TheEye
enthusiast
Reged: 05/27/07
Posts: 238
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Hello everybody.
This is what happened some time ago.
After the end of a tourney the winner(who actually kicked me out of the final table and got a prize worth $20k) tranferred to my account $1000 which i believed was his goodwill and I was thankful to him. However 5 minutes later i receive an email from pokerstars saying that, the transfer was a mistake and was intented for another player with a similar username, so they took the money out of my account.
I wrote back to pokerstars(as i believe i should) telling them that they could not just take money out of my account without my permission because supposedly a player made a mistake, as mistakes in poker involving real money cannot be rectified.
Suppose i was playing 100/200 nlhm and by mistake I call my A high for $10k in a $10k pot against someone elses quads..or even better, suppose a stud session where my opponents open cards beat my best hand however i call his bet on the river does that make me eligible to request from pokerstars to credit back my money because i made a mistake?I DON'T BELIEVE SO.
what do you think?
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gordongecko
member
Reged: 06/03/07
Posts: 151
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They can do whatever they want with your funds, I think their tos pretty much says so, not to mention the fact that even if they are in the wrong - they are in another [censored] country etc. In this case though it really was just a fluke, why are you being so cunty about someones mistake being fixed, its not like you won the money or something, it was found money in the first place.
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antisocialgrace
addict
Reged: 03/01/07
Posts: 599
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how would you feel if you were the player it was intended for? maybe they made a deal. i you really think this way I would hate to know you.
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TheEye
enthusiast
Reged: 05/27/07
Posts: 238
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well dude,
as i learned since i was a kid, "founder keeper", and that is a general notion. What do you mean they can do anything they want with my funds? how can i trust them if they can dig their hands in my pocket whenever they want to? whether it was a fluke or not people get lucky and you can not take that away from them
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heater
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 02/27/06
Posts: 2535
Loc: Behind enemy lines
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Quote:
what do you think?
I think your example sucks. You're talking apples and oranges now. This didn't happen during a hand. It's an interaccount transfer.
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Guthrie
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 02/23/05
Posts: 2871
Loc: Underground
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If someone accidentally deposits $1,000 into your bank account, then immediately notifies the bank of the error, do you really think the bank will let you keep the money?
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gordongecko
member
Reged: 06/03/07
Posts: 151
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then dont trust them and play at another site, you didnt win the money, so I doubt you will get much sympathy here, since you did absolutely nothing to deserve it in the first place.
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heater
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 02/27/06
Posts: 2535
Loc: Behind enemy lines
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Quote:
If someone accidentally deposits $1,000 into your bank account, then immediately notifies the bank of the error, do you really think the bank will let you keep the money?
If you correctly cite the "founder keeper" rule, they will.
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cmyr
old hand
Reged: 01/15/06
Posts: 1031
Loc: boredomed
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it's true, this was set as legal precedent in the Supreme Court's famous Founder v. Keeper ruling in the early 30s.
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MarkGreb
member
Reged: 09/03/05
Posts: 140
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The "founder keeper" rule is the basis of civilized society.
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gordongecko
member
Reged: 06/03/07
Posts: 151
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yeah some idiot left his keys in his running car at the gas station, thats like a free car for me right? I mean founders keepers would hold up in a court of law im sure, so [censored] grand theft auto.
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TheEye
enthusiast
Reged: 05/27/07
Posts: 238
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the tourney was some kind of a ps promo 10kfpp buy-in winner took $20k and 2-9 just $160 ...while having a chat i mentioned that it was a bit extreme for the winner to be taking 20k while the others just less than $200 and as he kicked me out i believed it was his goodwill to offer 1k compensation or something....anyway thats not the point...the poin is that while the money was in my account (money i made plans for) were taken back without my consent. thats the main issue here...i want to know why would ps have the right to take my money without my permission...and somebody mentioned if there is a bank tranfer mistake the bank can rectify that problem..thats not correct because if you are digitally transfering money from you bank account to someone else responsibility is on you to enter the correct details and the bank gives you no guarantees that if you make a mistake you can have your money back
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tangled
enthusiast
Reged: 02/10/06
Posts: 318
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Quote:
well dude,
as i learned since i was a kid, "founder keeper", and that is a general notion. What do you mean they can do anything they want with my funds? how can i trust them if they can dig their hands in my pocket whenever they want to? whether it was a fluke or not people get lucky and you can not take that away from them
Actually, if you find someone else's property and you want to keep it, there is a prescribed list of things you need to do for it to be yours legally. And even if there weren't, common decency would dictate that you don't just keep something of value that you have gotten by mistake.
"Finders keepers, losers weepers" is only the rule among toddlers.
You are wrong on so many levels.
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edfurlong
stink finger
Reged: 02/25/04
Posts: 13711
Loc: Stabbing your probiscus
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Quote:
i believed it was his goodwill to offer 1k compensation or something....anyway thats not the point.
Yeah, but it wasn't. This is really clear cut, you are wrong and nobody that isn't in to paint chips is going to agree with you.
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Mitch Evans
old hand
Reged: 07/18/05
Posts: 1102
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Quote:
i want to know why would ps have the right to take my money without my permission.
Please come back when they actually take your money.
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Mike Haven
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 09/02/02
Posts: 7043
Loc: The Zoo, ATF, EB, etc
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It's actually "Finders keepers, losers weepers", and it has been proved beyond all doubt that 'when it comes to lost "movable" property - like cash or pottery or a jar of coffee beans - the law isn't really "finders keepers, losers weepers." It's more like "finders may become keepers but losers still have the best claim, unless they've abandoned the item."'
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jason6633
newbie
Reged: 06/16/07
Posts: 29
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Quote:
...i want to know why would ps have the right to take my money without my permission...
It wasn't your money, plain and simple. You are complaining not that stars took YOUR money, you are complaining they took back someone elses money and gave it back to the rightful owner. I think stars should find a way to fix your account so that when you win pots it randomly gives them to someone else, now that would be entertainment!
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Losing all
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 2839
Loc: Clavius
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Quote:
well dude,
as i learned since i was a kid, "founder keeper", and that is a general notion.
clown shoe lives!
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gordongecko
member
Reged: 06/03/07
Posts: 151
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how the [censored] did you "have plans" for money you had less than 5 minutes. It isnt like they waited a week to take it from you, even then they would be right, but [censored].
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Losing all
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 2839
Loc: Clavius
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Quote:
how the [censored] did you "have plans" for money you had less than 5 minutes. It isnt like they waited a week to take it from you, even then they would be right, but [censored].
Maybe you can get one of your high priced corporate lawyers to explain the general notion of founder keeper to you, gordo.
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TheEye
enthusiast
Reged: 05/27/07
Posts: 238
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Quote:
how the [censored] did you "have plans" for money you had less than 5 minutes. It isnt like they waited a week to take it from you, even then they would be right, but [censored].
suppose you win 10 million bucks. The instant you win that dont you make plans immediately of bying that exotic car you always wanted?...
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ShaneP
journeyman
Reged: 08/05/06
Posts: 80
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Quote:
Quote:
how the [censored] did you "have plans" for money you had less than 5 minutes. It isnt like they waited a week to take it from you, even then they would be right, but [censored].
suppose you win 10 million bucks. The instant you win that dont you make plans immediately of bying that exotic car you always wanted?...
OP, I'd be on your side if the plans for your money included all the following:
Getting 10 gallons of hydroflouric acid and taking a bath in it, while at the same time:
buying a bottle of drano and chasing it with bleach.
Oh yeah, and something about cooking with grease.
And yes, I might make plans with money I legitimately won, but that's not the case with what you're talking about.
I seriously hope you're a troll, cause I'd hate to think there's people like you out there. Of course, I do know better.
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TheEye
enthusiast
Reged: 05/27/07
Posts: 238
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
how the [censored] did you "have plans" for money you had less than 5 minutes. It isnt like they waited a week to take it from you, even then they would be right, but [censored].
I would really not care much if you i am an a$$ for making this discussion...and btw i havent found anything and kept it without the owners consent....the owner actually gave me his money with his will...whether he made a mistake or not i wouldnt care less...
suppose you win 10 million bucks. The instant you win that dont you make plans immediately of bying that exotic car you always wanted?...
OP, I'd be on your side if the plans for your money included all the following:
Getting 10 gallons of hydroflouric acid and taking a bath in it, while at the same time:
buying a bottle of drano and chasing it with bleach.
Oh yeah, and something about cooking with grease.
And yes, I might make plans with money I legitimately won, but that's not the case with what you're talking about.
I seriously hope you're a troll, cause I'd hate to think there's people like you out there. Of course, I do know better.
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Oliver Nipples
Banned
Reged: 06/09/07
Posts: 486
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In this guys defense, who could the winner of this have possibly sent 1K to that ironically has the same name as the guy he beat in 2nd. I do see that Stars took off that "We don't get involved in disputes" language off the transfer screen. Looks like you're SOL, OP but it's a tough sell that the first place finisher meant to send 1K to someone with a similar name, probably made the gesture then realized it's a decent amount of money and freaked.
