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Limit Texas Hold'em >> High Stakes Limit

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | >> (show all)
fearme
addict


Reged: 09/29/04
Posts: 465
Loc: CA
high stakes absolute players
      #12075548 - 09/13/07 10:27 PM

steamroller, greycat, doubledrag,
win every day every session they play from talking to other high stakes players,
has anyone ever booked a winning session against them cuz i havent
anyway dont really play there these days because of what seems to be suspicious things on there

i also saw steamroller chip dumping to someone named supercard i think, steam would cap flop, turn, and river then fold for 1 or something like that, and i remember greycat saying he lost 50+k to supercard

ive never played with double drag but my friend told me ppl were very suspicous of his nl play and he ended up dumping 250k the next day to romaldo or something like that

Edited by fearme (09/13/07 10:32 PM)


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ALL1N
lobster


Reged: 05/10/03
Posts: 2013
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: fearme]
      #12075633 - 09/13/07 10:34 PM

Why does it worry you that some people would chipdump to others?

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fearme
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: ALL1N]
      #12075650 - 09/13/07 10:35 PM

im worried about more than chip dumping..

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Victor
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: fearme]
      #12075707 - 09/13/07 10:38 PM

so they win every session except the ones they chipdumb?

i think your strategy should be to find the sessions where they are chipdumping and join.


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ALL1N
lobster


Reged: 05/10/03
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: fearme]
      #12075730 - 09/13/07 10:40 PM

Actually I should take what you say more seriously. FWIW when I was playing against graycat it felt like he could see my hand - some ridiculous things happened. He limp/called preflop a decent amount, but limp/folded only twice. When I had KK and QQ. And no I didn't win. Ditto for doubledrag.

Haven't played steamroller HU but he was terrible/won heaps in 6max.


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ALL1N
lobster


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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: ALL1N]
      #12076001 - 09/13/07 11:02 PM

Does anyone datamine these games?

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fearme
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: ALL1N]
      #12076091 - 09/13/07 11:07 PM

did u play grey cat hu?

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DEAD ON IMPACT
newbie


Reged: 09/13/07
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: ALL1N]
      #12076177 - 09/13/07 11:13 PM

I have been playing on ap for years now and do play all the sites for the last few years, I play anywhere from 10-20nl to 100-200nl and play the 100-200lmt 200-400lmt on ap and ps. But i have watched and noticed all these players and can state that their play is consistent with one who could possibly see the cards. I have analyzed their play after seeing how they play everyhand and some how know when to fold make the perfect bluff and make the best value bet possible it is almost too perfect. I have 400 hands accumilated with steamroller and his showdown percentage of winning with me is 75%..isn't that unheard of? Doubledrag plays every hand and overbets pots when a player has nothing and i'm saying overbets as in 700$ pot and player checks and double will bet like 3k and players will consistenly fold. I watched double play agianst 2 quality opponents both sitting 10k buy ins at the 25 50 deep stack 10k buy in now at ap and he was at 22k and one player raised and he reraised preflop and the 2 other players called reraises making the pot about 700
(i apoligize for the weak show of the hand because i can't find it in hand history) flop came 2c4s4c and double raised 355 and first player to act called and second player reraised the pot to 2800....double then was to act and thought for awhile and went all in into both players and first player folded and second player thought and called with qk suited clubs and double had a9 offsuit turn came the club and double lost...This is one of many hands where he just pushed 14k into 2 players with ace high and when the player called he was actaully ahead at the time. If anyone would like anymore hands like this they can pm me, but he did also call an all in by me on the flop when he bet pre flop i called with 109d and i pushed 3k after flop with him betting out and i had flush draw with no pair 10 high and he called wiht k3 off and just king high. somehow making a call like that when he was actually ahead is mind boggling and that is where i find suspicion. Overall apparently doubledrag made a little over 300k in 8 days on ap and was told by a few players the last day he was seen playing how they had sucpicion of him cheating and he mocked them and 5 minutes later proceeded to sit out and has not played since that night. Well until today, i went to go to ap site and whenn i looked i saw doubledrag at the 25/50 nl where he dropped about 120k to a player named romaldo( by betting 9975 and then folding the all in) then went to the 5k sng hu and dumped another 100k or more sitting 4tables and just betting out like he did at the cash tables. To me it sounds very fishy and scary that it's possible that players could have an edge where you don't have a chance to win agianst them. I have played online poker for almost 4 yrs now and have never seen anything like these players shown above and actuallly in my database show that i am down to all of these players. I have talked to several guys at the 200-400 limit and everyone thinks these players above are bad but all of them have are losers against everyone of the above players. I would like to hear some thoughts on some of you guys have played millions of hands online and if they have seen any betting patterns that could result in suspicion of the intergrity of the system.


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ALL1N
lobster


Reged: 05/10/03
Posts: 2013
Loc: Melbourne 07
Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: fearme]
      #12076209 - 09/13/07 11:15 PM

Yes, just checked PT and he took me for 90 bets in 230 hands.

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DEAD ON IMPACT
newbie


Reged: 09/13/07
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: ALL1N]
      #12076263 - 09/13/07 11:18 PM

all1n you lobsternsake on ap way back?

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ALL1N
lobster


Reged: 05/10/03
Posts: 2013
Loc: Melbourne 07
Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: DEAD ON IMPACT]
      #12076266 - 09/13/07 11:18 PM

Wow this is scary stuff.

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ALL1N
lobster


Reged: 05/10/03
Posts: 2013
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: DEAD ON IMPACT]
      #12076306 - 09/13/07 11:21 PM

Yes.

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ALL1N
lobster


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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: ALL1N]
      #12076398 - 09/13/07 11:27 PM

Also, doubledrag would take 5 seconds preflop every time before he acted, yet not particularly long on any other decision. At first I suspected a bot but then this ridiculous hand happened: http://www.pokerhand.org/?1479525 and when I commented "wtf" he responded straight away.

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DEAD ON IMPACT
newbie


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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: ALL1N]
      #12076490 - 09/13/07 11:34 PM

What is his showdown win % agianst you?...I watched him play donkofholdem a few days ago and he almost never lost a showdown and seemed to know exactly when to fold..Funny though that session he was up about 60k and i beleive most if not all was off donkofholdem. (that session wasn't very long either and hour or 2)

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PartyGirlUK
Confirmed Bot, 100%


Reged: 11/02/04
Posts: 10995
Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: ALL1N]
      #12076520 - 09/13/07 11:36 PM

I havent played these guys, but the only time Ive really suspected foul play was again Mark Seif.....who Stuckinpgh blogged about similar bizarre happenings. Given how much Seif has lost in the past couple of years, it's probably unlikely that anything more than he just went on a 1 in 50,000 run against me, but it was mighty odd.

All1n that hand is odd, do u have your entire session v. him available for us to take a look at??


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ALL1N
lobster


Reged: 05/10/03
Posts: 2013
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: DEAD ON IMPACT]
      #12076529 - 09/13/07 11:37 PM

I only played 37 hands against him.

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PartyGirlUK
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: ALL1N]
      #12076541 - 09/13/07 11:38 PM

what about v greycat??

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ALL1N
lobster


Reged: 05/10/03
Posts: 2013
Loc: Melbourne 07
Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: PartyGirlUK]
      #12076617 - 09/13/07 11:44 PM

I'm not going to post a full session but I will have a look at the hands myself. I can send to you too if you like. The main thing I'm noticing is that whenever I hit a strong hand on the turn he c/f's a huge amount.

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mntbikr15
Pooh-Bah


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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: PartyGirlUK]
      #12076622 - 09/13/07 11:44 PM

Steamroller once had 500k on the 150/300 table. Said he wired it in.

Ive watched and played with both him and greycat(although I end up on tilt rather quickly it seems) a fair amount and it IS some of the most bizarre poker I have ever seen.

I have never seen either lose.


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ALL1N
lobster


Reged: 05/10/03
Posts: 2013
Loc: Melbourne 07
Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: ALL1N]
      #12076638 - 09/13/07 11:46 PM

That said, there is this hand in which I make a big river bluff against graycat and he folds, which seems unlikely if he can see my hand: http://www.pokerhand.org/?1369485

But perhaps he did see and thought he'd blow his cover if he capped that river. More likely actually.

Edited by ALL1N (09/13/07 11:47 PM)


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ALL1N
lobster


Reged: 05/10/03
Posts: 2013
Loc: Melbourne 07
Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: ALL1N]
      #12076763 - 09/13/07 11:57 PM

Here is a sick hand. http://www.pokerhand.org/?1479597

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DEAD ON IMPACT
newbie


Reged: 09/13/07
Posts: 47
Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: ALL1N]
      #12076933 - 09/14/07 12:11 AM

What i think is fishy without looking at the hands and looking strictly at the situation. He was called out for possibly cheating and didn't play another game since that session. Then after he didn't play a game until tonight where he dumped anywhere for 220k to 300k to a no name player. I think it's all weird and the circumstances make me beleive there is foul play involved. I mean if i just started on a site made 300k in 8 days i would continue to play and definetly not risk dumping 250k or something like that to another player risking getting in trouble with absolute.

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PartyGirlUK
Confirmed Bot, 100%


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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: DEAD ON IMPACT]
      #12076969 - 09/14/07 12:14 AM

Both those hands are real odd. I would appreciate you sending me an entire session tho, it's possible from the stuff posted so far that he's just a lunatic.

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fearme
addict


Reged: 09/29/04
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: DEAD ON IMPACT]
      #12076977 - 09/14/07 12:16 AM

might be time for me to cash out from abs for good

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Schneids
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: ALL1N]
      #12077262 - 09/14/07 12:48 AM

The most damning piece of evidence I can provide is Graycat is 66/58 preflop in my PT DB, avg 8.2 players at the table.

He goes to showdown 32.5, wins 74%. Obv he is running 22BB/100.

In my lifetime of playing poker, I have never seen anyone who plays that way preflop, have showdown stats such as the above. It'd be one thing if it was like 54 going to showdown, 58 win at showdown; then we could just say he is a LAG on a rush.


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Schneids
3 BB/100


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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: ALL1N]
      #12077299 - 09/14/07 12:53 AM

PUNKIN_U - Posts small blind $100
LEAVINGEGYPT - Posts big blind $200
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to PUNKIN_U [Kd 9d]
GRAYCAT - Raises $400 to $400
BERGENISGAY - Folds
TRUTHY - Folds
EZ2PLY - Raises $600 to $600
GEMMER - Folds
MAVERI9 - Folds
SCHDNFRD - Folds
PUNKIN_U - Calls $500
LEAVINGEGYPT - Folds
GRAYCAT - Calls $200
*** FLOP *** [2d 8s Qc]
PUNKIN_U - Checks
GRAYCAT - Bets $200
EZ2PLY - Calls $200
PUNKIN_U - Calls $200
*** TURN *** [2d 8s Qc] [2c]
PUNKIN_U - Checks
GRAYCAT - Bets $400
EZ2PLY - Raises $800 to $800
PUNKIN_U - Folds
GRAYCAT - Raises $800 to $1200
EZ2PLY - Calls $400
*** RIVER *** [2d 8s Qc 2c] [Ks]
GRAYCAT - Bets $400
EZ2PLY - Calls $400
*** SHOW DOWN ***
GRAYCAT - Shows [5s 4d] (One pair, twos)
EZ2PLY - Shows [As 5d] (One pair, twos)
EZ2PLY Collects $5795 from main pot


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ALL1N
lobster


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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: Schneids]
      #12077317 - 09/14/07 12:55 AM

How many hands is that over?

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Schneids
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: ALL1N]
      #12077335 - 09/14/07 12:57 AM

Quote:

How many hands is that over?




Unfortunately only 173. I don't know how quickly showdown stats converge with preflop stats, though considering the two extremes I still think it's damning evidence.


