raptor517
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 01/12/04
Posts: 7453
Loc: TEXAS
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heres some build up details..
a couple months ago me and durr were talking crap to each other, and he said he could beat a grandmaster at chess if the GM was playing down a knight. i said lolol so we booked 5k. fast forward a couple months, get a few drinks in me at pf changs, and hes SOOO confident, so we end up betting 50k with the GM down a rook.
fast forward a week later, i get curtains to play for me and give him a 10% freeroll. curtains is an international master, so hes pretty solid, and i dont really know any GMs so i went with the easy route cuz i didnt think it would matter much..
anyways, first 5k game where curtains is down a knight, curtains wins decidedly. we used a 45 minute clock on that one. i also booked 4.5 to 1 somewhere in the middle of the match where curtains had a dominating position for 2k more, so up 7k there. durr had random bets in between to other people, so maybe lost 9k total or something.
for the main event, we were supposed to play a single 50k match with curtains down a rook, but durr wanted to decrease variance or something stupid, so we went with a best of 3 match for 55k total. after seeing the first game, i realized durr didnt have much of a chance, and jcmoussa booked 700 at 3.5 to 1 or something silly with me as well.
anyways, first match just finished, with curtains winning fairly solidly again.. durr was in a few manageable positions, but managed to donk it off with some ill timed moves. so.. 1 more win to go. we ended up coinflipping for all of the details, as in which side the rook/knight would be taken away, and which color would be played. so far durr played white first game with curtains down queen side knight, and white for the first game of the main event with curtains down his king side rook. this next game has durr playing white with curtains down his queen side rook.
anyways, this is probably one of the bigger bets done on chess in history. most people realize what their edge is and wont gamble on it, as you know, its a skill game and all. but yea, im having a good month so far with one of my horsies winning a bracelet, and it looks like its about to get better. details to follow soon..
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mrTEA
old hand
Reged: 01/01/06
Posts: 1046
Loc: UCSD
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this is [censored] awesome
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Jman28
Carpal \'Tunnel
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Posts: 4101
Loc: Banana Thief
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I do have to say, though a great poker player, durrrr is one of the biggest prop betting fish I know.
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minnesotasam
addict
Reged: 01/28/07
Posts: 594
Loc: Philly/MN/AC
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2nd
This is so [censored] baller. Great work rapdurrr.
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shaniac
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 09/22/02
Posts: 4386
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who won a bracelet for you?
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FUJItheFISH
MicroHULA's Biggest Bitch
Reged: 09/25/04
Posts: 4997
Loc: I'm the rake.
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well a knight is worth what 3 points? yeah im sure the edge of a guy like curtains on an unskilled chess player is more like 6 points or maybe even more. pretty sick prop bet and great idea raptor. please more videos of jumping off houses.
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raptor517
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 01/12/04
Posts: 7453
Loc: TEXAS
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Quote:
who won a bracelet for you?
ryan young 1500 nl.
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raptor517
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 01/12/04
Posts: 7453
Loc: TEXAS
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Durrr actually played match 1 with Black and is playing match 2 with white now. Should there be a 3rd match he gets white again.
One of the best lines from the chess match #1:
Durrr: damn I screwed up back there, if I didnt make that mistake I couldve won this one.
Curtains: Now let's not get carried away.
-Apathy
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TheMadHeater
member
Reged: 04/02/07
Posts: 194
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Sick. There's a reason people don't gamble on chess. Well.... normal people.
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stetda
member
Reged: 06/13/07
Posts: 111
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I can't even imagine the prop bets that go on in your house Raptor. Nice one.
What's the biggest/craziest prop bet you guys have ever had?
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TheMadHeater
member
Reged: 04/02/07
Posts: 194
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Also, how does Curtains rate his edge in this game?
Did Durr ever have a chance or did he just bet 60k drawing stone dead....
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youcanhaveitall
*
Reged: 12/09/06
Posts: 391
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raptor I  you
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bugstud
Autodraft Expert
Reged: 01/14/03
Posts: 10151
Loc: HEISMAN!
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sick. So +ev
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grandmaster2
stranger
Reged: 12/29/04
Posts: 1
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LOL. I switched from chess (Grandmaster 2580 elo) to poker because in poker 'The bad players don't know they are bad'. Makes you wonder...
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riverboatking
veteran
Reged: 06/08/04
Posts: 1582
Loc: held down by the man
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Quote:
I do have to say, though a great poker player, durrrr is one of the biggest prop betting fish I know.
i wonder if there were any suckers there that put action on durr?
man it would be sweet if someone could've hustled somebody into taking action on durr in a side bet getting only
2-1........
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Daddy Warbucks
1000+ Views
Reged: 10/16/06
Posts: 3968
Loc: Doin' numbers like Soduku
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Quote:
LOL. I switched from chess (Grandmaster 2580 elo) to poker because in poker 'The bad players don't know they are bad'. Makes you wonder...
In golf the players know they're bad too, but people learn how to handicap.
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smilingbill
enthusiast
Reged: 12/20/05
Posts: 251
Loc: idiot
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unless durrr is a club level player (which would have been mentioned i guess) this is very very +EV for raptorrrrr
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Apathy
2006 and 2007 HSNL Heads-up Champion
Reged: 03/03/04
Posts: 4898
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2nd match about half way or more done now. Curtains said he is in "good" position when Durrr left the room briefly.
Uh oh...
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Apathy
2006 and 2007 HSNL Heads-up Champion
Reged: 03/03/04
Posts: 4898
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Also Curtains said he can reconstruct the entire match(es) from memory so maybe he would do that for everyone if there is interest (not sure if he would spend time on that or not).
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raptor517
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 01/12/04
Posts: 7453
Loc: TEXAS
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Quote:
I can't even imagine the prop bets that go on in your house Raptor. Nice one.
What's the biggest/craziest prop bet you guys have ever had?
this is without a doubt the sickest, though it prob has v v v low variance for me. im pretty much a lock in every respect. durrr = fish
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raptor517
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 01/12/04
Posts: 7453
Loc: TEXAS
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Quote:
Also, how does Curtains rate his edge in this game?
Did Durr ever have a chance or did he just bet 60k drawing stone dead....
'i win 100% of the time in this bet' -curtains
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TheMadHeater
member
Reged: 04/02/07
Posts: 194
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Quote:
Quote:
Also, how does Curtains rate his edge in this game?
Did Durr ever have a chance or did he just bet 60k drawing stone dead....
'i win 100% of the time in this bet' -curtains
I had a feeling.... That's some pretty sick [censored]. 0% chance of beating an IM down a rook. And he originally wanted to play a GM down a knight... What convinced him that this was in any way feasible?
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Daddy Warbucks
1000+ Views
Reged: 10/16/06
Posts: 3968
Loc: Doin' numbers like Soduku
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Is durrrr actually any good at chess, or does he just like betting on stuff?
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warbler
journeyman
Reged: 09/29/05
Posts: 65
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I would love to challenge a GM up a rook!!
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raptor517
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 01/12/04
Posts: 7453
Loc: TEXAS
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Quote:
Is durrrr actually any good at chess, or does he just like betting on stuff?
hes not a lot better than me, and i consider myself terrible.
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raptor517
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 01/12/04
Posts: 7453
Loc: TEXAS
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and... RAPTOR WINS!!! sorry durr durr, very well done curtains.. hes super sick chess player.
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EmpireMaker2
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 01/10/06
Posts: 3055
Loc: "Ball till I fking crawl"
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durrr another 50k bet is all u can do......
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pete fabrizio
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 07/19/04
Posts: 2250
Loc: big-ass yard
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Quote:
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Is durrrr actually any good at chess, or does he just like betting on stuff?
hes not a lot better than me, and i consider myself terrible.
you really have to be quite bad at chess to ever lose with a rook advantage against anyone. just play defensively and force a bunch of trades -- they don't all even have to be even -- and you'll be unstoppable in the endgame. this is why chess is a terrible game to handicap -- a single pawn advantage would be enough to make any competitive player a favorite against the top gm's in the world.
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raptor517
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 01/12/04
Posts: 7453
Loc: TEXAS
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Quote:
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Is durrrr actually any good at chess, or does he just like betting on stuff?
hes not a lot better than me, and i consider myself terrible.
you really have to be quite bad at chess to ever lose with a rook advantage against anyone. just play defensively and force a bunch of trades -- they don't all even have to be even -- and you'll be unstoppable in the endgame. this is why chess is a terrible game to handicap -- a single pawn advantage would be enough to make any competitive player a favorite against the top gm's in the world.
its really not as easy as you think.
