HOWMANY
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 09/04/06
Posts: 4322
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I had been playing for an hour or so 3 handed with this awful guy and then a guy that sounded like he might not be retarded (I was wrong) when a few other people wandered in and out. In this case the extra player is Hung La who I have never played with but he came over from some mixed game that broke and he had the look on his face of someone who has been curbstomped by thousands of bad beats so I was giving him credit for probably being good.
So fish folds, villain raises button, other guy folds, I call in bb with T 7
Flop: Q 78
I check/call
Turn:5
I c/r with the plan of checking the river if he calls, probably folding. He apparently doesn't like my plan at all and 3bets, I call.
River: T
What now?
Thoughts on flop/turn play and turn plan too.
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daryn
Hit and run artist
Reged: 04/24/03
Posts: 18335
Loc: Boston
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bet and call?
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Clarkmeister
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 09/02/02
Posts: 17935
Loc: THATSATOOMANY!!!!
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I'm checkraising.
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DeathDonkey
runs better than he plays
Reged: 02/24/04
Posts: 6426
Loc: DeucesCracked - Serious Game
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Quote:
I'm checkraising.
Agree with this but I hate the turn checkraise. So you picked up some outs big whoopee.
-DeathDonkey
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Joe Tall
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 04/11/03
Posts: 10220
Loc: Deucescracked - Serious Game
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Why did you check-raise the turn?
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HOWMANY
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 09/04/06
Posts: 4322
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Quote:
Why did you check-raise the turn?
I never want to have another winning session so I play every single hand the exact opposite of how it should be played.
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casellaKid
stranger
Reged: 02/24/07
Posts: 20
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Quote:
Why did you check-raise the turn?
I can't imagine not checkraising the turn. What exactly are you afraid of?
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mike l.
2+2's Sommelier
Reged: 09/02/02
Posts: 8340
Loc: yes i coach live lhe now pm me
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the hand was a lot tougher and more interesting when you described it to me as the board being: Q87-9-T
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mike l.
2+2's Sommelier
Reged: 09/02/02
Posts: 8340
Loc: yes i coach live lhe now pm me
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"I can't imagine not checkraising the turn. What exactly are you afraid of?"
the tough player correctly 3 betting after recognizing it as a pair that picked up more outs since that's what every kid under 30 does on the turn when that happens.
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andyfox
2+2 urban legend
Reged: 09/03/02
Posts: 17636
Loc: La-la land, where else?
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The Costanza Method. I like it.
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Turning Stone Pro
veteran
Reged: 12/03/03
Posts: 1455
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This is not a flop check-raise turn-lead situation? Seems rather routine to me.
TSP
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vmacosta
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 07/16/04
Posts: 2060
Loc: Bay Area
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Sheesh, check-raising the river seems like bigtime spew. What ranges are you guys giving villain!?!
I also can't imagine not c/r'ing the flop.
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Joe Tall
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 04/11/03
Posts: 10220
Loc: Deucescracked - Serious Game
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Quote:
Quote:
Why did you check-raise the turn?
I can't imagine not checkraising the turn. What exactly are you afraid of?
A better hand than a pair of 7s owning me.
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Bill King
*
Reged: 09/05/05
Posts: 3305
Loc: S.C.I.E.N.C.E.
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i wouldnt be surprised if you see him check behind on this river quite a bit here so i like betting out
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HOWMANY
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 09/04/06
Posts: 4322
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Quote:
the hand was a lot tougher and more interesting when you described it to me as the board being: Q87-9-T
I'm pretty sure I didn't describe it like that or didn't mean to because if that had been the case I would have just went berserk and 4bet the turn.
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mike l.
2+2's Sommelier
Reged: 09/02/02
Posts: 8340
Loc: yes i coach live lhe now pm me
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that is how you described it but you were asleep so that might be why. and i did say 4 bet the turn. anyway i too didnt like the turn c/r you need to just c/c. but i wouldve c/red the flop.
mike
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HOWMANY
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 09/04/06
Posts: 4322
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This was supposed to be one of those posts where I tricked everyone into thinking you said I played it well but now you ruined it by telling everyone I played it terrible. I also think you're right now because rethinking a lot of hands I've played lately I have deviated from my normal play by putting in lots of bets on the turn instead of the flop like normal and I think I may be putting too much in bad.
