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Coaching/Training >> Stoxpoker.com

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The BryceModerator
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Bryce is "In the Well"
      #12688974 - 10/27/07 02:12 AM

Alright, so I'm next up "In the Well." I'll answer your questions as candidly as possible, but I may not answer quite everything (though everything will receive some sort of an answer). The one thing off the top of my head that I will not discuss is specific edges against people I play, but other than that everything else should be fair game.

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GSykes
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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: The Bryce]
      #12688983 - 10/27/07 02:13 AM

first....etc.

poker story?


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scorer
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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: GSykes]
      #12689909 - 10/27/07 04:47 AM

what is your game you prfer the most as in stakes and amt of players?? Do you prefer one site over the other?? Who have you taken poker lessons from in the past?? Will you be coming out with a book or dvd's?? Thanks Bryce

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kickabuck
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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: GSykes]
      #12689980 - 10/27/07 05:01 AM

1) Do you feel that you are approaching a place in the limit game where one could be described as virtually unexploitable?

2) I imagine you feel as though your intellectual approach to limit poker is the optimal one, however are there ways of thinking about/playing the game that you have not taken the time, or at least enough time, to explore?


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DeathDonkey
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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: kickabuck]
      #12690593 - 10/27/07 07:38 AM

What adjustments do you make preflop (HU) vs a tough player who is 3 betting out of the BB with a bit too wide a range (or do you think there is no such thing as too wide if you tailor your game around that style) - an 80/60 type guy who plays fairly well postflop.

There are a ton of HU pros who bounce between like 10/20 and 50/100 on Full Tilt. What are they doing wrong or what is exploitable in their play that is keeping them from HU superstardom. (if that's too broad I'm trying to categorize the player type who is clearly decent at HU, winning for the most part, but not quite able to be the next Freedom25 - what's holding them back?)

Thanks,
DeathDonkey


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DaveyDonk
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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: DeathDonkey]
      #12690851 - 10/27/07 08:50 AM

Is your foray into HU NL going to have any chance of being your main game at some point, or are you going to stick with limit primarily and just make this your "project"?

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Allday Everyday
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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: The Bryce]
      #12690979 - 10/27/07 09:20 AM

Hi The Bryce. Thanks for going into The Well.

What are the biggest BB downswings you have had at a couple limits? How did you feel about them?

Who do you think are the best limit hold 'em players in the world? HU and in longer versions of the game. Online and live.

What do you believe are the best poker books ever written? Which helped your game the most? Have you read Mathematics of Poker? If so, what did you think of it? Did it improve your game?

Do high stakes players take advantage of reload bonuses at the online sites? For example, do they bother with the Stars or FTP 125 dollar bonus every 5 months or whatever? If yes, and they don't appear to have received their bonus, do they bother e-mailing support to find out why?

You are hosting a poker game. You may pick the number of seats and the stakes. You can choose to invite absolutely any person ever living or deceased and they will accept. Who do you invite and what stakes will you play?


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chesterboy
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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: Allday Everyday]
      #12692583 - 10/27/07 01:05 PM

What do you charge for coaching?

If you had to start over what would your bankroll plan be?


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Farfenugen
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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: chesterboy]
      #12693280 - 10/27/07 02:19 PM

What do you think has helped you improve your game the most?

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yellowjack
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Reged: 11/16/04
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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: Farfenugen]
      #12693666 - 10/27/07 02:56 PM

Did you tilt vs. schnibl0r when you played him a few days ago?

In the Classroom 108 you give us a brief glimpse into solving hands w/ PokerStove). How many different cases did you do before you had a general sense of how to approach each flop given your holding? Also, are you going to continue this particular aspect of the classroom? It seems vital in improving one's game.

Imagine you are in a game where your opponent is raising at every opportunity preflop, bet/calling every flop, calling or raising the turn, and folding the river 60% he does not have the betting lead, calling 25% of the time with a pair, and bluff-raising 15% of the time. How does this affect your PF hand range, and what postflop look like?

What factors into finding:
1) optimal re-bluffing % on a dry board (e.g. J44r)
2) whether or not to free SD on the turn

How many hands did it take for you see your edge vs. a player in your:
1) 5/10 to 30/60 days
2) 50/100 to 200/400 days
3) current games


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The BryceModerator
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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: GSykes]
      #12693876 - 10/27/07 03:15 PM

Quote:

first....etc.

poker story?