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ALL1N
lobster


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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: Schneids]
      #12077366 - 09/14/07 01:00 AM

I don't think the stat means that much. I have 623 hands and he's 28 wtsd 54 win @ sd.

Edited by ALL1N (09/14/07 01:02 AM)


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ALL1N
lobster


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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: ALL1N]
      #12077429 - 09/14/07 01:07 AM

I think the doubledrag story is the most concerning by far at this point. All the graycat stuff (mainly my own I guess) is fairly circumstantial.

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cartman
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: Schneids]
      #12077682 - 09/14/07 01:39 AM

Quote:

The most damning piece of evidence I can provide is Graycat is 66/58 preflop in my PT DB, avg 8.2 players at the table.

He goes to showdown 32.5, wins 74%. Obv he is running 22BB/100.





Can anyone take a look at their data from other sites and see if they can find anything similar. I wonder if this is going on other places, too.


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fearme
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: cartman]
      #12078602 - 09/14/07 03:55 AM

do u guys think they are all the same guy?

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newbie


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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: fearme]
      #12078753 - 09/14/07 04:29 AM

i think graycat and steamroller are the same person..doubledrag i think was someone different..if which i beleive he concieveably had the ability to read and see someone elses cards he played very agr. and overlooked all players thinking he had the ability to do so. I mean playing the way he did and beating the best players in both nl and limit games for 300k in a week and then dumping everything seemed guilty of something which i really would like to find out. Like Dean said from the few hands we have shown he seems like a lunatic...but to win every session playing this way agianst the best limit players on the site for 100's of thousands i can't see without an edge we do not know about.....Like i said in my first post i trully have never seen any player win so much money and play like as if they knew your hand ever until i saw these players especially doubledrag. I trully hope I am wrong because a'lot of us guys have worked on our game to be able to constistently be profitable..I feel that their is an edge these players had specifically doubledrag, had on all other players, i'm not sure what it intales but i have taken a step back from online poker since i have played him.

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Abbaddabba
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: DEAD ON IMPACT]
      #12079690 - 09/14/07 08:24 AM

If you are really concerned that they are cheating, datamine them for a while and put together a meaningful sample.

I would be interested in seeing how it pans out.


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gordo16
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: Abbaddabba]
      #12079873 - 09/14/07 08:54 AM

Well damn it. I was just about to swing a lot of money into Absolute because of their ridiculous high stakes interest program. This makes me think twice. And then a third time. I would love to see a sample size of over 5000 or so hands if anyone has the desire to datamine for that long.

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Adebisi
enthusiast


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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: Abbaddabba]
      #12079958 - 09/14/07 09:07 AM

Quote:

If you are really concerned that they are cheating, datamine them for a while and put together a meaningful sample.

I would be interested in seeing how it pans out.




Quote:

Well damn it. I was just about to swing a lot of money into Absolute because of their ridiculous high stakes interest program. This makes me think twice. And then a third time. I would love to see a sample size of over 5000 or so hands if anyone has the desire to datamine for that long.




I think the chances that these guys continue operating under these sceen names is minimal given the reports of recent chipdumping and this thread. Probably the only way to get a decent sample size on them would be to have a bunch of people combine databases or something.

Also, it looks like if they are in fact seeing other peoples cards, they are likely seeing everyones cards. What is technical feasability of this? To see one persons cards, all it would take would be to install a trojan on their computer, right? But to see everyones cards, they'd basically have to hack the site? If this is possible online poker is probably f*cked if/when it gets out.


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mntbikr15
Pooh-Bah


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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: Adebisi]
      #12080292 - 09/14/07 09:51 AM

Quote:

Quote:

If you are really concerned that they are cheating, datamine them for a while and put together a meaningful sample.

I would be interested in seeing how it pans out.




Quote:

Well damn it. I was just about to swing a lot of money into Absolute because of their ridiculous high stakes interest program. This makes me think twice. And then a third time. I would love to see a sample size of over 5000 or so hands if anyone has the desire to datamine for that long.




I think the chances that these guys continue operating under these sceen names is minimal given the reports of recent chipdumping and this thread. Probably the only way to get a decent sample size on them would be to have a bunch of people combine databases or something.

Also, it looks like if they are in fact seeing other peoples cards, they are likely seeing everyones cards. What is technical feasability of this? To see one persons cards, all it would take would be to install a trojan on their computer, right? But to see everyones cards, they'd basically have to hack the site? If this is possible online poker is probably f*cked if/when it gets out.




Ive had a conversation with two programmers who said its certainly within the realm of possibility that someone could do this, however they have no experience with online poker or whatever measures the sites take against this so who really knows.

One thing ive seen is that neither greycat or steamroller plays very much, at least not from what I see. Seems to me if they were just rich fish they would be at the tables far more, that type just strikes me as more of the "addicted" crowd.


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Abbaddabba
old hand


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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: mntbikr15]
      #12080384 - 09/14/07 10:03 AM

if they were cheating, they'd want to be playing a lot more too.


and anyone who is clever enough to hack the [censored] a site, i would expect would be clever enough to play in a way that doesnt set off any warning bells.

it's really not hard for them to just play straight forward and crush the games making the occasional brilliant fold, perfectly timed bluff raise, or other things that nobody would notice.


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DEAD ON IMPACT
newbie


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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: mntbikr15]
      #12080469 - 09/14/07 10:13 AM

Steamroller told me he was into "oil" and was an executive out of Miami...then a few months later someone asked his occupation he stated he was a moneymanager making 3.5mil and just having fun. Then i watched him play most recently and a railbird asked his occupation and the railbird said is it poker? he put "basically"....why would you wire in 400k on absolute to play the 150/300 limit game? I guess it's possible but he plays just the 10/20nl game too..what's even more interesting is why would you put 400k on absolute if you never lose, i just don't buy it. I would assume he had accumilated that through his winnings on the site. Doubledrag scares me the most though, we will see if any of these players show up at the tables in the next few weeks...if i see any of the same betting patterns with new nicknames i will post their names.

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mntbikr15
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: DEAD ON IMPACT]
      #12080492 - 09/14/07 10:16 AM

Dead,

A tiny bit of puncuation and spacing goes a long way.


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newbie


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Posts: 47
Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: mntbikr15]
      #12080551 - 09/14/07 10:22 AM

My apoligies, to much AIM conversations and lack of english courses.

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mntbikr15
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: PartyGirlUK]
      #12081145 - 09/14/07 11:21 AM

Quote:

I havent played these guys, but the only time Ive really suspected foul play was again Mark Seif.....who Stuckinpgh blogged about similar bizarre happenings. Given how much Seif has lost in the past couple of years, it's probably unlikely that anything more than he just went on a 1 in 50,000 run against me, but it was mighty odd.

All1n that hand is odd, do u have your entire session v. him available for us to take a look at??




Dean,

I dont think Seif was cheating in anyway....you play like he did though and its bound to look like it sometimes. But seriously, has anyone ever tried to figure what he dumped onto that site? In my two yrs or so there I wouldnt be suprised it it was like half a mil.


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ALL1N
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: Abbaddabba]
      #12081229 - 09/14/07 11:29 AM

Quote:

and anyone who is clever enough to hack the [censored] a site, i would expect would be clever enough to play in a way that doesnt set off any warning bells.

it's really not hard for them to just play straight forward and crush the games making the occasional brilliant fold, perfectly timed bluff raise, or other things that nobody would notice.




I don't agree with this. I think that a likely scenario is that the hackers were not particularly well versed in online poker (playing even a "standard" looking game is not something that comes easily). Somebody who is already taking lots of money out of poker is probably overall less likely to spend time trying to beat the software. I think that for anyone who hasn't been a long term poker player/gambler the urge to take the money quickly would be unsurmountable.

I think this also explains the chip dumping - a move that seems absurdly stupid to any regular player.

It must be extremely unlikely that Absolute missed the chip dumping activity, so I would suspect they are doing their own investigations right now.


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ALLEN BOND
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: mntbikr15]
      #12081415 - 09/14/07 11:44 AM

I think that the explanation to all of this are rich gamblers.

These players are obviously lucky guys with lots of money to burn and "chip dumping" to them is normal, because in case they are investigated, they could care less. They probably think that their high limit play is untouchable.


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veganmav
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: ALLEN BOND]
      #12081698 - 09/14/07 12:08 PM

This seems unlikely, but maybe this has something to do with pokertracker being hacked? I don't know when it was first hacked, but it's possible they get a trojan in there and people updated their PT and got it. And so they can see a few players hole cards?

seems unlikely, but I thought worth throwing out there.


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mntbikr15
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: veganmav]
      #12081720 - 09/14/07 12:10 PM

Quote:

This seems unlikely, but maybe this has something to do with pokertracker being hacked? I don't know when it was first hacked, but it's possible they get a trojan in there and people updated their PT and got it. And so they can see a few players hole cards?

seems unlikely, but I thought worth throwing out there.




I can recall seeing steamroller as long ago as 6-8 months I think.


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mntbikr15
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: ALLEN BOND]
      #12081725 - 09/14/07 12:10 PM

Quote:

I think that the explanation to all of this are rich gamblers.

These players are obviously lucky guys with lots of money to burn and "chip dumping" to them is normal, because in case they are investigated, they could care less. They probably think that their high limit play is untouchable.




Hi greycat


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tongni
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: fearme]
      #12081737 - 09/14/07 12:12 PM

Myself and Brad L looked at a chunk of the hands that Brad had played against Graycat last night. There is almost no question in my mind that something is very wrong. I would not play on Absolute, period.

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mntbikr15
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: tongni]
      #12081774 - 09/14/07 12:14 PM

Allin,

I agree they are prob already looking into it, but has anyone actually contacted them about it?

AP support is a bit dumb sometimes


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veganmav
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: tongni]
      #12081795 - 09/14/07 12:16 PM

Didn't steamroller used to be a big fish/loser in the 10/20 15/30 or 25/50 back in may june july?

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mntbikr15
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: veganmav]
      #12082004 - 09/14/07 12:32 PM

Quote:

Didn't steamroller used to be a big fish/loser in the 10/20 15/30 or 25/50 back in may june july?




I think I maybe recall playing him at those limits, Ill have to check PT later to know for sure though.


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stuckinpgh
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: veganmav]
      #12082166 - 09/14/07 12:47 PM

Quote:

Didn't steamroller used to be a big fish/loser in the 10/20 15/30 or 25/50 back in may june july?




Yes, I played him hu quite a bit a few months back and he was nothing short of the worst player I have ever seen.

Ok, I've also been in the 200/400 games with him lately and honestly I don't have an opinion, mostly because I've beat him for a small amount so far. That being said, he's up in my games, so if he's up and I've won there are some players getting seriously abused in this game. For the record, I will continue to play him if that tells you anymore about my feelings right now.

Anyway, I know it's not much data, but here goes...





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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: mntbikr15]
      #12082255 - 09/14/07 12:53 PM

I contacted AP 2 days ago about suspicous play and they said they would look into it. I also contacted them last night when I saw Doubledrag dump 250k or whatever the amount was and the ladie stated that there wasn't a note about me contacting them a few nights back and also that i should just write security an email.

She ended the conversation saying that I can be reasured that AP is 100% safe. Also, that it's impossible to see another players cards because of their incryption system.


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PartyGirlUK
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: tongni]
      #12082353 - 09/14/07 12:59 PM

Quote:

Myself and Brad L looked at a chunk of the hands that Brad had played against Graycat last night. There is almost no question in my mind that something is very wrong. I would not play on Absolute, period.




Could you guys on Rich pls email me a 100 hand continuous sample (or post a link here). I'm really curious too see it. Also, this is starting to get really worrying. A bunch of guys who I know personally and believe wouldnt make this accusions without something verrrrrrry suspicious going on all say they find the behaviour odd as hell. Havent found anyone who has played them who is willing to bet on them as legit.


