jman220
Please to be Mod?
Reged: 05/12/05
Posts: 7160
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In Case You don't read BBV, this is important information:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...=0#Post12097244
And:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...p;vc=1&nt=3
And:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...=0#Post12075548
Cliffs Notes:
High Stakes Absolute Poker Player can see opponents hole cards, probably through a "super user" account rumored to exist on AP. This player has made hundreds of thousands of dollars in a few hundred hands, playing 96/70, with an infinite river aggression factor. No this is not a level. No this is not a crazy "Online Poker is rigged conspiracy theory," pretty much every high stakes and reputable poster on 2+2 who has weighed in on the evidence agrees.
Usernames are Graycat and Doubledrag and Potripper.
Edited by jman220 (09/16/07 10:25 PM)
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xxeximusxx
addict
Reged: 03/10/07
Posts: 460
Loc: i ain't got my taco
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to long didn't read
is one of them mark seif?lol
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stetda
member
Reged: 06/13/07
Posts: 111
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that is nuts.... what was absolute's response if any?
too long to read... cliff notes sums it up well (at least the first few pages)
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demon102
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 09/20/06
Posts: 3275
Loc: magically delicious
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Quote:
that is nuts.... what was absolute's response if any?
too long to read... cliff notes sums it up well (at least the first few pages)
someone sent a link of one of these posts to ap and they just denied that anyone was cheating
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TheWorstPlayer
HoldEmKillah
Reged: 12/08/04
Posts: 19943
Loc: No longer losing money bluffin...
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if he could see cards, why would he play 90/80 bla bla chow meow
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Grimstarr
hacked
Reged: 08/09/05
Posts: 10594
Loc: browsing BBV
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bla bla chow meow
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Hiiiiiiii
addict
Reged: 04/03/07
Posts: 524
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I knew I was actually a winning player but was being cheated this whole time!
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DarkMagus
enthusiast
Reged: 07/10/07
Posts: 213
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Quote:
if he could see cards, why would he play 90/80 bla bla chow meow
Cause he's bad
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DesertCat
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 08/22/04
Posts: 4236
Loc: Pwned by A-Rod
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Quote:
if he could see cards, why would he play 90/80 bla bla chow meow
Because it would make you the best post-flop player in history?
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RichardHurtz
journeyman
Reged: 07/02/07
Posts: 98
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There will be no response is my guess. If they fix the problem and admit to a problem in the first place then you have a bigger problem.
If I were them I would try to sweep it under the rug...
This might kill online poker.
We need to either end online poker or regulate it.
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SmackinYaUp
**
Reged: 12/23/04
Posts: 629
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We don't need to end [censored].
I wonder if that guy is nervous about any possible recourse against him...He seemed to not care if everyone knows but he has stolen a lot of money in front of a lot of witnesses.
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RichardHurtz
journeyman
Reged: 07/02/07
Posts: 98
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""also fyi, this is (obv) an HSNL/limit issue at this time and no one playing below 100/200 needs to worry. ""
I had to laugh at this. Yes its obv. that there is only one person that can see hole cards and he/she is only doing it at 100/200 and above....
Again, why is it obvious?
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MicroBob
Johnny Chan Spotter
Reged: 09/19/03
Posts: 29344
Loc: The cat is back by popular dem...
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agreed. if one person is doing it playing 88VP or whatever at 100/200 then why would it be so impossible for someone else to do something similar at 15/30 but do it more intelligently by playing more normally so as not to be so easily detected.
Someone out there could actually be smart enough to realize that by NOT playing perfectly, playing 25VP or something more normal and even occasionally losing a hand including calling-down with the worst hand just for show then they could continue to fleece this thing forever possibly without being detected.
I hate to give these tips for some idiot out there who might be reading. But it's true and it should be totally obvious and it's possible somebody is out there doing something like this already.
IF it is true that somebody at 100/200 can see hole-cards then there is zero reason to trust the other stakes on that site AT ALL.
Although I think I would be more comfortable playing 1/2 or 2/4 limit on there. Anybody who could see the hole-cards would almost have to be playing higher than that I would think.
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pokergrader
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 04/05/05
Posts: 3792
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I am not a person who panics or is paranoid at all... But if I knew it was possible for anybody playing to see other people's hole cards illegally, I would never play another hand on that site.
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inyourface
addict
Reged: 09/01/07
Posts: 480
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lol@2p2 being the 'face' of the online poker police
people have been saying this for years and Im pretty sure they ust got abuse thrown at them
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rakemeplz
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/14/06
Posts: 1803
Loc: +ev grimmstar bux vs everyone
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Quote:
Quote:
that is nuts.... what was absolute's response if any?
too long to read... cliff notes sums it up well (at least the first few pages)
someone sent a link of one of these posts to ap and they just denied that anyone was cheating
This is an obvious and predictable initial reaction, IMO it will be interesing to see how they respond to the alleged cheating in their games.
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1968
veteran
Reged: 11/23/06
Posts: 1399
Loc: Big in Japan
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If you picked up a 'super user account' would you play 96/70? seriously, how stupid do people get? The hands that I have seen are so blatantly obvious..
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IronFly
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 11/17/04
Posts: 2026
Loc: it's hard out here for a pimp
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is this for real? link to comment by absolute?
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rafiki
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 01/09/06
Posts: 3037
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I don't play anywhere close to those limits, but what I've read on here has really lead me to believe it to be true. A lot of very smart and observant poker players are actually agreeing with this theory.
I have a theory about why they would play 90/70 though. If you killed everyone playing 25/18, you may have a really tough time getting people to want to sit with you. But at 90/70 they figure "we play like fish, and they'll always want to get into a game with us". Just looks like they aren't doing it too well (in terms of making it believable).