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tangled
enthusiast
Reged: 02/10/06
Posts: 318
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A more applicable saying to fit this situation than - finder's keeper's loser's weeper's - is:
When 50 people tell you you're drunk,
LIE DOWN.
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TheEye
enthusiast
Reged: 05/27/07
Posts: 238
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Quote:
In this guys defense, who could the winner of this have possibly sent 1K to that ironically has the same name as the guy he beat in 2nd. I do see that Stars took off that "We don't get involved in disputes" language off the transfer screen. Looks like you're SOL, OP but it's a tough sell that the first place finisher meant to send 1K to someone with a similar name, probably made the gesture then realized it's a decent amount of money and freaked.
point
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TheEye
enthusiast
Reged: 05/27/07
Posts: 238
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Final email from ps
"The error was not on our side but rather the sender input the incorrect user
ID which was caught and corrected. I am sorry but we do have the right to
correct mistakes and your insistence to get funds you did not deserve are
fruitless.
We reversed this transaction that should have never been completed.
However if you feel what we did was wrong your more than welcome to find
another site. I can assure you though if it was you who made the mistake
you would hold a different perspective of how this situation should be
rectified.
Our decision on this matter is final and we will not credit your account
those funds. We will never take money that is yours but in this case the
money was not intended for you.
Regards,
Trent
PokerStars Support Team"
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ChipFerFree
addict
Reged: 12/15/06
Posts: 425
Loc: Chucktown
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Really the point isn't the money which isn't his and he should let it just go. The point is that PS played with his funds without asking him. I'm gonna go find the other thread where FTP refused to touch funds in a mistaken transfer situation much like this one. Guy was beatching the exact opposite -- demanding FTP go get the dough.
Casino apparently can't win in this situation -- wow that's a first...
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JediMyndTrik
newbie
Reged: 06/06/07
Posts: 49
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TheEye
enthusiast
Reged: 05/27/07
Posts: 238
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even though i am a nova on ps i will probably look for another site now as i strongly believe that ps is wrong in this case and they dont have the right to intervene..i will look a bit more into the subject even though i sound like an a$$because i dont belive that people who benefted from my mistakes will come back to me and give me money back in any case and that is the notion for the majority of the population on this planet.
will FT or party give me the best rb from playing compared to ps?
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TheEye
enthusiast
Reged: 05/27/07
Posts: 238
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Quote:
Really the point isn't the money which isn't his and he should let it just go. The point is that PS played with his funds without asking him. I'm gonna go find the other thread where FTP refused to touch funds in a mistaken transfer situation much like this one. Guy was beatching the exact opposite -- demanding FTP go get the dough.
Casino apparently can't win in this situation -- wow that's a first...
i honestly dont give a bloody [censored] about a thousand bucks..thats money spend in a few hours in some cases..its the principle behind all these i am insisting on
i would appreciate if you could find that thread..
Edited by Mike Haven (08/05/07 09:57 AM)
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Seether
old hand
Reged: 06/18/04
Posts: 894
Loc: Tucson, AZ
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YSSCKY
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primetime32
veteran
Reged: 05/04/05
Posts: 1251
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Quote:
Quote:
Really the point isn't the money which isn't his and he should let it just go. The point is that PS played with his funds without asking him. I'm gonna go find the other thread where FTP refused to touch funds in a mistaken transfer situation much like this one. Guy was beatching the exact opposite -- demanding FTP go get the dough.
Casino apparently can't win in this situation -- wow that's a first...
i honestly dont give a bloody [censored] about a thousand bucks..thats money spend in a few hours in some cases..its the principle behind all these i am insisting on
i would appreciate if you could find that thread..
The principle is that this guy transfered you money by mistake and PS rectified the situation. You were not promised the money and you gave nothing in consideration for the money.
You basically have no leg to stand on.
Edited by Mike Haven (08/05/07 09:58 AM)
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TheEye
enthusiast
Reged: 05/27/07
Posts: 238
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Really the point isn't the money which isn't his and he should let it just go. The point is that PS played with his funds without asking him. I'm gonna go find the other thread where FTP refused to touch funds in a mistaken transfer situation much like this one. Guy was beatching the exact opposite -- demanding FTP go get the dough.
Casino apparently can't win in this situation -- wow that's a first...
i honestly dont give a bloody [censored] about a thousand bucks..thats money spend in a few hours in some cases..its the principle behind all these i am insisting on
i would appreciate if you could find that thread..
The principle is that this guy transfered you money by mistake and PS rectified the situation. You were not promised the money and you gave nothing in consideration for the money.
You basically have no leg to stand on.
btw how do i know it was a mistake and that he did not just regret about the transfer?...
Edited by Mike Haven (08/05/07 09:59 AM)
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Mitch Evans
old hand
Reged: 07/18/05
Posts: 1102
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Quote:
Final email from ps
"The error was not on our side but rather the sender input the incorrect user
ID which was caught and corrected. I am sorry but we do have the right to
correct mistakes and your insistence to get funds you did not deserve are
fruitless.
We reversed this transaction that should have never been completed.
However if you feel what we did was wrong your more than welcome to find
another site. I can assure you though if it was you who made the mistake
you would hold a different perspective of how this situation should be
rectified.
Our decision on this matter is final and we will not credit your account
those funds. We will never take money that is yours but in this case the
money was not intended for you.
Regards,
Trent
PokerStars Support Team"
Sweet. Could you post the obnoxious emails that resulted in this email?
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primetime32
veteran
Reged: 05/04/05
Posts: 1251
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Really the point isn't the money which isn't his and he should let it just go. The point is that PS played with his funds without asking him. I'm gonna go find the other thread where FTP refused to touch funds in a mistaken transfer situation much like this one. Guy was beatching the exact opposite -- demanding FTP go get the dough.
Casino apparently can't win in this situation -- wow that's a first...
i honestly dont give a bloody [censored] about a thousand bucks..thats money spend in a few hours in some cases..its the principle behind all these i am insisting on
i would appreciate if you could find that thread..
The principle is that this guy transfered you money by mistake and PS rectified the situation. You were not promised the money and you gave nothing in consideration for the money.
You basically have no leg to stand on.
btw how do i know it was a mistake and that he did not just regret about the transfer?...
True, I would like to see Stars prove that the money was later transferred to someone else. But i highly doubt they would lie. Its not like they are benefiting from this transfer, either way.
Edited by Mike Haven (08/05/07 10:00 AM)
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RobAtticus
member
Reged: 04/16/07
Posts: 182
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You have no leg to stand on.
What if he made the transfer while you were asleep and it was corrected before you woke up? Would you still make a fuss?
It's not your money, it was never intended for you, and you do not know the sender's intent. They did not take your money, so your claim that PS is taking your money is idiotic.
Take your business to another site if you feel so wronged.
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Rainbow Warrior
addict
Reged: 09/13/02
Posts: 586
Loc: The Great White North
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Quote:
Final email from ps
"The error was not on our side but rather the sender input the incorrect user
ID which was caught and corrected. I am sorry but we do have the right to
correct mistakes and your insistence to get funds you did not deserve are
fruitless.
We reversed this transaction that should have never been completed.
However if you feel what we did was wrong your more than welcome to find
another site. I can assure you though if it was you who made the mistake
you would hold a different perspective of how this situation should be
rectified.
Our decision on this matter is final and we will not credit your account
those funds. We will never take money that is yours but in this case the
money was not intended for you.
Regards,
Trent
PokerStars Support Team"
To paraphrase (and the consensus is) "you're an idiot".
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ChipFerFree
addict
Reged: 12/15/06
Posts: 425
Loc: Chucktown
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And now for the opposite stance from a poker room:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...part=1&vc=1
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TheEye
enthusiast
Reged: 05/27/07
Posts: 238
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Quote:
And now for the opposite stance from a poker room:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...part=1&vc=1
great..thank you
i take out a few points
FTP email to customer
"Hello XXXX,
Thank you for contacting Full Tilt Poker Support with your player to player transfer error.
While I understand that you have made a mistake in entering the recipient for your player transfer, please be aware that the responsibility is on the sender to ensure that all necessary information is entered correctly.
That being said, we will contact the player on your behalf and request that they transfer the funds back to you. Please understand that if said player chooses not to comply to our request, they cannot be forced to return the funds and Full Tilt Poker cannot be held liable nor are we able to replace those funds.
We thank you for your understanding and hope that the player chooses to comply with your request."
IMO FT is absolutely right to say they will email the receiver and ask him whether he wants the money to be sent back...thats the correct think to do...
"at stars they give you the city name and ask if you are sure. at UB they match the first name and kick it back if you get the screename incorrect with the first name, at FTP they send the money instantly so long as there is a valid screename.
I transferred money mistakenly by one "l" or something one time, you are SOL."
there are measures to take in order to verify that the transfer is going to the correct person.
