds SCARFACE_79 - Folds AUTOSMOKE - Folds POTRIPPER - Calls $6600 *** FLOP *** [2c 6d Kd] POTRIPPER - Checks BLANCONEGRO - All-In(Raise) $270 to $270 POTRIPPER - Calls $270 *** RIVER *** [2c 6d Kd Kh] [3c] *** TURN *** [2c 6d Kd] [Kh] *** SHOW DOWN *** POTRIPPER - Shows [10s Qd] (One pair, kings) BLANCONEGRO - Shows [8s As] (One pair, kings)
not shown: potripper not missing a single opportunity to perfectly make his opponents fold or value betting TP vs. 2nd pair.
questions?
edit: let's not forget the final hand of the donkament!
Seat 3 - POTRIPPER ($765740 in chips) Seat 8 - CRAZYMARCO ($214260 in chips) POTRIPPER - Ante $450 CRAZYMARCO - Ante $450 POTRIPPER - Posts small blind $2250 CRAZYMARCO - Posts big blind $4500 *** POCKET CARDS *** POTRIPPER - Calls $2250 CRAZYMARCO - Checks *** FLOP *** [4h Kd Kh] CRAZYMARCO - Checks POTRIPPER - Bets $9000 CRAZYMARCO - Calls $9000 *** TURN *** [4h Kd Kh] [7s] CRAZYMARCO - Checks POTRIPPER - Bets $13500 CRAZYMARCO - All-In(Raise) $200310 to $200310 POTRIPPER - Calls $186810 *** RIVER *** [4h Kd Kh 7s] [5s] *** SHOW DOWN *** POTRIPPER - Shows [10c 9c] (One pair, kings) CRAZYMARCO - Shows [9h 2h] (One pair, kings) POTRIPPER Collects $428520 from main pot
someone says "meh that doesnt look like much... Adanthar adds...
Quote:
His stats in this thing are something like 85/60, and what I left out is an absolutely perfect check/fold (inc first to act) vs bet pattern. Just like DD, he never showed down a worse hand. What you make out of that is up to you.
------- poster comhood shows up with HHs from the 1K with Potripper and ships Adanthar the goods.
"Hi, I finished 4th in the 1000$ tournament (as monsterhood) where Potripper was revealed, and the most famous HH part is from)... can anyone tell me how i get in touch with the moderators? I want to show them parts of my HH as additional proof (though not everybody, obv) Anyone know how i do that? ty"
-------Adanthar takes a look and replies/analyzes.
stream of consciousness post incoming. I'm writing down every single hand:
2nd hand (5 handed table):
Dealt to MONSTERHOOD [Kc 10s] *** POCKET CARDS *** MONSTERHOOD - Raises $7200 to $7200 BIGGIES05 - Folds POTRIPPER - Raises $40800 to $40800
only fold in the first 8 hands is UTG - someone else raises UTG+1
If the hand before that was a 'respect the EP raiser' spot, this one seems odd. These are the first four hands at the FT, in order. Tentative conclusion: When he moved to the FT, the hole card cam wasn't on, and turning it on takes a few seconds - maybe you need to specify the table.
Hand 5: Potripper raises UTG and steals the blinds. Hand 6:
POTRIPPER - Raises $7200 to $7200 PLETT25 - Folds CRAZYMARCO - Folds MONSTERHOOD - Calls $3600 with two random cards that aren't an A, 5 or 4 *** FLOP *** [4c Ad 5c] MONSTERHOOD - Checks POTRIPPER - Bets $7200 MONSTERHOOD - Folds
28: he has the pot odds to make this call if he puts monsterhood exactly on A3
Seat 1 - MONSTERHOOD ($51680 in chips) Seat 3 - POTRIPPER ($558072 in chips) Seat 4 - PLETT25 ($93188 in chips) Seat 8 - CRAZYMARCO ($277060 in chips) MONSTERHOOD - Ante $360 POTRIPPER - Ante $360 PLETT25 - Ante $360 CRAZYMARCO - Ante $360 MONSTERHOOD - Posts small blind $1800 POTRIPPER - Posts big blind $3600 Dealt to MONSTERHOOD [As 3d] *** POCKET CARDS *** PLETT25 - Folds CRAZYMARCO - Raises $8175 to $8175 MONSTERHOOD - All-In(Raise) $49520 to $51320 POTRIPPER - Calls $47720 CRAZYMARCO - Folds *** TURN *** [Jh Qc 5d] [Kd] *** FLOP *** [Jh Qc 5d] *** RIVER *** [Jh Qc 5d Kd] [Ad] *** SHOW DOWN *** MONSTERHOOD - Shows [As 3d] (One pair, aces) POTRIPPER - Shows [Qh 10s] (Straight, ten to ace)
------- Adanthar clarifies some things.