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pahala
member
Reged: 10/19/06
Posts: 104
Loc: (Es)poo flinging
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I don't think your average Simon Sundayplayer has a chance against an IM even with rook odds, so yeah, this was pretty awful for durr.
I think I could at least draw, probably win, an IM if I had rook odds.
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pete fabrizio
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 07/19/04
Posts: 2250
Loc: big-ass yard
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Quote:
Quote:
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Is durrrr actually any good at chess, or does he just like betting on stuff?
hes not a lot better than me, and i consider myself terrible.
you really have to be quite bad at chess to ever lose with a rook advantage against anyone. just play defensively and force a bunch of trades -- they don't all even have to be even -- and you'll be unstoppable in the endgame. this is why chess is a terrible game to handicap -- a single pawn advantage would be enough to make any competitive player a favorite against the top gm's in the world.
its really not as easy as you think.
i'm not saying anyone who has ever played the game should be able to win this, but any serious chess player -- even one that's not that good among serious chess players -- should. it's kind of like playing nlh with the button every hand.
Edited by pete fabrizio (06/28/07 07:20 AM)
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undercheck
stranger
Reged: 07/26/05
Posts: 17
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Can you post the games?
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Rolen
old hand
Reged: 03/20/05
Posts: 1154
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Quote:
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Is durrrr actually any good at chess, or does he just like betting on stuff?
hes not a lot better than me, and i consider myself terrible.
you really have to be quite bad at chess to ever lose with a rook advantage against anyone. just play defensively and force a bunch of trades -- they don't all even have to be even -- and you'll be unstoppable in the endgame. this is why chess is a terrible game to handicap -- a single pawn advantage would be enough to make any competitive player a favorite against the top gm's in the world.
its really not as easy as you think.
i'm not saying anyone who has ever played the game should be able to win this, but any serious chess player -- even one that's not that good among serious chess players -- should. it's kind of like playing nlh with the button every hand.
Good analogy.
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Spechel EDD
h0t PiNk 4|yf3
Reged: 01/13/05
Posts: 9665
Loc: crUNKviLLE
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did curtains try to pull the:
pawn e2 to e4
queen d1 to f3
bishop f1 to c4
queen takes pawn from f3 to f7 checkmate
gg
move because that wouldve been pretty lol to do
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fees
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 02/19/07
Posts: 4162
Loc: Whats my motivation? LOLOLOLOL...
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wtf is all this rating of chess players... where does this come from?
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KakiTee
enthusiast
Reged: 03/21/07
Posts: 260
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Quote:
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Is durrrr actually any good at chess, or does he just like betting on stuff?
hes not a lot better than me, and i consider myself terrible.
you really have to be quite bad at chess to ever lose with a rook advantage against anyone. just play defensively and force a bunch of trades -- they don't all even have to be even -- and you'll be unstoppable in the endgame. this is why chess is a terrible game to handicap -- a single pawn advantage would be enough to make any competitive player a favorite against the top gm's in the world.
its really not as easy as you think.
i'm not saying anyone who has ever played the game should be able to win this, but any serious chess player -- even one that's not that good among serious chess players -- should. it's kind of like playing PLO with the button every hand.
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curtains
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 05/04/03
Posts: 13960
Loc: Philadelphia
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Game 1, I'm white, king's rook is missing. I actually overlooked ...Qxd4.
1.d4 d5 2.c4 Bf5 3.Nc3 c6 4.Bf4 e6 5.c5 Qa5 6.a3 Bxc5 7.dxc5 Qxc5 8.Rc1 d4 9.Ne4 Qa5+ 10.b4 Qxa3 11.Nd6+ Ke7 12.Qxd4 Nd7 13.e4 Bg6 14.Ra1 c5 15.Qxg7 Qxb4+ 16.Bd2 Qd4 17.Qxd4 cxd4 18.Bb4 Kf6 19.f4 e5 20.f5 Bh5 21.h3 Nh6 22.Bd2 Ke7 23.Nxb7 Rab8 24.Na5 Rhc8 25.Bxh6 f6 26.Bc1 Kf7 27.g4 Nc5 28.gxh5 Nxe4 29.Bc4+ Ke8 30.Ne2 Nd6 31.Be6 Rc7 32.Ba3 Ne4 33.Bd5 Nc5 34.Bc6+ Kf8 35.Bxc5+ Kg7 36.Bd6 Rxc6 37.Nxc6 Rb6 38.Rxa7+ Kh6 39.Bf8+ Kxh5 40.Rxh7+ Kg5 41.Ne7 Rb1+ 42.Kf2 d3 43.Bh6+ Kh4 44.Be3# 1-0
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Tulosba
enthusiast
Reged: 04/19/06
Posts: 219
Loc: It puts the lotion on it's ski...
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Quote:
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Is durrrr actually any good at chess, or does he just like betting on stuff?
hes not a lot better than me, and i consider myself terrible.
you really have to be quite bad at chess to ever lose with a rook advantage against anyone. just play defensively and force a bunch of trades -- they don't all even have to be even -- and you'll be unstoppable in the endgame. this is why chess is a terrible game to handicap -- a single pawn advantage would be enough to make any competitive player a favorite against the top gm's in the world.
That's not true, a piece advantage would likely be enough for me against a GM if it's not a very fast time control. But a pawn never, i would be crushed. I am rated just above 2000 FIDE.
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Tulosba
enthusiast
Reged: 04/19/06
Posts: 219
Loc: It puts the lotion on it's ski...
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Were you allowed to castle with the missing rook?
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Chump Change
EuroBBV
Reged: 06/24/06
Posts: 9851
Loc: WITH UR POOR ROBBIN UR RICHES
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Quote:
Also Curtains said he can reconstruct the entire match(es) from memory so maybe he would do that for everyone if there is interest (not sure if he would spend time on that or not).
Oh yeah that would be awesome. Plus it wouldn't be that tedious if he's used to typing out notation. A level players should be able to remember a game move for move.
Was durrr drinking/drugging during the match? I can't see him taking this bet without knowing he had a solid chance. In a non-blitz game, an IM giving rook odds to a competent player would be at a disadvantage, though the term 'competent' is relative and might have a different meaning in my head than another's.
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Heavens_Myst
Banned
Reged: 08/23/06
Posts: 2763
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howd he pay? cashiers check?
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curtains
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 05/04/03
Posts: 13960
Loc: Philadelphia
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Game 2, I'm black, queen's rook is missing. At the very end when he lost his queen he had only a few seconds left.
1.g3 d5 2.Bg2 e5 3.d3 c6 4.Nf3 Bd6 5.Bd2 Bg4 6.Nc3 Qc8 7.h3 Be6 8.e3 Nf6 9.Qe2 0-0 10.Ng5 Bd7 11.e4 d4 12.Nd1 c5 13.f4 h6 14.Nf3 Nh5 15.Qf2 exf4 16.Bxf4 Bxf4 17.gxf4 Nxf4 18.Qg3 Qc7 19.Qh2 f5 20.b3 fxe4 21.dxe4 Qa5+ 22.Nd2 Nc6 23.Rf1 g5 24.h4 Nb4 25.Rc1 Qa3 26.Rb1 Nxc2+ 27.Kf2 Qb4 28.Nf3 g4 29.Qg3 Kh7 30.a3 Qb6 31.Bh1 d3 32.Ne3 c4 33.Qxf4 Rxf4 34.Kg3 Qxe3 0-1
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Spechel EDD
h0t PiNk 4|yf3
Reged: 01/13/05
Posts: 9665
Loc: crUNKviLLE
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any of you chess pros have a site that you recreate games on? i dont want to have to dig through my closet to find my old board and the stuff coming up in google are 1 on 1 games.
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Chump Change
EuroBBV
Reged: 06/24/06
Posts: 9851
Loc: WITH UR POOR ROBBIN UR RICHES
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Quote:
Quote:
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Also, how does Curtains rate his edge in this game?
Did Durr ever have a chance or did he just bet 60k drawing stone dead....
'i win 100% of the time in this bet' -curtains
I had a feeling.... That's some pretty sick [censored]. 0% chance of beating an IM down a rook. And he originally wanted to play a GM down a knight... What convinced him that this was in any way feasible?
See, chess is not without the aspect of bad players not knowing they're bad. If durrr never played a rated tournament or played extensively online to get a feel of where he is at, and just beat up on his buddies, he probably has little idea of how good or bad he is.
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Chump Change
EuroBBV
Reged: 06/24/06
Posts: 9851
Loc: WITH UR POOR ROBBIN UR RICHES
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Quote:
Game 2, I'm black, queen's rook is missing. At the very end when he lost his queen he had only a few seconds left.