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PartyGirlUK
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: mntbikr15]
      #12082408 - 09/14/07 01:03 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I havent played these guys, but the only time Ive really suspected foul play was again Mark Seif.....who Stuckinpgh blogged about similar bizarre happenings. Given how much Seif has lost in the past couple of years, it's probably unlikely that anything more than he just went on a 1 in 50,000 run against me, but it was mighty odd.

All1n that hand is odd, do u have your entire session v. him available for us to take a look at??




Dean,

I dont think Seif was cheating in anyway....you play like he did though and its bound to look like it sometimes. But seriously, has anyone ever tried to figure what he dumped onto that site? In my two yrs or so there I wouldnt be suprised it it was like half a mil.




I heard from someone who played a live donkament with him that he said he dropped 800k last year. I think the donkament took place in about september too! And they had only had 150/3 for a couple of months at that time! If he hadnt donked off that much it would be real suspicious -- Id appreciate if stuckin could contact me to give me his thoughts but I'd say 5-1 that something suspicious happened. Looks like much shorter odds in this case tho.


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stuckinpgh
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: PartyGirlUK]
      #12082506 - 09/14/07 01:08 PM

I think I got beat fair and square, at least I hope I did. If I didn't meh probably wasn't the first time someone cheated me in a high limit game. Anyway that is completely separate matter.

Much love for Mark and crew. I've played on AP probably every day this year, no complaints


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bicyclekickModerator
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: PartyGirlUK]
      #12082605 - 09/14/07 01:15 PM

I play a ton in those games and really am not sure how I feel about all of this...i'm just not convinced yet. The thing is, if he could see the cards, I really don't think he'd play a lot of the hands pre-flop. It just doesn't make sense to get in there with 84 when a guy has KK even if you can see his cards. I have faith still in the integrity and am gonna keep playing there.

This hand was odd but doesn't necesarily mean anything.

STAGE #748873608: HOLDEM NORMAL $200/$400 - 2007-08-30 15:49:06 (ET)
Table: AGUSTA AVE (Real Money) Seat #4 is the dealer
Seat 4 - CBBBBB ($9367 in chips)
Seat 5 - STAYINSCHOOL ($11459 in chips)
Seat 6 - SCHDNFRD ($14775 in chips)
Seat 1 - DONKOFHOLDEM ($6965 in chips)
Seat 2 - SHAUNDEEB ($5700 in chips)
Seat 3 - GRAYCAT ($38484 in chips)
STAYINSCHOOL - Posts small blind $100
SCHDNFRD - Posts big blind $200
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to CBBBBB [Js Qc]
DONKOFHOLDEM - Folds
SHAUNDEEB - Folds
GRAYCAT - Raises $400 to $400
CBBBBB - Calls $400
STAYINSCHOOL - Folds
SCHDNFRD - Calls $200
*** FLOP *** [10h 5h Kc]
SCHDNFRD - Checks
GRAYCAT - Bets $200
CBBBBB - Raises $400 to $400
SCHDNFRD - Folds
GRAYCAT - Raises $400 to $600
CBBBBB - Calls $200
*** TURN *** [10h 5h Kc] [Ac]
GRAYCAT - Checks
CBBBBB - Bets $400
GRAYCAT - Folds
CBBBBB - returned ($400) : not called
*** SHOW DOWN ***
CBBBBB - Does not show
CBBBBB Collects $2495 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($2500) | Rake ($5)
Board [10h 5h Kc Ac]
Seat 1: DONKOFHOLDEM Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 2: SHAUNDEEB Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 3: GRAYCAT Folded on the TURN
Seat 4: CBBBBB (dealer) collected Total ($2495) HI:($2495) [Does not show]
Seat 5: STAYINSCHOOL (small blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 6: SCHDNFRD (big blind) Folded on the FLOP


Also, there's like no way seif is cheating, I've pretty much always kicked the crap out of him.


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mntbikr15
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: bicyclekick]
      #12082693 - 09/14/07 01:20 PM

BK,

IDK, if I had the ability to cheat somehow I certainly want the image that these guys have. Games build in a matter of minutes around them.

Also seems if you could see hole cards you could overcome the PF crap with postflop play.


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veganmav
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: mntbikr15]
      #12082834 - 09/14/07 01:31 PM

This is before he got his hole card cam? August 8th FWIW.

STAGE #726347383: HOLDEM NORMAL $150/$300 - 2007-08-05 02:28:18 (ET)
Table: CHESAPEAKE (Real Money) Seat #1 is the dealer
Seat 1 - MAVERI9 ($24042 in chips)
Seat 4 - GRAYCAT ($18510 in chips)
Seat 5 - SCHDNFRD ($7943.06 in chips)
Seat 6 - DONKOFHOLDEM ($8001 in chips)
Seat 7 - CALVINHOBBES ($12498.50 in chips)
Seat 8 - CBBBBB ($6035 in chips)
Seat 9 - EJ_ ($2395 in chips)
GRAYCAT - Posts small blind $100
SCHDNFRD - Posts big blind $150
*** POCKET CARDS ***
DONKOFHOLDEM - Folds
CALVINHOBBES - Raises $300 to $300
CBBBBB - Folds
EJ_ - Folds
MAVERI9 - Folds
GRAYCAT - Calls $200
SCHDNFRD - Calls $150
*** FLOP *** [Qd 4d 9d]
GRAYCAT - Checks
SCHDNFRD - Checks
CALVINHOBBES - Bets $150
GRAYCAT - Raises $300 to $300
SCHDNFRD - Folds
CALVINHOBBES - Calls $150
*** TURN *** [Qd 4d 9d] [Qs]
GRAYCAT - Bets $300
CALVINHOBBES - Raises $600 to $600
GRAYCAT - Calls $300
*** RIVER *** [Qd 4d 9d Qs] [4c]
GRAYCAT - Checks
CALVINHOBBES - Checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
GRAYCAT - Shows [9s 2s] (Two Pair, queens and nines)
CALVINHOBBES - Shows [8d Ad] (Flush, ace high)
CALVINHOBBES Collects $2695 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($2700) | Rake ($5)
Board [Qd 4d 9d Qs 4c]
Seat 1: MAVERI9 (dealer) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 4: GRAYCAT (small blind) HI:lost with Two Pair, queens and nines [9s 2s - B:Qs,B:Qd,P:9s,B:9d,B:4d]
Seat 5: SCHDNFRD (big blind) Folded on the FLOP
Seat 6: DONKOFHOLDEM Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 7: CALVINHOBBES won Total ($2695) HI:($2695) with Flush, ace high [8d Ad - P:Ad,B:Qd,B:9d,P:8d,B:4d]
Seat 8: CBBBBB Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 9: EJ_ Folded on the POCKET CARDS


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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: veganmav]
      #12082954 - 09/14/07 01:39 PM

I made my first post specifically for the play of doubledrag. There isn't much out there because he only played a week on AP. Does anyone know who DonkofHoldem is? Seems he is a consistent winner on AP but got pwned by Doubledrag in a few sessions and I would like to see some of his hand history as i'm sure others would also.

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fearme
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: DEAD ON IMPACT]
      #12083161 - 09/14/07 01:56 PM

ive noticed in a lot of hands vs him when he caps or 3bets me if i flop tp or better he will just check fold or checks behind when in position on the flop,

i think mark seif is easily down half a mil on absolute


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stuckinpgh
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: fearme]
      #12083319 - 09/14/07 02:07 PM

I know some of you guys aren't used to this, but this news just in... there are people out there with tons of money that love to gamble. I have played a handful of people in my time online that their only objective is to win the pot. Winning money is irrelevant to them, all they want to do is win and torture you.

I'm with Bicycle I think (didn't know you were CBBBBB but that's good to know now), I think he's just some rich tard on a run. I see this alot hu actually when playing the savage gamblers out there. They do the exact opposite of what theory says. They bluff at every pot they can't win at showdown, and they check behind you on the river with 2nd pair A kicker when all you've done is check call the entire way. To them it's all about winning the pot, winning money isn't important to them because they obv have too much of it already.

Also, if he had 500k, who the $*%& wires in 500k to CHEAT? And if he won all that don't you think he would cash out much sooner than this if he was cheating? Did I mention he chat tilts as well?

Edited by stuckinpgh (09/14/07 02:10 PM)


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fearme
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: stuckinpgh]
      #12083445 - 09/14/07 02:17 PM

"I know some of you guys aren't used to this, but this news just in... there are people out there with tons of money that love to gamble. I have played a handful of people in my time online that their only objective is to win the pot. Winning money is irrelevant to them, all they want to do is win and torture you.

I'm with BC I think (didn't know you were CBBBBB but that's good to know now), I think he's just some rich tard on a run. I see this alot hu actually when playing the savage gamblers out there. They do the exact opposite of what theory says. They bluff at every pot they can't win at showdown, and they check behind you on the river with 2nd pair A kicker when all you've done is check call the entire way. To them it's all about winning the pot, winning money isn't important to them because they obv have too much of it already.

Also, if he had 500k, who the $*%& wires in 500k to CHEAT? And if he won all that don't you think he would cash out much sooner than this if he was cheating? Did I mention he chat tilts as well? "


i really hope this is the case, but if he is cheating at 200-400 running up to 500k can be done pretty fast, he beat me for 29k in 30 minutes in a hu session, i think his chat could be to act like a regular losing player, when i saw him chip dumping over 100k to supercard he was acting like it was real saying stuff like oh man im ready to lose it all, then he would continue to cap preflop, flop, and turn then fold river for 1


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veganmav
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: fearme]
      #12083517 - 09/14/07 02:22 PM

When was the HU session with supercard, what stakes what times what date. thanks.

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stuckinpgh
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: fearme]
      #12083519 - 09/14/07 02:23 PM

A few other points are that he has a habit of hitting and running for a few k. I haven't had too many sessions where he lost a lot. He would either lose 4k or make 15k. The one time I saw him lose more than 10 was the time I saw him chat tilt.

Also he's done that cap cap fold to one bet on the river a few times to me. It's certainly different


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mntbikr15
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: fearme]
      #12083611 - 09/14/07 02:29 PM

The 500k was a while ago when the biggest they had was 150/300 and 13/30 NL. No clue about now

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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: stuckinpgh]
      #12083616 - 09/14/07 02:30 PM

STAGE #753375692: HOLDEM NO LIMIT $30 - 2007-09-04 17:44:57 (ET)
Table: ALHAMBRA (Real Money) Seat #5 is the dealer
Seat 5 - DOUBLEDRAG ($22373 in chips)
Seat 6 - THE GRINDER ($11554 in chips)
Seat 2 - DTON21 ($1760 in chips)
Seat 3 - hero ($3055 in chips)
THE GRINDER - Posts small blind $15
DTON21 - Posts big blind $30
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to hero [5d 10d]
hero - Raises $90 to $90
DOUBLEDRAG - Raises $240 to $240
THE GRINDER - Folds
DTON21 - Folds
hero - Calls $150
*** FLOP *** [6d Qc 8d]
hero - Checks
DOUBLEDRAG - Bets $150
hero - All-In(Raise) $2815 to $2815
DOUBLEDRAG - Calls $2665
*** TURN *** [6d Qc 8d] [2s]
*** RIVER *** [6d Qc 8d 2s] [5c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
hero - Shows [5d 10d] (One pair, fives)
DOUBLEDRAG - Shows [Kd 3c] (king high)
Collects $6153 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($6155) | Rake ($2)
Board [6d Qc 8d 2s 5c]
Seat 2: DTON21 (big blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 3: hero won Total ($6153) All-In HI:($6153) with One pair, fives [5d 10d - P:5d,B:5c,B:Qc,P:10d,B:8d]
Seat 5: DOUBLEDRAG (dealer) HI:lost with king high [Kd 3c - P:Kd,B:Qc,B:8d,B:6d,B:5c]
Seat 6: THE GRINDER (small blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS


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PartyGirlUK
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: DEAD ON IMPACT]
      #12083639 - 09/14/07 02:31 PM

Quote:

STAGE #753375692: HOLDEM NO LIMIT $30 - 2007-09-04 17:44:57 (ET)
Table: ALHAMBRA (Real Money) Seat #5 is the dealer
Seat 5 - DOUBLEDRAG ($22373 in chips)
Seat 6 - THE GRINDER ($11554 in chips)
Seat 2 - DTON21 ($1760 in chips)
Seat 3 - hero ($3055 in chips)
THE GRINDER - Posts small blind $15
DTON21 - Posts big blind $30
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to hero [5d 10d]
hero - Raises $90 to $90
DOUBLEDRAG - Raises $240 to $240
THE GRINDER - Folds
DTON21 - Folds
hero - Calls $150
*** FLOP *** [6d Qc 8d]
hero - Checks
DOUBLEDRAG - Bets $150
hero - All-In(Raise) $2815 to $2815
DOUBLEDRAG - Calls $2665
*** TURN *** [6d Qc 8d] [2s]
*** RIVER *** [6d Qc 8d 2s] [5c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
hero - Shows [5d 10d] (One pair, fives)
DOUBLEDRAG - Shows [Kd 3c] (king high)
Collects $6153 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($6155) | Rake ($2)
Board [6d Qc 8d 2s 5c]
Seat 2: DTON21 (big blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 3: hero won Total ($6153) All-In HI:($6153) with One pair, fives [5d 10d - P:5d,B:5c,B:Qc,P:10d,B:8d]
Seat 5: DOUBLEDRAG (dealer) HI:lost with king high [Kd 3c - P:Kd,B:Qc,B:8d,B:6d,B:5c]
Seat 6: THE GRINDER (small blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS




That's just ridiculous.