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ImsaKidd
CHOOO CHOO
Reged: 08/25/05
Posts: 11074
Loc: CHOO CHOO
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Quote:
If you picked up a 'super user account' would you play 96/70? seriously, how stupid do people get? The hands that I have seen are so blatantly obvious..
I guess its good they werent smart about it, so they didnt win any more $$.
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rafiki
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 01/09/06
Posts: 3037
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Quote:
Quote:
If you picked up a 'super user account' would you play 96/70? seriously, how stupid do people get? The hands that I have seen are so blatantly obvious..
I guess its good they werent smart about it, so they didnt win any more $$.
Ya but nothing stops them from making 2-3 new accounts that may be smarter this time. You can basically never trust the site again...
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stompin
member
Reged: 07/22/06
Posts: 127
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I think a sticky should be made on every poker related forum....at least until there is a suitable response from AP.
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daryn
Hit and run artist
Reged: 04/24/03
Posts: 18335
Loc: Boston
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i honestly can't get over how many people actually believe there are super accounts
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rafiki
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 01/09/06
Posts: 3037
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Quote:
i honestly can't get over how many people actually believe there are super accounts
Oh I know for a fact that other sites have used them. I'm not going to name names, but in the boom there were online casinos with poker sites that for sure used them. At the conferences in vegas when the 24 year old kids from those places would get 2 bottles of goose in them, you'd hear the stories. I just never thought any of the big players would still be doing it. But I promise you this idea of a person who can see the cards is not some fantasy.
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Schneids
3 BB/100
Reged: 09/08/03
Posts: 6483
Loc: Blogging live from MN!
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Quote:
i honestly can't get over how many people actually believe there are super accounts
In that case I'll trade you my AP money for some Stars or FTP money.
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daryn
Hit and run artist
Reged: 04/24/03
Posts: 18335
Loc: Boston
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Quote:
Quote:
i honestly can't get over how many people actually believe there are super accounts
In that case I'll trade you my AP money for some Stars or FTP money.
i can't win on any site why would i play poker
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Schneids
3 BB/100
Reged: 09/08/03
Posts: 6483
Loc: Blogging live from MN!
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
i honestly can't get over how many people actually believe there are super accounts
In that case I'll trade you my AP money for some Stars or FTP money.
i can't win on any site why would i play poker
The games will be good, most of the biggest winners on AP are all quitting the site, even with the fact they've won money on it. You'll have a good shot.
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traxamillion
banned
Reged: 03/14/07
Posts: 471
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I don't think it is so much that the potripper/graycat/doubledrag accounts themselves have always been superaccounts from AB with the ability to see holecards. These accounts have been huge losers in the past.
Could have been accounts AB ppl used to chipdump and also keep high stakes players happy. Employees dump AB revenue into these accounts and dump off to 3rd party personal accounts.
Someone proposed that it is more likely that there is an account that can observe and see all of the holecards but cannot play. This used in conjunction with the doubledrag accounts would make sense but why the blatant abuse directly after an update? It is possible that the update created the rabbit cam it might be coincidence. The behavior exhibited by these accounts is pretty much what I would expect from some introverted support/tech nerd with no common sense and a very basic understanding of poker. He gets caught then tries to emulate his play style but in a losing fashion much like an amateur theif will try to cover up a crime. This really looks like an inside job or rogue employee(s) gone wrong but AB will have to come forward for anything definitive.
The reason I don't think it could be a hacker/trojan is that the accounts clearly had large amounts of money before the update. Some rich whale who donks around wouldn't be hacking computers most likely. A bot maker who went into hacking AB might have the capital to fund the accounts but would have a good enough understanding of poker not to just blow it. A hacker smart enough to crack the site might blow it due to a misunderstanding of the game but the chances of this seem very low because its almost common sense to milk something like this.
One thing that is for sure though is that these 3 accounts could see holecards, they took full advantage for as long as they could, they then dumped the money.
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RikaKazak
#1 Real Estate Baller
Reged: 07/31/05
Posts: 5535
Loc: Absolute Poker:hacker's paradi...
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interesting stuff......
I haven't read much but I'll have to once I get back from my meeting.
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burthoovis
newbie
Reged: 08/17/05
Posts: 26
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i haven't seen this posted anywhere else so...
From thepokerdb.com
MTT results for Greytcat
9 MTT sat tourneys entered 2 wins
MTT results for Pottripper
4 MTTs entered 1 win for $30,000
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traxamillion
banned
Reged: 03/14/07
Posts: 471
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online poker is shades
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warrantofice
addict
Reged: 07/26/07
Posts: 463
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Why just the hole cards? Why not see the hole flop? Are each card randomly choosen for the flop then turn then river? Why couldn't they see everthing?
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e_phemeral
enthusiast
Reged: 02/22/06
Posts: 306
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Bump. Why is this, and the numerous other threads in the different forums on the same subject, not getting more attention? The mods at 2+2 are making serious posts about cheating at Absolute Poker. This is serious sh*t.
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daryn
Hit and run artist
Reged: 04/24/03
Posts: 18335
Loc: Boston
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
i honestly can't get over how many people actually believe there are super accounts
In that case I'll trade you my AP money for some Stars or FTP money.
i can't win on any site why would i play poker
The games will be good, most of the biggest winners on AP are all quitting the site, even with the fact they've won money on it. You'll have a good shot.
playing in good games hasn't done much for me this year
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rafiki
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 01/09/06
Posts: 3037
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Quote:
Bump. Why is this, and the numerous other threads in the different forums on the same subject, not getting more attention? The mods at 2+2 are making serious posts about cheating at Absolute Poker. This is serious sh*t.