1.g3 d5 2.Bg2 e5 3.d3 c6 4.Nf3 Bd6 5.Bd2 Bg4 6.Nc3 Qc8 7.h3 Be6 8.e3 Nf6 9.Qe2 0-0 10.Ng5 Bd7 11.e4 d4 12.Nd1 c5 13.f4 h6 14.Nf3 Nh5 15.Qf2 exf4 16.Bxf4 Bxf4 17.gxf4 Nxf4 18.Qg3 Qc7 19.Qh2 f5 20.b3 fxe4 21.dxe4 Qa5+ 22.Nd2 Nc6 23.Rf1 g5 24.h4 Nb4 25.Rc1 Qa3 26.Rb1 Nxc2+ 27.Kf2 Qb4 28.Nf3 g4 29.Qg3 Kh7 30.a3 Qb6 31.Bh1 d3 32.Ne3 c4 33.Qxf4 Rxf4 34.Kg3 Qxe3 0-1
Thanx!
What were time controls, or was this the one that was 45 min per side?
The final game is being played right now, right? I was about to suggest some moves but that would be shady as hell if there are still games to be played.
Edited by Chump Change (06/28/07 08:10 AM)
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cobrakai111
old hand
Reged: 08/01/06
Posts: 957
Loc: Brookline, MA
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What would have been the right handicap for this to be an even match? Minus the Q? Minus a Rook and pawn?
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curtains
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 05/04/03
Posts: 13960
Loc: Philadelphia
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Quote:
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Game 2, I'm black, queen's rook is missing. At the very end when he lost his queen he had only a few seconds left.
1.g3 d5 2.Bg2 e5 3.d3 c6 4.Nf3 Bd6 5.Bd2 Bg4 6.Nc3 Qc8 7.h3 Be6 8.e3 Nf6 9.Qe2 0-0 10.Ng5 Bd7 11.e4 d4 12.Nd1 c5 13.f4 h6 14.Nf3 Nh5 15.Qf2 exf4 16.Bxf4 Bxf4 17.gxf4 Nxf4 18.Qg3 Qc7 19.Qh2 f5 20.b3 fxe4 21.dxe4 Qa5+ 22.Nd2 Nc6 23.Rf1 g5 24.h4 Nb4 25.Rc1 Qa3 26.Rb1 Nxc2+ 27.Kf2 Qb4 28.Nf3 g4 29.Qg3 Kh7 30.a3 Qb6 31.Bh1 d3 32.Ne3 c4 33.Qxf4 Rxf4 34.Kg3 Qxe3 0-1
Thanx!
What were time controls, or was this the one that was 45 min per side?
The final game is being played right now, right? I was about to suggest some moves but that would be shady as hell if there are still games to be played.
No its over. Time control was 60 minutes per side, but he didn't actually lose on time if he went over, he simply had to pay $333 per every minute extra he used. He got down to a few minutes/seconds both games but never actually went over.
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samsdmf
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 04/01/06
Posts: 1881
Loc: N, Wales UK
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Quote:
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Game 2, I'm black, queen's rook is missing. At the very end when he lost his queen he had only a few seconds left.
1.g3 d5 2.Bg2 e5 3.d3 c6 4.Nf3 Bd6 5.Bd2 Bg4 6.Nc3 Qc8 7.h3 Be6 8.e3 Nf6 9.Qe2 0-0 10.Ng5 Bd7 11.e4 d4 12.Nd1 c5 13.f4 h6 14.Nf3 Nh5 15.Qf2 exf4 16.Bxf4 Bxf4 17.gxf4 Nxf4 18.Qg3 Qc7 19.Qh2 f5 20.b3 fxe4 21.dxe4 Qa5+ 22.Nd2 Nc6 23.Rf1 g5 24.h4 Nb4 25.Rc1 Qa3 26.Rb1 Nxc2+ 27.Kf2 Qb4 28.Nf3 g4 29.Qg3 Kh7 30.a3 Qb6 31.Bh1 d3 32.Ne3 c4 33.Qxf4 Rxf4 34.Kg3 Qxe3 0-1
Thanx!
What were time controls, or was this the one that was 45 min per side?
The final game is being played right now, right? I was about to suggest some moves but that would be shady as hell if there are still games to be played.
This is an insane awesome prop bet, Durrr has far far far tooo much money
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Chump Change
EuroBBV
Reged: 06/24/06
Posts: 9851
Loc: WITH UR POOR ROBBIN UR RICHES
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Quote:
What would have been the right handicap for this to be an even match? Minus the Q? Minus a Rook and pawn?
Many times the pawn in front of the removed rook is starts pushed, in this case it would start at A6, so durrr had a slightly bigger advantage than normal rook odds.
A queen feels like way too much, cuz even if durrr is inexperienced he's naturally intelligent enough to figure things out. I'd say 2 minor pieces. Usually in games like this rook odds is actually better, because the better player has one less minor piece to use and immediately rush to seize the initiative.
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Chump Change
EuroBBV
Reged: 06/24/06
Posts: 9851
Loc: WITH UR POOR ROBBIN UR RICHES
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Quote:
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Game 2, I'm black, queen's rook is missing. At the very end when he lost his queen he had only a few seconds left.
1.g3 d5 2.Bg2 e5 3.d3 c6 4.Nf3 Bd6 5.Bd2 Bg4 6.Nc3 Qc8 7.h3 Be6 8.e3 Nf6 9.Qe2 0-0 10.Ng5 Bd7 11.e4 d4 12.Nd1 c5 13.f4 h6 14.Nf3 Nh5 15.Qf2 exf4 16.Bxf4 Bxf4 17.gxf4 Nxf4 18.Qg3 Qc7 19.Qh2 f5 20.b3 fxe4 21.dxe4 Qa5+ 22.Nd2 Nc6 23.Rf1 g5 24.h4 Nb4 25.Rc1 Qa3 26.Rb1 Nxc2+ 27.Kf2 Qb4 28.Nf3 g4 29.Qg3 Kh7 30.a3 Qb6 31.Bh1 d3 32.Ne3 c4 33.Qxf4 Rxf4 34.Kg3 Qxe3 0-1
Thanx!
What were time controls, or was this the one that was 45 min per side?
The final game is being played right now, right? I was about to suggest some moves but that would be shady as hell if there are still games to be played.
No its over. Time control was 60 minutes per side, but he didn't actually lose on time if he went over, he simply had to pay $333 per every minute extra he used. He got down to a few minutes/seconds both games but never actually went over.
Yeah, I just noticed that it was game 2 and didn't even see game 1 already posted.
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Pudge714
Ship it Holla Brother
Reged: 05/04/05
Posts: 13713
Loc: The Black Kelly Holcomb
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Quote:
I do have to say, though a great poker player, durrrr is one of the biggest prop betting fish I know.
QFT at the PCA he gave odds on RPS.
Jman,
Will there be a recreation of the running prop bet?
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Chump Change
EuroBBV
Reged: 06/24/06
Posts: 9851
Loc: WITH UR POOR ROBBIN UR RICHES
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Is durrrr actually any good at chess, or does he just like betting on stuff?
hes not a lot better than me, and i consider myself terrible.
you really have to be quite bad at chess to ever lose with a rook advantage against anyone. just play defensively and force a bunch of trades -- they don't all even have to be even -- and you'll be unstoppable in the endgame. this is why chess is a terrible game to handicap -- a single pawn advantage would be enough to make any competitive player a favorite against the top gm's in the world.
That's not true, a piece advantage would likely be enough for me against a GM if it's not a very fast time control. But a pawn never, i would be crushed. I am rated just above 2000 FIDE.
Well you know that what color you draw as well as what pawn is removed has a great impact. A piece is easily enough and pete_fabrazio is basically correct in his statements.
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Chump Change
EuroBBV
Reged: 06/24/06
Posts: 9851
Loc: WITH UR POOR ROBBIN UR RICHES
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Quote:
did curtains try to pull the:
pawn e2 to e4
queen d1 to f3
bishop f1 to c4
queen takes pawn from f3 to f7 checkmate
gg
move because that wouldve been pretty lol to do
I wouldve loved to see:
White-durrrr black-curtains
1. f4 e6
2. g4 Qh4 mate
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smilingbill
enthusiast
Reged: 12/20/05
Posts: 251
Loc: idiot
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A very strong GM getting pawn odds vs a computer - puter crushes him anyway
Pawn's odds are being significantly overrated by some in this thread.