"Minus the first two hands at the FT where I don't think he was cheating, the HH from 8 handed to 4 handed lasts 26 hands.
In total, he folded PF 5 times. One was when he called a raise and then folded to CM's squeeze behind. Of the other four, two were open folds and two were folds to a raise in front.
The raises in front were QQ 1x and JJ 1x. When he open folded, people behind him had AA 1x and KK 1x.
He also open limped on the button once (there were no other open limps in this HH), with 97s vs. what turned out to be KJo. "
need a little break before I get the other sessions including the dumping sessions- the heads up dump- and the last pokertracker shots from the cash games.
so confusing at times having 4-5 windows open trying to pull it all together.
---- Here are the winning sessions for suspected account Doubledrag.
Quote: DOUBLEDRAG NL sessions for 9/6 and 9/7. Of note: All of these are of him sitting at exactly 1 table. I think it's confirmed at this point that the software he's using does not have multitable capability:
----- Suspected account Doubledrag sits and appears to chipdump at the Absolute cash tables days later, playing much differently than any of the other sessions in which the accounts won vast sums of money. A rational explanation is to coverup overall statistics if he has drawn attention. Notice the bizarre calls on rivers with sure losers.
Here is how the hands went down at the time in threads.
------ things get exciting. Poster Johnnycakes notes that suspected account Doubledrag is sitting at AP 10/20 NL. Fireworks ensue.
some hands...
Stage #764235402: Holdem No Limit $20 - 2007-09-16 18:57:07 (ET) Table: DOHENY AVE (Real Money) Seat #5 is the dealer Seat 5 - DOUBLEDRAG ($4000 in chips) Seat 2 - 2006STANGGT ($800 in chips) DOUBLEDRAG - Posts small blind $10 2006STANGGT - Posts big blind $20 *** POCKET CARDS *** DOUBLEDRAG - Calls $10 2006STANGGT - Checks *** FLOP *** [4c 6s 3c] 2006STANGGT - Bets $20 DOUBLEDRAG - Calls $20 *** TURN *** [4c 6s 3c] [5c] 2006STANGGT - Bets $40 DOUBLEDRAG - Raises $80 to $80 2006STANGGT - Calls $40 *** RIVER *** [4c 6s 3c 5c] [3d] 2006STANGGT - All-In $680 DOUBLEDRAG - Calls $680 *** SHOW DOWN *** 2006STANGGT - Shows [5d 3h] (Full house, threes full of fives) DOUBLEDRAG - Mucks 2006STANGGT Collects $1599.50 from main pot *** SUMMARY *** Total Pot($1600) | Rake ($0.50) Board [4c 6s 3c 5c 3d] Seat 2: 2006STANGGT (big blind) won Total ($1599.50) All-In HI:($1599.50) with Full house, threes full of fives [5d 3h - P:3h,B:3d,B:3c,P:5d,B:5c] Seat 5: DOUBLEDRAG (dealer) (small blind) HI: [Mucked] [Qs 2h]
LOL, he's read the thread?