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ShaneP
journeyman
Reged: 08/05/06
Posts: 80
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And the point you should be taking from that thread is who agrees with the OP and who doesn't. Hint: most people think that what PS did was right and what FT does wasn't.
I just hope karma catches up with you.
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ChipFerFree
addict
Reged: 12/15/06
Posts: 425
Loc: Chucktown
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Although I dug that up -- I do agree with Shane -- PS rocks -- except when they turn on the doom switch 
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TheEye
enthusiast
Reged: 05/27/07
Posts: 238
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Quote:
And the point you should be taking from that thread is who agrees with the OP and who doesn't. Hint: most people think that what PS did was right and what FT does wasn't.
I just hope karma catches up with you.
karma and i are the same thing...
This is not about users oppinios but the correct way to deal with such matter...
In all honesty having seen the 2 emails send to us users by FT and PS, which do you belive is the most appropriate in the specific situation?
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ChipFerFree
addict
Reged: 12/15/06
Posts: 425
Loc: Chucktown
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PS
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primetime32
veteran
Reged: 05/04/05
Posts: 1251
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Quote:
And the point you should be taking from that thread is who agrees with the OP and who doesn't. Hint: most people think that what PS did was right and what FT does wasn't.
Hint: Most people jerk off to whatever Stars does and hate whatever FT does.
The real answer is that it is in the discretion of the site to do what it feels is fair. As long as they are consistent. Stars was no more correct that FT was.
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TheEye
enthusiast
Reged: 05/27/07
Posts: 238
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this is from PD t&s
4. YOUR REPRESENTATIONS AND WARRANTIES. Prior to your use of the Service and on an ongoing basis you represent, warrant, covenant and agree that:
4.1. You acknowledge that there is a risk of losing money when using the Service and that PokerStars has no responsibility to you for any such loss.
4.2. You agree that your use of the Service is at your sole option, discretion and risk.
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ShaneP
journeyman
Reged: 08/05/06
Posts: 80
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Quote:
Quote:
And the point you should be taking from that thread is who agrees with the OP and who doesn't. Hint: most people think that what PS did was right and what FT does wasn't.
I just hope karma catches up with you.
karma and i are the same thing...
This is not about users oppinios but the correct way to deal with such matter...
In all honesty having seen the 2 emails send to us users by FT and PS, which do you belive is the most appropriate in the specific situation?
PS, LDO
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ShaneP
journeyman
Reged: 08/05/06
Posts: 80
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Quote:
Quote:
And the point you should be taking from that thread is who agrees with the OP and who doesn't. Hint: most people think that what PS did was right and what FT does wasn't.
Hint: Most people jerk off to whatever Stars does and hate whatever FT does.
The real answer is that it is in the discretion of the site to do what it feels is fair. As long as they are consistent. Stars was no more correct that FT was.
Hint: there could be a reason people like what PS generally does and dislike what FT generally does. Just sayin'
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Sponger.
HEADS WILL ROLL
Reged: 05/20/04
Posts: 19136
Loc: San Diego
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Quote:
If someone accidentally deposits $200 into your bank account, then immediately notifies the bank of the error, do you really think the bank will let you keep the money?
Yes
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TheEye
enthusiast
Reged: 05/27/07
Posts: 238
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Quote:
Quote:
If someone accidentally deposits $1,000 into your bank account, then immediately notifies the bank of the error, do you really think the bank will let you keep the money?
lol..
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ChipFerFree
addict
Reged: 12/15/06
Posts: 425
Loc: Chucktown
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ok that was hilarious
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TheEye
enthusiast
Reged: 05/27/07
Posts: 238
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just got off the phone with a lawyer...
I hate to dissapoint you PS fans but the site acted totally improperly on this matter and legal action can be taken against pokerstars or any other site for withdrawing or confescating funds from ones account, where the individual has done nothing wrong in receiving that money.
In the case of the $1k the user that claims he mistakenly made a transfer to another user can have a claim on that money (from the beneficiary) and could get it back legally with sufficient evidence but would not be worth pursuing such a matter due to the expenses he will incur for taking this matter legally as I would not be liable for any legal expenses incurred even if the rule is that money were indeed transfered to me by mistake.
Now I will probably pursue the matter against PS if we believe its worth a try and be assured I will keep this forum informed on the final proceedings of this matter.
For future reference, keep in mind that no poker site has the right to take funds out of your account without your written consent if you as an individual have not acted improperly in any sitaution
Thank you for your responses. and to those of you who think i am a [censored], well thats just your oppinion(everybody has one)
Edited by Mike Haven (08/05/07 10:05 AM)
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edfurlong
stink finger
Reged: 02/25/04
Posts: 13711
Loc: Stabbing your probiscus
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Quote:
just got off the phone with a lawyer...
lolol
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mbpoker
old hand
Reged: 09/25/02
Posts: 970
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I just got of the phone with another lawyer, who said that your lawyer has no clue....
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TheEye
enthusiast
Reged: 05/27/07
Posts: 238
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Quote:
I just got of the phone with another lawyer, who said that your lawyer has no clue....
i guess thats his job
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TOOF DUCY?
journeyman
Reged: 06/11/07
Posts: 67
Loc: Red Sox Nation
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I think that $1000 means alot more to you than you lead on. It is ridiculous for you to even entertain suing PS over money that isn't even yours. Grow up - you lost - deal with it
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TheEye
enthusiast
Reged: 05/27/07
Posts: 238
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Quote:
I think that $1000 means alot more to you than you lead on. It is ridiculous for you to even entertain suing PS over money that isn't even yours. Grow up - you lost - deal with it
suing ps for $1000, you are right thats ridiculous..suing a company that supposedly keeps secure accounts for its customers but can withdraw your funds whenever they feel like a "mistake" was made is a bit more logical dont you think...anyway...i am getting a bit tired of this debate...i feel like we are off the subject a bit and i am countering people who believe i am [censored] and after $1000...
it was good getting a general view on this matter but i believe it is getting out of class...tc people...
Edited by Mike Haven (08/05/07 10:02 AM)
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TheRedRocket
enthusiast
Reged: 07/13/07
Posts: 313
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Quote:
just got off the phone with a lawyer...
I hate to dissapoint you PS fans but the site acted totally improperly on this matter and legal action can be taken against pokerstars or any other site for withdrawing or confescating funds from ones account, where the individual has done nothing wrong in receiving that money.
In the case of the $1k the user that claims he mistakenly made a transfer to another user can have a claim on that money (from the beneficiary) and could get it back legally with sufficient evidence but would not be worth pursuing such a matter due to the expenses he will incur for taking this matter legally as I would not be liable for any legal expenses incurred even if the rule is that money were indeed transfered to me by mistake.
Now I will probably pursue the matter against PS if we believe its worth a try and be assured I will keep this forum informed on the final proceedings of this matter.
For future reference, keep in mind that no poker site has the right to take funds out of your account without your written consent if you as an individual have not acted improperly in any sitaution
Thank you for your responses. and to those of you who think i am a [censored], well thats just your oppinion(everybody has one)
Edited by Mike Haven (08/05/07 10:03 AM)
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TheEye
enthusiast
Reged: 05/27/07
Posts: 238
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Quote:
just got off the phone with a lawyer...
I hate to dissapoint you PS fans but the site acted totally improperly on this matter and legal action can be taken against pokerstars or any other site for withdrawing or confescating funds from ones account, where the individual has done nothing wrong in receiving that money.
In the case of the $1k the user that claims he mistakenly made a transfer to another user can have a claim on that money (from the beneficiary) and could get it back legally with sufficient evidence but would not be worth pursuing such a matter due to the expenses he will incur for taking this matter legally as I would not be liable for any legal expenses incurred even if the rule is that money were indeed transfered to me by mistake.
Now I will probably pursue the matter against PS if we believe its worth a try and be assured I will keep this forum informed on the final proceedings of this matter.
For future reference, keep in mind that no poker site has the right to take funds out of your account without your written consent if you as an individual have not acted improperly in any sitaution
Thank you for your responses. and to those of you who think i am a [censored], well thats just your oppinion(everybody has one)
Edited by Mike Haven (08/05/07 10:07 AM)
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TOOF DUCY?
journeyman
Reged: 06/11/07
Posts: 67
Loc: Red Sox Nation
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Quote:
you mean my husband
That explains alot - either you have a vag or you have the ghey. Carry on
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Elvis57
newbie
Reged: 02/22/07
Posts: 36
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So now that explains it you are a dumb blonde. OH btw a lawyer will cost more than the 1k you never had.
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Oliver Nipples
Banned
Reged: 06/09/07
Posts: 486
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I just had sex with your lawyer.
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daryn
Hit and run artist
Reged: 04/24/03
Posts: 18335
Loc: Boston
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oh that explains a lot
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Nick B.
Member # 24
Reged: 09/02/02
Posts: 4001
Loc: AIM Nickb2p2
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Nobody owns a cat.