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citanul
SNG Pooh-Bah
Reged: 07/24/03
Posts: 11179
Loc: taking your lunch money
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curtains,
about what uscf rating would you estimate a player would have to carry to be 50/50 with you playing down a knight? down a rook?
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SlowHabit
*
Reged: 04/23/06
Posts: 1509
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Quote:
I do have to say, though a great poker player, durrrr is one of the biggest prop betting fish I know.
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1p0kerboy
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 11/14/03
Posts: 6026
Loc: 492k
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A+ thread.
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Triumph36
Good Citizen
Reged: 07/25/04
Posts: 9388
Loc: Osi Ukin'-yora
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i don't know chess well enough to piece out a match from the notation there - did durrrr make any obvious blunders/hang a piece? down a rook he should be able to force his opponent into trades which give him an edge.
anyway this is obviously awesome
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PocketElevens
veteran
Reged: 11/08/05
Posts: 1287
Loc: Line up for BustoCoaster
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Quote:
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Is durrrr actually any good at chess, or does he just like betting on stuff?
hes not a lot better than me, and i consider myself terrible.
you really have to be quite bad at chess to ever lose with a rook advantage against anyone. just play defensively and force a bunch of trades -- they don't all even have to be even -- and you'll be unstoppable in the endgame. this is why chess is a terrible game to handicap -- a single pawn advantage would be enough to make any competitive player a favorite against the top gm's in the world.
its really not as easy as you think.
I'm not sure how I would do but I know what I would try.
Right off the hop I'd take every power piece i could that forced him to use his turn to take my piece back. You'd really want to trade queens.
Once you get the superior player down to say his bishop and rook vs your bishop and two rooks (if his mom is cool with it) you're in good shape.
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Phone Booth
enthusiast
Reged: 08/08/06
Posts: 241
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Quote:
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Also, how does Curtains rate his edge in this game?
Did Durr ever have a chance or did he just bet 60k drawing stone dead....
'i win 100% of the time in this bet' -curtains
I had a feeling.... That's some pretty sick [censored]. 0% chance of beating an IM down a rook. And he originally wanted to play a GM down a knight... What convinced him that this was in any way feasible?
He may have beat a computer that way. Much easier than beating any human GM with the same handicap even if Computer >>>>> Average GM.
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ig06
newbie
Reged: 10/23/06
Posts: 27
Loc: UK
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Quote:
this is why chess is a terrible game to handicap -- a single pawn advantage would be enough to make any competitive player a favorite against the top gm's in the world.
There was a charity match a few years ago when Terence Chapman, a former England junior international/British U-14 Champion and FIDE rating a bit less than 2200, played Kasparov at 2 pawn odds. The two pawns were never centre pawns as Kasparov was of the opinion that this would be too big a handicap. I remember at the time there was a surprisingly wide range of opinions even amongst strong players as to what odds players of various strengths could give to Kasparov. At any rate, Kasparov narrowly won the match.
I can't even count the number of games where, as a mere FM I have won from what seemed like hopeless positions against decent players (and tbh vice-versa!).
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ChrisV
Ships It Crucial (to the kids)
Reged: 07/20/04
Posts: 5104
Loc: Adelaide, Australia
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I can't be bothered downloading a chess program to play through the moves, but I followed the first ten or so moves of game 1 in my head and durrr sucks pretty bad. I'm a decent chess player, by no means a strong player, but curtains would have little chance against me down a rook. A knight would probably be about level. Being a rook up is hugely strong as it's so easy to trade down into a position where the rook is a powerhouse and totally decisive.
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xxThe_Lebowskixx
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 08/21/06
Posts: 3784
Loc: Indeed.
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having him down a rook is much more valuable than a knight. you would have to be a very very strong player to beat a GM down only a knight.
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xxThe_Lebowskixx
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 08/21/06
Posts: 3784
Loc: Indeed.
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you guys are under estimating the different ways a GM could play to prevent you from simply trading pieces, specifically not using an opening you are familiar with like
e4 e5
nf3 nc6
bc4 nf6
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Cresspahl
stranger
Reged: 11/28/06
Posts: 16
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Just for the records: Did curtains/Shahade and Durr play their match on a chess server or real-life over the board?
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xxThe_Lebowskixx
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 08/21/06
Posts: 3784
Loc: Indeed.
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Is durrrr actually any good at chess, or does he just like betting on stuff?
hes not a lot better than me, and i consider myself terrible.
you really have to be quite bad at chess to ever lose with a rook advantage against anyone. just play defensively and force a bunch of trades -- they don't all even have to be even -- and you'll be unstoppable in the endgame. this is why chess is a terrible game to handicap -- a single pawn advantage would be enough to make any competitive player a favorite against the top gm's in the world.
its really not as easy as you think.
I'm not sure how I would do but I know what I would try.
Right off the hop I'd take every power piece i could that forced him to use his turn to take my piece back. You'd really want to trade queens.
Once you get the superior player down to say his bishop and rook vs your bishop and two rooks (if his mom is cool with it) you're in good shape.
you will make a mistake somewhere along the way. look at it like this: the rooks dont even come into play in a chess game until X number of moves, by that point you are already going to have given up atleast half the value of the rook. now you need to finish without losing - nah, its going to be very hard.
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Chump Change
EuroBBV
Reged: 06/24/06
Posts: 9851
Loc: WITH UR POOR ROBBIN UR RICHES
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Quote:
you guys are under estimating the different ways a GM could play to prevent you from simply trading pieces, specifically not using an opening you are familiar with like
e4 e5
nf3 nc6
bc4 nf6
Anybody that doesn't know that opening can't call themselves a competent player. Which side does the GM have in that sequence?
You do make a good point though KKF, one I alluded to earlier, in that the GM would have a harder time compromising the weaker player without a knight as oppopsed to without a rook.
Edited by Chump Change (06/28/07 11:10 AM)
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ReptileHouse
veteran
Reged: 05/17/05
Posts: 1203
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holy crap this is awesome.... playing through the games now. so sweet! :P
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Sciolist
In the know
Reged: 06/11/05
Posts: 4135
Loc: London
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Quote:
Just for the records: Did curtains/Shahade and Durr play their match on a chess server or real-life over the board?
Real life
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bones
STTF-USP Champion
Reged: 06/17/04
Posts: 5768
Loc: Blogging on icons
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Quote:
howd he pay? cashiers check?
lol...
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jalexand42
Hypothetical Ubermonkey
Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 1139
Loc: Open Pushing my range
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Nice job raptor, sick prop.
I'm curious tho, why didn't you get Samo to play for you?
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ReptileHouse
veteran
Reged: 05/17/05
Posts: 1203
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Quote:
any of you chess pros have a site that you recreate games on? i dont want to have to dig through my closet to find my old board and the stuff coming up in google are 1 on 1 games.
Google winboard/xboard. Free software that does the trick nicely.
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Arnfinn Madsen
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 01/05/05
Posts: 4440
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Out of 100 random club players, I would probably beat only around 20, but I still quite sure I would beat Curtains if he would play without a rook (my brother is about that level and I would beat him), but I think that I would be a favourite against Durrrr with a rook less, with a knight less I would crush him. The big difference is really between club players and sunday players, the best sunday players that beat all their friends and relatives etc. usually get crushed when they join a club, you don't remove all your easily exploitable mistakes until you regularily play people that know how to exploit them.
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CamelZoo
old hand
Reged: 05/12/05
Posts: 803
Loc: beat the gypsy
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cool bet
the only way i think durr or anyone else in his position would have a chance is to make it blitz, and hope that the GM you're playing is a blitz fish (fish being relative to his normal time abilities) and you are a well above average speed chess player. or...... if durrr were to play with no piece advantage, but curtains had to play blind, in a G/45 scenario, that would be cool.
i'm somewhere around 1600 uscf last time i played and have taken down players 2000+ at G/30 and below, but above i'd get slowly, painfully demolished, G/45 is enough for curtains to do just that - and i think ppl who think getting a pawn, knight, or even rook's advantage against a GM is a cinch win are out of their minds
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Triumph36
Good Citizen
Reged: 07/25/04
Posts: 9388
Loc: Osi Ukin'-yora
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wow looking at game 1, durrrr is the noataima of chess
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BustoPro
enthusiast
Reged: 04/19/07
Posts: 204
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Quote:
cool bet
the only way i think durr or anyone else in his position would have a chance is to make it blitz, and hope that the GM you're playing is a blitz fish (fish being relative to his normal time abilities) and you are a well above average speed chess player. or...... if durrr were to play with no piece advantage, but curtains had to play blind, in a G/45 scenario, that would be cool.
Curtains would give up very little playing blind. But don't tell durrrr.