Holdem No Limit $20 - 2007-09-16 18:57:40 (ET) Table: DOHENY AVE (Real Money) Seat #2 is the dealer Seat 2 - 2006STANGGT ($1599.50 in chips) Seat 5 - DOUBLEDRAG ($3200 in chips) 2006STANGGT - Posts small blind $10 DOUBLEDRAG - Posts big blind $20 *** POCKET CARDS *** 2006STANGGT - Calls $10 DOUBLEDRAG - Checks *** FLOP *** [5h Kd 8c] DOUBLEDRAG - Checks 2006STANGGT - Bets $20 DOUBLEDRAG - Calls $20 *** TURN *** [5h Kd 8c] [4d] DOUBLEDRAG - Checks 2006STANGGT - Checks *** RIVER *** [5h Kd 8c 4d] [6c] DOUBLEDRAG - Checks 2006STANGGT - Bets $140 DOUBLEDRAG - Calls $140 *** SHOW DOWN *** 2006STANGGT - Shows [2c 7h] (Straight, four to eight) DOUBLEDRAG - Shows [5s 7c] (Straight, four to eight) 2006STANGGT Collects $179.75 from main pot DOUBLEDRAG Collects $179.75 from main pot *** SUMMARY *** Total Pot($360) | Rake ($0.50) Board [5h Kd 8c 4d 6c] Seat 2: 2006STANGGT (dealer) (small blind) won Total ($179.75) HI:($179.75) with Straight, four to eight [2c 7h - B:8c,P:7h,B:6c,B:5h,B:4d] Seat 5: DOUBLEDRAG (big blind) won Total ($179.75) HI:($179.75) with Straight, four to eight [5s 7c - B:8c,P:7c,B:6c,P:5s,B:4d]
From Hawklet...
must have thought 4 high was good
Stage #764259764: Holdem No Limit $20 - 2007-09-16 19:02:42 (ET) Table: DOHENY AVE (Real Money) Seat #2 is the dealer Seat 2 - 2006STANGGT ($1737.75 in chips) Seat 5 - DOUBLEDRAG ($3057.75 in chips) 2006STANGGT - Posts small blind $10 DOUBLEDRAG - Posts big blind $20 *** POCKET CARDS *** 2006STANGGT - Calls $10 DOUBLEDRAG - Checks *** FLOP *** [5c 5d Qh] DOUBLEDRAG - Checks 2006STANGGT - Checks *** TURN *** [5c 5d Qh] [7d] DOUBLEDRAG - Checks 2006STANGGT - Bets $40 DOUBLEDRAG - Calls $40 *** RIVER *** [5c 5d Qh 7d] [2s] DOUBLEDRAG - Checks 2006STANGGT - Bets $60 DOUBLEDRAG - Calls $60 *** SHOW DOWN *** 2006STANGGT - Shows [4c 6c] (One pair, fives) DOUBLEDRAG - Mucks 2006STANGGT Collects $239.50 from main pot *** SUMMARY *** Total Pot($240) | Rake ($0.50) Board [5c 5d Qh 7d 2s] Seat 2: 2006STANGGT (dealer) (small blind) won Total ($239.50) HI:($239.50) with One pair, fives(six kicker) [4c 6c - B:5d,B:5c,B:Qh,B:7d,P:6c] Seat 5: DOUBLEDRAG (big blind) HI: [Mucked] [3s 4s]
Parlay Slow makes the insight... "doubledrag is just taunting 2+2 with that 4 high call"
quote]------- hands from the sessions....