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Sevenfold
enthusiast
Reged: 01/02/07
Posts: 275
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I have a different problem, I was playing in this tourney and I cut a deal. We chopped and he was supposed to send me $1,000 after it was over. He never did. I have 17 kids to feed and I need that $1,000.
What do you guys think I should...
Never mind, it just arrived, thanks anyway.
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Barrin6
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 12/22/05
Posts: 3732
Loc: 100k hands 5ptbb+ nl1/2 b4 nl2...
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Though it may have been a mistake, I don't like pokerstar's stance on this. Allowing users to reverse trades allows scammers to scam people out of ftp-stars $$ exchanges. There should be no excuse for you to mistakenly transfer the money to a wrong person especially since stars has a measure to show the cities' name.
But to OP, you are an idiot.
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bap2086
addict
Reged: 10/17/06
Posts: 562
Loc: chicago
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Quote:
Though it may have been a mistake, I don't like pokerstar's stance on this. Allowing users to reverse trades allows scammers to scam people out of ftp-stars $$ exchanges. There should be no excuse for you to mistakenly transfer the money to a wrong person especially since stars has a measure to show the cities' name.
But to OP, you are an idiot.
very good post i was about to write one similar.
stars also shows you the persons town before u send. basically making it almost impossible to send to the wrong person unless your retarded.
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brendanb438
Mo Prop Free Monies
Reged: 01/06/06
Posts: 2636
Loc: Penalty Box at Covers
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OP needs customer title like "PS be taken my monies"
Wow, this has to be a troll. Because first off no lawyer would have told this clown such info. No Nova player on PS would be this stupid and have this big of a hard on against PS. Also I mean "Finders Keepers"??? Are you [censored] serious? You know nothing about U.S. law or World law. There are plenty of documented cases of a person or company receiving money in error and that the correct thing was done by that money being properly returned to its rightful owner.
Edited by Mike Haven (08/05/07 10:09 AM)
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HostJacob
Pokerstars Support
Reged: 11/06/06
Posts: 49
Loc: PokerStars Support
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Quote:
I don't like pokerstar's stance on this. Allowing users to reverse trades allows scammers to scam people out of ftp-stars $$ exchanges
While I will not comment on the specific case as we have addressed it with the player in question, your worry here is unfounded. The only situation in which we will reverse a transfer is when a player indicates that they have put the wrong name in, and indicates who the transfer was meant for. We then review and determine whether the story is plausible; if it is, we direct the money on to the intended recipient - *not* back to you.
Example of a transfer we would fix in this manner: "I sent to "Rounders", I meant to send to "Rounders1"
Example of a transfer would not fix in this manner: "I sent to "Rounders", I meant to send to "JoeyKnish".
Should people be more careful about their transfers? As always, yes. But in cases of a clear and honest and obvious simple error, we will correct the mistake. Trying to reverse a transfer by changing your mind, we will not.
We will also reverse a transfer done incorrectly as a result of our error. For example, if during the transfers to settle a deal for the Sunday Million, if we make an error, we will obviously reverse the transfers to the correct amounts as well.
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apefish
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 03/22/06
Posts: 4673
Loc: To the pain
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HostJacobwned.
I actually do not mind this policy as it seems to rely on common sense and doesn't seem prone to abuse.
This is yet one more form of what people have been craving at Full Tilt forever now.
Thumbs up, Stars.
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yimyammer
addict
Reged: 08/17/04
Posts: 619
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
just got off the phone with a lawyer...
I hate to dissapoint you PS fans but the site acted totally improperly on this matter and legal action can be taken against pokerstars or any other site for withdrawing or confescating funds from ones account, where the individual has done nothing wrong in receiving that money.
In the case of the $1k the user that claims he mistakenly made a transfer to another user can have a claim on that money (from the beneficiary) and could get it back legally with sufficient evidence but would not be worth pursuing such a matter due to the expenses he will incur for taking this matter legally as I would not be liable for any legal expenses incurred even if the rule is that money were indeed transfered to me by mistake.
Now I will probably pursue the matter against PS if we believe its worth a try and be assured I will keep this forum informed on the final proceedings of this matter.
For future reference, keep in mind that no poker site has the right to take funds out of your account without your written consent if you as an individual have not acted improperly in any sitaution
Thank you for your responses. and to those of you who think i am a c*nt, well thats just your oppinion(everybody has one)
I just had sex with your wife
you mean my husband
OMG, that poor man.
Can you imagine the arguments they must get in?
She probably bludgeons him into submission with her neverending unwillingness to look at any view other than her own. She probably quotes every petty grievance she has ever had with him in minute detail when they feud causing him to grow even further apart from her all while he secretly plots his method of escape.
I bet she has his nutz in a lockbox somewhere, proposed to him and has a hyphenated last name.
Over/Under on how long it takes for him to bolt for freedom?
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KSOT
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 04/10/05
Posts: 4944
Loc: Daniel Laruso's gonna fight??!
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OMG OP has breasts? Now I understand.
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ZBTHorton
All-in
Reged: 10/04/04
Posts: 6587
Loc: SSNL Coaches PM ME!!
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Where do people like this come from? Like seriously? I can't think of anyone who thinks like the OP does.
Also. Your lawyer has no idea what he/she is talking about, and it's not even close.
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jman220
Please to be Mod?
Reged: 05/12/05
Posts: 7160
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Quote:
as i learned since i was a kid, "founder keeper",
Anyone who knows anything about the law will tell you that "finders keepers" is in fact not the law in almost any country following English Common Law (ie: most of the West). You're in the wrong here, it wasn't your money, you were never entitled to it, if this had been a bank error the same thing would have happenned, stop whining.
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5thStreetHog
veteran
Reged: 09/24/06
Posts: 1234
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"Where do people like this come from? Like seriously?"
From under a rock or a bridge usually.
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jman220
Please to be Mod?
Reged: 05/12/05
Posts: 7160
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Quote:
[just got off the phone with a lawyer...
No, you really didn't.
Quote:
I hate to dissapoint you PS fans but the site acted totally improperly on this matter
No, they didn't.
Quote:
and legal action can be taken against pokerstars or any other site for withdrawing or confescating funds from ones account, where the individual has done nothing wrong in receiving that money.
Legal action can always be taken against anyone for anything. However, you will lose.
Quote:
In the case of the $1k the user that claims he mistakenly made a transfer to another user can have a claim on that money (from the beneficiary) and could get it back legally with sufficient evidence but would not be worth pursuing such a matter due to the expenses he will incur for taking this matter legally as I would not be liable for any legal expenses incurred even if the rule is that money were indeed transfered to me by mistake.
Periods. Learn them, love them, use them.
Quote:
Now I will probably pursue the matter against PS
Liar Liar Pants on fire.
Quote:
if we believe its worth a try and be assured I will keep this forum informed on the final proceedings of this matter.
Sure you will.
Quote:
For future reference, keep in mind that no poker site has the right to take funds out of your account without your written consent if you as an individual have not acted improperly in any sitaution.
Please to be citing what law/statute/case you are getting that from. What Country? What State? There is no way any real "lawyer" represented this to you unless they are some hack just looking to collect a fee even if they know they have no chance in hell. Also, what forum is your "lawyer" planning on bringing this lawsuit in?
Quote:
Thank you for your responses. and to those of you who think i am a c*nt, well thats just your oppinion(everybody has one)
Attention Everyone:
Op is a troll and is lying. There is no way this happenned. Being a lawyer myself, I have been exposed to many dumb lawyers, but I have never met one stupid enough to give the advice that OP claims he recieved.
Regards,
--jman220
Edited by jman220 (08/05/07 03:01 AM)
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sethypooh21
idiotplayer
Reged: 08/09/04
Posts: 5757
Loc: World Series GOGOGOGO
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Quote:
YSSCKY
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ILuvRiver
member
Reged: 07/04/07
Posts: 137
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I just love these people who scream LAWSUIT!!! everytime they feel slightly wronged.
Someone mentioned this earlier, but I think it is a point worth bringing up again. If OP had transfered this $1k to someone in error and PS refused to get it back/pass it to correct player, OP would still have been here threatning legal action because stars had NOT moved money on.
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jason6633
newbie
Reged: 06/16/07
Posts: 29
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Quote:
Op is a troll and is lying.
I second that motion. It is amusing that people who have no clue about pretty much anything when called on it have to then invent some fictional person (lawyer, doctor, cousin who is a congressman, brother who is jesus) they supposedly spoke to in order to prop up their useless pap.
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mo42nyy
**
Reged: 10/24/06
Posts: 1360
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jacob why not set it up in the same manner that you do tournamnet money transfers (both people have to enter the same information)?