Strong players actually pwn harder at blitz - skill differences become magnified - they still see most of what they would see anyway, and the weak player doesn't see much of anything. But don't tell durrrr.
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Fishfood4you
newbie
Reged: 06/13/06
Posts: 25
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Totally off topic but has anyone heard about a chess game between A known poker player that i think was Ram Vaswani and a well known Grand Master. The rumor i heard was they bet 100,000 and ram got 10-1. The rest of the rumor was that ram used an ear piece linked to a computer that had not lost ever in simulation. Obviously ram whips the GM and questions about how its possible for a poker player to beat a GM. Well i heard they caught known poker player with the ear piece and found out what happened. Pretty crazy if true. Any real info on if this actually occured and the actual players involved would be great! Again i have no actual knowledge if this is true just a rumor i heard
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ifoughtpiranhas
*
Reged: 05/19/07
Posts: 834
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Quote:
Totally off topic but has anyone heard about a chess game between A known poker player that i think was Ram Vaswani and a well known Grand Master. The rumor i heard was they bet 100,000 and ram got 10-1. The rest of the rumor was that ram used an ear piece linked to a computer that had not lost ever in simulation. Obviously ram whips the GM and questions about how its possible for a poker player to beat a GM. Well i heard they caught known poker player with the ear piece and found out what happened. Pretty crazy if true. Any real info on if this actually occured and the actual players involved would be great! Again i have no actual knowledge if this is true just a rumor i heard
i smell [censored]
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snagglepuss
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 01/24/06
Posts: 2992
Loc: this space for gambool
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i had action with durrrr with me laying 2-1 on the knight match. though i am sure i will lose back my winnings in an upcoming high stakes monopoly game.
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BustoPro
enthusiast
Reged: 04/19/07
Posts: 204
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Quote:
Totally off topic but has anyone heard about a chess game between A known poker player that i think was Ram Vaswani and a well known Grand Master. The rumor i heard was they bet 100,000 and ram got 10-1. The rest of the rumor was that ram used an ear piece linked to a computer that had not lost ever in simulation. Obviously ram whips the GM and questions about how its possible for a poker player to beat a GM. Well i heard they caught known poker player with the ear piece and found out what happened. Pretty crazy if true. Any real info on if this actually occured and the actual players involved would be great! Again i have no actual knowledge if this is true just a rumor i heard
Well he had to get the moves to the computer somehow, I heard it was by having a chessboard grid on the inside of the roof of his mouth, and there were sensors for each square, and he had his tongue sharpened, and each tooth represented a different chess piece. Sick, if true.
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Reef
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 07/31/04
Posts: 13198
Loc: PCPforums
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I used to be a strong club level player (1700ish USCF).. I put my chess program on highest GM setting and down a knight. With 5 or 10 minute time I only eeked out a few draws and lost most of them.
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ChrisV
Ships It Crucial (to the kids)
Reged: 07/20/04
Posts: 5104
Loc: Adelaide, Australia
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Quote:
the only way i think durr or anyone else in his position would have a chance is to make it blitz, and hope that the GM you're playing is a blitz fish
This is completely backwards. You're up a rook. The major way a typical club player would lose in that situation is to blunder. Playing blitz massively increases the chances of you blundering. I'd want it to be a correspondence game, if possible.
I think people are overestimating how difficult it is to win up a rook. Grandmasters are not magical. They can't change the fact of what is on the board. I would be a favourite against Garry Kasparov if he played down a rook. The basic gameplan is trade off as many pieces as possible, open some files so the rook is useful, and keep the king safe.
Contrast that with what durrr did (I've taken a look at the games now). In game 1 he failed to develop, instead playing the crazy Qa5 and stuffing his queen down on a3 in some attempted pawn-grab, when he's already a rook up. He allowed his king to be trapped in the center and broadly speaking that's why he lost. In game 2 he actually twice runs away from piece trades, retreating his bishop to e6 and then d7 when a trade with the knight is possible. The losing move in this game was d4 in response to curtains' e4. It not only closed up the center, reducing the power of his extra rook, but it locked all his pieces away from the K-side, where curtains is about to attack. Look at the board after ... c5 and notice how utterly locked out of the K-side durrr's queen is. It's going to take him like 4 moves to get her there if he needs to.
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The Yugoslavian
STTF-HUC II Champion
Reged: 09/24/04
Posts: 7718
Loc: back from beyond the grave
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HAHAHAHAH DURRR ACTUALLY DID THIS BET WITH YOU OMG!
I remember you talking to me about this bet and just laughing b/c there was like basically no way for durrr to win it vs. a world champ like curtains.
curtains - did you smack durr in the face with your dick after the match was done?
raptor - were you prepared to strip down and dance in front of durrr 4tw if the match got close?
durrr - please let me prop bet you for monies
Yugoslav
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eviljeff
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 01/26/05
Posts: 5304
Loc: couching
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Quote:
Totally off topic but has anyone heard about a chess game between A known poker player that i think was Ram Vaswani and a well known Grand Master. The rumor i heard was they bet 100,000 and ram got 10-1. The rest of the rumor was that ram used an ear piece linked to a computer that had not lost ever in simulation. Obviously ram whips the GM and questions about how its possible for a poker player to beat a GM. Well i heard they caught known poker player with the ear piece and found out what happened. Pretty crazy if true. Any real info on if this actually occured and the actual players involved would be great! Again i have no actual knowledge if this is true just a rumor i heard
pretty sure this was an episode of Cheers
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The Yugoslavian
STTF-HUC II Champion
Reged: 09/24/04
Posts: 7718
Loc: back from beyond the grave
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Quote:
I followed the first ten or so moves of game 1 in my head and durrr sucks pretty bad.
Seriously, he's even worse than Raptor alluded to. I can picture how the rest of the game goes pretty easily.
Yugoslav
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Triumph36
Good Citizen
Reged: 07/25/04
Posts: 9388
Loc: Osi Ukin'-yora
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Quote:
Quote:
Totally off topic but has anyone heard about a chess game between A known poker player that i think was Ram Vaswani and a well known Grand Master. The rumor i heard was they bet 100,000 and ram got 10-1. The rest of the rumor was that ram used an ear piece linked to a computer that had not lost ever in simulation. Obviously ram whips the GM and questions about how its possible for a poker player to beat a GM. Well i heard they caught known poker player with the ear piece and found out what happened. Pretty crazy if true. Any real info on if this actually occured and the actual players involved would be great! Again i have no actual knowledge if this is true just a rumor i heard
pretty sure this was an episode of Cheers
plz post more
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xxThe_Lebowskixx
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 08/21/06
Posts: 3784
Loc: Indeed.
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Quote:
Quote:
you guys are under estimating the different ways a GM could play to prevent you from simply trading pieces, specifically not using an opening you are familiar with like
e4 e5
nf3 nc6
bc4 nf6
Anybody that doesn't know that opening can't call themselves a competent player. Which side does the GM have in that sequence?
You do make a good point though KKF, one I alluded to earlier, in that the GM would have a harder time compromising the weaker player without a knight as oppopsed to without a rook.
no, i meant the GM wouldnt be playing a simple opening like that which would allow him to just trade pieces. d4 d5 is much harder to play than e5 e4 imho.
i think a rook is more valuable than a knight, not that it matters much because durrr had zero chance.
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Admo
2p2's Photoshop Laureate
Reged: 03/24/06
Posts: 707
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Quote:
1.d4 d5 2.c4 Bf5 3.Nc3 c6 4.Bf4 e6 5.c5 Qa5 6.a3 Bxc5 7.dxc5 Qxc5 8.Rc1 d4 9.Ne4 Qa5+ 10.b4 Qxa3 11.Nd6+ Ke7 12.Qxd4 Nd7 13.e4 Bg6 14.Ra1 c5 15.Qxg7 Qxb4+ 16.Bd2 Qd4 17.Qxd4 cxd4 18.Bb4 Kf6 19.f4 e5 20.f5 Bh5 21.h3 Nh6 22.Bd2 Ke7 23.Nxb7 Rab8 24.Na5 Rhc8 25.Bxh6 f6 26.Bc1 Kf7 27.g4 Nc5 28.gxh5 Nxe4 29.Bc4+ Ke8 30.Ne2 Nd6 31.Be6 Rc7 32.Ba3 Ne4 33.Bd5 Nc5 34.Bc6+ Kf8 35.Bxc5+ Kg7 36.Bd6 Rxc6 37.Nxc6 Rb6 38.Rxa7+ Kh6 39.Bf8+ Kxh5 40.Rxh7+ Kg5 41.Ne7 Rb1+ 42.Kf2 d3 43.Bh6+ Kh4 44.Be3# 1-0
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snagglepuss
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 01/24/06
Posts: 2992
Loc: this space for gambool
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Post deleted by snagglepuss
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bones
STTF-USP Champion
Reged: 06/17/04
Posts: 5768
Loc: Blogging on icons
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Curtains,
Is this your biggest chess score?