Stage #764273045: Holdem No Limit $20 - 2007-09-16 19:18:36 (ET) Table: DOHENY AVE (Real Money) Seat #5 is the dealer Seat 5 - DOUBLEDRAG ($4059.50 in chips) Seat 2 - GP333 ($4578.50 in chips) Seat 3 - RAM20INCH ($800 in chips) GP333 - Posts small blind $10 RAM20INCH - Posts big blind $20 *** POCKET CARDS *** DOUBLEDRAG - Raises $40 to $40 GP333 - Folds RAM20INCH - All-In(Raise) $780 to $800 DOUBLEDRAG - Calls $760 *** FLOP *** [6h Qd 9h] *** TURN *** [6h Qd 9h] [5h] *** RIVER *** [6h Qd 9h 5h] [8s] *** SHOW DOWN *** RAM20INCH - Shows [Qs Ks] (One pair, queens) DOUBLEDRAG - Shows [7s Kd] (Straight, five to nine) DOUBLEDRAG Collects $1608 from main pot *** SUMMARY *** Total Pot($1610) | Rake ($2) Board [6h Qd 9h 5h 8s] Seat 2: GP333 (small blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS Seat 3: RAM20INCH (big blind) HI:lost with One pair, queens [Qs Ks - P:Qs,B:Qd,P:Ks,B:9h,B:8s] Seat 5: DOUBLEDRAG (dealer) won Total ($1608) HI:($1608) with Straight, five to nine [7s Kd - B:9h,B:8s,P:7s,B:6h,B:5h]
Stage #764276226: Holdem No Limit $20 - 2007-09-16 19:22:24 (ET) Table: DOHENY AVE (Real Money) Seat #2 is the dealer Seat 2 - GP333 ($5375.50 in chips) Seat 5 - DOUBLEDRAG ($4056.50 in chips) GP333 - Posts small blind $10 DOUBLEDRAG - Posts big blind $20 *** POCKET CARDS *** GP333 - Raises $50 to $60 DOUBLEDRAG - Calls $40 *** FLOP *** [6s Kh Ah] DOUBLEDRAG - Checks GP333 - Bets $80 DOUBLEDRAG - Calls $80 *** TURN *** [6s Kh Ah] [Ac] DOUBLEDRAG - Bets $80 GP333 - Raises $220 to $220 DOUBLEDRAG - Calls $140 *** RIVER *** [6s Kh Ah Ac] [4h] DOUBLEDRAG - Checks GP333 - Bets $700 DOUBLEDRAG - Calls $700 *** SHOW DOWN *** GP333 - Shows [Qh 6h] (Flush, ace high) DOUBLEDRAG - Mucks GP333 Collects $2119.50 from main pot *** SUMMARY *** Total Pot($2120) | Rake ($0.50) Board [6s Kh Ah Ac 4h] Seat 2: GP333 (dealer) (small blind) won Total ($2119.50) HI:($2119.50) with Flush, ace high [Qh 6h - B:Ah,B:Kh,P:Qh,P:6h,B:4h] Seat 5: DOUBLEDRAG (big blind) HI: [Mucked] [3d Ad]
Stage #764265850: Holdem No Limit $20 - 2007-09-16 19:09:52 (ET) Table: DOHENY AVE (Real Money) Seat #6 is the dealer Seat 6 - PROT0 ($764.12 in chips) Seat 5 - DOUBLEDRAG ($2815.75 in chips) PROT0 - Posts small blind $10 DOUBLEDRAG - Posts big blind $20 *** POCKET CARDS *** PROT0 - Calls $10 DOUBLEDRAG - Raises $20 to $40 PROT0 - Calls $20 *** FLOP *** [Qc 3s 9c] DOUBLEDRAG - Bets $20 PROT0 - Raises $166 to $166 DOUBLEDRAG - Calls $146 *** TURN *** [Qc 3s 9c] [7d] DOUBLEDRAG - Checks PROT0 - All-In $558.12 DOUBLEDRAG - Calls $558.12 *** RIVER *** [Qc 3s 9c 7d] [10s] *** SHOW DOWN *** DOUBLEDRAG - Shows [Kc 4h] (king high) PROT0 - Shows [Qh 8s] (One pair, queens) PROT0 Collects $1527.74 from main pot