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jba
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 02/13/05
Posts: 9596
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I usually c/r the flop but I only responded because I folded queens pf to this guy and thought it was good at the time but I sucked at poker and now I think it was really stupid.
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Kayber2
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 183
Loc: Seattle
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I usually checkraise the flop like everybody else.
Anyhow if I'm the vilain in this hand and I'm at Commerce I 3bet the turn a lot since the board is as draw heavy as it gets. However if called on the turn I check the river with my overpair or TPTK since the draw missed and if he's calling my turn 3bet and plans on calling my river bet he usually has one pair beat.
So...based on that if I'm the hero and river 2 pair I bet.
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Scary_Tiger
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 10/16/05
Posts: 8590
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Quote:
bet and call?
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Sharingan21
stranger
Reged: 05/20/07
Posts: 18
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Need more info on the villain. What do you think of leading out on the flop to see where you are? If you get raised, call the flop and either check call or check raise the turn, if the villain just calls the bet on the flop you would just lead out again.
After the 3 bet on the turn, I think you check raise on the river, because the villain is showing strength and likelihood to bet again on the river.
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spino1i
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 07/01/05
Posts: 2429
Loc: im a tagfish that always folds
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check/raise is so aggressive and daring, but I dont know if its the right move here because theres a lot of hands you will be forced to pay off when he 3-bets you.. Is he really betting a weaker hand than a weak two pair more often on the river than one pair on this board?
Btw, flop looks good (flop check/raise is liable to get you in a lot of trouble against many different draws). Turn is good assuming he 2nd barrels draws more often than not. If he likes free-card plays with his draws and weak made hands, I like a turn lead better.
Edited by spino1i (07/07/07 08:12 PM)
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PokerBob
Daddy
Reged: 03/24/04
Posts: 17046
Loc: moneyhater
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Quote:
I had been playing for an hour or so 3 handed with this awful guy and then a guy that sounded like he might not be retarded (I was wrong) when a few other people wandered in and out. In this case the extra player is Hung La who I have never played with but he came over from some mixed game that broke and he had the look on his face of someone who has been curbstomped by thousands of bad beats so I was giving him credit for probably being good.
So fish folds, villain raises button, other guy folds, I call in bb with T7
Flop: Q78
I check/call
Turn:5
I c/r with the plan of checking the river if he calls, probably folding. He apparently doesn't like my plan at all and 3bets, I call.
River: T
What now?
Thoughts on flop/turn play and turn plan too.
the flop is fine. check/raising is fine too.
the turn is just dumb. worse hands fold and better hands either 3bet or call.
as played, the river is a check/raise/fold.
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hoppscot22
old hand
Reged: 10/01/06
Posts: 1041
Loc: blogging
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i definitely check raise the river
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J.A.Sucker
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 09/03/02
Posts: 3061
Loc: I rate to be the kind of guy w...
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As you played it, checkraise the river. Call a 3 bet if it comes.
For the rest of the hand, it really doesn't matter much what you do. These are good spots to mix up your play and you did. C/Ring on the flop is the standard line, but you can also bet it out and 3 bet if he raises, bet it out and call, or just check and call. The turn checkraise is fine, but you could just as well bet it out and see what happens. Who cares?
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ALL1N
lobster
Reged: 05/10/03
Posts: 2013
Loc: Melbourne 07
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nm
Edited by ALL1N (11/07/07 11:50 AM)
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elindauer
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 06/02/03
Posts: 2966
Loc: analyzing hand ranges
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I'm assuming stox button steal range.
Flop: Range calculator tells me that villain holds a 1-overcard draw 37% of the time. As such, you should probably be check-raising this board with the hands you decide to play, as you have a decent amount of fold equity. If you check-raise bottom pair, it's going to be hard for him to call you with K9, A5, etc when you are actually on a straight or flush draw.
Note that pokerstove backs this up: we have 56% equity vs his range.
Having just called, I think your turn check-raise is fine. It depends of course on what range of hands you think opponent is betting on the turn, but if you think he's betting most of his range, then check-raise is the only play. We're 2:1 favorites against his range (pokerstove) and are happy to elliminate the 35% of his range that may fold (AK=3.3%, AJ,AT,KJ,KT type hands=16%, overcard-gutshot A9, A4, K9 etc=16%).