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antipeon
member
Reged: 02/14/07
Posts: 129
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Quote:
you really have to be quite bad at chess to ever lose with a rook advantage against anyone. just play defensively and force a bunch of trades -- they don't all even have to be even -- and you'll be unstoppable in the endgame. this is why chess is a terrible game to handicap -- a single pawn advantage would be enough to make any competitive player a favorite against the top gm's in the world.
A single pawn advantage would make a "competitive" player a fav over top gm's? LOL, that's the most ridiculus statement in this thread, first of all what do you call competitive player? 2000 ICC?
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xxThe_Lebowskixx
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 08/21/06
Posts: 3784
Loc: Indeed.
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A plane ticket to curtains city in the usa is probably < $300. If you are so confident then why dont you arrange something?
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Thrahl
old hand
Reged: 06/15/05
Posts: 946
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Quote:
Quote:
the only way i think durr or anyone else in his position would have a chance is to make it blitz, and hope that the GM you're playing is a blitz fish
This is completely backwards. You're up a rook. The major way a typical club player would lose in that situation is to blunder. Playing blitz massively increases the chances of you blundering. I'd want it to be a correspondence game, if possible.
I think people are overestimating how difficult it is to win up a rook. Grandmasters are not magical. They can't change the fact of what is on the board. I would be a favourite against Garry Kasparov if he played down a rook. The basic gameplan is trade off as many pieces as possible, open some files so the rook is useful, and keep the king safe.
Contrast that with what durrr did (I've taken a look at the games now). In game 1 he failed to develop, instead playing the crazy Qa5 and stuffing his queen down on a3 in some attempted pawn-grab, when he's already a rook up. He allowed his king to be trapped in the center and broadly speaking that's why he lost. In game 2 he actually twice runs away from piece trades, retreating his bishop to e6 and then d7 when a trade with the knight is possible. The losing move in this game was d4 in response to curtains' e4. It not only closed up the center, reducing the power of his extra rook, but it locked all his pieces away from the K-side, where curtains is about to attack. Look at the board after ... c5 and notice how utterly locked out of the K-side durrr's queen is. It's going to take him like 4 moves to get her there if he needs to.
Plenty of Masters/GM have gone to Central Park and got owned playing speed chess. If youre reasonably good at speed chess ,this would def be the way to go IMO. Much easier to trade down in Blitz. And I certainly dont want to play a master in a game where he has time to think more than a handful of moves ahead.
And you would def not be a fav over Kasparov down a rook. Hes going to mate you long before that rook comes in to play.
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Ship Ship McGipp
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 06/07/07
Posts: 3884
Loc: implied millionaire
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lol @ you cats, i'm counting the months until i'm 21
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burkoboy
enthusiast
Reged: 12/22/05
Posts: 382
Loc: Cincinnati/ OSU
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How would you of handled a stalemate? A win for Durr?
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Triumph36
Good Citizen
Reged: 07/25/04
Posts: 9388
Loc: Osi Ukin'-yora
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Quote:
Post deleted by snagglepuss
aww, why'd you delete this
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BustoPro
enthusiast
Reged: 04/19/07
Posts: 204
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Quote:
And you would def not be a fav over Kasparov down a rook. Hes going to mate you long before that rook comes in to play.
LOL at this statement, when you have no idea how good ChrisV is. Any USCF Expert (>2000 US, top 1% or so of *tournament* chess players) would be a clear favorite over Kasparov with rook odds, IMHO.
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snagglepuss
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 01/24/06
Posts: 2992
Loc: this space for gambool
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triumph,
didnt want to be posting pictures of people w/o their consent.
burkoboy,
they flipped for every aspect of the game beforehand.
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chesterboy
journeyman
Reged: 06/24/07
Posts: 80
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I'm about 2100 (much weaker than IM) and from the looks of those games I would have easily won with the same handicap vs. durr. What a great bet lol.
As far as various handicaps, a GM would beat almost any basic master with pawn odds, much more so a weaker player.
A decent club strength player should be able to win with rook odds most of the time, and piece odds would be close.
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BustoPro
enthusiast
Reged: 04/19/07
Posts: 204
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Quote:
Plenty of Masters/GM have gone to Central Park and got owned playing speed chess.
vs. extremely strong blitz players, not vs. durrr. Your argument is completely irrelevant.
Edited by BustoPro (06/28/07 01:35 PM)
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Apathy
2006 and 2007 HSNL Heads-up Champion
Reged: 03/03/04
Posts: 4898
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Durrr would have been much better off with a 2 hour clock.
if he was a better prop better he could have likely gotten himself a 2 hour clock and Curtains a 5 min clock.
Curtains was saying he thought he would still win in the down a knight bet with a 2 min clock, not sure how he feels about the down a rook bet.
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quirkasaurus
addict
Reged: 06/04/07
Posts: 428
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Reading through these posts, it's amazing to me how people
can be so unappreciative of experts who have worked for
years to develop their skills. If you've heard of Johnny
Morton, the NFL wide receiver, who tried to fight in the
UFL after training in martial arts for 2 months... He
got knocked out in under 2 minutes.
Imagine if the prop bet was basketball; a chess grandmaster
is the chess equivalent of an NBA player ( or maybe even
all-star ) at the worst. The average "good" chess player,
( ie less than 1700 rating ) would be analogous to a
weekend gym rat who loves basketball.
Would anyone in their right mind bet on the gym rat no
matter HOW good the odds ? ( 10 point handicap to 20,
NBA player can only shoot from 3 point land... etc... )
Probably not... unless the NBA player had to play in
showshoes, or blind-folded, or something utterly
ridiculous...
Or imagine the gym rat vs. an NFL player, one-on-one,
a la those old American Gladiator events. How often
did the average Joe beat the Gladiator ???
My point is: non-experts tend to completely trivialize
the skills of experts in their field to their own
detriment; especially in games of skill or athletic
endeavors.
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darom03
don't call me, I'll call you
Reged: 09/10/05
Posts: 1314
Loc: Not USA!!! \o/
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Quote:
Imagine if the prop bet was basketball
This must be the worst analogy of the year by far. 
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El Diablo
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 09/02/02
Posts: 33802
Loc: Parts Unknown
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rbk,
"i wonder if there were any suckers there that put action on durr?"
Raptor tried to sucker me into an even money bet on durrrrrrr, but I was too savvy for the kid to hustle.
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892King
enthusiast
Reged: 11/17/06
Posts: 261
Loc: Shove for the variance
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Quote:
Quote:
1.d4 d5 2.c4 Bf5 3.Nc3 c6 4.Bf4 e6 5.c5 Qa5 6.a3 Bxc5 7.dxc5 Qxc5 8.Rc1 d4 9.Ne4 Qa5+ 10.b4 Qxa3 11.Nd6+ Ke7 12.Qxd4 Nd7 13.e4 Bg6 14.Ra1 c5 15.Qxg7 Qxb4+ 16.Bd2 Qd4 17.Qxd4 cxd4 18.Bb4 Kf6 19.f4 e5 20.f5 Bh5 21.h3 Nh6 22.Bd2 Ke7 23.Nxb7 Rab8 24.Na5 Rhc8 25.Bxh6 f6 26.Bc1 Kf7 27.g4 Nc5 28.gxh5 Nxe4 29.Bc4+ Ke8 30.Ne2 Nd6 31.Be6 Rc7 32.Ba3 Ne4 33.Bd5 Nc5 34.Bc6+ Kf8 35.Bxc5+ Kg7 36.Bd6 Rxc6 37.Nxc6 Rb6 38.Rxa7+ Kh6 39.Bf8+ Kxh5 40.Rxh7+ Kg5 41.Ne7 Rb1+ 42.Kf2 d3 43.Bh6+ Kh4 44.Be3# 1-0
lol
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rothko
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 01/28/06
Posts: 5437
Loc: nowhere, really
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what was in it for curtains?
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Stealthy
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 10/09/04
Posts: 2813
Loc: Contemplating life
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Quote:
Durrr actually played match 1 with Black and is playing match 2 with white now. Should there be a 3rd match he gets white again.
One of the best lines from the chess match #1:
Durrr: damn I screwed up back there, if I didnt make that mistake I couldve won this one.
Curtains: Now let's not get carried away.