Uh, this would be kind of a long one to answer in full, so I'll have to give you the cliff notes version I started playing online poker in early '05 (had a roomate who dealt at a local casino and at that point a lot of MTG players were jumping over to poker) read the basic literature and got a good start on the basics through a Vancouver-based website (www.604poker.com). By late summer I was propping 5/10 LHE on prima and making a fair bit more money doing that than at my dayjob, and since I didn't care for my dayjob much (was a tedious machining job I took when I was 18 with the idea of banking money for university) I decided to drop it in favor of taking on poker full time (this was done a few months prematurely in retrospect). That sort of went on for about a year of propping on Prima, Crypto and AP, and while I was making something like 1.5BB/100 in rakeback over that period I was always frustrated that I wasn't actually producing a pokertracker winrate in these tougher games (despite having made just over 100k on the year). Towards I began to run some 20/40 (or equivalent in GPB) stuff and in the summer of '06 I decided that AP 5/10 was harder that party-poker 20/40 and pulled the majority of my funds off the propping sites and ran PP 15/30-30/60 for a few months (there was a 3 week period or so in here where I would often 5 or 6 table these games, which was a good lesson in just how expensive common, inattentive mistakes can be).

At this point "black October" jumped in with the UIGEA and PP imploded, and in the week before the legislation became effective I spent some time datamining and surfing around the other major sites. One of the things you do a lot as a prop is wait around trying to start up empty tables, and I had always played a bit of HU here and there as a result (and had enjoyed it). When I noticed that FT had heads-up cash games I thought I would give it a go, and thought it would be interesting to see what sort of money, if any, could be made by playing these games on a regular basis. I found the HU play to be much more engaging that 6handed. By the end of the year I was running 50/100 and spending at least a half hour each day watching recordings of my own play, taking notes and doing whatever I could to break things down mathematically (I had earlier come to the conclusion that the ability to get an accurate idea of what your opponent's are doing is just something you build up through experience, so the mathematics was the important stuff to focus on). The stuff between that point and now was largely much of the same: state assumptions about opponent, find best line based off assumptions, repeat.

Quote:

what is your game you prfer the most as in stakes and amt of players?? Do you prefer one site over the other?? Who have you taken poker lessons from in the past?? Will you be coming out with a book or dvd's?? Thanks Bryce




HU LHE. I just play wherever I can get action (wiring some money into Stars shortly) though I do like the FT interface and they've always been good about processing wires. I summer '06 I asked Nate tha' Great to coach me for a bit when I was playing mid-limits, he agreed and I was extremely happy with the experience. I've actually been compiling a lot of data in the powerpoint presentations I've been doing at Stoxpoker, so producing a book at some point is not out of the question, though unlikely.

Quote:

1) Do you feel that you are approaching a place in the limit game where one could be described as virtually unexploitable?

2) I imagine you feel as though your intellectual approach to limit poker is the optimal one, however are there ways of thinking about/playing the game that you have not taken the time, or at least enough time, to explore?




1) The thing with playing with perfect balance is that you don't win any money by doing it. I do spend a lot of time figuring out the balancing points for different situations, though, just so that I understand how much I have to let my opponents get away with, when I need to key up defense etc, or so that I can engage balanced EV neutral play in areas where my opponents play extremely well.

2) That's kind of a catch 22 in that if I thought there was something very important that I was not doing I probably would be doing it. That being said, there probably is something When I was getting started with watching a lot of my own play and doing more pen and paper work I had a lot of surplus time to leverage, but these days I'm quite a bit busier with poker / stoxpoker / other projects and just the daily non-table poker stuff that I already do. You can always do more, but now I do have to be somewhat economical about how I use my time.


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The BryceModerator
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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: DeathDonkey]
      #12694159 - 10/27/07 03:42 PM

Quote:

What adjustments do you make preflop (HU) vs a tough player who is 3 betting out of the BB with a bit too wide a range (or do you think there is no such thing as too wide if you tailor your game around that style) - an 80/60 type guy who plays fairly well postflop.

There are a ton of HU pros who bounce between like 10/20 and 50/100 on Full Tilt. What are they doing wrong or what is exploitable in their play that is keeping them from HU superstardom. (if that's too broad I'm trying to categorize the player type who is clearly decent at HU, winning for the most part, but not quite able to be the next Freedom25 - what's holding them back?)