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Hallett
addict
Reged: 11/25/03
Posts: 671
Loc: Near Vancouver BC
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Quote:
the tourney was some kind of a ps promo 10kfpp buy-in winner took $20k and 2-9 just $160 ...while having a chat i mentioned that it was a bit extreme for the winner to be taking 20k while the others just less than $200 and as he kicked me out i believed it was his goodwill to offer 1k compensation or something....anyway thats not the point...the poin is that while the money was in my account (money i made plans for) were taken back without my consent. thats the main issue here...i want to know why would ps have the right to take my money without my permission...and somebody mentioned if there is a bank tranfer mistake the bank can rectify that problem..thats not correct because if you are digitally transfering money from you bank account to someone else responsibility is on you to enter the correct details and the bank gives you no guarantees that if you make a mistake you can have your money back
O My God.
Glad I don't know you, and if by chance I ever come across you, please remind me of this so I can tell you how I really feel.
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NotFadeAway
enthusiast
Reged: 02/05/06
Posts: 304
Loc: Canton, Georgia
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Quote:
whether it was a fluke or not people get lucky and you can not take that away from them
Apparently they can. Get over it.
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That Foreign Guy
enthusiast
Reged: 11/03/05
Posts: 262
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Quote:
its the principle behind all these i am insisting on
90% of the time someone says "It's the principle", it's not.
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Computerb
journeyman
Reged: 11/29/05
Posts: 98
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'whether it was a fluke or not people get lucky and you can not take that away from them'
Yes they can. Yes they did.
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sashaben
newbie
Reged: 05/17/06
Posts: 34
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Quote:
If someone accidentally deposits $1,000 into your bank account, then immediately notifies the bank of the error, do you really think the bank will let you keep the money?
I'm not sure about USA banks but here is Australia, if the funds have cleared, you can keep it.
If the orginal person complains, all the bank can do is ring you up and ask you to send it back. If you say no they're not allowed to do anything.
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Josem
Ninja Tar
Reged: 01/19/07
Posts: 4780
Loc: Victoria, Australia
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Quote:
I'm not sure about USA banks but here is Australia, if the funds have cleared, you can keep it.
If the orginal person complains, all the bank can do is ring you up and ask you to send it back. If you say no they're not allowed to do anything.
Liar: http://www.bfso.org.au/abioweb/ABIOWebSi...Bulletin+52.pdf
Also, OP, like the person I just quoted, is a moron. The idea that a mistake cannot be corrected is absurd.
You clearly are not good at life.
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TheEye
enthusiast
Reged: 05/27/07
Posts: 238
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Quote:
Quote:
I'm not sure about USA banks but here is Australia, if the funds have cleared, you can keep it.
If the orginal person complains, all the bank can do is ring you up and ask you to send it back. If you say no they're not allowed to do anything.
Liar: http://www.bfso.org.au/abioweb/ABIOWebSi...Bulletin+52.pdf
Also, OP, like the person I just quoted, is a moron. The idea that a mistake cannot be corrected is absurd.
You clearly are not good at life.
Even if this is now becoming a comedy I will give an answer to your comment you [censored] calling me names...
Firstly, did you actually take time to read the article you are refering to before deciding what is the norm and what not?
Have a good look at the tilte of this post and then let me quote something for you from your referred article so that I can help you get a clear understanding of the subject.
", it is now common practice for banks, when alerted that funds have mistakenly been sent to the wrong account, to notify the recipient of the error and request the return of the funds."
Now, as I and anyone with a fraction of a brain makes from the above quotation "a bank has to notify the recipient of the error and request the return of the funds"
Which part of the fact that pokerstars never notified me to request for the money back, but on the contrary they notified me of the error and have automatically removed the funds from my account without me having a say dont you understand?
Get that in your tiny brain of yours and in the future take some time considering all the facts before coming to a conclusion.
To the supposingly great lawyer who posted previously. Yes, lawyers do pursue such cases as it is their job to do so when they believe that someone has acted improperly in such a case and I guess you should stick to your minimal divorce cases, if you have any, and stop wondering around poker forums offering your worthless expertise.
Addition: In this case pokerstars mentioned in an email of theirs that it is their policy to intervene and act when such a mistake might occur.
To quote: "We do reserve the right
to correct mistakes and did so in accordance with our policies."
However, as much as I tried to find something that might back their claim in their terms & conditions I couldnt find anything relevant and even after requesting from pokerstars to direct me to the t&s I agreed with them when signing up to play on their site stating the above, a ps supervisor responded with the following:
"The fact of the matter is, you received funds from someone with whom you
have no relation. The funds were intended for another party. While there
is no posted policy regarding mistakenly transferred funds we will act in
situations where an error was clearly committed."
Hence ps does not or at least did not have such a policy in place when I agreed to play on their site.
Have pokerstars acted without authorisation on this matter: yes.
Am I elgible to pursue this matter legally? imo and others yes.
Will i do so? probably, after a thorough examination of this case from qualified people.
and please the next person who claims has knowledge of this situation, take some time to revise it before posting your useless comment and calling people names.
Edited by TheEye (08/05/07 02:06 PM)
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TheEye
enthusiast
Reged: 05/27/07
Posts: 238
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Quote:
'whether it was a fluke or not people get lucky and you can not take that away from them'
Yes they can. Yes they did.
No they can't. yes they did
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CharlieDontSurf
spoiler king
Reged: 04/01/06
Posts: 8355
Loc: Just call it. Friendo.
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you're an idiot
thread over
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davmcg
member
Reged: 01/14/03
Posts: 157
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I'm not sure about USA banks but here is Australia, if the funds have cleared, you can keep it.
If the orginal person complains, all the bank can do is ring you up and ask you to send it back. If you say no they're not allowed to do anything.
Liar: http://www.bfso.org.au/abioweb/ABIOWebSi...Bulletin+52.pdf
Also, OP, like the person I just quoted, is a moron. The idea that a mistake cannot be corrected is absurd.
You clearly are not good at life.
Even if this is now becoming a comedy I will give an answer to your comment you [censored] calling me names...
Firstly, did you actually take time to read the article you are refering to before deciding what is the norm and what not?
Have a good look at the tilte of this post and then let me quote something for you from your referred article so that I can help you get a clear understanding of the subject.
", it is now common practice for banks, when alerted that funds have mistakenly been sent to the wrong account, to notify the recipient of the error and request the return of the funds."
Now, as I and anyone with a fraction of a brain makes from the above quotation "a bank has to notify the recipient of the error and request the return of the funds"
Which part of the fact that pokerstars never notified me to request for the money back, but on the contrary they notified me of the error and have automatically removed the funds from my account without me having a say dont you understand?
Get that in your tiny brain of yours and in the future take some time considering all the facts before coming to a conclusion.
To the supposingly great lawyer who posted previously. Yes, lawyers do pursue such cases as it is their job to do so when they believe that someone has acted improperly in such a case and I guess you should stick to your minimal divorce cases, if you have any, and stop wondering around poker forums offering your worthless expertise.
Addition: In this case pokerstars mentioned in an email of theirs that it is their policy to intervene and act when such a mistake might occur.
To quote: "We do reserve the right
to correct mistakes and did so in accordance with our policies."
However, as much as I tried to find something that might back their claim in their terms & conditions I couldnt find anything relevant and even after requesting from pokerstars to direct me to the t&s I agreed with them when signing up to play on their site stating the above, a ps supervisor responded with the following:
"The fact of the matter is, you received funds from someone with whom you
have no relation. The funds were intended for another party. While there
is no posted policy regarding mistakenly transferred funds we will act in
situations where an error was clearly committed."
Hence ps does not or at least did not have such a policy in place when I agreed to play on their site.
Have pokerstars acted without authorisation on this matter: yes.
Am I elgible to pursue this matter legally? imo and others yes.
Will i do so? probably, after a thorough examination of this case from qualified people.
and please the next person who claims has knowledge of this situation, take some time to revise it before posting your useless comment and calling people names.
It will help you greatly in the future if you arrange to have the letters T H I N K tattooed under your fingernails in luminous ink.
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TheEye
enthusiast
Reged: 05/27/07
Posts: 238
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me v the world...
I love it, I always have and always will!
what is life without challenges?..
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5thStreetHog
veteran
Reged: 09/24/06
Posts: 1234
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Quote:
you're an idiot and borderline thief
thread over
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RobAtticus
member
Reged: 04/16/07
Posts: 182
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OP, this is from Pokerstars Terms & Conditions, an agreement that you signed and is binding:
"3. AUTHORITY. PokerStars retains authority over the issuing, maintenance, and closing of Users' accounts at PokerStars. The decision of PokerStars' management, as regards any aspect of a User's account, use of the Service, or dispute resolution, is final and shall not be open to review or appeal."
Your witness.
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edfurlong
stink finger
Reged: 02/25/04
Posts: 13711
Loc: Stabbing your probiscus
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You don't strike me as a thin person.
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Assani Fisher
Icy pots
Reged: 03/08/04
Posts: 11592
Loc: BRINGING THE HOLIDAY CHEER
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TheEye,
If PokerStars had let you keep the money and if the guy came to you and told you that it was an honest mistake and gave you the name of the person he was trying to send it to, would you have given the money back?