-Apathy
Top quality thread A+++
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BustoPro
enthusiast
Reged: 04/19/07
Posts: 204
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Quote:
what was in it for curtains?
10% freeroll
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ipp147
veteran
Reged: 05/04/04
Posts: 1584
Loc: UK Donkey
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Quote:
what was in it for curtains?
raptor said a 10% freeroll if he one - so $5k or whatever.
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roaaahhh
addict
Reged: 04/18/07
Posts: 567
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roughly 5+k
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rothko
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 01/28/06
Posts: 5437
Loc: nowhere, really
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ah, sorry. i missed that.
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LonesomeFugitive
enthusiast
Reged: 04/26/07
Posts: 378
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Quote:
I do have to say, though a great poker player, durrrr is one of the biggest prop betting fish I know.
Maybe he needs to take lessons from Sklansky on never taking bets you don't have an edge in.
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JaBlue
Naked Mountain
Reged: 09/08/04
Posts: 5044
Loc: UCSD
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Quote:
Also Curtains said he can reconstruct the entire match(es) from memory so maybe he would do that for everyone if there is interest (not sure if he would spend time on that or not).
That would be real easy for him and I for one am interested.
edit: oops didn't see it was done. And I'm pretty sure I could beat an IM down a knight. Definitely if he's down a rook. And I'm not very good.
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blah_blah
enthusiast
Reged: 02/12/07
Posts: 378
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Quote:
Reading through these posts, it's amazing to me how people
can be so unappreciative of experts who have worked for
years to develop their skills. If you've heard of Johnny
Morton, the NFL wide receiver, who tried to fight in the
UFL after training in martial arts for 2 months... He
got knocked out in under 2 minutes.
Imagine if the prop bet was basketball; a chess grandmaster
is the chess equivalent of an NBA player ( or maybe even
all-star ) at the worst. The average "good" chess player,
( ie less than 1700 rating ) would be analogous to a
weekend gym rat who loves basketball.
Would anyone in their right mind bet on the gym rat no
matter HOW good the odds ? ( 10 point handicap to 20,
NBA player can only shoot from 3 point land... etc... )
Probably not... unless the NBA player had to play in
showshoes, or blind-folded, or something utterly
ridiculous...
Or imagine the gym rat vs. an NFL player, one-on-one,
a la those old American Gladiator events. How often
did the average Joe beat the Gladiator ???
My point is: non-experts tend to completely trivialize
the skills of experts in their field to their own
detriment; especially in games of skill or athletic
endeavors.
I think that you are missing the point a little. I have played chess while drunk before and beaten a (sober) near GM with a queen handicap. I am sure that I could train myself to win in this situation (with a rook handicap) in less than a week. There is a rating cutoff point in which all players with ratings > X can beat a GM of Curtains' level with > 90% probability. X is almost certainly a lot lower than you think.
A small perturbation in 'game fairness' can only be measured in the context of the game.
For example: I play Garry Kasparov right now with a handicap of bishop, knight, rook on one side of the board: I crush him.
I play Tiger Woods with 4 clubs in his bag that he gets to choose: he absolutely crushes me and I am about a 12 handicap.
I play TLK in HU LHE and only get top 33% hands: I should be a winner.
I play PA in HU LO8 and only get top 33% hands: I probably am a loser.
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Victor
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 07/13/03
Posts: 11773
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"I play PA in HU LO8 and only get top 33% hands: I probably am a loser."
ok, ive never played this game and will take this bet any day.
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Pudge714
Ship it Holla Brother
Reged: 05/04/05
Posts: 13713
Loc: The Black Kelly Holcomb
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Quote:
Durrr would have been much better off with a 2 hour clock.
if he was a better prop better he could have likely gotten himself a 2 hour clock and Curtains a 5 min clock.
Curtains was saying he thought he would still win in the down a knight bet with a 2 min clock, not sure how he feels about the down a rook bet.
Also durrr should have gotten odds on the knight bet if he was taking even money on the rook bet.
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BustoPro
enthusiast
Reged: 04/19/07
Posts: 204
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Quote:
edit: oops didn't see it was done. And I'm pretty sure I could beat an IM down a knight. Definitely if he's down a rook. And I'm not very good.
If you're truly "not very good", how can you have any idea what it takes to beat somebody who is very, very good, and therefore how would you know what handicap is fair? Or did you not bother reading the rest of the thread, and notice that durrrr lost a bit of money because he thought the same thing?
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muxplust
old hand
Reged: 05/08/06
Posts: 871
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durr is smart
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StregaChess
old hand
Reged: 01/04/06
Posts: 1096
Loc: Support Ron Paul for President
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Quote:
Sick. There's a reason people don't gamble on chess. Well.... normal people.
Nothing could be further from the truth. Go to Washington Square Park or any warm moist spot where deviant chess players congregate and you'll find folks gambling on chess.
(Yes you did say normal people but with that bar who gambles?)
It's small stakes compared to a poker player's prop bets but just the same chess players gamble. Asa Hoffman use to offer weak class players time odds and mating square. The "fish" could pick the square before the games started, like d4 (middle of the board) and Asa would have to "mate" the on d4 or else he's lose the bet.
I’ve watched IM Skirazi play GM Dzindzichashvili, in speed chess losing like $5,000 in about 20 minutes of play.
I guess the major difference in chess gambling is if you can put your ego aside you should be smart enough to know the outcome before the bet starts.
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Bronstein
journeyman
Reged: 05/01/05
Posts: 81
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Some facts:
I've played countless blitz-games (5 minutes) vs guys who played 1 year, giving a queen or both rooks. Always winning them. Main reason: the time-pressure. So don't think a knight or rook is an awful lot. Sometimes it is, but most players are so weak (compared to an IM) that it hardly matters.
The average club-player will have the worse of it with knight-odds as the IM has great chances for a draw when things go wrong.
I guess players around 2200 FIDE easily beat the IM with knight-odds (it's the level that make IMs sweat in regular games).
But any unschooled player has no chance whatsoever with knight-odds. Whether it's vs 2200 or 2400 also doesn't matter, as long as his opponent is flexible enough to realize he shouldn't play the theoretically best moves but those who offer the best chances.
Btw: curtains would have beaten him blindfold too, seriously. His level would hardly drop.
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durron597
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 04/07/04
Posts: 30000
Loc: Folding
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Quote:
Quote:
what was in it for curtains?
raptor said a 10% freeroll if he one - so $5k or whatever.
im actually surprised he wouldn't try to get more action (with risk) on himself
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Masquerade
addict
Reged: 09/19/04
Posts: 652
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Quote:
I used to be a strong club level player (1700ish USCF).. I put my chess program on highest GM setting and down a knight. With 5 or 10 minute time I only eked out a few draws and lost most of them.
I believe you'd need to be ~2000 USCF to be +EV playing a GM at knight odds. A 2200 USCF player should be winning most games.
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BustoPro
enthusiast
Reged: 04/19/07
Posts: 204
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
what was in it for curtains?
raptor said a 10% freeroll if he one - so $5k or whatever.
im actually surprised he wouldn't try to get more action (with risk) on himself
Three letters... begins with "N"...
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StregaChess
old hand
Reged: 01/04/06
Posts: 1096
Loc: Support Ron Paul for President
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Quote:
this is why chess is a terrible game to handicap -- a single pawn advantage would be enough to make any competitive player a favorite against the top gm's in the world.
This is so wrong, a random GM with pawn and move would be the underdog against a world champion at the top of his game. IM Boinn lost to Kasparov in a simul, while not pawn and move, one would think that facing 39 other players at the same time would be an equalizer.... not...
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JaBlue
Naked Mountain
Reged: 09/08/04
Posts: 5044
Loc: UCSD
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Quote:
Quote:
edit: oops didn't see it was done. And I'm pretty sure I could beat an IM down a knight. Definitely if he's down a rook. And I'm not very good.
If you're truly "not very good", how can you have any idea what it takes to beat somebody who is very, very good, and therefore how would you know what handicap is fair? Or did you not bother reading the rest of the thread, and notice that durrrr lost a bit of money because he thought the same thing?
I am a huge fav. against Durrr. I am extremely good at chess compared to the average nonstudying player and better than a lot of players who have been playing and studying for a while. Still nowhere near someone like Curtains though.
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StregaChess
old hand
Reged: 01/04/06
Posts: 1096
Loc: Support Ron Paul for President
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Quote:
if he was a better prop better he could have likely gotten himself a 2 hour clock and Curtains a 5 min clock.
I don't think it would help that much. Curtains can think while he's not on move. That helps a ton, if he was a GREAT prop better he's take a 2 hour clock but make Curtains stand behind a "CURTAIN" (hahaha..) when not on move...