QFT
I think the hope is that people just leave Absolute, and rely on more reputable sites from now on.
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Super Tool
newbie
Reged: 08/31/07
Posts: 49
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Quote:
Bump. Why is this, and the numerous other threads in the different forums on the same subject, not getting more attention? The mods at 2+2 are making serious posts about cheating at Absolute Poker. This is serious sh*t.
Because everyone in the past who brought up allegations of cheating/foul play in online poker, has always been shot down, shunned, and mocked by any poker forum... Why is this one any different?
Nothing will be done about it either way... We'll all forget this happened and go on playing on sites we ASSUME are safer, but are probably doing the same things...
Where are the tin foil hat pictures btw?
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burningyen
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 06/27/04
Posts: 2324
Loc: avoiding practice
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Quote:
Quote:
Bump. Why is this, and the numerous other threads in the different forums on the same subject, not getting more attention? The mods at 2+2 are making serious posts about cheating at Absolute Poker. This is serious sh*t.
Because everyone in the past who brought up allegations of cheating/foul play in online poker, has always been shot down, shunned, and mocked by any poker forum... Why is this one any different?
Because this time the people making these claims actually have a brain.
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traxamillion
banned
Reged: 03/14/07
Posts: 471
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What phazes me is that I have honestly always believed that online poker was legit. Now I know it has been compromised. I would like to believe that this was an isolated incident at AP involving a breach in security but we are likely never to know. At this point I will obviously keep playin online poker as will most people. However, for people coming into this game in the future if they hear this story I can almost guarantee they will not get involved. For all the fish that say "it's rigged" they don't really know its rigged or truly believe that but it is their scapegoat for losing. Now they can be 100% sure and that may keep them out of games.
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e_phemeral
enthusiast
Reged: 02/22/06
Posts: 306
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I think the only solution is for everyone to leave Absolute. Given that all of these sites are all offshore with no regulatory oversight, the only way for players to ensure that the games are legit is to monitor this sort of thing collectively themselves and move $ off of sites that have recognized security breaches and do nothing about it. The worst outcome is for nothing to come of this - smarter cheaters who may have the access to the same breaches as these cheaters will just continue to cheat, but will do it smartly so it is not as obvious. If people do not have faith in the legitimacy of the games, they will take their money to the live casinos instead.
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GaelleLynd
journeyman
Reged: 01/15/07
Posts: 53
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Hopefully this doesn't affect Ultimate Bet.
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Papi Shasho
newbie
Reged: 07/04/07
Posts: 38
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Quote:
Why just the hole cards? Why not see the hole flop? Are each card randomly choosen for the flop then turn then river? Why couldn't they see everthing?
I'm assuming because there's an RNG, so they can only see the cards that have been dealt.
Being able to see the turn and river ahead of time would be the equivalent to the cheaters knowing what cards their opponents will get dealt NEXT hand.
The cards ARE dealt randomly, including the pocket cards, flop, turn, and river, but the cheaters can also see the ones they aren't supposed to see (pocket cards).
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GiantWalleye
old hand
Reged: 12/22/06
Posts: 884
Loc: Up Nort, shooting at ducks
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I have been playing on AP since 2004. I have had some nasty and rediculous things happen to me in the cash games, though I have no way of knowing if it was directly related to this. Either way I just cashed out all of my money off of AP and unless I hear some positive things that this is taken care of, I will never deposit on there again. Time to go back to where I started. Stars here I come.
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sprfcta
journeyman
Reged: 10/26/04
Posts: 70
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Question: Why is he playing 90-80 (or whatever)?
Don't know how many of you have heard about the fix-6 scandal in horseracing a few years back. One insider who worked in the computer room for a tote company and a couple of his buddies took down a 4.5 mil. pick-6 wager by shenanigans.
The only reason they got caught was because they knew next to nothing about betting on horses, and made a bet that no knowledgeable horseplayer would have ever made. Had they known what they were doing, they might still be cashing tickets today.
The point is, this may be the situation here. Someone with access to a "superuser" account, with no real poker skills. No proficient cheater would kill the goose laying the golden eggs.
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jman220
Please to be Mod?
Reged: 05/12/05
Posts: 7160
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Quote:
Quote:
Bump. Why is this, and the numerous other threads in the different forums on the same subject, not getting more attention? The mods at 2+2 are making serious posts about cheating at Absolute Poker. This is serious sh*t.
Because everyone in the past who brought up allegations of cheating/foul play in online poker, has always been shot down, shunned, and mocked by any poker forum... Why is this one any different?
Nothing will be done about it either way... We'll all forget this happened and go on playing on sites we ASSUME are safer, but are probably doing the same things...
Where are the tin foil hat pictures btw?
[x] First poker is rigged post with actual statistics and evidence to back up the claims, rather than anecdotal stories.
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baronzeus
Stanford Welshing Pigeon
Reged: 05/12/05
Posts: 8899
Loc: Trying to play my HULA match
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if i had a way of seeing opponents cards on say, pokerstars, i could make a million in one or 2 months and still never ever ever get caught.
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Botchman
Banned
Reged: 05/27/06
Posts: 645
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Bump. Why is this, and the numerous other threads in the different forums on the same subject, not getting more attention? The mods at 2+2 are making serious posts about cheating at Absolute Poker. This is serious sh*t.
Because everyone in the past who brought up allegations of cheating/foul play in online poker, has always been shot down, shunned, and mocked by any poker forum... Why is this one any different?
Because this time the people making these claims actually have a brain.