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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: PartyGirlUK]
      #12083676 - 09/14/07 02:35 PM

That's what i'm saying. I have a few more. Nothing was sicker than pushing into 2 callers and one reraiser with ace high for a 27k pot. Somehow he was ahead at the push too, the caller had kq and was on a flush draw.

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PartyGirlUK
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: DEAD ON IMPACT]
      #12083711 - 09/14/07 02:37 PM

pls post these hands.

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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: PartyGirlUK]
      #12083854 - 09/14/07 02:47 PM

STAGE #753352517: HOLDEM NO LIMIT $30 - 2007-09-04 17:16:15 (ET)
Table: ALHAMBRA (Real Money) Seat #5 is the dealer
Seat 5 - DOUBLEDRAG ($21909 in chips)
Seat 6 - PRIMOGENITOX ($3291 in chips)
Seat 3 - hero ($5365 in chips)
Seat 4 - THE GRINDER ($7513 in chips)
PRIMOGENITOX - Posts small blind $15
hero - Posts big blind $30
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to hero [Jh Kh]
THE GRINDER - Raises $120 to $120
DOUBLEDRAG - Raises $270 to $270
PRIMOGENITOX - Folds
hero - Calls $240
THE GRINDER - Calls $150
*** FLOP *** [9d 5h 10s]
hero- Checks
THE GRINDER - Checks
DOUBLEDRAG - Bets $120
hero - Calls $120
THE GRINDER - Folds
*** TURN *** [9d 5h 10s] [10d]
hero- Checks
DOUBLEDRAG - Bets $480
hero - Raises $1200 to $1200
DOUBLEDRAG - Raises $1920 to $2400
hero - Calls $1200
*** RIVER *** [9d 5h 10s 10d] [Kc]
hero - All-In $2575
DOUBLEDRAG - Folds
hero - returned ($2575) : not called
*** SHOW DOWN ***
hero - Does not show
hero Collects $5863 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($5865) | Rake ($2)
Board [9d 5h 10s 10d Kc]
Seat 3: hero (big blind) collected Total ($5863) All-In HI:($5863) [Does not show]
Seat 4: THE GRINDER Folded on the FLOP
Seat 5: DOUBLEDRAG (dealer) Folded on the RIVER
Seat 6: PRIMOGENITOX (small blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS

Literally everytime i had a big hand overpair 2 pr etc. he would fold flop (considering he played every hand). But when I tryed to make a bluff he was over the top every time with a reraise. It just didn't seem right.


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fearme
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: veganmav]
      #12084142 - 09/14/07 03:09 PM

"When was the HU session with supercard, what stakes what times what date. thanks."


well i dont have an exact date or time but maybe a week or 2 ago and i think in the afternoon

"Also he's done that cap cap fold to one bet on the river a few times to me. It's certainly different"

did he do this hand after hand? im talking about possibly 100 consecutive hands where he would cap then fold for 1 on the river

"The 500k was a while ago when the biggest they had was 150/300 and 13/30 NL. No clue about now"

interesting has he been playing in the 150 game for a while? his name was new to me a couple months ago but ive taken periodic breaks from absolute poker so maybe he played when i was out of action although i usually log in to see who is on and i never seen him


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fearme
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: fearme]
      #12084160 - 09/14/07 03:10 PM

that k high flop call is sick

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THEHANDOFGOD
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: veganmav]
      #12084424 - 09/14/07 03:29 PM

Quote:

When was the HU session with supercard, what stakes what times what date. thanks.




1000% Chip dumping.

Stage #748836808: Holdem (1 on 1) Normal $200/$400 - 2007-08-30 14:48:27 (ET)
Table: IOWA DR (Real Money) Seat #6 is the dealer
Seat 6 - GRAYCAT ($7638 in chips)
Seat 4 - SUPERCARDM55 ($17717 in chips)
GRAYCAT - Posts small blind $100
SUPERCARDM55 - Posts big blind $200
*** POCKET CARDS ***
GRAYCAT - Raises $300 to $400
SUPERCARDM55 - Raises $400 to $600
GRAYCAT - Raises $400 to $800
SUPERCARDM55 - Calls $200
*** FLOP *** [3s Jc 2c]
SUPERCARDM55 - Bets $200
GRAYCAT - Raises $400 to $400
SUPERCARDM55 - Raises $400 to $600
GRAYCAT - Raises $400 to $800
SUPERCARDM55 - Calls $200
*** TURN *** [3s Jc 2c] [10c]
SUPERCARDM55 - Checks
GRAYCAT - Bets $400
SUPERCARDM55 - Raises $800 to $800
GRAYCAT - Raises $800 to $1200
SUPERCARDM55 - Raises $800 to $1600
GRAYCAT - Calls $400
*** RIVER *** [3s Jc 2c 10c] [Qc]
SUPERCARDM55 - Bets $400
GRAYCAT - Raises $800 to $800
SUPERCARDM55 - Raises $800 to $1200
GRAYCAT - Calls $400
*** SHOW DOWN ***
SUPERCARDM55 - Shows [6c 6d] (Flush, queen high)
GRAYCAT - Mucks
SUPERCARDM55 Collects $8799 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($8800) | Rake ($1)
Board [3s Jc 2c 10c Qc]
Seat 4: SUPERCARDM55 (small blind) won Total ($8799) HI:($8799) with Flush, queen high [6c 6d - B:Qc,B:Jc,B:10c,P:6c,B:2c]
Seat 6: GRAYCAT (dealer) HI: [Mucked] [3d As]


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baronzeus
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: fearme]
      #12084636 - 09/14/07 03:44 PM

i have played a good bit with steamroller and graycat and something fishy is definitely up with graycat

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hoppscot22
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: baronzeus]
      #12085881 - 09/14/07 05:24 PM

steamroller is just terrible...

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MaverickUSC
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: hoppscot22]
      #12086289 - 09/14/07 06:02 PM

Every other conspiracy theory gets shot down on this entire forum. This one has legs - has to be something to it.

Devo


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kahntrutahn
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: fearme]
      #12086729 - 09/14/07 06:43 PM




FWIW, I think I'd like to play him to infinity. Steamroller as well.
Many of you also.
However, go back to stars and leave my pond alone.


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BradL
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: stuckinpgh]
      #12086768 - 09/14/07 06:46 PM

Quote:

Did I mention he chat tilts as well?




Trust me if I was cheating AND losing you'd better believe id chat tilt as well.

-brad


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BradL
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: bicyclekick]
      #12086827 - 09/14/07 06:52 PM

Can anyone show me and hand history where he check folds when you brick? I couldn't find one in 700 hands played with him.

-brad


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pokerchap
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: BradL]
      #12087714 - 09/14/07 08:17 PM

a lot of this stuff is extremely worthless. the only way to find out is if someone has a real decent sample... they are obv. smart enough to log SOME losing sessions... if you have them breaking even over like 500 hands it means NOTHING

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Adebisi
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: stuckinpgh]
      #12088028 - 09/14/07 08:48 PM

That street bt street AF's for STEAMROLLER are insane 3/4/5/13. For those with a fair amount of hands on him: Has he ever called on the river? It looks like pretty much all of his lost showdowns either go check/check, or he bluff's and gets called down light.

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Schneids
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: pokerchap]
      #12088407 - 09/14/07 09:28 PM

My basic contention is it is IMPOSSIBLE for somebody to play the way he plays preflop, and to combine it with the way he plays postflop. If someone were to play that style preflop, with those showdown stats, they should be losing a TON because they are simply too often putting money into the pot and then folding when either they have odds to draw, or the winning hand (basically, think of it as Graycat/whoever else has having a forced ante, and nobody else does). The only way he can be crushing, like he has, with these stats is if he sees that his second pair/3rd pair/ace high is best and he ram and jams max value, and then he saves tons of bets by folding hands when he's drawing slim or dead post flop. Basically, it's like he makes every flop/turn/river decision perfectly when he has high cards or crappy pairs -- simply NOT possible.

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bicyclekickModerator
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: Schneids]
      #12088641 - 09/14/07 09:53 PM

I'm still not convinced but that 13 aggression factor is kinda messed up and the most damning piece of evidence.

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DEAD ON IMPACT
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Reged: 09/13/07
Posts: 47
Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: bicyclekick]
      #12088728 - 09/14/07 10:03 PM

Well WE will really never be able to PROVE that these players are cheating and can only look at so many hands to evaluate play that doesn't seem possible without further knowledge of their opponents hands. Only real way to show really convincing evidence is if we could see their folded hands. If their folding 2nd, 3rd pair, to top pair etc. or any other big hands when they would be the loser. It's an obvious assumption that they had ability to know when to fold by seeing the other players hand.


We will have to let AP do their work but even if they did find something out that could reflect the aligations i'm betting know way AP lets it's players know because that would really ruin it's reputation as a secure site.


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Adebisi
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: DEAD ON IMPACT]
      #12088839 - 09/14/07 10:13 PM

Quote:


Well WE will really never be able to PROVE that these players are cheating and can only look at so many hands to evaluate play that doesn't seem possible without further knowledge of their opponents hands. Only real way to show really convincing evidence is if we could see their folded hands. If their folding 2nd, 3rd pair, to top pair etc. or any other big hands when they would be the loser. It's an obvious assumption that they had ability to know when to fold by seeing the other players hand.




If people could put together a sample of 20k+ hands on each these guys and they NEVER get to showdown against really strong hands, I think that would be damn good evidence that they're making these kind of folds.


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DEAD ON IMPACT
newbie


Reged: 09/13/07
Posts: 47
Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: DEAD ON IMPACT]
      #12089367 - 09/14/07 11:10 PM

I know this is the limit forum but i have to post another nl hand. Here it is...I can't see a player making these plays and being up 300k in a week.