But actually that would not help tons either, he's still be able to review the game blindfolded...
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BustoPro
enthusiast
Reged: 04/19/07
Posts: 204
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
edit: oops didn't see it was done. And I'm pretty sure I could beat an IM down a knight. Definitely if he's down a rook. And I'm not very good.
If you're truly "not very good", how can you have any idea what it takes to beat somebody who is very, very good, and therefore how would you know what handicap is fair? Or did you not bother reading the rest of the thread, and notice that durrrr lost a bit of money because he thought the same thing?
I am a huge fav. against Durrr. I am extremely good at chess compared to the average nonstudying player and better than a lot of players who have been playing and studying for a while. Still nowhere near someone like Curtains though.
In other words, you ARE very good. But not an expert. Whatever, I guess.
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BustoPro
enthusiast
Reged: 04/19/07
Posts: 204
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Quote:
Quote:
if he was a better prop better he could have likely gotten himself a 2 hour clock and Curtains a 5 min clock.
I don't think it would help that much. Curtains can think while he's not on move. That helps a ton, if he was a GREAT prop better he's take a 2 hour clock but make Curtains stand behind a "CURTAIN" (hahaha..) when not on move...
But actually that would not help tons either, he's still be able to review the game blindfolded...
How about this... blindfolded, and he isn't told durrr's move unless it involves a capture.
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SuitedSixes
Sexual Tyrannosaurus
Reged: 05/27/04
Posts: 4810
Loc: Buy shrits!
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Raptor,
Please buy one of these with your winnings, thankyewveddymuch
Sixes
P.S.
Buy two and I'll deliver in person.
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blah_blah
enthusiast
Reged: 02/12/07
Posts: 378
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Quote:
"I play PA in HU LO8 and only get top 33% hands: I probably am a loser."
ok, ive never played this game and will take this bet any day.
I am just trying to illustrate the point that structural issues within a game (e.g., hands running much closer together as they do in LO8 compared to LHE) influence how big a seemingly small handicap actually is.
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curtains
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 05/04/03
Posts: 13960
Loc: Philadelphia
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Quote:
A very strong GM getting pawn odds vs a computer - puter crushes him anyway
Pawn's odds are being significantly overrated by some in this thread.
This match was a fast time control, which greatly helps the computer's chances.
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curtains
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 05/04/03
Posts: 13960
Loc: Philadelphia
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Quote:
curtains,
about what uscf rating would you estimate a player would have to carry to be 50/50 with you playing down a knight? down a rook?
Knight: 1400-1500?
Rook: 1200-1300?
Random guesses could be off easily.
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curtains
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 05/04/03
Posts: 13960
Loc: Philadelphia
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Quote:
Quote:
the only way i think durr or anyone else in his position would have a chance is to make it blitz, and hope that the GM you're playing is a blitz fish
This is completely backwards. You're up a rook. The major way a typical club player would lose in that situation is to blunder. Playing blitz massively increases the chances of you blundering. I'd want it to be a correspondence game, if possible.
I think people are overestimating how difficult it is to win up a rook. Grandmasters are not magical. They can't change the fact of what is on the board. I would be a favourite against Garry Kasparov if he played down a rook. The basic gameplan is trade off as many pieces as possible, open some files so the rook is useful, and keep the king safe.
Contrast that with what durrr did (I've taken a look at the games now). In game 1 he failed to develop, instead playing the crazy Qa5 and stuffing his queen down on a3 in some attempted pawn-grab, when he's already a rook up. He allowed his king to be trapped in the center and broadly speaking that's why he lost. In game 2 he actually twice runs away from piece trades, retreating his bishop to e6 and then d7 when a trade with the knight is possible. The losing move in this game was d4 in response to curtains' e4. It not only closed up the center, reducing the power of his extra rook, but it locked all his pieces away from the K-side, where curtains is about to attack. Look at the board after ... c5 and notice how utterly locked out of the K-side durrr's queen is. It's going to take him like 4 moves to get her there if he needs to.
Uhhh.... I was black in game 2.
Also its clearly true that speed chess would give me more of an edge than game 60.
Also any expert rated player should be a favorite over the World Champion at rook odds IMO.
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curtains
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 05/04/03
Posts: 13960
Loc: Philadelphia
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Quote:
Curtains,
Is this your biggest chess score?
Sadly for the world of chess, yes. That's unless you count the fellowship I won for like 64k over 2 years.
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curtains
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 05/04/03
Posts: 13960
Loc: Philadelphia
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
the only way i think durr or anyone else in his position would have a chance is to make it blitz, and hope that the GM you're playing is a blitz fish
This is completely backwards. You're up a rook. The major way a typical club player would lose in that situation is to blunder. Playing blitz massively increases the chances of you blundering. I'd want it to be a correspondence game, if possible.
I think people are overestimating how difficult it is to win up a rook. Grandmasters are not magical. They can't change the fact of what is on the board. I would be a favourite against Garry Kasparov if he played down a rook. The basic gameplan is trade off as many pieces as possible, open some files so the rook is useful, and keep the king safe.
Contrast that with what durrr did (I've taken a look at the games now). In game 1 he failed to develop, instead playing the crazy Qa5 and stuffing his queen down on a3 in some attempted pawn-grab, when he's already a rook up. He allowed his king to be trapped in the center and broadly speaking that's why he lost. In game 2 he actually twice runs away from piece trades, retreating his bishop to e6 and then d7 when a trade with the knight is possible. The losing move in this game was d4 in response to curtains' e4. It not only closed up the center, reducing the power of his extra rook, but it locked all his pieces away from the K-side, where curtains is about to attack. Look at the board after ... c5 and notice how utterly locked out of the K-side durrr's queen is. It's going to take him like 4 moves to get her there if he needs to.
Plenty of Masters/GM have gone to Central Park and got owned playing speed chess. If youre reasonably good at speed chess ,this would def be the way to go IMO. Much easier to trade down in Blitz. And I certainly dont want to play a master in a game where he has time to think more than a handful of moves ahead.
And you would def not be a fav over Kasparov down a rook. Hes going to mate you long before that rook comes in to play.
lol, GM's don't go to Central Park and get owned at blitz by random people. There is maybe one person who is a favorite over a random GM, but he is known to be GM strength himself in blitz chess (Yaacov is his name and he's only been around a few years). Everyone else who plays on the street or in the parks in NY, for the last 10 years, is not especially strong. Maybe master to 2400 strength at blitz but I would always have a huge edge over them.
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citanul
SNG Pooh-Bah
Reged: 07/24/03
Posts: 11179
Loc: taking your lunch money
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wow, some of the estimations of how big or small a knight or rook odds are are totally absurd. i don't have a great estimation of what it is, though curtains likely does. however it's obviously a scale that changes. while skills and ratings clump near the top, (even due to just the plain rating adjustment formula being different for higher ratings than low) the same is obviously not true for lower and mid ratings.
my impulse is that no adequately strong (probably any random 2200+ish but maybe any random IM+ is what's necessary. but hey, i'd personally doubt that an expert (2000+) would lose to a champion given a knight) player would ever lose to the world champion if given a knight, and probably 2 pawns would be enough as well.
however the difference between a 1400 and a 2000 is just absurd, and considering we're probably looking at durrr being like an 1100-1200(?), and curtains being a 2400+ (uscf), well, it's just a ridiculous difference.
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curtains
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 05/04/03
Posts: 13960
Loc: Philadelphia
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Quote:
I'm about 2100 (much weaker than IM) and from the looks of those games I would have easily won with the same handicap vs. durr. What a great bet lol.
As far as various handicaps, a GM would beat almost any basic master with pawn odds, much more so a weaker player.
A decent club strength player should be able to win with rook odds most of the time, and piece odds would be close.
Somehow the games felt tougher than they may have seemed. durrr never flat out gave away material in one move and seemed to be working very hard. A lot of his moves lacked any chess understanding but I did feel like I had to calculate some stuff a few times and that if I made a careless mistake he was capable of picking up on it. I mean the first game was actually pretty competitive until he played ....Kf7 on like move 25-30. Despite that ok I'd probably win starting with 2 minutes on my clock, but it'd be a lot closer.
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curtains
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 05/04/03
Posts: 13960
Loc: Philadelphia
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Quote:
Quote:
Imagine if the prop bet was basketball
This must be the worst analogy of the year by far.
I don't think its a bad analogy at all. If a friend of Kobe Bryant offers me some prop bet in basketball for like 100k, I probably won't take it, regardless of how great it sound |
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