Yes if your name is not green youu don't have a brain. Dont you know this???
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Rottersod
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 07/19/05
Posts: 3154
Loc: Where I Want To Be
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Quote:
if i had a way of seeing opponents cards on say, pokerstars, i could make a million in one or 2 months and still never ever ever get caught.
It's not so easy to not get caught. Hand histories are available when it goes to showdown and if you never go to showdown but win all the time then your pokerstats will show some unusual patterns that will be picked up by other players. Seeing a showdown without the nuts but with a dominant hand always leaves you open to a suck out that can cost you some serious cash as you play higher stakes. You'd have to be able to track all the folded hands to know what cards were in play and even then you'd never be 100% sure that your opps outs were really dead unless all those cards were folded and not waiting to be dealt. Any fool can win quickly and big seeing everyone's cards but it takes someone with a lot of patience and skill to make the long-term score and stay UTR, knowing that at any time the kill-switch could be thrown.
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traxamillion
banned
Reged: 03/14/07
Posts: 471
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I think the obvious thing to do would be to use it only once every x number of hands for x number of hands in an irregular pattern. Would be easier than wallhacking in counter-strike.
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ur2barredout
journeyman
Reged: 06/20/07
Posts: 89
Loc: 305
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Dear Mr. Blind Sheep
Thank you for contacting us.
Yes we are aware of all this posts, we always try to be aware of what our customers think of our service and if they enjoy playing with us. That’s why we are always checking into all of the concerns that our players have and we have taken actions already in this case, because of our company policies we cant let you know what those actions are, but we can let you know, that it wasn’t any type of hacking, it was just someone who didn’t know how to play poker and a hole lot of luck.
If there is anything else we can assist you with please let us know.
Sincerely,
Jonathan
Team Absolute ~ Security & Control Department
So apparently the security team will take action if you suck at poker.....
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Hotel Detect
enthusiast
Reged: 09/09/04
Posts: 282
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Quote:
Quote:
if i had a way of seeing opponents cards on say, pokerstars, i could make a million in one or 2 months and still never ever ever get caught.
It's not so easy to not get caught. Hand histories are available when it goes to showdown and if you never go to showdown but win all the time then your pokerstats will show some unusual patterns that will be picked up by other players. Seeing a showdown without the nuts but with a dominant hand always leaves you open to a suck out that can cost you some serious cash as you play higher stakes. You'd have to be able to track all the folded hands to know what cards were in play and even then you'd never be 100% sure that your opps outs were really dead unless all those cards were folded and not waiting to be dealt. Any fool can win quickly and big seeing everyone's cards but it takes someone with a lot of patience and skill to make the long-term score and stay UTR, knowing that at any time the kill-switch could be thrown.
Give me a break, any decent mid level player could easily pull this off if they KNOW THE HOLE CARDS of every opponent lol. It allows you to play straight forward and still have a huge edge by knowing when you have them notched slightly and when u are slightly notched. With the patience that any winning mid stakes player already has this would be easily accomplished utr.
PT will just show you as a cash game beast.. Do not forget that you get to analyze ur own stats and keep things in check.
Granted maybe not a few mil in a matter of months, but definitely several million over the course of the year.
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Cruzincat
enthusiast
Reged: 05/31/04
Posts: 200
Loc: Maryland
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Quote:
The reason I don't think it could be a hacker/trojan is that the accounts clearly had large amounts of money before the update. Some rich whale who donks around wouldn't be hacking computers most likely. A bot maker who went into hacking AB might have the capital to fund the accounts but would have a good enough understanding of poker not to just blow it. A hacker smart enough to crack the site might blow it due to a misunderstanding of the game but the chances of this seem very low because its almost common sense to milk something like this.
More likely they started with a minimum BR and built it up in the lower stakes games using the same method. They didn't get caught there because they were playing the lower stakes and nobody was using Pokertracker there.
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Rottersod
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 07/19/05
Posts: 3154
Loc: Where I Want To Be
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
if i had a way of seeing opponents cards on say, pokerstars, i could make a million in one or 2 months and still never ever ever get caught.
It's not so easy to not get caught. Hand histories are available when it goes to showdown and if you never go to showdown but win all the time then your pokerstats will show some unusual patterns that will be picked up by other players. Seeing a showdown without the nuts but with a dominant hand always leaves you open to a suck out that can cost you some serious cash as you play higher stakes. You'd have to be able to track all the folded hands to know what cards were in play and even then you'd never be 100% sure that your opps outs were really dead unless all those cards were folded and not waiting to be dealt. Any fool can win quickly and big seeing everyone's cards but it takes someone with a lot of patience and skill to make the long-term score and stay UTR, knowing that at any time the kill-switch could be thrown.
Give me a break, any decent mid level player could easily pull this off if they KNOW THE HOLE CARDS of every opponent lol. It allows you to play straight forward and still have a huge edge by knowing when you have them notched slightly and when u are slightly notched. With the patience that any winning mid stakes player already has this would be easily accomplished utr.
PT will just show you as a cash game beast.. Do not forget that you get to analyze ur own stats and keep things in check.
Granted maybe not a few mil in a matter of months, but definitely several million over the course of the year.
So thank you for agreeing with everything I wrote in response to the poster who said he could do it it a couple of months. What was the point of your reply???
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mikechops
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 08/11/05
Posts: 2168
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Quote:
Quote:
if i had a way of seeing opponents cards on say, pokerstars, i could make a million in one or 2 months and still never ever ever get caught.