Stage #764319278: Holdem No Limit $20 - 2007-09-16 20:10:58 (ET) Table: DOHENY AVE (Real Money) Seat #4 is the dealer Seat 4 - HYPERMOUSE ($3217.70 in chips) Seat 5 - DOUBLEDRAG ($3390 in chips) Seat 1 - JPO123 ($1534.50 in chips) Seat 2 - GP333 ($9785.25 in chips) DOUBLEDRAG - Posts small blind $10 JPO123 - Posts big blind $20 *** POCKET CARDS *** GP333 - Folds HYPERMOUSE - Raises $70 to $70 DOUBLEDRAG - Raises $130 to $140 JPO123 - Folds HYPERMOUSE - Calls $70 *** FLOP *** [6s 4d 6c] DOUBLEDRAG - Bets $580 HYPERMOUSE - Calls $580 *** TURN *** [6s 4d 6c] [4s] DOUBLEDRAG - All-In $2670 HYPERMOUSE - All-In $2497.70 DOUBLEDRAG - returned ($172.30) : not called *** RIVER *** [6s 4d 6c 4s] [5s] *** SHOW DOWN *** HYPERMOUSE - Shows [3d 6h] (Full house, sixes full of fours) DOUBLEDRAG - Shows [10c Jd] (Two Pair, sixes and fours)
Stage #764321824: Holdem No Limit $20 - 2007-09-16 20:13:40 (ET) Table: DOHENY AVE (Real Money) Seat #2 is the dealer Seat 2 - GP333 ($9955.55 in chips) Seat 4 - HYPERMOUSE ($6433.40 in chips) Seat 5 - DOUBLEDRAG ($3607.70 in chips) Seat 1 - JPO123 ($1752.50 in chips) HYPERMOUSE - Posts small blind $10 DOUBLEDRAG - Posts big blind $20 *** POCKET CARDS *** JPO123 - Raises $60 to $60 GP333 - Raises $240 to $240 HYPERMOUSE - Folds DOUBLEDRAG - Calls $220 JPO123 - Folds *** FLOP *** [10c Qh 6h] DOUBLEDRAG - All-In $3367.70 GP333 - Calls $3367.70 *** TURN *** [10c Qh 6h] [Kh] *** RIVER *** [10c Qh 6h Kh] [8h] *** SHOW DOWN *** GP333 - Shows [Kd Ks] (Three of a kind, kings) DOUBLEDRAG - Shows [3h 2s] (Flush, king high) DOUBLEDRAG Collects $7283.40 from main pot
Stage #764329584: Holdem No Limit $20 - 2007-09-16 20:21:54 (ET) Table: DOHENY AVE (Real Money) Seat #1 is the dealer Seat 1 - JPO123 ($2396 in chips) Seat 2 - GP333 ($7994.85 in chips) Seat 3 - GREEKSQUARED ($770 in chips) Seat 4 - HYPERMOUSE ($6480.40 in chips) Seat 5 - DOUBLEDRAG ($4889.90 in chips) GP333 - Posts small blind $10 GREEKSQUARED - Posts big blind $20 *** POCKET CARDS *** HYPERMOUSE - Raises $70 to $70 DOUBLEDRAG - Raises $180 to $180 JPO123 - Folds GP333 - Folds GREEKSQUARED - Raises $380 to $400 HYPERMOUSE - Folds DOUBLEDRAG - Calls $220 *** FLOP *** [Qd 3d 4h] GREEKSQUARED - Bets $200 DOUBLEDRAG - Raises $4280 to $4280 GREEKSQUARED - All-In $170 DOUBLEDRAG - returned ($3910) : not called *** TURN *** [Qd 3d 4h] [9s] *** RIVER *** [Qd 3d 4h 9s] [Js] *** SHOW DOWN *** GREEKSQUARED - Shows [Ad As] (One pair, aces) DOUBLEDRAG - Shows [7d Jh] (One pair, jacks) GREEKSQUARED Collects $1617 from main pot
At this point it is fairly obvious he has read the threads. Although more obvious to some than others... as Adanthar's reply to a post shows...
Quote:
Quote: Right now, from the HH's I see here, it seems likely that he has read the monster threads, realized he has been caught and is now playing a maniacal style but intentionally losing this time so that people go "oh wait look that style IS a losing one", hoping to calm people down.
was it the c/c with 4 high that tipped you off?
----- doubledrag leaves and comes back a couple times. ----- hands...