STAGE #753361340: HOLDEM NO LIMIT $30 - 2007-09-04 17:27:15 (ET)
Table: ALHAMBRA (Real Money) Seat #3 is the dealer
Seat 3 - HEro ($6881 in chips)
Seat 4 - THE GRINDER ($5970 in chips)
Seat 5 - DOUBLEDRAG ($21702 in chips)
Seat 2 - DTON21 ($1110 in chips)
THE GRINDER - Posts small blind $15
DOUBLEDRAG - Posts big blind $30
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to hero [10d 3c]
DTON21 - Folds
hero - Folds
THE GRINDER - Raises $135 to $150
DOUBLEDRAG - Calls $120
*** FLOP *** [As 4h 8s]
THE GRINDER - Bets $180
DOUBLEDRAG - Calls $180
*** TURN *** [As 4h 8s] [6d]
THE GRINDER - Checks
DOUBLEDRAG - Checks
*** RIVER *** [As 4h 8s 6d] [5d]
THE GRINDER - Checks
DOUBLEDRAG - Bets $5550
THE GRINDER - All-In(Raise) $5640 to $5640
DOUBLEDRAG - Folds
THE GRINDER - returned ($90) : not called
*** SHOW DOWN ***
THE GRINDER - Does not show
THE GRINDER Collects $11758 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($11760) | Rake ($2)
Board [As 4h 8s 6d 5d]
Seat 2: DTON21 Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 3: hero (dealer) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 4: THE GRINDER (small blind) collected Total ($11758) All-In HI:($11758) [Does not show]
Seat 5: DOUBLEDRAG (big blind) Folded on the RIVER



Fold 90 into a 11.5k pot? Looks like he miss read his opponents hand


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Abbaddabba
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Posts: 827
Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: DEAD ON IMPACT]
      #12089974 - 09/15/07 12:23 AM

super high river AF is the scariest part to me.

those street by street AFs are exactly what you'd expect to find from someone who could see others hole cards.


Quote:

Fold 90 into a 11.5k pot? Looks like he miss read his opponents hand




Or the miz rebluffed for $90 more with J high while doubledrag had 10 high.


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Dan Druff
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: pokerchap]
      #12091885 - 09/15/07 05:55 AM

I've played a whole lot on AP this year, especially over the summer.

Oddly enough, I missed out on most of the Greycat/Supercard/etc. games due to sheer coincidences of timing (basically I'd be out or sleeping when he'd show up). Still, I played about 10 sessions with the guy, including one heads up, and noticed exactly what everyone else is noticing:

1) His hand selection pre-flop is so bad (especially 9 handed) that he should be losing a fortune against the top-flight players he's been facing. Instead, he's been winning big almost every session.

2) It is very rare that he will fold if you miss the flop.

3) When you are holding a huge hand, he folds often.

Basically, yes, he plays like someone who can see your cards. But that's nothing new to anyone on this thread. I've played against legitimate players who have run so well that I'd swear they could see my hand if I didn't know better. We've also all seen examples of huge donks running up amazing short-term streaks that we never thought were possible -- including odd plays that leave us scratching our heads.

So what's the difference here? Perhaps nothing, perhaps something. But the evidence we've seen so far, some anecdotal, others more damning, makes this worth another look.

Before I go on, I can confirm that Greycat, Supercard, and the other suspect accounts posted here ARE indeed the same person. This isn't an assumption or a guess. It's a fact. PM me if you want me to explain this part further.

So we have this Greycat person playing on multiple accounts -- sometimes chipdumping between them -- and playing the highest games Absolute Poker has to offer. He plays both limit and no limit, yet top regular players from both games report the same suspicious experience with him.

He has won a ton of money (does anyone have the exact figures?), and rarely seems to lose.

If he is cheating, I think I know how he's doing it.

Long before Greycat showed up, there was some concern that AP had a "superuser" account, created by its software developers. This account, created strictly for testing purposes, would be able to see all cards of all players in all games. As a software programmer by trade, I can tell you that such an account would be very helpful in the development and testing process for a complicated piece of software like AP. I referred to there being "some concern" that such an account exists. I say this because I have some circumstantial evidence (which I can't share in public) that this is true, but I don't have any proof. Furthermore, prior to this Greycat situation, I had no reason to believe that this account ever fell into the wrong hands.

But what if it did fall into the wrong hands? Perhaps someone could have hacked it. Perhaps a rogue ex-developer of the software could have passed some info along to an accomplice. Perhaps a lot of things.

The fact is that, if Greycat did get access to such an account, he'd pretty much be doing exactly what he's doing now. Yes, maybe some subtlety would have done him better (so as to avoid this suspicion), but history is full of criminals whose otherwise brilliant capers were foiled by just a bit too much greed.

It's time to stop guessing and get some answers here. Obviously AP will never admit their system was compromised, even if it were true. That would pretty much be the equivalent of poker room suicide. We need to put together a concrete plan of action to either prove this guy is a fraud, or prove to ourselves that we're a bunch of paranoid fools. Either way, we need to prove something. In the next post, I'll give my suggestions on what I feel we should do next.


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Dan Druff
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: Dan Druff]
      #12091991 - 09/15/07 06:17 AM

Since no poker site would ever want to admit to one of its players compromising its integrity, proving this case will be difficult. It's an extreme case of "innocent until proven guilty."

We already know for a fact that Greycat chip-dumps to himself. While this is a victimless poker crime, it's still against AP's rules. Much like they nailed Al Capone on tax evasion, this could be a good starting point for his undoing. If enough of us make noise about it to AP security, we can probably get the accounts all frozen while they look into this. If they refuse, we can demand answers why it is okay for certain players to chip-dump but not others.

None of us reported the chip-dumping originally because we didn't want to see such a huge donk suspended from the site. Now, obviously, seeing him suspended would probably be a better idea. The WORST thing that could happen would be him feeling satisfied (or scared) and successfully cashing out.

BradL mentioned that he has 700 hands with Greycat and not ONE involving Greycat folding when Brad missed the flop. That's a pretty damning piece of evidence right there. If Brad could put this together in a more direct and digestible form for AP security (and for us), that would be a pretty strong starting point.

We need everyone else to look up their Pokertracker hands for evidence of this. If we can come up with several players with many hundreds (or thousands) of hands each, and if Greycat rarely folded to an opponent's flop miss, it would be hard for AP to explain this from that standpoint alone.

Second involves the converse. That is, look for hands where you DID have a monster, and he immediately folded. If several players put together a complete collection of their hands where they were super-strong, and if Greycat played them weakly and/or folded nearly every time, that is also extremely damning. Put it together with the first, and you've got nearly irrefutable evidence of cheating.

The proof will come in the volume. If several players analyze all the hands they have with Greycat, and if the two themes above are OVERWHELMINGLY present with all of his opponents, AP will have no choice but to deal with this matter.

So how many people have access to ALL of the hands they played versus Greycat? How many have actually analyzed ALL hands and clearly noticed a major issue? When I say ALL hands, I mean ALL hands. I don't mean hand-picking a few really suspicious ones. I'm talking about quantifying it where you can say, "I had 98 monsters and he gave little-to-no action on 95 of them, while I missed 343 times and he folded against me in just 15 of them."

If enough people can put quantifiable evidence like that together, we'll have a real case.


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gemmer
old hand


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Posts: 968
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: Dan Druff]
      #12092518 - 09/15/07 08:31 AM

I've been waiting for this thread for almost 2 months.

I've played 10 sessions vs. GRAYCAT and I really think there's a very good chance he's cheating. It's like others have said above me, he plays like he can see people's holecards. In the 1M+ hands I've played online, I've never seen anyone play like GRAYCAT.
The first few sessions he was just the big fish 3betting UTG raisers with J3o in a 150/300 full ring game. And I thought it was funny when I heard he had already won like 60k that day playing that way. But over the next few days/weeks I noticed something wasn't right. I analyzed his stats and all my hands on him and became more convinced that he's cheating.

These are all my hands I have on him. His preflop numbers and his showdown numbers just don't combine like Schneids said. I didn't notice the river AF until now, very interesting. We really should all combine our data like Dan Druff sugested and get a big enough sample to be able to do something about this.



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Borknagar
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: gemmer]
      #12092544 - 09/15/07 08:40 AM

Quote:

I've been waiting for this thread for almost 2 months.

I've played 10 sessions vs. GRAYCAT and I really think there's a very good chance he's cheating. It's like others have said above me, he plays like he can see people's holecards. In the 1M+ hands I've played online, I've never seen anyone play like GRAYCAT.
The first few sessions he was just the big fish 3betting UTG raisers with J3o in a 150/300 full ring game. And I thought it was funny when I heard he had already won like 60k that day playing that way. But over the next few days/weeks I noticed something wasn't right. I analyzed his stats and all my hands on him and became more convinced that he's cheating.

These are all my hands I have on him. His preflop numbers and his showdown numbers just don't combine like Schneids said. I didn't notice the river AF until now, very interesting. We really should all combine our data like Dan Druff sugested and get a big enough sample to be able to do something about this.






Geffer,

I can't even see his River Agression at 200/400. Is it like higher than 20? 25?


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gemmer
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Posts: 968
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: Borknagar]
      #12092639 - 09/15/07 09:06 AM

If I remember correctly it's the symbol for Infinity, but dunno for sure. I'm sure someone else does.

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bakku
(not) bustobusto


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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: Borknagar]
      #12092645 - 09/15/07 09:07 AM

Quote:

I can't even see his River Agression at 200/400. Is it like higher than 20? 25?




it's infinite.

i may be out of line saying this, but i wouldn't be surprised if this player was in some way affiliated with AP.


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Schneids
3 BB/100


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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: Borknagar]
      #12092690 - 09/15/07 09:20 AM

To have never called a river bet in 190 hands is pretty hard to do if you're playing honestly.

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gemmer
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: bakku]
      #12092766 - 09/15/07 09:38 AM

A few hands vs GRAYCAT, I have more

Hand 1:

Absolute Poker 150/300 Hold'em (3 handed) by Hand Converter CG

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8, A.
Button folds, Hero completes, BB raises, Hero calls.

Flop: (4 SB) A, K, T (2 players)
Hero checks, BB checks.

Turn: (2 BB) 5 (2 players)
Hero checks, BB checks.

River: (2 BB) 7 (2 players)
Hero bets, BB folds.

Final Pot: 3 BB

Outcome: Hero wins 3 BB.

Hand 2: GRAYCAT is BB in this hand. Coldcaps preflop and then check/folds flop.

Absolute Poker 200/400 Hold'em (4 handed) by Hand Converter CG

Preflop: Hero is Button with 5, 5.
UTG raises, Hero 3-bets, SB folds, BB caps, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (12.50 SB) 2, 2, 5 (3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, BB folds, UTG calls.

Hand 3:

Absolute Poker 200/400 Hold'em (4 handed) by Hand Converter CG

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6, K.
UTG folds, Button raises, SB folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 7, 2, K (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

Turn: (2.25 BB) K (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

River: (2.25 BB) 9 (2 players)
Hero bets, Button folds.

Final Pot: 3.25 BB

Hero has 6d Kd (three of a kind, kings).
Outcome: Hero wins 3.25 BB.


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tmfs
old hand


Reged: 08/30/04
Posts: 1076
Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: bakku]
      #12092910 - 09/15/07 10:11 AM

Quote:

i wouldn't be surprised if this player was in some way affiliated with AP.




This seems like the only possible explanation.


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surfdoc
Carpal \'Tunnel


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Posts: 3247
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: gemmer]
      #12093073 - 09/15/07 10:46 AM

Quote:

A few hands vs GRAYCAT, I have more

Hand 1:

Absolute Poker 150/300 Hold'em (3 handed) by Hand Converter CG

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8, A.
Button folds, Hero completes, BB raises, Hero calls.

Flop: (4 SB) A, K, T (2 players)
Hero checks, BB checks.

Turn: (2 BB) 5 (2 players)
Hero checks, BB checks.

River: (2 BB) 7 (2 players)
Hero bets, BB folds.

Final Pot: 3 BB

Outcome: Hero wins 3 BB.

Hand 2: GRAYCAT is BB in this hand. Coldcaps preflop and then check/folds flop.

Absolute Poker 200/400 Hold'em (4 handed) by Hand Converter CG

Preflop: Hero is Button with 5, 5.
UTG raises, Hero 3-bets, SB folds, BB caps, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (12.50 SB) 2, 2, 5 (3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, BB folds, UTG calls.