It's not so easy to not get caught. Hand histories are available when it goes to showdown and if you never go to showdown but win all the time then your pokerstats will show some unusual patterns that will be picked up by other players. Seeing a showdown without the nuts but with a dominant hand always leaves you open to a suck out that can cost you some serious cash as you play higher stakes. You'd have to be able to track all the folded hands to know what cards were in play and even then you'd never be 100% sure that your opps outs were really dead unless all those cards were folded and not waiting to be dealt. Any fool can win quickly and big seeing everyone's cards but it takes someone with a lot of patience and skill to make the long-term score and stay UTR, knowing that at any time the kill-switch could be thrown.
Not getting caught would start with not calling down big bets with 10-high - even if it is good. If you only call with A-high or better, then it is really difficult for someone to say for sure that you know their cards. You could just be inside their heads, or getting lucky picking off bluffs.
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stockman000
banned
Reged: 09/19/07
Posts: 5
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Is anyone really surprised by this Absolute thing, Ive been playing cash games professionally for years & I can definately tell you that games online are cheated, not just absolute, all sites cheat, Its not just the players, its the sites themselves. There is heavy rampant stealing going on at all of these major sites, this is just a start of whats to come. Why do you think guys like me that have been playing for years & have over 80% win rate live cant win a hand online, I used to be one of the biggest cash players online, you will win for a while, then its over. I get sick of explaining this to players who have only played for a year or so. Online poker is nothing more than video game poker run by offshore crooks. It boils my blood that anyone would endorse such garbage as real poker.
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ZOMG_RIGGED!
veteran
Reged: 08/17/07
Posts: 1268
Loc: Does this smell like Chlorofor...
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you sir, are a moron
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peatr999
enthusiast
Reged: 06/03/06
Posts: 212
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Quote:
Is anyone really surprised by this Absolute thing, Ive been playing cash games professionally for years & I can definately tell you that games online are cheated, not just absolute, all sites cheat, Its not just the players, its the sites themselves. There is heavy rampant stealing going on at all of these major sites, this is just a start of whats to come. Why do you think guys like me that have been playing for years & have over 80% win rate live cant win a hand online, I used to be one of the biggest cash players online, you will win for a while, then its over. I get sick of explaining this to players who have only played for a year or so. Online poker is nothing more than video game poker run by offshore crooks. It boils my blood that anyone would endorse such garbage as real poker.
someone didn't take their medication today...
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Cancuk
veteran
Reged: 05/25/05
Posts: 1254
Loc: Keeping it real
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Quote:
Is anyone really surprised by this Absolute thing, Ive been playing cash games professionally for years & I can definately tell you that games online are cheated, not just absolute, all sites cheat, Its not just the players, its the sites themselves. There is heavy rampant stealing going on at all of these major sites, this is just a start of whats to come. Why do you think guys like me that have been playing for years & have over 80% win rate live cant win a hand online, I used to be one of the biggest cash players online, you will win for a while, then its over. I get sick of explaining this to players who have only played for a year or so. Online poker is nothing more than video game poker run by offshore crooks. It boils my blood that anyone would endorse such garbage as real poker.
This is why "poker is rigged" posts always got flamed.
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Rottersod
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 07/19/05
Posts: 3154
Loc: Where I Want To Be
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Quote:
Is anyone really surprised by this Absolute thing, Ive been playing cash games professionally for years & I can definately tell you that games online are cheated, not just absolute, all sites cheat, Its not just the players, its the sites themselves. There is heavy rampant stealing going on at all of these major sites, this is just a start of whats to come. Why do you think guys like me that have been playing for years & have over 80% win rate live cant win a hand online, I used to be one of the biggest cash players online, you will win for a while, then its over. I get sick of explaining this to players who have only played for a year or so. Online poker is nothing more than video game poker run by offshore crooks. It boils my blood that anyone would endorse such garbage as real poker.
I'd take this whole thing more seriously if it wasn't JMan who cross posted this.
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rafiki
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 01/09/06
Posts: 3037
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Quote:
you sir, are a moron
QFT*2
This lies somewhere between tinfoil hat and the truth. It's sad because when it gets this conspiracy nutty, it ruins an otherwise pretty decent thread.
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Dilznoofus
old hand
Reged: 05/25/06
Posts: 919
Loc: Southern IL
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Quote:
Quote:
Is anyone really surprised by this Absolute thing, Ive been playing cash games professionally for years & I can definately tell you that games online are cheated, not just absolute, all sites cheat, Its not just the players, its the sites themselves. There is heavy rampant stealing going on at all of these major sites, this is just a start of whats to come. Why do you think guys like me that have been playing for years & have over 80% win rate live cant win a hand online, I used to be one of the biggest cash players online, you will win for a while, then its over. I get sick of explaining this to players who have only played for a year or so. Online poker is nothing more than video game poker run by offshore crooks. It boils my blood that anyone would endorse such garbage as real poker.
I'd take this whole thing more seriously if it wasn't JMan who cross posted this.
I hope you're just making a dig at Jman. If you actually doubt that cheating took place at AP then you either haven't read the evidence or you are not very smart.
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rafiki
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 01/09/06
Posts: 3037
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agreed. The idea that people are just playing "bad" when calling huge all ins with T high is insane. Because the exact same players are making much less obvious laydowns on the flop, for much less money. Shady shady.
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ikestoys
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 11/06/06
Posts: 5642
Loc: I'm not folding, stop bluffing
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Better summary:
For those of you who don't know me, I'm a 21 year old online poker player that has experienced a lot of success at Absolute Poker for the last year, making well into 6 figures, starting from 50 dollars. I did this not through luck, but hard work and determination to make myself a better player. Although I'm by no means the best online poker player in the world, there is no doubt that I'm in the top 1% of players online.