Stage #764374293: Holdem No Limit $20 - 2007-09-16 21:10:18 (ET) Table: GALVESTON AVE (Real Money) Seat #2 is the dealer Seat 2 - GP333 ($4300 in chips) Seat 3 - DOUBLEDRAG ($2804 in chips) Seat 4 - CALVINHOBBES ($4177 in chips) Seat 5 - MANUTEBOLJR ($5371 in chips) Seat 6 - BIGHEAD909 ($2861.50 in chips) Seat 1 - FU_BEGGAR ($4064 in chips) DOUBLEDRAG - Posts small blind $10 CALVINHOBBES - Posts big blind $20 *** POCKET CARDS *** MANUTEBOLJR - Folds BIGHEAD909 - Folds FU_BEGGAR - Raises $80 to $80 GP333 - Calls $80 DOUBLEDRAG - Raises $190 to $200 CALVINHOBBES - Folds FU_BEGGAR - Folds GP333 - Calls $120 *** FLOP *** [3c 5d Qc] DOUBLEDRAG - Checks GP333 - Checks *** TURN *** [3c 5d Qc] [Qs] DOUBLEDRAG - Bets $40 GP333 - Raises $580 to $580 DOUBLEDRAG - Calls $540 *** RIVER *** [3c 5d Qc Qs] [Jd] DOUBLEDRAG - Checks GP333 - Checks *** SHOW DOWN *** DOUBLEDRAG - Shows [10h 7d] (One pair, queens) GP333 - Shows [6h 6c] (Two Pair, queens and sixes) GP333 Collects $1657 from main pot *** SUMMARY *** Total Pot($1660) | Rake ($3) Board [3c 5d Qc Qs Jd] Seat 1: FU_BEGGAR Folded on the POCKET CARDS Seat 2: GP333 (dealer) won Total ($1657) HI:($1657) with Two Pair, queens and sixes [6h 6c - B:Qs,B:Qc,P:6h,P:6c,B:Jd] Seat 3: DOUBLEDRAG (small blind) HI:lost with One pair, queens [10h 7d - B:Qs,B:Qc,B:Jd,P:10h,P:7d] Seat 4: CALVINHOBBES (big blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS Seat 5: MANUTEBOLJR Folded on the POCKET CARDS Seat 6: BIGHEAD909 Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Stage #764381019: Holdem No Limit $20 - 2007-09-16 21:17:28 (ET) Table: DOHENY AVE (Real Money) Seat #1 is the dealer Seat 1 - BIGHEAD909 ($824 in chips) Seat 2 - WPORTER ($1567 in chips) Seat 3 - DOUBLEDRAG ($4137 in chips) Seat 4 - CALVINHOBBES ($4000 in chips) Seat 5 - MANUTEBOLJR ($2062 in chips) Seat 6 - FU_BEGGAR ($5056 in chips) WPORTER - Posts small blind $10 DOUBLEDRAG - Posts big blind $20 *** POCKET CARDS *** CALVINHOBBES - Calls $20 MANUTEBOLJR - Folds FU_BEGGAR - Folds BIGHEAD909 - Folds WPORTER - Calls $10 DOUBLEDRAG - Raises $40 to $60 CALVINHOBBES - Calls $40 WPORTER - Calls $40 *** FLOP *** [3d 7d Ac] WPORTER - Checks DOUBLEDRAG - Bets $60 CALVINHOBBES - Calls $60 WPORTER - Calls $60 *** TURN *** [3d 7d Ac] [5d] WPORTER - Checks DOUBLEDRAG - Bets $80 CALVINHOBBES - Calls $80 WPORTER - Raises $400 to $400 DOUBLEDRAG - Calls $320 CALVINHOBBES - Folds *** RIVER *** [3d 7d Ac 5d] [5c] WPORTER - Bets $750 DOUBLEDRAG - Raises $3400 to $3400 WPORTER - All-In $297 DOUBLEDRAG - returned ($2353) : not called *** SHOW DOWN *** DOUBLEDRAG - Shows [6c 8c] (One pair, fives) WPORTER - Shows [Ad 10h] (Two Pair, aces and fives) WPORTER Collects $3331 from main pot *** SUMMARY *** Total Pot($3334) | Rake ($3) Board [3d 7d Ac 5d 5c] Seat 1: BIGHEAD909 (dealer) Folded on the POCKET CARDS Seat 2: WPORTER (small blind) won Total ($3331) All-In HI:($3331) with Two Pair, aces and fives [Ad 10h - P:Ad,B:Ac,B:5d,B:5c,P:10h] Seat 3: DOUBLEDRAG (big blind) HI:lost with One pair, fives [6c 8c - B:5d,B:5c,B:Ac,P:8c,B:7d] Seat 4: CALVINHOBBES Folded on the TURN Seat 5: MANUTEBOLJR Folded on the POCKET CARDS Seat 6: FU_BEGGAR Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Stage #764384931: Holdem No Limit $20 - 2007-09-16 21:21:38 (ET) Table: DOHENY AVE (Real Money) Seat #6 is the dealer Seat 6 - FU_BEGGAR ($4986 in chips) Seat 1 - BIGHEAD909 ($764 in chips) Seat 2 - WPORTER ($3518 in chips) Seat 3 - DOUBLEDRAG ($3517 in chips) Seat 4 - CALVINHOBBES ($4644 in chips) Seat 5 - MANUTEBOLJR ($1842 in chips) BIGHEAD909 - Posts small blind $10 WPORTER - Posts big blind $20 *** POCKET CARDS *** DOUBLEDRAG - Raises $40 to $40 CALVINHOBBES - Folds MANUTEBOLJR - Calls $40 FU_BEGGAR - Calls $40 BIGHEAD909 - Calls $30 WPORTER - Folds *** FLOP *** [Kh Js Kc] BIGHEAD909 - Bets $40 DOUBLEDRAG - Calls $40 MANUTEBOLJR - Calls $40 FU_BEGGAR - Folds *** TURN *** [Kh Js Kc] [6s] BIGHEAD909 - Bets $80 DOUBLEDRAG - Calls $80 MANUTEBOLJR - Folds *** RIVER *** [Kh Js Kc 6s] [4d] BIGHEAD909 - Bets $180 DOUBLEDRAG - Calls $180 *** SHOW DOWN *** BIGHEAD909 - Shows [Ks 9c] (Three of a kind, kings) DOUBLEDRAG - Mucks BIGHEAD909 Collects $817 from main pot *** SUMMARY *** Total Pot($820) | Rake ($3) Board [Kh Js Kc 6s 4d] Seat 1: BIGHEAD909 (small blind) won Total ($817) HI:($817) with Three of a kind, kings [Ks 9c - P:Ks,B:Kh,B:Kc,B:Js,P:9c] Seat 2: WPORTER (big blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS Seat 3: DOUBLEDRAG HI: [Mucked] [5s Qh] Seat 4: CALVINHOBBES Folded on the POCKET CARDS Seat 5: MANUTEBOLJR Folded on the TURN Seat 6: FU_BEGGAR (dealer) Folded on the FLOP
----- doubledrag's pokertracker graph for the session/s found here...
09/21/07 perhaps an important missing piece. ----- Dan Druff just responded in the other thread.
Quote:
...Anyway, I haven't seen mentioned yet that SUPERCARDM55 was the recipient of 55k of GRAYCAT's money in an obvious heads-up chip dump session on August 30th.
So it appears ROMNALDO was used to take DOUBLEDRAG's money, and SUPERCARDM55 was used to take GRAYCAT's money. There must be other accounts used for STEAMROLLER, POTRIPPER, and whoever else.
It also is worth noting that GRAYCAT was "complaining" about his "losses" to SUPERCARDM55 as they were happening. Stuff like, "omg my luck is so terrible", "[censored] I'm going to lose it all", etc, etc. Again, over-the-top stuff to weakly try to cover up what was really going on.
SUPERCARDM55 had never been seen before -- at least not at the high limits. He played one session two days later, did NOT appear to be cheating, lost some money, and left after about an hour or so. Never been seen again, to my knowledge.
Find out who SUPERCARDM55 and ROMNALDO belong to, and we have our answer as to who the guilty parties really are.
So there you have the basic data/evidence for the arguments. I'll try pull in some of the ROMNALDO hands when I come across them. In part three we will cover some of what has been debated about what is being seen, but that isn't the main point of the thread. This thread is to keep "what we know" apart from some of what "people think it means".
I'll do more soon- but this stuff is so deep and bogged down beyond the actual happenings I'm not totally positive how to organize it right now.
Maybe it's just best to take a break and let people see the story and data without all the debate for a bit.
Right now APs response has been mixed/confusing/incomprehensible depending on which response you got from them.
They have said everything from
--- we are investigating and taking it seriously --- we have investigated and there is nothing out of the ordinary --- wtfzomgbbq
Reactions from players to their lack of response thus far is --- "standard" --- "standard and im not going to play there any more" --- "wtfzomgbbq"
I'm too beat right now to sum up all of those aspects of it. If anyone wants to tackle it and tack it on they are welcome- otherwise I'll do more while watching some football today (sat).
Two Plus Two 
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