Hand 3:

Absolute Poker 200/400 Hold'em (4 handed) by Hand Converter CG

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6, K.
UTG folds, Button raises, SB folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 7, 2, K (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

Turn: (2.25 BB) K (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

River: (2.25 BB) 9 (2 players)
Hero bets, Button folds.

Final Pot: 3.25 BB

Hero has 6d Kd (three of a kind, kings).
Outcome: Hero wins 3.25 BB.




Wow, this thread is a serious kick int the nuts to all of us non conspiracy theorists. Hand 2 is so insane. For christs sake, when would any player in any game at any stakes coldcap out of the BB and check fold a 225r flop. That doesn't even make sense if he misclicked.


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PartyGirlUK
Confirmed Bot, 100%


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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: surfdoc]
      #12093095 - 09/15/07 10:53 AM

This is really, really odd. If people want I can make a new PT DB and everyone here can send there AP HHs to me - I can do some very nice statistical analysis of his hands, I'm trained in that area.

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veganmav
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: PartyGirlUK]
      #12093321 - 09/15/07 11:34 AM

All of the suspicious hands are with "greycat" not steamroller right???

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jba
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: gemmer]
      #12093340 - 09/15/07 11:37 AM

Quote:






what does the river action look like when he loses at showdown? it must pretty much always be check/check right? can you look at those hands and see what kind of shape he is in on the turn and the turn action? those are probably the most interesting hands.

also interesting to know why his river AF is not infinity for the second level. it looks like it's possible he only called once or twice.


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geormiet
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: fearme]
      #12093358 - 09/15/07 11:41 AM

Even though its necessary to gather information, I worry about this information being public until a case is made against this player, if the possible cheater is reading this and finds out people are on to him it will let him hide or become smarter about what he is doing.

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ALL1N
lobster


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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: geormiet]
      #12093838 - 09/15/07 12:45 PM

Quote:


Even though its necessary to gather information, I worry about this information being public until a case is made against this player, if the possible cheater is reading this and finds out people are on to him it will let him hide or become smarter about what he is doing.




I think getting their money off the site is the only thing these guys will be concerned about right now (not playing).


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Keepitsimple
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: ALL1N]
      #12094105 - 09/15/07 01:16 PM

Combining his vip and river af... Its just so off.

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Schneids
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: Keepitsimple]
      #12094365 - 09/15/07 01:46 PM

Well I've already decided that I'm never going to play on AP again unless they reimburse me the $7250 that Graycat is up on me lifetime.

I know that'll never happen but from my perspective, they only keep my business if they fix this situation and admit that there is wrongdoings involved.


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Perestroika
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: Schneids]
      #12111951 - 09/16/07 11:08 PM

This feels like a resident evil game and the umbrella corporation is looming above us.

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Adebisi
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: fearme]
      #12112372 - 09/16/07 11:39 PM

I just remembered this. Wasn't there a guy named "Greycat" on Stars a couple of years ago that used to play mid-stakes, then won the Sunday Million and started playing high?

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___1___
__________


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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: Adebisi]
      #12112778 - 09/17/07 12:16 AM

What was the date of the patch?

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Dilznoofus
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: ___1___]
      #12113126 - 09/17/07 12:48 AM

Quote:

What was the date of the patch?




8/23


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___1___
__________


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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: Dilznoofus]
      #12113146 - 09/17/07 12:49 AM

Quote:

8/23




Thanks!


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ALL1N
lobster


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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: ___1___]
      #12113632 - 09/17/07 01:36 AM

It really sucks that they haven't frozen Doubledrag's account while this investigation goes on. There he is donking all the stolen money off to other players, thereby making it nigh impossible for those cheated out of the money to get paid back. [censored] ridiculous.

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MDPokerAA
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: ALL1N]
      #12113709 - 09/17/07 01:42 AM

Have high stakes AP players been forwarding these HH's and claims to AP? If so, what has been the initial response?

Something has to be done about this, true or not. And if what most players have been saying is true, AP has a lot of explaining to do and I want to hear it.


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BradL
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: ALL1N]
      #12113728 - 09/17/07 01:44 AM

ALL1N please log on aim now or clear out your private messages. Where do you see this happening?

-brad


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ALL1N
lobster


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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: MDPokerAA]
      #12113742 - 09/17/07 01:45 AM

Quote:

Have high stakes AP players been forwarding these HH's and claims to AP? If so, what has been the initial response?

Something has to be done about this, true or not. And if what most players have been saying is true, AP has a lot of explaining to do and I want to hear it.




I called them and apparently they are investigating these players. I just can't believe that Doubledrag's account hasn't been frozen during the investigations though. The chipdumping should have been enough to trigger that.


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mntbikr15
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: ALL1N]
      #12114302 - 09/17/07 02:42 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Have high stakes AP players been forwarding these HH's and claims to AP? If so, what has been the initial response?

Something has to be done about this, true or not. And if what most players have been saying is true, AP has a lot of explaining to do and I want to hear it.




I called them and apparently they are investigating these players. I just can't believe that Doubledrag's account hasn't been frozen during the investigations though. The chipdumping should have been enough to trigger that.




Its [censored] AP, worst customer service ever.

Thursday or so I tried to transfer some money(2k) to a UB account.

Went away for the weekend, looked today, it says request canceled and request recieved twice in my cashier. ZERO correspondence from AP as to WHY this happened or even that it did.


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scorer
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: mntbikr15]
      #12114911 - 09/17/07 04:12 AM

vip rep told me the acount was closed and re-opened. Is ap trying to save face here by making this account lose on purpose here.

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DEAD ON IMPACT
newbie


Reged: 09/13/07
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: scorer]
      #12118887 - 09/17/07 12:41 PM

Is online poker going to crumble? Seriously, if you were a hacker and knew that if you hacked into one of these poker sites you could make millions and if you did it right, it would unknown to anyone that you are cheating. For instance, doubledrag made 300k in a week. Now if cashes waits 3 months changes his name comes and plays agian for a week kills leaves makes another 300k, your looking at 1.2million over a year if he keeps his trend. Guys like steam and gray; lets say they play all the time and make 500k a year that's 2.2million that is being taken away from high stakes nl and limit players on just ap. Steamroller has shown his 500k on the tables once and i'm sure he didn't put all that on there. . I have taken a step back from online poker and have planned a few trips to Vegas instead. Hopefully soon we can be reassured that it's legit to play online.

Has anyone talked to Absolute about how the investigation is going and what actions if any actions would take place if a player was caught cheating in some way?


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Ron-Mexico
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: DEAD ON IMPACT]
      #12119381 - 09/17/07 01:12 PM

AP Affiliate Manager responds:

Hi Everyone,

This thread is completely off kilter...

Absolute Poker is certified and rated by the same organizations that monitor other poker rooms. To make accusations that AP is rigged or has a breach in our security is simply not true.

All players are monitored, and the players discussed in these threads have been reviewed and cleared by the security department. It can be assured that there are no security holes where player can hack in the system to view the cards.

If anyone would like to keep commenting on this subject you can contact myself via email at [Email]Danielle@chipleader.com.[/Email] Also, I correspond with QUITE a few affiliates on this forum daily/weekly via email so you will get a response, I would like to clear up any negative thoughts about this program and our brands. Thank you.

Kindest Regards,
D

http://www.pokeraffiliateworld.com/forum...ng-ap-ub-4.html


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mntbikr15
Pooh-Bah


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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: Ron-Mexico]
      #12119701 - 09/17/07 01:34 PM

Quote:

AP Affiliate Manager responds:

Hi Everyone,

This thread is completely off kilter...

Absolute Poker is certified and rated by the same organizations that monitor other poker rooms. To make accusations that AP is rigged or has a breach in our security is simply not true.

All players are monitored, and the players discussed in these threads have been reviewed and cleared by the security department. It can be assured that there are no security holes where player can hack in the system to view the cards.

If anyone would like to keep commenting on this subject you can contact myself via email at [Email]Danielle@chipleader.com.[/Email] Also, I correspond with QUITE a few affiliates on this forum daily/weekly via email so you will get a response, I would like to clear up any negative thoughts about this program and our brands. Thank you.

Kindest Regards,
D

http://www.pokeraffiliateworld.com/forum...ng-ap-ub-4.html




Am I crazy or would this person have no better idea about waht really may go on behind the scenes then you or I?


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Schneids
3 BB/100


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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: mntbikr15]
      #12119980 - 09/17/07 01:50 PM

Quote:

Quote:

AP Affiliate Manager responds:

Hi Everyone,

This thread is completely off kilter...

Absolute Poker is certified and rated by the same organizations that monitor other poker rooms. To make accusations that AP is rigged or has a breach in our security is simply not true.

All players are monitored, and the players discussed in these threads have been reviewed and cleared by the security department. It can be assured that there are no security holes where player can hack in the system to view the cards.

If anyone would like to keep commenting on this subject you can contact myself via email at [Email]Danielle@chipleader.com.[/Email] Also, I correspond with QUITE a few affiliates on this forum daily/weekly via email so you will get a response, I would like to clear up any negative thoughts about this program and our brands. Thank you.

Kindest Regards,
D

http://www.pokeraffiliateworld.com/forum...ng-ap-ub-4.html




Am I crazy or would this person have no better idea about waht really may go on behind the scenes then you or I?




That's my view, plus it's in this person's best interest if his customer's continue to play on AP.


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Tuco
Internet Poker Secret Agent


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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: Schneids]
      #12121615 - 09/17/07 03:44 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

AP Affiliate Manager responds:

Hi Everyone,

This thread is completely off kilter...

Absolute Poker is certified and rated by the same organizations that monitor other poker rooms. To make accusations that AP is rigged or has a breach in our security is simply not true.

All players are monitored, and the players discussed in these threads have been reviewed and cleared by the security department. It can be assured that there are no security holes where player can hack in the system to view the cards.

If anyone would like to keep commenting on this subject you can contact myself via email at [Email]Danielle@chipleader.com.[/Email] Also, I correspond with QUITE a few affiliates on this forum daily/weekly via email so you will get a response, I would like to clear up any negative thoughts about this program and our brands. Thank you.

Kindest Regards,
D

http://www.pokeraffiliateworld.com/forum...ng-ap-ub-4.html




Am I crazy or would this person have no better idea about waht really may go on behind the scenes then you or I?




That's my view, plus it's in this person's best interest if his customer's continue to play on AP.




Ya, lord knows why the affiliate manager is the one responding to this very serious accusation. AM's typically don't have any working knowledge of the client software or technical issues surrounding it. They are marketing people.

AP was pulled from one of the biggest RB provider sites a little while back and I think it's time for me to pull them from my site. They won't care much, but something is wrong here.

Tuco.


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veganmav
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: Schneids]
      #12121921 - 09/17/07 04:01 PM

Nice river valuebets Steamroller.