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Barrin6
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 12/22/05
Posts: 3732
Loc: 100k hands 5ptbb+ nl1/2 b4 nl2...
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Quote:
Quote:
I don't like pokerstar's stance on this. Allowing users to reverse trades allows scammers to scam people out of ftp-stars $$ exchanges
While I will not comment on the specific case as we have addressed it with the player in question, your worry here is unfounded. The only situation in which we will reverse a transfer is when a player indicates that they have put the wrong name in, and indicates who the transfer was meant for. We then review and determine whether the story is plausible; if it is, we direct the money on to the intended recipient - *not* back to you.
Example of a transfer we would fix in this manner: "I sent to "Rounders", I meant to send to "Rounders1"
Example of a transfer would not fix in this manner: "I sent to "Rounders", I meant to send to "JoeyKnish".
Should people be more careful about their transfers? As always, yes. But in cases of a clear and honest and obvious simple error, we will correct the mistake. Trying to reverse a transfer by changing your mind, we will not.
We will also reverse a transfer done incorrectly as a result of our error. For example, if during the transfers to settle a deal for the Sunday Million, if we make an error, we will obviously reverse the transfers to the correct amounts as well.
This is something that FTP needs to do.
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TheEye
enthusiast
Reged: 05/27/07
Posts: 238
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Quote:
OP, this is from Pokerstars Terms & Conditions, an agreement that you signed and is binding:
"3. AUTHORITY. PokerStars retains authority over the issuing, maintenance, and closing of Users' accounts at PokerStars. The decision of PokerStars' management, as regards any aspect of a User's account, use of the Service, or dispute resolution, is final and shall not be open to review or appeal."
Your witness.
wow...and do you believe that generic condition(issuing, maintenance, and closing of accounts) enables ps to take money out of anyones account as they wish?...then I would say ps is untouchable...if anything goes wrong in the future with the company then they could just confescate all players account money and the shareholders would become all billionaires covered by law with the condition you just posted above...why not just donate them our money instead?...
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TheEye
enthusiast
Reged: 05/27/07
Posts: 238
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Quote:
TheEye,
If PokerStars had let you keep the money and if the guy came to you and told you that it was an honest mistake and gave you the name of the person he was trying to send it to, would you have given the money back?
irrelevant...this is not about me c*nting off someones money
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tautomer
enthusiast
Reged: 10/09/06
Posts: 356
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Uh, no way. Finders keepers man.
This thread is hilarious, props to OP. Now please give your Stars name so I can avoid you at the tables. There's no chance I could compete with such intelligence, especially in a Supernova player.
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NoahSD
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 08/13/05
Posts: 8925
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Full Tilt has the opposite policy here.
This isn't as clear an issue as everyone is saying. Otherwise, I could offer to trade someone stars $s for FT $s and then after receiving the FT $s e-mail stars and say it was a mistake.
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RobAtticus
member
Reged: 04/16/07
Posts: 182
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Quote:
Quote:
OP, this is from Pokerstars Terms & Conditions, an agreement that you signed and is binding:
"3. AUTHORITY. PokerStars retains authority over the issuing, maintenance, and closing of Users' accounts at PokerStars. The decision of PokerStars' management, as regards any aspect of a User's account, use of the Service, or dispute resolution, is final and shall not be open to review or appeal."
Your witness.
wow...and do you believe that generic condition(issuing, maintenance, and closing of accounts) enables ps to take money out of anyones account as they wish?...then I would say ps is untouchable...if anything goes wrong in the future with the company then they could just confescate all players account money and the shareholders would become all billionaires covered by law with the condition you just posted above...why not just donate them our money instead?...
No, that's not what it means.
It's saying that they DO have the authority to "dispute resolution." This is a dispute, they resolved it as they saw fit, and therefore you do not have a case.
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RobAtticus
member
Reged: 04/16/07
Posts: 182
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Quote:
Full Tilt has the opposite policy here.
This isn't as clear an issue as everyone is saying. Otherwise, I could offer to trade someone stars $s for FT $s and then after receiving the FT $s e-mail stars and say it was a mistake.
No, you couldn't. Did you read the post from the Stars rep here? They only reroute the money if a spelling or obvious error was made.
Example:
You want to send money to "Rounders1", send it to "Rounders" by mistake. They will transfer money to "Rounders1" NOT BACK TO YOU.
You want to send money to "JoeyKnish", but send it to "Rounders" by mistake. This transaction will not be reversed.
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foal
old hand
Reged: 04/25/07
Posts: 1019
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What were your plans for the 1k?
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TheEye
enthusiast
Reged: 05/27/07
Posts: 238
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Quote:
Full Tilt has the opposite policy here.
This isn't as clear an issue as everyone is saying. Otherwise, I could offer to trade someone stars $s for FT $s and then after receiving the FT $s e-mail stars and say it was a mistake.
presumed...
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brendanb438
Mo Prop Free Monies
Reged: 01/06/06
Posts: 2636
Loc: Penalty Box at Covers
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OPTROLL, how can you compare an offshore Poker site to that of a bank? Also the bottom line is that you have no money or morals, saw an extra G in your account, nutted yourself with dreams of all the stuff you were gonna get during the 3 minute window this was in your account, then when it was gone you should have ended your misery by smashing your own skull in with your keyboard. That end part was the only thing missing right?
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TheEye
enthusiast
Reged: 05/27/07
Posts: 238
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Quote:
Quote:
Full Tilt has the opposite policy here.
This isn't as clear an issue as everyone is saying. Otherwise, I could offer to trade someone stars $s for FT $s and then after receiving the FT $s e-mail stars and say it was a mistake.
No, you couldn't. Did you read the post from the Stars rep here? They only reroute the money if a spelling or obvious error was made.
Example:
You want to send money to "Rounders1", send it to "Rounders" by mistake. They will transfer money to "Rounders1" NOT BACK TO YOU.
You want to send money to "JoeyKnish", but send it to "Rounders" by mistake. This transaction will not be reversed.
although i never transferred money to anyone through ps i also read that you have to choose the persons city or something when completing the transfer hence it was not just the case of an extra number after ther *username*
+i dont belive the transfer was intended to someone that has the same username as me with a number or letter addition addition at the end
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RobAtticus
member
Reged: 04/16/07
Posts: 182
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Full Tilt has the opposite policy here.
This isn't as clear an issue as everyone is saying. Otherwise, I could offer to trade someone stars $s for FT $s and then after receiving the FT $s e-mail stars and say it was a mistake.
No, you couldn't. Did you read the post from the Stars rep here? They only reroute the money if a spelling or obvious error was made.
Example:
You want to send money to "Rounders1", send it to "Rounders" by mistake. They will transfer money to "Rounders1" NOT BACK TO YOU.
You want to send money to "JoeyKnish", but send it to "Rounders" by mistake. This transaction will not be reversed.
although i never transferred money to anyone through ps i also read that you have to choose the persons city or something when completing the transfer hence it was not just the case of an extra number after ther *username*
+i dont belive the transfer was intended to someone that has the same username as me with a number or letter addition addition at the end
Who cares what you believe? Pokerstars has the records, so if you took this to court, they could just show their transaction records and you'd have no case here. It's not like the original sender had buyer's remorse, he couldn't get the money back anyway.
You have no case. It's called "undo enrichment", you were never entitled to that money and have no claim to it.
Edited by RobAtticus (08/05/07 04:34 PM)
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TheEye
enthusiast
Reged: 05/27/07
Posts: 238
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Full Tilt has the opposite policy here.
This isn't as clear an issue as everyone is saying. Otherwise, I could offer to trade someone stars $s for FT $s and then after receiving the FT $s e-mail stars and say it was a mistake.
No, you couldn't. Did you read the post from the Stars rep here? They only reroute the money if a spelling or obvious error was made.
Example:
You want to send money to "Rounders1", send it to "Rounders" by mistake. They will transfer money to "Rounders1" NOT BACK TO YOU.
You want to send money to "JoeyKnish", but send it to "Rounders" by mistake. This transaction will not be reversed.
although i never transferred money to anyone through ps i also read that you have to choose the persons city or something when completing the transfer hence it was not just the case of an extra number after ther *username*
+i dont belive the transfer was intended to someone that has the same username as me with a number or letter addition addition at the end
Who cares what you believe? Pokerstars has the records, so if you took this to court, they could just show their transaction records and you'd have no case here. It's not like the original sender had buyer's remorse, he couldn't get the money back anyway.
You have no case. It's called "undo enrichment", you were never entitled to that money and have no claim to it.
dude...let me make this clear again...i am not claiming anyones money...i am protesting that pokerstars withdrew money from my account without my consent
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TheEye
enthusiast
Reged: 05/27/07
Posts: 238
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Full Tilt has the opposite policy here.
This isn't as clear an issue as everyone is saying. Otherwise, I could offer to trade someone stars $s for FT $s and then after receiving the FT $s e-mail stars and say it was a mistake.
No, you couldn't. Did you read the post from the Stars rep here? They only reroute the money if a spelling or obvious error was made.