Thanks,
DeathDonkey




Well, backing down and contesting less pots isn't the right answer. It's important to remember that you can really leverage your position to bump up your implied the times you do flop a hand, and it's basically impossible for your opponent to "exploit" you by 3 betting a lot unless you roll over and die. Keep an eye open for spots where you can win pots UI post-flop start capping light as a semi-bluff if you think that's an appropriate counter.

Don't have an concrete answer to your second question, since I'm not really familiar with those players. One thing that I find is pretty common with a lot of players, however, is that their ideas of how poker works basically amount to educated guessing. You can always use mathematics to find the best possible line based off what you assume your opponent will do, so if you can't draw a straight line from your assumptions to the best possible actions you're going to want to seek out those gaps in your thinking and fill them in to make sure you have accurate data.

Quote:

Is your foray into HU NL going to have any chance of being your main game at some point, or are you going to stick with limit primarily and just make this your "project"?




It's a largely academic project at this point, but I do find it quite interesting. One thing that is interesting is that after you get over that first bit of the learning curve where you have to take things like implied odds and bet-sizing into account NL is in many ways a much simpler game than limit, since there are generally far fewer actions per hand.

Quote:

Hi The Bryce. Thanks for going into The Well.

What are the biggest BB downswings you have had at a couple limits? How did you feel about them?

Who do you think are the best limit hold 'em players in the world? HU and in longer versions of the game. Online and live.

What do you believe are the best poker books ever written? Which helped your game the most? Have you read Mathematics of Poker? If so, what did you think of it? Did it improve your game?

Do high stakes players take advantage of reload bonuses at the online sites? For example, do they bother with the Stars or FTP 125 dollar bonus every 5 months or whatever? If yes, and they don't appear to have received their bonus, do they bother e-mailing support to find out why?

You are hosting a poker game. You may pick the number of seats and the stakes. You can choose to invite absolutely any person ever living or deceased and they will accept. Who do you invite and what stakes will you play?





I know when I was propping I had a downswing of something like 700BB (note that dollar-wise it would have been a pretty marginal loss) and playing HU I don't think I've ever had a swing of more than 250BB. In the case of the first one I had a pretty depreciating attitude about it, but in the case of more recent swings swinging one way or the other is kind of low-impact psychologically. Not just because the downswings are smaller, but because at this point my mathematical fundamentals are strong enough that I can more or less see where the money is going, and am just happy to get it in good / worry about the quality of my play.

Live I can't say. Online I can't say out of everyone, but out of the people who play regularly and who I have experience with I would say either Hoss or myself for HU (note that I haven't had a chance to play against TLK). For 6max I play so seldom these days that I can't really say.

I recently bought The Mathematics of Poker, but have yet to sit down and give it some attention. In terms of other poker books the issue I have with them is that they mostly focus on teaching exploitative strategy based off certain assumptions of what people are likely to do. When the game conditions change most of the advice given in them isn't all that useful, and even though they usually do include information on under what conditions you might vary your play they don't really do a very good job of teaching the student how to understand how the game actually works. These sorts of books are still necessary material for beginner and amateur players, however, since a more mathematical approach to poker would be an extremely steep learning curve to conquer at the beginning. When reading "Theory and Practice" however, I did think that David did a much better job of focusing on fundamentals and the mechanics of the game than in any other book I'd read to date.

I just settle for rakeback.

Well, I think one of the important parts of gaming is being able to decline action, so grabbing a guy off the street and having him play 3000/6000 HU isn't really something I'd be up for, but basically I'd want a HU LHE game with huge stakes and the softest opponent possible.

Quote:

What do you charge for coaching?

If you had to start over what would your bankroll plan be?




Currently I charge $600/hr and give Stoxpoker members a $500/hr discount. Note that I am currently not accepting new students due to increasing demands on my time (no PMs, please).

At micro-limits I would probably start with ring LHE and then would switch it over to HU LHE around the 2/4 level.


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Heisenb3rg
Pooh-Bah


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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: The Bryce]
      #12696023 - 10/27/07 06:29 PM

Ive been told you like to calculate the best strategy in a lot of sitautions away from the table.

Do you find by putting in this work youve come to a lot of valuable insights that couldn't have been found any other way?

I did a calculation for an article im currently writing for the two plus two magazine. I was blown away by how long it took to do the math. The math consisted of enumerating all hand combinations for every possible turn card.. About 7 pages of work in total. The time invested didnt seem worth the result.

Is there any techinques/methods youve been using to speed up the calculation process?