On a fateful night in August, I found what looked liked to be an extremely good game on Absolute. The player DOUBLEDRAG was playing almost every single hand he got preflop, a typical good player plays 20-25% of their hands. I play extremely loose, sometimes playing up to 40% of my hands. The problem with playing nearly 100% of your hands is that most of the time, someone is going to be starting with a better hand than you, so unless you catch better cards than your opponents or force them to fold, you will end up losing money. I can get away with sometimes playing 40% of my hands because I'm an extremely good postflop player, but I still end up losing some hands. DOUBLEDRAG literally never called a river bet when he had the worst hand. I was frustrated, but I thought he was getting extremely lucky and I'd break him later.
About two weeks later, in a tournament, the player POTRIPPER won a 1k buy-in tournament event on this hand:
Stage #896976330 Tourney ID 1883389 Holdem Multi Normal Tournament No Limit $4500 - 2007-09-13 01:43:49 (ET)
Table: 14 (Real Money) Seat #3 is the dealer
Seat 3 - POTRIPPER ($765740 in chips)
Seat 8 - CRAZYMARCO ($214260 in chips)
POTRIPPER - Ante $450
CRAZYMARCO - Ante $450
POTRIPPER - Posts small blind $2250
CRAZYMARCO - Posts big blind $4500
*** POCKET CARDS ***
POTRIPPER - Calls $2250
CRAZYMARCO - Checks
*** FLOP *** [4h Kd Kh]
CRAZYMARCO - Checks
POTRIPPER - Bets $9000
CRAZYMARCO - Calls $9000
*** TURN *** [4h Kd Kh] [7s]
CRAZYMARCO - Checks
POTRIPPER - Bets $13500
CRAZYMARCO - All-In(Raise) $200310 to $200310
POTRIPPER - Calls $186810
*** RIVER *** [4h Kd Kh 7s] [5s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
POTRIPPER - Shows [10c 9c] (One pair, kings)
CRAZYMARCO - Shows [9h 2h] (One pair, kings)
POTRIPPER Collects $428520 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($428520)
Board [4h Kd Kh 7s 5s]
Seat 3: POTRIPPER (dealer) (small blind) won Total ($428520) HI:($428520) with One pair, kings(ten kicker) [10c 9c - B:Kh,B:Kd,P:10c,P:9c,B:7s]
Seat 8: CRAZYMARCO (big blind) HI:lost with One pair, kings [9h 2h - B:Kh,B:Kd,P:9h,B:7s,B:5s]
So what does that hand mean? It means that this player made a call with absolutely no hand and just happened to be right. Now, I'm all for fish getting lucky once in awhile, but this hand sparked more investigation, and what was found was truly disturbing. Hand histories from the tournament from multiple players were gathered and analyzed. It was found that POTRIPPER played exactly like DOUBLEDRAG. The only times POTRIPPER folded preflop was when someone else had AA, KK or QQ. POTRIPPER also never called a river bet when he was beat.
When the news of POTRIPPER came out, I immediately thought of DOUBLEDRAG and submitted my hand histories of that session to some of my peers who are the best players I know. It was obvious to everyone that DOUBLEDRAG knew what there opponents cards were. They all concluded that it was the only explanation for both players playing nearly all their hands, except when someone hand a monster preflop. They all concluded it was the only explanation for the fact they never called a river bet when they were beat, as this is extremely unlikely when you are playing so many hands.
So what is happening in response to this? Absolute Poker claims that it is investigating the matter, but many people do not trust the site to admit that someone was able to cheat on this magnitude, as it would hurt their business severely. The only way to make sure that Absolute handles this situation promptly and fairly is to escalate this story in the poker media and to keep harassing Absolute's security and customer service department. You may not have been cheated out of any money, but a strike this deep into online poker's integrity is bad for everyone and needs to be dealt with promptly.
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gaijinuronin
newbie
Reged: 01/26/07
Posts: 42
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I think i've also posted in this forum(Software section) statistical evidence about the games being rigged at smaller stakes.
Unfortunatly people were not interesting in double-checking my theory/evidence
I could post a link to it ...but probably i will be banned because it is not about absoulute.
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pnazari
addict
Reged: 01/11/07
Posts: 550
Loc: Toronto
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would the possibility that this is happening on stars/FT/UB be >0?
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ibluffoldladies
addict
Reged: 02/04/07
Posts: 671
Loc: 3-betting your grandmother
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Quote:
would the possibility that this is happening on stars/FT/UB be >0?
You wouldn't be stretching reality to assume this.
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pnazari
addict
Reged: 01/11/07
Posts: 550
Loc: Toronto
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Quote:
Quote:
would the possibility that this is happening on stars/FT/UB be >0?
You wouldn't be stretching reality to assume this.
then online poker has been compromised and this could be the beginning of the end.
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TheDna
member
Reged: 06/25/06
Posts: 106
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This is scary and disturbing. Really tend to say lol bots lol rigged never ever believed any rigged storrys for a second. But the evidence is just very hard to denie here.
I had several phone calls of an AP guy some weeks ago with special VIP offers so i play at the site again, i just wish i had seen this before and face him with some questions. I m just happy i didnt start up at AP again..
I really hope LOTS of ppl read this and email/phone AP with so this will be solved.. keep us up to date pls, thx.
Edited by TheDna (09/19/07 08:28 PM)
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Shovaments
stranger
Reged: 08/25/07
Posts: 15
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I hope more comes of this story instead of it getting pushed under the rug. If there is legitimacy, and it seems like there is, hopefully a source like Card Player or a major news source gets on the story and digs deeper. The hands speak volumes though, wow.