Example:
You want to send money to "Rounders1", send it to "Rounders" by mistake. They will transfer money to "Rounders1" NOT BACK TO YOU.
You want to send money to "JoeyKnish", but send it to "Rounders" by mistake. This transaction will not be reversed.
although i never transferred money to anyone through ps i also read that you have to choose the persons city or something when completing the transfer hence it was not just the case of an extra number after ther *username*
+i dont belive the transfer was intended to someone that has the same username as me with a number or letter addition addition at the end
Who cares what you believe? Pokerstars has the records, so if you took this to court, they could just show their transaction records and you'd have no case here. It's not like the original sender had buyer's remorse, he couldn't get the money back anyway.
You have no case. It's called "undo enrichment", you were never entitled to that money and have no claim to it.
dude...let me make this clear again...i am not claiming anyones money...i am protesting that pokerstars withdrew money from my account without my consent
oh...and the sender got the money back btw(ps told me the money went back to the opriginal person)...so yes it could have been a remorse...whether he transferred them to the person he was supposinglu going to thats another thing
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RobAtticus
member
Reged: 04/16/07
Posts: 182
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The withdrew money that WAS NOT YOURS. They do not need your consent for money that is not yours. It's not like they took some of your money and moved it somewhere else.
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El_Hombre_Grande
old hand
Reged: 10/04/05
Posts: 1091
Loc: On another hopeless bluff.
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Quote:
Quote:
Really the point isn't the money which isn't his and he should let it just go. The point is that PS played with his funds without asking him. I'm gonna go find the other thread where FTP refused to touch funds in a mistaken transfer situation much like this one. Guy was beatching the exact opposite -- demanding FTP go get the dough.
Casino apparently can't win in this situation -- wow that's a first...
i honestly dont give a bloody [censored] about a thousand bucks..thats money spend in a few hours in some cases..its the principle behind all these i am insisting on
i would appreciate if you could find that thread..
What principle? The "somebody accidentally tranfered a grand to my account momentarily and I'm such a prick I actually think I have a moral or legal right to the cash" principle?
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El_Hombre_Grande
old hand
Reged: 10/04/05
Posts: 1091
Loc: On another hopeless bluff.
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Quote:
me v the world...
I love it, I always have and always will!
what is life without challenges?..
Yeah. Great. You find yourself as the most morally and ethically lacking individual in the debate.
Good for you. You should go far.
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Rzitup
enthusiast
Reged: 09/02/02
Posts: 277
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Quote:
Quote:
I think that $1000 means alot more to you than you lead on. It is ridiculous for you to even entertain suing PS over money that isn't even yours. Grow up - you lost - deal with it
suing ps for $1000, you are right thats ridiculous..suing a company that supposedly keeps secure accounts for its customers but can withdraw your funds whenever they feel like a "mistake" was made is a bit more logical dont you think...anyway...i am getting a bit tired of this debate...i feel like we are off the subject a bit and i am countering people who believe i am [censored] and after $1000...
it was good getting a general view on this matter but i believe it is getting out of class...tc people...
TheEye, I can assure of one thing...threats of legal action aren't going to get PS to give you free money. I guarantee there are people sitting in PS office laughing at you right now.
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NeedATimeMachine
addict
Reged: 05/23/07
Posts: 510
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o/u on how long before OP becomes a full blown scammer?
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jason6633
newbie
Reged: 06/16/07
Posts: 29
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Quote:
o/u on how long before OP becomes a full blown scammer?
As soon as this thread gets his post count high enough to ask for money sent first in the person to person transfer thread.
Edited by jason6633 (08/05/07 05:20 PM)
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Assani Fisher
Icy pots
Reged: 03/08/04
Posts: 11592
Loc: BRINGING THE HOLIDAY CHEER
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Quote:
Quote:
OP, this is from Pokerstars Terms & Conditions, an agreement that you signed and is binding:
"3. AUTHORITY. PokerStars retains authority over the issuing, maintenance, and closing of Users' accounts at PokerStars. The decision of PokerStars' management, as regards any aspect of a User's account, use of the Service, or dispute resolution, is final and shall not be open to review or appeal."
Your witness.
wow...and do you believe that generic condition(issuing, maintenance, and closing of accounts) enables ps to take money out of anyones account as they wish?...then I would say ps is untouchable...if anything goes wrong in the future with the company then they could just confescate all players account money and the shareholders would become all billionaires covered by law with the condition you just posted above...why not just donate them our money instead?...
Yes, that generic condition does enable them to do just that. They could take everyone's money and we would have no legal recourse. What stops them from doing that is that they make more money by running a legit business.
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Assani Fisher
Icy pots
Reged: 03/08/04
Posts: 11592
Loc: BRINGING THE HOLIDAY CHEER
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Quote:
Quote:
TheEye,
If PokerStars had let you keep the money and if the guy came to you and told you that it was an honest mistake and gave you the name of the person he was trying to send it to, would you have given the money back?
irrelevant...this is not about me c*nting off someones money
Regardless of its relevance, can you just answer the question?
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Assani Fisher
Icy pots
Reged: 03/08/04
Posts: 11592
Loc: BRINGING THE HOLIDAY CHEER
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Full Tilt has the opposite policy here.
This isn't as clear an issue as everyone is saying. Otherwise, I could offer to trade someone stars $s for FT $s and then after receiving the FT $s e-mail stars and say it was a mistake.
No, you couldn't. Did you read the post from the Stars rep here? They only reroute the money if a spelling or obvious error was made.
Example:
You want to send money to "Rounders1", send it to "Rounders" by mistake. They will transfer money to "Rounders1" NOT BACK TO YOU.
You want to send money to "JoeyKnish", but send it to "Rounders" by mistake. This transaction will not be reversed.
although i never transferred money to anyone through ps i also read that you have to choose the persons city or something when completing the transfer hence it was not just the case of an extra number after ther *username*
+i dont belive the transfer was intended to someone that has the same username as me with a number or letter addition addition at the end
Who cares what you believe? Pokerstars has the records, so if you took this to court, they could just show their transaction records and you'd have no case here. It's not like the original sender had buyer's remorse, he couldn't get the money back anyway.
You have no case. It's called "undo enrichment", you were never entitled to that money and have no claim to it.
dude...let me make this clear again...i am not claiming anyones money...i am protesting that pokerstars withdrew money from my account without my consent
We get that. And then it was pointed out to you that their T&C say they're allowed to do that. And you responded by saying "Well if they could do that then they could just steal from anyone they wanted", which really had nothing to do with the issue since they weren't just randomly taking money from you, but rather they were looking at a series of events and making a logical decision to the best of their abilities.
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Josem
Ninja Tar
Reged: 01/19/07
Posts: 4780
Loc: Victoria, Australia
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Quote:
Firstly, did you actually take time to read the article you are refering to before deciding what is the norm and what not?
Yes.
Quote:
", it is now common practice for banks, when alerted that funds have mistakenly been sent to the wrong account, to notify the recipient of the error and request the return of the funds."
Now, as I and anyone with a fraction of a brain makes from the above quotation "a bank has to notify the recipient of the error and request the return of the funds"
Which part of the fact that pokerstars never notified me to request for the money back, but on the contrary they notified me of the error and have automatically removed the funds from my account without me having a say dont you understand?
Mate,
You clearly are not listening to anyone, but we do actually read what you write. Unlike you, considering both sides of the issue is not alien to me.
You claimed in your OP:
"5 minutes later i receive an email from pokerstars saying that, the transfer was a mistake and was intented for another player with a similar username."
This is self-evidently a notification of the recipient of the error and a request of the return of the funds.
Quote:
However, as much as I tried to find something that might back their claim in their terms & conditions I couldnt find anything relevant and even after requesting from pokerstars to direct me to the t&s I agreed with them when signing up to play on their site stating the above, a ps supervisor responded with the following:
"The fact of the matter is, you received funds from someone with whom you
have no relation. The funds were intended for another party. While there
is no posted policy regarding mistakenly transferred funds we will act in
situations where an error was clearly committed."
Hence ps does not or at least did not have such a policy in place when I agreed to play on their site.
If you come into my shop, and I mistakenly give you the wrong change, it is reasonable to correct the error.
If your postal service delivers a letter to the wrong address, it is reasonable to correct the error.
If your bank makes an error in your bank account, it is reasonable to correct the error.
If PokerStars makes an error in your poker account, it is reasonable to correct the error.
It is so rediculous to claim that you have been wronged in this situation that it seems that we have no frame of reference to hold here.
Quote:
Have pokerstars acted without authorisation on this matter: yes.
This is simply wrong - they have been authorised by:
a) the person who sent the money to the wrong account
b) their rules of service
c) basic common sense
They have not been authorised by you - but it is obviously my contention (and the contention of everyone else in this thread) that this is not needed.
Quote:
Am I elgible to pursue this matter legally? imo and others yes.
What Isle of Man law gives you this standing?