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Sushiglutton
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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: The Bryce]
      #12696042 - 10/27/07 06:31 PM

Limit holdem

Suppose you defend the BB agaisnt a raise from BTN. If you miss and rags fall you need to try to steal some of the time by CR? How do you decide how often you need to do this?


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The BryceModerator
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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: Sushiglutton]
      #12697244 - 10/27/07 08:49 PM

Quote:

Ive been told you like to calculate the best strategy in a lot of sitautions away from the table.

Do you find by putting in this work youve come to a lot of valuable insights that couldn't have been found any other way?

I did a calculation for an article im currently writing for the two plus two magazine. I was blown away by how long it took to do the math. The math consisted of enumerating all hand combinations for every possible turn card.. About 7 pages of work in total. The time invested didnt seem worth the result.

Is there any techinques/methods youve been using to speed up the calculation process?




While I'm sure a lot of the stuff I've come up with isn't unique to just myself I would say I've discovered a lot of uncommon points / methods I can leverage for "solving" hands (based on what I assume my opponent is likely to do).

Sometimes the math can take a long time. One thing I've started doing a lot of, however (particularly as I fiddle more and more with HU NL) is to just input common calculations into an excel spredsheet, so that in the future I can just fill in a few fields and get the question answered in no time flat. I've also figured out a few ways to tinker with pokerstove and get it to output data types that it normally isn't used for (like weighting my opponent's range on the flop) and am currently looking at having a program written that will do a faster / more accurate job of this.

Quote:

Limit holdem

Suppose you defend the BB agaisnt a raise from BTN. If you miss and rags fall you need to try to steal some of the time by CR? How do you decide how often you need to do this?




One thing that comes up a lot in limit hold'em is that there are a lot of flops where your opponent won't have a "made" (including things like ace high) hand often enough to prevent you from showing a profit by bluffing if he just calls down. What happens, then, is that the constraint on how often you can bluff is (% make same action with "made" hand)x(opponent's price to re-bluff in relation to the pot size).

So let's say you have a 665 flop and you check-raise this with a hand that is going to showdown 30% of the time. Say on the turn your opponent's price to raise as a re-bluff is 5:2, meaning that it will need to succeed 28% (2/7) of the time to show a profit. What this basically means is that if your ratio of made hands to bluffs is 5:2 it doesn't matter whether your opponent calls or raises. If you're bluffing less he should fold, and if you're bluffing more he should raise, and if he fails to get it right it's money in your pocket. Another way to look at it is you should be bluffing the flop 9% of the time [30x(2/7)]. The more often you check-raise the flop with a made hand the more often you can bluff.

Note that all of that is about how things work in the theoretical sense, and when you're at the table it's important to tailor your play somewhat to how you expect your opponent to react, on average. It's often handy to know how these sorts of spots work, however, and to know at what point you have to start fighting back, how much "invincible" bluffing you can do, etc.


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ledfoot
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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: Sushiglutton]
      #12697343 - 10/27/07 08:57 PM

What is your opinion of how well a person who is not as apparently intellectual or mathematically proficient can succeed at HU limit? Is a person of average intellect somewhat doomed to fail?

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scorer
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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: ledfoot]
      #12697582 - 10/27/07 09:25 PM

Hey bryce, how many lessons does your avg student take from you and whats the highest your students or student plays now..again thanks

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The BryceModerator
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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: scorer]
      #12697761 - 10/27/07 09:42 PM

Quote:

What is your opinion of how well a person who is not as apparently intellectual or mathematically proficient can succeed at HU limit? Is a person of average intellect somewhat doomed to fail?




Not at all. I'm not mathematician myself, and am strictly a + - / x guy when it comes to breaking the game down mathematically (no sigmas, please). Like most things with poker being able to do that sort of stuff in a quick and easy manner is a skill that you develop by using it. If people spent half as much time and energy trying to figure out how poker worked mathematically as they did worrying about what other people thought their opponent was likely to do or how well/bad they're running they would likely be very well off for it.

Also, some people who have played a ton of poker just have a freaky sense of how often certain things happen, and can combine that with a very strong sense what people are likely to do to produce a very strong game. Taking the mathematical route, however, is often quite a bit faster and much more powerful, which more or less explains a lot of the pros running around with extremely tough games that have a smattering of very weird leaks.

