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XChamp
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Reged: 10/19/04
Posts: 555
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Quote:
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"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." Sinclair Lewis.
And another thing, despite its apparent consensus today, yoo believers in America being founded on "Christian" values have read your bible havent you? You would then know that the "christian" part of the bible (the new testament) contains absolutely ZERO proscriptions for how to form a government, run a country, or make civil laws. This was a well known and hotly debated subject at the time of the founding fathers. Please do a small amount of research on the Founding of Rhode Island by Roger Williams if you doubt me - he struggled with the issue of how to organize a "christian state" all his life and finally gave up.
The Gospels were written by a sect that never expected to have secular power and all the affirmations in the gospels implore christians to reject secular power, give ALL their possessions to the poor and await the imminent coming of the Kingdom of God. A pretty tough way to run a society dont you think? The real debate has thus always been how much Jewish law do we use? But even that has been hypocritical, as no one is pushing for a constitutional amendment requiring all males to be circumcised.
The use of religious belief to stir up political passions and repressions is indeed as old as human history. Our founders knew that quite well and decided to try something new: a society based on reason and secular law.
When FOF rejects reason and secular law, instead insisting on faith and their interpertation of god's law, they are being un-american, pure and simple.
Skallagrim
Every Christian should think of that. When you have to go out into the world, you have to struggle with those issues on what you encounter. I was lucky in college to have a very awesome class on natural politics and The Bible as a political document was part of it. Its like trying to figure out Shakespeare's politics, its hard. It does come down to what you say, you are called as an individual to give up the world, die to self, and take the cross and follow Christ. If you are really harsh and strict, any of us who have jobs and keep money and ignore duress in the world are sinning. A good place to look as well is Dostoyevsky. Brothers Karamazov, open it, start at "The Brothers make friends" and read thru "The Grand Inquisitor".
No matter what denomination or faith you espouse, Jesus refused repeatedly secular authority, and any interpretation towards politics has to honour that. If you want to look at the Old Testament, look at Isaih. Chapter and verse are elude me at the moment, but Aquinas references the part where when an evil leader is presiding over a nation, people should look at their own sins, and that God chooses who will rule over them, and not YOU. If God wants Bill CLinton president, Bill CLinton will be Pres. Not whoever FoF endorses. If God wants a policy he will move the leader to that policy, look at Pharoah in Egypt(Pharoah only hardened his heart after the first plague, then God hardened it).
Nothing makes me angrier as a Christian than hearing these little fake ass, holier than thou, home schooled, brainwashed young fucktards say Gambling is a sin. A perfectly nice girl who works at Starbucks said that and I lit into her and I hope I made her cry for saying something that stupid. Its regrettable no one seems to want an education to look at The Bible and what God says, they rely on mass produced commercialized brainwashing. Catholics have it a bit better I think, as they have always been strict in theology with high educational standards, but Protestants have always been prey to charismatic leaders who
spout drivel for donations and now votes. I had to bite my tongue at a funeral recently when some guy was BRAGGING he had a degree from Southeastern Seminary.
There are some good points in here. As a Christian, I frequently struggle with what laws should and should not be enacted in this country. Over the past few years I have realized that just because I believe something is right does not mean it should be a law. I think homosexuality is wrong, but that does not mean that I am screaming for it to be outlawed. Why? Because I cannot easily demonstrate that it is directly harmful to a secular society. This same reasoning applies to great deal of other topics.
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LuckyTxGuy
old hand
Reged: 01/04/06
Posts: 1198
Loc: Deep East Texas
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I'm sorry for my lapse in judgment. I once again forgot that 2+2 is a breeding ground for not just atheists but anti-Christians. This starts at the top with Sklansky and works its way down. For me to ever be convinced after all I've read, all I've studied, that this nation was founded by a bunch of people who had no respect for God and no Christian morals will never happen. Just not gonna happen. I again say, you have no clue about history if you think that Christians have a greater control today in our government than they did at any other point in our nations history. And to the people who have the nerve to say that in the 1700's when these men mentioned our "Creator" that they "could have been talking about anybody" is such a freaking joke.
We can agree to disagree and quit wasting each other's time. Have a great week! 
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TheEngineer
PPA Board Member
Reged: 04/04/05
Posts: 2730
Loc: USA
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Quote:
I'm sorry for my lapse in judgment. I once again forgot that 2+2 is a breeding ground for not just atheists but anti-Christians. This starts at the top with Sklansky and works its way down. For me to ever be convinced after all I've read, all I've studied, that this nation was founded by a bunch of people who had no respect for God and no Christian morals will never happen. Just not gonna happen. I again say, you have no clue about history if you think that Christians have a greater control today in our government than they did at any other point in our nations history. And to the people who have the nerve to say that in the 1700's when these men mentioned our "Creator" that they "could have been talking about anybody" is such a freaking joke.
We can agree to disagree and quit wasting each other's time. Have a great week!