STAGE #757161607: HOLDEM NORMAL $200/$400 - 2007-09-08 21:31:11 (ET)
Table: DARE AVE (Real Money) Seat #3 is the dealer
Seat 3 - STEAMROLLER ($6780 in chips)
Seat 4 - BERGENISGAY ($21696 in chips)
Seat 5 - ARCADIO83 ($24702.25 in chips)
Seat 6 - STAYINSCHOOL ($5035.75 in chips)
BERGENISGAY - Posts small blind $100
ARCADIO83 - Posts big blind $200
*** POCKET CARDS ***
STAYINSCHOOL - Folds
STEAMROLLER - Raises $400 to $400
BERGENISGAY - Raises $500 to $600
ARCADIO83 - Folds
STEAMROLLER - Raises $400 to $800
BERGENISGAY - Calls $200
*** FLOP *** [As Js 10s]
BERGENISGAY - Checks
STEAMROLLER - Bets $200
BERGENISGAY - Raises $400 to $400
STEAMROLLER - Raises $400 to $600
BERGENISGAY - Calls $200
*** TURN *** [As Js 10s] [4h]
BERGENISGAY - Checks
STEAMROLLER - Bets $400
BERGENISGAY - Calls $400
*** RIVER *** [As Js 10s 4h] [5h]
BERGENISGAY - Checks
STEAMROLLER - Bets $400
BERGENISGAY - Calls $400
*** SHOW DOWN ***
STEAMROLLER - Shows [2h 5d] (One pair, fives)
BERGENISGAY - Mucks
STEAMROLLER Collects $4595 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($4600) | Rake ($5)
Board [As Js 10s 4h 5h]
Seat 3: STEAMROLLER (dealer) won Total ($4595) HI:($4595) with One pair, fives [2h 5d - B:5h,P:5d,B:As,B:Js,B:10s]
Seat 4: BERGENISGAY (small blind) HI: [Mucked] [9c Ks]
Seat 5: ARCADIO83 (big blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 6: STAYINSCHOOL Folded on the POCKET CARDS


STAGE #757204002: HOLDEM NORMAL $200/$400 - 2007-09-08 22:22:18 (ET)
Table: DARE AVE (Real Money) Seat #4 is the dealer
Seat 4 - BERGENISGAY ($10183.50 in chips)
Seat 5 - ARCADIO83 ($8479.75 in chips)
Seat 6 - POKERART82 ($20000 in chips)
Seat 1 - STEREOFLAVAS ($5350 in chips)
Seat 3 - STEAMROLLER ($28270 in chips)
ARCADIO83 - Posts small blind $100
POKERART82 - Posts big blind $200
*** POCKET CARDS ***
STEREOFLAVAS - Folds
STEAMROLLER - Raises $400 to $400
BERGENISGAY - Raises $600 to $600
ARCADIO83 - Folds
POKERART82 - Folds
STEAMROLLER - Raises $400 to $800
BERGENISGAY - Calls $200
*** FLOP *** [5h 3h 7s]
STEAMROLLER - Bets $200
BERGENISGAY - Calls $200
*** TURN *** [5h 3h 7s] [As]
STEAMROLLER - Bets $400
BERGENISGAY - Calls $400
*** RIVER *** [5h 3h 7s As] [2d]
STEAMROLLER - Bets $400
BERGENISGAY - Calls $400
*** SHOW DOWN ***
STEAMROLLER - Shows [Ks Jc] (ace high)
BERGENISGAY - Mucks
STEAMROLLER Collects $3895 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($3900) | Rake ($5)
Board [5h 3h 7s As 2d]
Seat 1: STEREOFLAVAS Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 3: STEAMROLLER won Total ($3895) HI:($3895) with ace high [Ks Jc - B:As,P:Ks,P:Jc,B:7s,B:5h]
Seat 4: BERGENISGAY (dealer) HI: [Mucked] [Kd 10s]
Seat 5: ARCADIO83 (small blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 6: POKERART82 (big blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS




Edited by veganmav (09/17/07 04:05 PM)


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chrisptp
journeyman


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Posts: 80
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: veganmav]
      #12123355 - 09/17/07 05:40 PM

Poker affiliate world appears to have killed that thread.

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chrisptp
journeyman


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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: chrisptp]
      #12123463 - 09/17/07 05:48 PM

yup, they did. i asked why and got this reply:

"I removed the thread on request of AP upper management. They will be giving the affiliates an official statement via PAW."


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chrisptp
journeyman


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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: chrisptp]
      #12123780 - 09/17/07 06:12 PM

and here's that statement (i guess):

http://www.pokeraffiliateworld.com/forum....html#post66176

"Hi All,

Thank you for your patience in this urgent issue.

Let me start off by stating in 100% confidence that, fair play and security is of paramount importance to Absolute Poker. We have temporarily frozen accounts that have been brought to our attention while we perform an extensive investigation.

While we are continuing with our investigation, we have yet to find any evidence of wrong doing. Our game client only receives data regarding the individuals hand and no other players hole cards, except in the event of a showdown.

The player’s and their respective actions that are in question, all come from a small sample of Hands. We have researched their play exhaustively and have found no proof that they had any knowledge of other player’s hole cards.

There were hands that were played poorly -- from a poker strategy perspective -- and these players did receive a fortunate result.
So far we have no evidence that substantiates claims that any of the players were involved in chip dumping, or any other improper activity.

Because of the seriousness of these allegations, we have not closed the investigation and are continuing to look very closely into this matter.We will notify you if we obtain any new information regarding these claims.

Kindest Regards,
Danielle"


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mntbikr15
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 05/05/04
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: chrisptp]
      #12124025 - 09/17/07 06:30 PM

Quote:







So far we have no evidence that substantiates claims that any of the players were involved in chip dumping, or any other improper activity.






LOLLOLOL

edit- if that statement is for real and official this has GOTTA be an inside job

Edited by mntbikr15 (09/17/07 06:32 PM)


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DEAD ON IMPACT
newbie


Reged: 09/13/07
Posts: 47
Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: mntbikr15]
      #12124343 - 09/17/07 06:51 PM

Was i hilusinating or did Doubledrag make an obvious chip dump of 250k a few days back? If a player sits at 25/50nl and bets 9975 of his 10k stack and his opponents goes all in for 10k and he folds, to me that looks like chip dumping.

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stigmata
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: DEAD ON IMPACT]
      #12130930 - 09/18/07 05:42 AM

Quote:

Was i hilusinating or did Doubledrag make an obvious chip dump of 250k a few days back? If a player sits at 25/50nl and bets 9975 of his 10k stack and his opponents goes all in for 10k and he folds, to me that looks like chip dumping.




we need mined hands of this event.

we need a PTDB of every single hand observed hand, limit+nl, that they have played. For [censored] sake, sort this out NOW high stakes regulars!

otherwise it can't be proved one way or the other.

But jesus [censored] chirst it looks more suspicious than anything anyone has ever seen before. The point that absolute don't seem to be addressing is that it is extremely improbable to play 95% of your hands FTOP correct.

Another interesting side point is that the player(s) appear to have been high stakes fish who then suddenly went on a massive winning streak. This is not consistent with the "random hacker" hypothesis -- it seems unlikely that a high stakes fish would suddenly discover mad hacking skills. Instead, it supports the alternate theories of either A) an inside job or B) just a random set of a few hundred hands where a fish accidentally makes 95% correct FTOP decisions.


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BradL
old hand


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Posts: 757
Loc: Bloodbathed at the Commerce
Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: stigmata]
      #12131538 - 09/18/07 07:49 AM

Quote:

it seems unlikely that a high stakes fish would suddenly discover mad hacking skills. Instead, it supports the alternate theories of either A) an inside job or B) just a random set of a few hundred hands where a fish accidentally makes 95% correct FTOP decisions.




It seems almost certain that if it is cheating it is in some respect an "inside job;" that is to say that on some level the software developers or security staff are involved. It is my unsubstantiated hypothesis that graycat is either a current/ex-employee of ap or a close associate of one.


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chrisptp
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: BradL]
      #12133785 - 09/18/07 12:13 PM

correct me if i'm wrong, but wasn't the chip dumping accusation pretty clearly supported in another thread? her statement outright denies it...

also, has anyone seen the accounts in question playing? her statement does say they temporarily froze (some of?) the accounts mentioned in the thread...


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suzzer99
save the cheerleader. save OOT.


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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: chrisptp]
      #12134066 - 09/18/07 12:35 PM

I don't see how any of you guys could ever feel comfortable playing there again, no matter how juicy the games are, w/o assurances from AP that they've fixed the security hole. I know it would always be in the back of my mind on any strange play I saw involving someone I didn't know well. That can't be good for your game.

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Coy_Roy
old hand


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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: suzzer99]
      #12134990 - 09/18/07 01:50 PM

Quote:

I don't see how any of you guys could ever feel comfortable playing there again, no matter how juicy the games are, w/o assurances from AP that they've fixed the security hole. I know it would always be in the back of my mind on any strange play I saw involving someone I didn't know well. That can't be good for your game.






I'm not a high limit player, but I'll never even consider playing there again until they at least acknowledge the problem.

That will never happen.


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akcbr954
stranger


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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: Coy_Roy]
      #12313057 - 10/01/07 02:04 PM

bump

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emerson
old hand


Reged: 02/25/07
Posts: 818
Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: Abbaddabba]
      #12321832 - 10/02/07 12:18 AM

Quote:

if they were cheating, they'd want to be playing a lot more too.




No. Not true. More time is more exposure, more risk. Make a big hit and disappear is much safer than sitting there for long periods of time. Sitting for long periods allows someone to make a complaint, gets someone to monitor them, investigations to get done, etc.


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scorer
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Posts: 2530
Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: emerson]
      #12322610 - 10/02/07 01:09 AM

the latest from ap security is those accts are closed or locked and they ap are looking at every single hand and investigating, whatever that exactly means. I think its very likely AP will neve publicly disclose what happened and the results of such investigations

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NLfool
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Reged: 07/16/03
Posts: 2336
Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: scorer]
      #12323977 - 10/02/07 03:56 AM

lol what are they investigating? Anybody who has played poker for over a month can see this is 100% cheating. No possible way a luckbox can play like that.

Something is very strange here. Were they losing too much on their guaranteed tourneys that they had to put their horses in?

Somebody needs to look or try to remember the timing. Sounds like somebody has a backdoor account and ran to computers sides by side. One logged in as their regular
account and the computer beside them logged on the admin/super user. This explains why they can't multitable and trying to dechiper all the cards/betting and info is tougher than 8 tabling and playing your 8 single hands(if that makes sense)


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stigmata
Carpal \'Tunnel


Reged: 08/12/04
Posts: 4817
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: NLfool]
      #12324614 - 10/02/07 05:53 AM

I'm still slightly bemused as to why & how a high-stakes fish could suddenly acquire a backdoor.

The best I can think of is this: A programmer/contractor working for Absolute first installs backdoor 1: This allows him to create large sums of money with a reasonable electronic trail within the system (e.g. it looks like it has been deposited etc.). Later, he installs backdoor2: The hole-card reader.

Is this reasonable or outlandish? Basically I'm arguing that AP should already be aware of a hole in their accounts prior to this latest problem

Edited by stigmata (10/02/07 05:53 AM)


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Cucumber
stranger


Reged: 08/22/07
Posts: 17
Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: suzzer99]
      #12325863 - 10/02/07 10:03 AM

I'm by no means a high stakes poker player, however I know my way around computers and actually worked for a few years as a computer security expert.

I have no idea of the security of the sites such as AP, however it is common knowledge (at least among initiated people such as me) that a LOT of sites and networks with very hardened security have been broken into, sometimes multiple times (I'm thinking of the world biggest banks, military institutions of leading countries, etc).

Once the security of a site compromised, a skilled, motivated intruder can do a lot of damage and sometimes gain access to the most sensitive information. There are plenty of very skilled pirates in the world, and if I was one of them, online gambling sites would probably be my premium targets, because:

1. Those sites are plenty, all can not be unbreakable.
2. Money on these sites is plenty and being traded constantly between accounts for small, medium and large sums.
3. You can steal money and make it look like nothing wrong happened (beating people at the games). It's pirate heaven.

Given those reasons, it would not surprise me if poker sites were under constant attack by the pirates from all over the world. Their security must be hardened, but there are so many ways to crack a system...Employees often being the path of least resistance.

Once in a system, the pirate could very easily set up a system that would let them know the hole cards of people they want. So much money is at stake that I can very well imagine a pirate putting a lot of time and effort to make a snooping system as close to be undetectable as possible - and that can be real damn stealth.

The remark of the AP's employee about "encryption" is void. The encryption will secure to some extent the data between the site and the client computer. The client computer itself is not more secure because of that encryption, nor is the poker site itself. A pirate breaking into the site would not worry about the encryption as it would not concern him at all. The remark about "data about other people hole cards not being sent to one's computer" is also silly for too many reasons to type.