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The Sower
newbie
Reged: 06/04/07
Posts: 25
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Quote:
I hope more comes of this story instead of it getting pushed under the rug. If there is legitimacy, and it seems like there is, hopefully a source like Card Player or a major news source gets on the story and digs deeper. The hands speak volumes though, wow.
Poker media is far too busy following the careers of such superstars as Chad Brown and Vanessa Rousseau to worry themselves with such trivial matters.
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todd1007
member
Reged: 05/18/07
Posts: 160
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Quote:
Question: Why is he playing 90-80 (or whatever)?
Don't know how many of you have heard about the fix-6 scandal in horseracing a few years back. One insider who worked in the computer room for a tote company and a couple of his buddies took down a 4.5 mil. pick-6 wager by shenanigans.
The only reason they got caught was because they knew next to nothing about betting on horses, and made a bet that no knowledgeable horseplayer would have ever made. Had they known what they were doing, they might still be cashing tickets today.
The point is, this may be the situation here. Someone with access to a "superuser" account, with no real poker skills. No proficient cheater would kill the goose laying the golden eggs.
you know nothing about horseracing. they would have got away with it had there not been two bombs that won the last two races at arlington. that is why they got busted. besides that, horseracing is rife is corruption and just about every level in every country. why do you think that the sha-tin (hong kong) jockey colony is always under investigation for race fixing? have you ever talked to an ex-jockey? cheating in horseracing is much worse.
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6471849653
addict
Reged: 10/05/04
Posts: 471
Loc: Finland
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a few hundred hands, jesus, even cows can fly during that time.
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ematz
enthusiast
Reged: 09/12/06
Posts: 305
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It made the Freakonomics blog
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rafiki
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 01/09/06
Posts: 3037
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Quote:
It made the Freakonomics blog
lol about the person asking about psychic people
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TomVeil
enthusiast
Reged: 10/10/06
Posts: 314
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I've been thinking about this a lot since I heard of it a few hours ago. And I've got a theory, if you guys wanna hear it. If not, just skip this post, you'll probably save yourself some time *laugh*
So my biggest problem with the whole idea here is that the guy is so obviously stupid. Playing every hand, folding only when they have QQ, KK, AA? Things like this eventually are going to get noticed. Even an idiot would have to realize that playing this way would be a sure fire way to get caught......
So that led me to think, what kind of person would have this kind of ability, but be so damned stupid?
A) Hacker
B) Employee
C) Luckiest SOB in the world.
I discounted A, because it's been reported that multiple accounts had similar statistics. (And I think it's unlikely anyway). B seems the most probable, with perhaps a little of C thrown into the mix as well. So here's my theory:
Employee notices a breach in security that allows "superpass" access, where you can see hole cards. He doesn't know how long it will last, or if it will be caught. Thus, he gives this access to an arbitrary number of new accounts (Let's say 10). People which he has no connection to at all. He also gives this access to one of his friends who's been playing on the site for a while and does well normally.
Now if you're signing up for a poker site, what would your reaction be if you could see hole cards? Would you play just a little over your head and fold/call only the tough decisions? Or would you go for broke right away because you don't know how long it will last? I'm sure that some people would get greedy and try to smash and grab, because they don't know when it's going to stop. (This explains the OBVIOUS chip-dumping and too-perfect play)
Meanwhile, employee's friend is playing the same exact poker that he was playing, only every REALLY tough decision, he's making the right play. I'm not talking every showdown, or every hand. I'm talking AA on a 484 board when your opponent shoves. Does he have 9s? Or 8s? We've all had those hands. IMAGINE IF YOU WON EVERY ONE.
Now, eventually either it's going to get caught by the system, or you're going to hear about it on the net. If it's the former, they will most likely chalk it up to a bug for new accounts, while going after the money that they can recover. If it's the latter, you'll see rumors on places like this. As soon as either happens, take your friend's access away. He keeps playing the same exact style he always has, but without the help. Looks from a statistical point of view as just a good heater, right?
So while the powers that be are out looking for the idiots who played the way that the smash and grabbers did, very quietly your friend made you BOTH a lot of money.
I just can't believe that somebody who's "in" on the deal would play so badly, EVEN IF THEY DIDN'T KNOW HOW LONG THE SCAM WOULD GO. Seriously, if you had a 3 hour window where you could see hole cards, would ANY of you AT ALL play this obviously? It takes a special kind of stupid.....
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Max Raker
old hand
Reged: 04/12/05
Posts: 708
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Quote:
I've been thinking about this a lot since I heard of it a few hours ago. And I've got a theory, if you guys wanna hear it. If not, just skip this post, you'll probably save yourself some time *laugh*
So my biggest problem with the whole idea here is that the guy is so obviously stupid. Playing every hand, folding only when they have QQ, KK, AA? Things like this eventually are going to get noticed. Even an idiot would have to realize that playing this way would be a sure fire way to get caught......
So that led me to think, what kind of person would have this kind of ability, but be so damned stupid?
A) Hacker
B) Employee
C) Luckiest SOB in the world.
I discounted A, because it's been reported that multiple accounts had similar statistics. (And I think it's unlikely anyway). B seems the most probable, with perhaps a little of C thrown into the mix as well. So here's my theory:
Employee notices a breach in security that allows "superpass" access, where you can see hole cards. He doesn't know how long it will last, or if it will be caught. Thus, he gives this access to an arbitrary number of new accounts (Let's say 10). People which he has no connection to at all. He also gives this access to one of his friends who's been playing on the site for a while and does well normally.