Relax, bro. FoF came after us and our livelihood, not the reverse. We have every right to call them on it.
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Cactus Jack
veteran
Reged: 12/23/04
Posts: 1423
Loc: Somewhere on the Strip
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Saw this on a bumper sticker and thought it wasn't the first time I've seen truth right in front of me:
"I'm not a Liberal. I'm well educated."
Great thread, guys, and I actually learned quite a bit from it. Good job.
Txguy, sorry you feel the way you do. Unfortunately, your reaction is pretty typical. The negativity would be appalling to your Teacher. (That's what he was called, you know? Teacher? Rabbi.) There can be no discussion because since we don't believe as you believe, we must be wrong. That's kinda sad.
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Legislurker
old hand
Reged: 05/05/07
Posts: 728
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Quote:
I'm sorry for my lapse in judgment. I once again forgot that 2+2 is a breeding ground for not just atheists but anti-Christians. This starts at the top with Sklansky and works its way down. For me to ever be convinced after all I've read, all I've studied, that this nation was founded by a bunch of people who had no respect for God and no Christian morals will never happen. Just not gonna happen. I again say, you have no clue about history if you think that Christians have a greater control today in our government than they did at any other point in our nations history. And to the people who have the nerve to say that in the 1700's when these men mentioned our "Creator" that they "could have been talking about anybody" is such a freaking joke.
We can agree to disagree and quit wasting each other's time. Have a great week!
I don't know what bs they spoonfeed babies in school now but this country, and every ideal in its founding is pure and simple the product of The Enlightenment. Maybe some of those guys were Christians, you can argue most all of them either way, Im conflicted that its NOT a Christian founding, but after a long self education, Im happy because established Christianity has [censored] every country its come in contact with. You think maybe its God's way of telling us not to sully His Word by trying to rule with it?
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Skallagrim
old hand
Reged: 11/29/06
Posts: 1071
Loc: The Live Free or Die State
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Thank you legislurker. And to luckyTxguy, just because I can demonstrate from historical record that your version of history is incorrect, doesnt mean I think you're a bad guy. A nice weekend to you too.
The great success of the US as an "immigrant nation" is due precisely to our traditiional of religous tolerance and church/state separation. You modern "christians" ( I put that in quotations because somewhere else I would try and demonstrate that FOF's version of christianity is opposite of what the Gospels really teach), need to remember that there used to be a lot of christian on christian violence and wars. Do you really think that if you were succesfull in enshrining one version of christianity as law the religious wars would never happen again? And what if the enshrined version is not your particular version?
Individual decisions based on a morality derived from faith are a great thing.
Trying to turn that faith into a system of laws enforced by the state is the first step to fascism/despotism and has always (historically) led to a society's ultimate failure or eclipse by other more free (hence more adapatable) societies.
Decisions of state, as I read the Bible, are precisely in the domain of the "ungodly." They are thus best based on a reasoned approach as to what works for the greatest good and still protects the rights of individuals to be individuals. Only by agreeing to this can members of different faiths also manage to live peacefully and productively side by side. This, at it its best, is what America is all about and why I love this country (even though I think it has gotten pretty screwed up lately - mostly by certain persons' misguided faith - and by that I am not referring to LuckyTxGuy).
Skallagrim
PS to xchamp: Your conclusions are precisely the kind of conclusions our more religious founding fathers would make and did make (although homosexuality would have been even too hot of topic for them at that time). I like the way you think, and remember that the same constitution that protects the basic civil rights of gays also protects your church from having to accept gays or give them equal church rights. This would not be so in a "Christian Country" where the majority of "christians" accepted gays equally and so told all christians to act that same way.
Edited by Skallagrim (08/16/07 12:19 AM)
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Cactus Jack
veteran
Reged: 12/23/04
Posts: 1423
Loc: Somewhere on the Strip
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One of the true patriots said, "if the Constitution protects a scumbag like me, you don't have to worry."
I can watch porn, play poker, drink a beer and smoke a cigar. I choose to do only one of those four things. As long as all four remain legal, I can make a choice. Make any of them illegal, which do I choose? Who would choose for me?
Americans have a choice. That's what makes it what it is.
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Kurn, son of Mogh
norgh
Reged: 09/26/02
Posts: 9146
Loc: Rhode Island and Providence Pl...
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The post says reply to you only because you posted last before mine.
Ah, the "quick reply" glitch. 
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Kurn, son of Mogh
norgh
Reged: 09/26/02
Posts: 9146
Loc: Rhode Island and Providence Pl...
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Quote:
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Guiliani-too many wives, or Romney-Mormon).
Too many wives or Mormon. Hmmm. Sounds like the same problem to me. 
Sorry, couldn't resist.
New campaign slogan: "Rudy Giuliani - One Wife at a Time."
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XChamp
addict
Reged: 10/19/04
Posts: 555
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I agree with LuckyTxGuy that 2+2 tends to be anti-Christian. There is a certain kind of hate associated with those tendencies that really upsets me.
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