Quote:
Will i do so? probably, after a thorough examination of this case from qualified people.
lol
Quote:
and please the next person who claims has knowledge of this situation, take some time to revise it before posting your useless comment and calling people names.
You claim that you were not notified; but your OP claims you were notified.
Don't me such a moron.
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Oatmeal
Formerly sloth469
Reged: 04/10/04
Posts: 886
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This thread should be a lesson to all... If money shows up into your account get it in play ASAP and try to double it.
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primetime32
veteran
Reged: 05/04/05
Posts: 1251
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Quote:
Quote:
Full Tilt has the opposite policy here.
This isn't as clear an issue as everyone is saying. Otherwise, I could offer to trade someone stars $s for FT $s and then after receiving the FT $s e-mail stars and say it was a mistake.
No, you couldn't. Did you read the post from the Stars rep here? They only reroute the money if a spelling or obvious error was made.
Example:
You want to send money to "Rounders1", send it to "Rounders" by mistake. They will transfer money to "Rounders1" NOT BACK TO YOU.
You want to send money to "JoeyKnish", but send it to "Rounders" by mistake. This transaction will not be reversed.
I love people that defend pokerstars no matter what they do. As it turns out, the person that transfered OP the money just finished a tournament with OP. Then pretty soon after (presumably) the transfer was reversed.
Are we to presume that OP's Screenname just so happens to be one digit off of the screename of this person's buddy? That would seem almost impossible. Of course OP could be lying, but pokerstars refuses to comment on the matter, so we are left with OP's version.
FT's policy is one that is definitive and doesn't rely upon the judgment of others. A very strong case could be made for FT's policy being better.
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RobAtticus
member
Reged: 04/16/07
Posts: 182
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I don't blindly defend PS; I don't even play there anymore.
The guy is making accusations that somebody could transfer $, and then claim it was a mistake to get it back, but according to a PS rep that's not true.
Perhaps because the person who transferred had just finished a tourney with the OP, he confused the names he was transferring. What if he was transferring to a friend that was like HiRoller1976 and the OP's name is HiRoller1979? You've never been typing about something and talking to somebody about something different and accidentally type what you're saying aloud?
My entire point was that according to the rep, their policy for such matters was to never send a transfer back to its original sender in the event of a mistake like this. So the scam the person was talking about, COULD NOT HAPPEN under that policy.
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sonneti
veteran
Reged: 02/10/06
Posts: 1446
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Quote:
This thread should be a lesson to all... If money shows up into your account get it in play ASAP and try to double it.
Amen, anyone remember the party downgrade cabins bug 
OP is clearly mental or a troll... or something.
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Assani Fisher
Icy pots
Reged: 03/08/04
Posts: 11592
Loc: BRINGING THE HOLIDAY CHEER
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Full Tilt has the opposite policy here.
This isn't as clear an issue as everyone is saying. Otherwise, I could offer to trade someone stars $s for FT $s and then after receiving the FT $s e-mail stars and say it was a mistake.
No, you couldn't. Did you read the post from the Stars rep here? They only reroute the money if a spelling or obvious error was made.
Example:
You want to send money to "Rounders1", send it to "Rounders" by mistake. They will transfer money to "Rounders1" NOT BACK TO YOU.
You want to send money to "JoeyKnish", but send it to "Rounders" by mistake. This transaction will not be reversed.
I love people that defend pokerstars no matter what they do. As it turns out, the person that transfered OP the money just finished a tournament with OP. Then pretty soon after (presumably) the transfer was reversed.
Are we to presume that OP's Screenname just so happens to be one digit off of the screename of this person's buddy? That would seem almost impossible. Of course OP could be lying, but pokerstars refuses to comment on the matter, so we are left with OP's version.
FT's policy is one that is definitive and doesn't rely upon the judgment of others. A very strong case could be made for FT's policy being better.
You make some good points, but re-read what was said in the OP:
Quote:
After the end of a tourney the winner(who actually kicked me out of the final table and got a prize worth $20k) tranferred to my account $1000 which i believed was his goodwill and I was thankful to him.
OP never mentions a deal being made at the final table. Do you really think the winner of the tournament just randomly decided to give $1000 to someone else who made the final table? I mean, does that make any sense at all? And then he goes back and asks for the request to be changed? What exactly would be his motivation there?
I think what happened is that the OP and the tournament winner's friend were somewhat alike, and the tournament winner had the OP's username on his mind since he just played with him.
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Assani Fisher
Icy pots
Reged: 03/08/04
Posts: 11592
Loc: BRINGING THE HOLIDAY CHEER
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Quote:
mistakes in poker involving real money cannot be rectified.
Suppose i was playing 100/200 nlhm and by mistake I call my A high for $10k in a $10k pot against someone elses quads..or even better, suppose a stud session where my opponents open cards beat my best hand however i call his bet on the river does that make me eligible to request from pokerstars to credit back my money because i made a mistake?I DON'T BELIEVE SO.
I would just like to add that this might be one of the worst analogies I've ever read.
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primetime32
veteran
Reged: 05/04/05
Posts: 1251
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Full Tilt has the opposite policy here.
This isn't as clear an issue as everyone is saying. Otherwise, I could offer to trade someone stars $s for FT $s and then after receiving the FT $s e-mail stars and say it was a mistake.
No, you couldn't. Did you read the post from the Stars rep here? They only reroute the money if a spelling or obvious error was made.
Example:
You want to send money to "Rounders1", send it to "Rounders" by mistake. They will transfer money to "Rounders1" NOT BACK TO YOU.
You want to send money to "JoeyKnish", but send it to "Rounders" by mistake. This transaction will not be reversed.
I love people that defend pokerstars no matter what they do. As it turns out, the person that transfered OP the money just finished a tournament with OP. Then pretty soon after (presumably) the transfer was reversed.
Are we to presume that OP's Screenname just so happens to be one digit off of the screename of this person's buddy? That would seem almost impossible. Of course OP could be lying, but pokerstars refuses to comment on the matter, so we are left with OP's version.
FT's policy is one that is definitive and doesn't rely upon the judgment of others. A very strong case could be made for FT's policy being better.
You make some good points, but re-read what was said in the OP:
Quote:
After the end of a tourney the winner(who actually kicked me out of the final table and got a prize worth $20k) tranferred to my account $1000 which i believed was his goodwill and I was thankful to him.
OP never mentions a deal being made at the final table. Do you really think the winner of the tournament just randomly decided to give $1000 to someone else who made the final table? I mean, does that make any sense at all? And then he goes back and asks for the request to be changed? What exactly would be his motivation there?
I think what happened is that the OP and the tournament winner's friend were somewhat alike, and the tournament winner had the OP's username on his mind since he just played with him.
I agree, I said earlier in this thread that OP had no legal claim for the money since there was never any agreement and PS has the right to reverse the transactions.
My point was that PS's policy can lead to more fraud, while FT's policy will lead to less fraud. Of course, FT's policy will also lead to more innocent mistakes never getting corrected. Personally i rather have a policy that protects against fraud. I also have little sympathy for people that can't get a simple money transfer correct.
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daryn
Hit and run artist
Reged: 04/24/03
Posts: 18335
Loc: Boston
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i dunno.. if you read PS's policy at all, you'll see it really doesn't make fraud that much easier
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primetime32
veteran
Reged: 05/04/05
Posts: 1251
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Quote:
i dunno.. if you read PS's policy at all, you'll see it really doesn't make fraud that much easier
I never said PS policy would lead to thousands of fraudulent transfers. Your own statement even indicates that it would be at least somewhat easier.
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OMGuraBOT
member
Reged: 05/23/07
Posts: 179
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Thread
OP, your thoughts on this?
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mbpoker
old hand
Reged: 09/25/02
Posts: 970
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Presumably this PS policy is for some time there. How many times have you read about a fraud occuring because of that?
And in your opinion if a person made an honest mistake by mistyping some id then he or she deserves to lose their $1,000 or $100 or even $10?
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wesrwood
journeyman
Reged: 02/17/07
Posts: 53
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My questions is if op had 0 in his account and donked off that money what would stars have done?
Edited by wesrwood (08/05/07 10:44 PM)
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NoahSD
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 08/13/05
Posts: 8925
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Quote:
Quote:
Full Tilt has the opposite policy here.
This isn't as clear an issue as everyone is saying. Otherwise, I could offer to trade someone stars $s for FT $s and then after receiving the FT $s e-mail stars and say it was a mistake.
No, you couldn't. Did you read the post from the Stars rep here? They only reroute the money if a spelling or obvious error was made.
Example:
You want to send money to "Rounders1", send it to "Rounders" by mistake. They will transfer money to "Rounders1" NOT BACK TO YOU.
You want to send money to "JoeyKnish", but send it to "Rounders" by mistake. This transaction will not be reversed.
Sorrry.. long thread, so I didn't read the whole thing.
Stars is awesome.
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primetime32
veteran
Reged: 05/04/05
Posts: 1251
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