There may some concern about splitting his range with this raise, but if villain really does split his range around bottom pair, then we can exploit him by check-raising all hands on the turn, as "hands we beat" constitute a big % of his range, and that's ignoring flush (7.6%) and straight draws (6.4%).
You check-raise this turn with strong hands, so balancing your range with a hand like this with such high equity seems like a no-brainer from a game theory perspective.
On the river, I think you should check-raise. I'm assuming that your opponent is good enough to be 3-betting top pair hands on the turn. Both your turn check-raise and his turn 3-bet ranges should have a large number of 1-pair hands on this board (on the turn, he holds 2-pair-or-better only 5% of the time). Folding to a 3-bet is probably reasonable as T7s is one of the worst hands you'll hold after this action (call QTo, T8o) and of course it takes huge courage to try to exploit a player who is folding to a river 3-bet a bit more than game theory might suggest.
good luck.
Eric
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sup_bro
journeyman
Reged: 07/16/07
Posts: 94
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i agree to CR that TURN and IF u do that u MUST lead that RIVER and call a raise....he could be 1)overplaying his overpair on the RIVER or 2) may have raise TURN for a free SD...i realize that this is NOT online, because online this is an easy lead on the RIVER because every TOM, DICK, and MARY 3 town that draw happy board on TURN for a free SD with a solid ACE and thus when ur perceived draw misses and u lead 95% of the online free world will pay u off.....
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PokerBob
Daddy
Reged: 03/24/04
Posts: 17046
Loc: moneyhater
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Quote:
As you played it, checkraise the river. Call a 3 bet if it comes.
Putting in 3 bets on this river after the turn action is absurd.
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James282
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 09/16/03
Posts: 5309
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Quote:
Quote:
As you played it, checkraise the river. Call a 3 bet if it comes.
Putting in 3 bets on this river after the turn action is absurd.
I think c/r river fold to 3 bet rules because you can then be like "haha i suck i had missed clubs" and fold it.
James
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Mr.Busto
Reged: 11/17/07
Posts: 148
Loc: under the table
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check call turn then check raise river seems to be fine.
math works out, so you save or gain extra bet in either situational result.
dont raise turns here, maybe in NL but still the texture makes it kind of unneeded
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Bill King
*
Reged: 09/05/05
Posts: 3305
Loc: S.C.I.E.N.C.E.
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i think the river c/r idea is pretty bad, b/c you're all assuming he's calling the river raise which would make the play probably slightly +EV, but he can probably fold in this spot making the play bad b/c he only calls/raises with the best of it.
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Heisenb3rg
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 11/28/05
Posts: 1733
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I think the turn is more interesting than people are giving credit...
If im playing a steaming LAG, this is a PERFECT spot to c/r on average, because I expect to get 3-bet bluffed (and unfortunatly p0wned) very frequetnly...
I also expect extrmly light call downs (A hi?) because of the amount of draws here.
A key variable is how 2 barelly he is... Because if hes betting hands like KJ and AJ on the turn, then youd prefer to charge him now , rather than let him see the river cheap.
If he doesnt, then his range is pretty strong once he bets the turn, and a c/r would be pretty bad.
I also like to get any opportunity I can to shove bets down steaming players throats, to put them on harder tilt.. If ever the situation is close, I always err on the side of agression.
River is an easy c/r imo..
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One Outer
old hand
Reged: 03/10/07
Posts: 1180
Loc: in a transitional period
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Would it be fair to say that hero is essentially charging himself to draw on the turn? Meh.
I'd be worried that villain is trying to take a free showdown with his turn threebarrel. b/c river.
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PokerBob
Daddy
Reged: 03/24/04
Posts: 17046
Loc: moneyhater
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Quote:
i think the river c/r idea is pretty bad, b/c you're all assuming he's calling the river raise which would make the play probably slightly +EV, but he can probably fold in this spot making the play bad b/c he only calls/raises with the best of it.
this pot is huge and our line is weird. he calls plenty.
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redsd00dz
banned
Reged: 11/18/07
Posts: 45
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i would checkraise
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Two Plus Two 
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