My best suggestion would be to indeeed avoid playing on the sites that you suspect might be compromised. There is little chance of a big poker site (read: money making machine) admit to being cracked - this would be too much trouble.


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mntbikr15
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Reged: 05/05/04
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: Cucumber]
      #12390233 - 10/06/07 07:25 PM

Seif admits to chip dumping

Saw this while railing 100.200


You're connected to our server. Enjoy your game.
MARK SEIF: yes i have been getting reports all week
<< Result for Hand 782582530 >>
STAYINSCHOOL wins ($1198.00) with (Three of a kind, jacks).
STAYINSCHOOL: will i get my money back from them?
MARK SEIF: accts frozen
STAYINSCHOOL: cool
KRATOSROUSE: yall should also watch out for flash fever
MARK SEIF: no indication that security has been compromised
<< Result for Hand 782583098 >>
STAYINSCHOOL wins ($798.00 chips).
KRATOSROUSE: he plays three names at the same time
STAYINSCHOOL: ic
<< Result for Hand 782583618 >>
MARK SEIF wins ($150.00 chips).
MARK SEIF: bt definitely wierd stuff and defintely chip dumping
<< Result for Hand 782583780 >>
MARK SEIF wins ($798.00) with (One pair, fives).
KRATOSROUSE: but nevermindi guess i do not exist because im on the rail
<< Result for Hand 782584223 >>
MARK SEIF wins ($2098.00) with (Flush, ace high).
KRATOSROUSE: gl everyone
STAYINSCHOOL: so there is a chance i get money back right?
STAYINSCHOOL: the money i lost to those guys
CJ AND TJ: hello mark from a big fan of yours
<< Result for Hand 782584849 >>
MARK SEIF wins ($198.00 chips).
MR STR8: MARK DOSENT TALK....AND THAT CHANCE IS FAT
MARK SEIF: i dont know stay i dont know enough about ur situation speci
<< Result for Hand 782585479 >>
MARK SEIF wins ($398.00 chips).
STAYINSCHOOL: well i got killed hu by them
STAYINSCHOOL: and some ring games
<< Result for Hand 782585922 >>
PIESANG wins ($598.00 chips).
MARK SEIF: ok will ask that it be checked out
<< Result for Hand 782586220 >>
PIESANG wins ($200.00 chips).
STAYINSCHOOL: thanks
<< Result for Hand 782586464 >>
STAYINSCHOOL wins ($150.00 chips).
MARK SEIF: yw


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daryn
Hit and run artist


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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: mntbikr15]
      #12391777 - 10/06/07 10:08 PM

"seif admits to chip dumping" is kind of misleading

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Tryptamean
old hand


Reged: 12/06/05
Posts: 1186
Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: daryn]
      #12393003 - 10/06/07 11:55 PM

Quote:

"seif admits to chip dumping" is kind of misleading



MARK SEIF: bt definitely wierd stuff and defintely chip dumping

doesnt seem very misleading?


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scorer
Carpal \'Tunnel


Reged: 01/13/06
Posts: 2530
Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: Tryptamean]
      #12393443 - 10/07/07 12:42 AM

AP is still and lets face it will never even address the possible security breakdown or internal fraud of these accts.

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milesdyson
Bet, Raise, Pray


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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: Tryptamean]
      #12393601 - 10/07/07 01:07 AM

it sounds like he's saying seif admitted to chip dumping.

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daryn
Hit and run artist


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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: milesdyson]
      #12394130 - 10/07/07 02:19 AM

Quote:

it sounds like he's saying seif admitted to chip dumping.




ding!


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mntbikr15
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 05/05/04
Posts: 1862
Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: daryn]
      #12396574 - 10/07/07 11:12 AM

Quote:

"seif admits to chip dumping" is kind of misleading




This is a fair point, I cross posted in BBV and was run through the ringer for the same thing. As victor pointed out there my english isnt wrong, but Ill agree it IS misleading.

Regardless, I thought this was big enough to bring the whole thing back up...because unfortunatly its been swept under the rug already.

Has anyone had anymore dialogue with AP? Sounds strange, Seif saying no breach of security but than saying he will look into getting stay's money back, "wierd stuff", etc.


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Coy_Roy
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Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: scorer]
      #12478248 - 10/12/07 07:27 PM

Quote:

AP is still and lets face it will never even address the possible security breakdown or internal fraud of these accts.





http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...=0#Post12478109


AP's Offcial Response to Allegations

Official Absolute Poker Response To Player Fraud Allegations

Absolute Poker takes all allegations of player fraud and collusion extremely seriously. Fair play and security are of paramount importance to us. Our Security and Fraud Department is dedicated to ensuring that everyone on the site has a fair opportunity to win, and that no improper methods, devices, programs and/or other unfair advantages are ever utilized in our games.

We were greatly concerned by a recent thread on the 2+2 forums along with emails and other communications we received, regarding alleged player fraud. We thank the vigilant players who reported this matter to us, giving us an opportunity to investigate these serious allegations. We spent extensive resources thoroughly investigating and analyzing our players’ claims. While our investigation is ongoing, we feel that we have enough information at this point to share with you some of our findings.

Please be advised, that we will continue to investigate each and every claim of wrong-doing on an individual basis and we will report any further significant findings that are appropriate for public review. Also, please keep in mind, while we endeavor to provide as much information as possible on a public level, we take our players’ privacy issues very seriously, and will never compromise this. As a matter of Company policy, Absolute Poker never divulges personal information about our players nor do we make public any hand information that did not go to a showdown, ever. As a result, we are limited in terms of the level of information that we can provide for public review.

In response to the allegations, we froze the accounts of the players in question while we performed an extensive investigation. The result of our investigation is that we found no evidence that any of Absolute Poker’s redundant and varying levels of game client security were compromised. In other words, we have determined with reasonable certainty that it is impossible for any player or employee to see hole cards as was alleged. There is no part of the technology that allows for a “superuser” account, and there is no way for any person to influence the game software to their advantage. We base this finding on a thorough security check on a technological level, coupled with a thorough investigation of hand histories including those that did not go to a showdown. As a part of our investigation, we also tested the integrity of our certified random number generator (“RNG”.) We determined that our RNG was not compromised either.

Details of the investigation

We combed through all hands involving the accounts that were mentioned in the online forums. Please note that only a select number of hands were featured in the threads. Our ongoing investigation continues to show that there were countless instances where a somewhat unorthodox poker strategy resulted in a loss. Allegations that the player accounts at issue “always guessed right” are unfounded.

We examined screen shots from Poker Tracker Software that displayed an “infinite” river aggression factor for one of the player accounts at issue. We examined similar screen shots which showed a lower but still relatively high river aggression factor. We were very concerned by this anomaly. Accordingly, we reviewed each and every hand that this player played during the relevant time period and determined that while the play was extremely aggressive, particularly on the river, there were several instances where the player merely called on the river. Thus, the allegation that the player accounts at issue “never called on the river, they either raised or folded” are also without merit.

With respect to the allegation of chip dumping, we have determined that chip dumping by at least one of the accounts at issue, did in fact, take place. We have determined that the chip dumping was made to several seemingly unrelated accounts. We are continuing to investigate this issue.

Conclusion

A ‘super-user’ account does not exist in our software. Absolute Poker was created by poker players who value security and fair play. The back-end of the Absolute Poker software prevents the possibility of any such feature. Our game client only receives data regarding an individual’s hand and no other player hole cards are ever visible – by anyone – except in the event of a showdown. Having said that, we will continue this investigation as well as look into any other allegations of wrong-doing. If appropriate, we will freeze funds and reimburse effected players.

Absolute Poker remains a 100% secure place to play. We value all of our players and we will continue to provide our community with a safe, secure and exciting online poker experience.

The Absolute Poker Management


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whodaman
old hand


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Posts: 861
Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: Coy_Roy]
      #12493813 - 10/14/07 04:25 AM

http://www.pocketfives.com/AB0A6FCE-734B-425B-AA64-036D3A99D2CC.aspx
link is to hh of a superuser and all the other peoples holecards... abs is full of sh**


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j4lvlie
banned


Reged: 09/30/07
Posts: 135
Loc: England pl20
Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: DEAD ON IMPACT]
      #12528526 - 10/16/07 03:13 PM

3 words [censored]-A-P

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fsista
addict


Reged: 01/29/06
Posts: 623
Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: j4lvlie]
      #12562668 - 10/18/07 07:09 PM

This cannot be doubted. Totally sick. This kid (if it is a kid) is probably cooperating with the CEO or whatever of AP.

Remove any connections with AP from this site and do it now.


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homeyplaydis
stranger


Reged: 11/22/07
Posts: 2
Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: DEAD ON IMPACT]
      #13073603 - 11/22/07 10:30 AM

I thought this would be very interesting to ALL of you:


Absolute Poker: 'We Had a Security Breach'
October 19, 2007
Haley Hintze
Absolute Poker today issued a brief statement in the form of an e-mail, acknowledging that a security breach of some form had indeed occurred and giving credence to the allegations brought by a growing legion of poker players on various discussion forums.

The brief statement from Absolute comes as stories of the unfolding situation have crossed over into mainstream media outlets, including MSNBC and ABC. Reaction from posters on the various boards has been mixed, with many waiting until the appearance of the full statement from Absolute, which is expected to provide greater detail. The text of the e-mail from AP reads as follows:

Dear valued player,

Absolute Poker has identified an internal security breach that compromised our systems for a limited period of time. The cause of the breach has been determined and completely resolved. In addition, all necessary resources, both internal and external, have been engaged to ensure this does not happen again. Our investigation is not fully concluded, and we wish to thank the extended poker community for any and all assistance related to the matter.

Game integrity has always and continues to be of the utmost importance at Absolute Poker. The Management of Absolute Poker is appalled by these findings, and is committed to our players and to the integrity of our site and the online poker industry.

All players affected by the security breach will be identified during the audit process that has been initiated and all funds, including interest, will be returned. Absolute Poker would like to apologize for the recent events and is committed to diligently working with outside security firms, auditing firms, the extended poker community and the Kahnawake Gaming Commission to ensure the situation is entirely resolved.

A comprehensive statement will be forthcoming shortly providing more details of the situation.


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homeyplaydis
stranger


Reged: 11/22/07
Posts: 2
Re: high stakes absolute players [Re: Coy_Roy]
      #13073617 - 11/22/07 10:31 AM

Absolute Poker: 'We Had a Security Breach'
October 19, 2007
Haley Hintze
Absolute Poker today issued a brief statement in the form of an e-mail, acknowledging that a security breach of some form had indeed occurred and giving credence to the allegations brought by a growing legion of poker players on various discussion forums.

The brief statement from Absolute comes as stories of the unfolding situation have crossed over into mainstream media outlets, including MSNBC and ABC. Reaction from posters on the various boards has been mixed, with many waiting until the appearance of the full statement from Absolute, which is expected to provide greater detail. The text of the e-mail from AP reads as follows:

Dear valued player,

Absolute Poker has identified an internal security breach that compromised our systems for a limited period of time. The cause of the breach has been determined and completely resolved. In addition, all necessary resources, both internal and external, have been engaged to ensure this does not happen again. Our investigation is not fully concluded, and we wish to thank the extended poker community for any and all assistance related to the matter.

Game integrity has always and continues to be of the utmost importance at Absolute Poker. The Management of Absolute Poker is appalled by these findings, and is committed to our players and to the integrity of our site and the online poker industry.

All players affected by the security breach will be identified during the audit process that has been initiated and all funds, including interest, will be returned. Absolute Poker would like to apologize for the recent events and is committed to diligently working with outside security firms, auditing firms, the extended poker community and the Kahnawake Gaming Commission to ensure the situation is entirely resolved.

A comprehensive statement will be forthcoming shortly providing more details of the situation.


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