Now if you're signing up for a poker site, what would your reaction be if you could see hole cards? Would you play just a little over your head and fold/call only the tough decisions? Or would you go for broke right away because you don't know how long it will last? I'm sure that some people would get greedy and try to smash and grab, because they don't know when it's going to stop. (This explains the OBVIOUS chip-dumping and too-perfect play)
Meanwhile, employee's friend is playing the same exact poker that he was playing, only every REALLY tough decision, he's making the right play. I'm not talking every showdown, or every hand. I'm talking AA on a 484 board when your opponent shoves. Does he have 9s? Or 8s? We've all had those hands. IMAGINE IF YOU WON EVERY ONE.
Now, eventually either it's going to get caught by the system, or you're going to hear about it on the net. If it's the former, they will most likely chalk it up to a bug for new accounts, while going after the money that they can recover. If it's the latter, you'll see rumors on places like this. As soon as either happens, take your friend's access away. He keeps playing the same exact style he always has, but without the help. Looks from a statistical point of view as just a good heater, right?
So while the powers that be are out looking for the idiots who played the way that the smash and grabbers did, very quietly your friend made you BOTH a lot of money.
I just can't believe that somebody who's "in" on the deal would play so badly, EVEN IF THEY DIDN'T KNOW HOW LONG THE SCAM WOULD GO. Seriously, if you had a 3 hour window where you could see hole cards, would ANY of you AT ALL play this obviously? It takes a special kind of stupid.....
Why would the hacker give the super accounts to random people? Maybe he wanted to make sure that they wouldn't be caught instantly somehow? Or to distance himself if the accounts did get caught? If there is a good reason for that then your theory seems reasonable. I never thought about how the accounts we saw could have been playing that way because they were unsure how long it would last. Good Post.
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TomVeil
enthusiast
Reged: 10/10/06
Posts: 314
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Quote:
Why would the hacker give the super accounts to random people? Maybe he wanted to make sure that they wouldn't be caught instantly somehow? Or to distance himself if the accounts did get caught? If there is a good reason for that then your theory seems reasonable. I never thought about how the accounts we saw could have been playing that way because they were unsure how long it would last. Good Post.
Exactly. If it's just one person, and they get caught right away, it'd be pretty easy to find a connection between that one account and you. By creating a false connection (new accounts on a certain day), you'd be setting up a pattern that your friend does not fit into. Also, you'd make it less likely that they would dive into "who knows who" the more people that are involved. If you're willing to rip off your company, it's not much of a stretch to figure that you wouldn't care if other people did too. Gotta throw off that trail.....
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ncpokeresq
journeyman
Reged: 05/08/04
Posts: 70
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I have seen that hand history posted several places, but to me it raises a serious question: Why would someone who could see the cards call as only a 3-1 favorite? Admittedly it was the other player all in, but why not simply let the hand go and get them all in when a bigger favorite?
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ZOMG_RIGGED!
veteran
Reged: 08/17/07
Posts: 1268
Loc: Does this smell like Chlorofor...
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Quote:
: Why would someone who could see the cards call as only a 3-1 favorite?
lol. you lose
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jman220
Please to be Mod?
Reged: 05/12/05
Posts: 7160
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Quote:
I have seen that hand history posted several places, but to me it raises a serious question: Why would someone who could see the cards call as only a 3-1 favorite? Admittedly it was the other player all in, but why not simply let the hand go and get them all in when a bigger favorite?
Lol?
With perfect information and a decent risk tolerance, you should be calling as a 51-49 favorite. (granted that doing that will probably expose you as a cheater, but still).
Edited by jman220 (09/21/07 10:43 PM)
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Chips Ahoy
member
Reged: 04/09/07
Posts: 105
Loc: Future home of the A's
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Quote:
Quote:
I have seen that hand history posted several places, but to me it raises a serious question: Why would someone who could see the cards call as only a 3-1 favorite? Admittedly it was the other player all in, but why not simply let the hand go and get them all in when a bigger favorite?
Lol?
With perfect information and a decent risk tolerance, you should be calling as a 51-49 favorite. (granted that doing that will probably expose you as a cheater, but still).
With perfect information and a bankroll, you should be calling as a 3-1 dog. You'll get it back soon enough anyways and you look far less suspicious.
We're trying to maximize $, not Sklansky bucks here.
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Scansion
addict
Reged: 09/15/05
Posts: 539
Loc: nosebleed or busto
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This is pretty bad. Hopefully other sites are going to be a bit more professional and secure than AP. Btw, diagf all you "this is the beginning of the end" people.
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THAY3R
"Thaymex"
Reged: 06/09/04
Posts: 9755
Loc: The Great White Hope
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Quote:
Quote:
I have seen that hand history posted several places, but to me it raises a serious question: Why would someone who could see the cards call as only a 3-1 favorite? Admittedly it was the other player all in, but why not simply let the hand go and get them all in when a bigger favorite?
Lol?
With perfect information and a decent risk tolerance, you should be calling as a 51-49 favorite. (granted that doing that will probably expose you as a cheater, but still).
Not in a tournament. If you had perfect information(hole cards) you could basically win the tournament without ever being all in.
I have tried this out many times on some poker game I can't remember the name of.
I would play out like a 5000 person WSOP Main Event structure where I could see hole cards and would never lose, just basically playing small ball and then making sick overbets for value.
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mertzo
veteran
Reged: 02/07/07
Posts: 1387
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If theese sorry suckers could exploit AP I bet there are atleast 10 smarter guys grinding out 5/10 staying credible and still make [censored] of money
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davidlong14
addict
Reged: 05/14/07
Posts: 578
Loc: Las Vegas, Nevada
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update? any word from AP?
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Two Plus Two 
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