Quote:

Hey bryce, how many lessons does your avg student take from you and whats the highest your students or student plays now..again thanks




When I opened up for coaching for like a month I only worked with three students, all of who played in and around the mid-limits (about 10/20 to 50/100). I usually say that for any review I want a minimum hour of footage (I use recorded footage with commentary so that I can pause it and write up my points in full rather than do a live sweat session). Usually a review on an hour of video takes about 4. I also did a little bit of work with Fatal Fog a while back, but he's mostly developed his game independently of me. Who is FF is I won't say


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NNNNOOOOONAN
It's Robert Redford ftw


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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: The Bryce]
      #12699890 - 10/28/07 02:28 AM

*grunch*

whenever i watch stox videos (which are great btw) i hear you guys talking about "having to work out the math of it" and what not, and i was just wondering what that means. like when you talk about doing stuff on excel, what exactly are you doing?

also whenever you guys say "it's close, but i think i'm going to fold" what is close? how do you figure out the right thing?

also, congrats on the awesome year LHE REPRESENT.


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The BryceModerator
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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: NNNNOOOOONAN]
      #12703906 - 10/28/07 01:33 PM

Quote:

whenever i watch stox videos (which are great btw) i hear you guys talking about "having to work out the math of it" and what not, and i was just wondering what that means. like when you talk about doing stuff on excel, what exactly are you doing?

also whenever you guys say "it's close, but i think i'm going to fold" what is close? how do you figure out the right thing?




The excel stuff is usually just having formulas written into excel so that you don't have to spend all that much time computing them yourself. When solving a hand mathematically you can always figure out what actions have what rate of return based on what you assume people will do, and can therefor find the best line (though in some situations like big multiway pots this can sometimes be a pretty big task).

A close decision is one where the expectation between two different decisions isn't drastically different.


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Hobbs.
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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: The Bryce]
      #12708036 - 10/28/07 06:53 PM

Bryce, at what limits do think a solid HU LHE player can show a profit without the rake being too oppressive? I guess it comes down to estimating expected winrate versus effective rake paid, but do you have some ballpark numbers?

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The BryceModerator
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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: Hobbs.]
      #12708322 - 10/28/07 07:12 PM

Quote:

Bryce, at what limits do think a solid HU LHE player can show a profit without the rake being too oppressive? I guess it comes down to estimating expected winrate versus effective rake paid, but do you have some ballpark numbers?




I'm not 100% sure this is the right answer to your question, but I remember that at 5/10 rake was something like 2.2BB/100 and at 10/20 it was something like 1.2BB/100. At the lower limits it exceeds 3BB/100. Where you're going to make the most money will always depend on the players at the limits and your own skill level. If you were rolled for either and 10/20 players weren't much better than 5/10 players you'd certainly want to run the higher limit, if you could beat the 5/10 players for three times as much as the 10/20 players you might want to run that instead, etc. The important thing to note is that as you move up through the lower limits, even though you may find the action gets quite a bit tougher higher up, you do get a pretty substantial rake subsidy, so you don't need to beat 10/20 as "hard" as 5/10 to show the same winrate.


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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: The Bryce]
      #12710510 - 10/28/07 09:49 PM

Bryce,

You mentioned that you need to know opponent tendencies in order to get a good grasp of the math. Did you find that getting this information cost you money in the short-run because you were playing against tough opponents?


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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: yellowjack]
      #12711434 - 10/28/07 10:55 PM

Quote:

Bryce,

You mentioned that you need to know opponent tendencies in order to get a good grasp of the math. Did you find that getting this information cost you money in the short-run because you were playing against tough opponents?




I don't usually do this but . . . Really good question!


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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: yellowjack]
      #12714638 - 10/29/07 03:46 AM

Quote:

Bryce,

You mentioned that you need to know opponent tendencies in order to get a good grasp of the math. Did you find that getting this information cost you money in the short-run because you were playing against tough opponents?




Getting a good grasp of mathematics and finding the best line based on assumptions is something completely independently of what you assume your opponents are doing, but the thing is if your assumptions are wildly inaccurate then having the best lines based on those assumptions still won't be very valuable. The opposite is true, too, wherein if you have very accurate assumptions about what your opponents are likely to do but sub-optimal lines you'll leave a lot of money on the table.

So the math does nothing to determining what people are likely to do, but if I were to go and play a game where I could often easily find the best line based on my assumptions but my assumptions about what people would do were inaccurate due to lack of experience I wouldn't be terribly proficient at that game. For example, even if my NL game were as mathematically developed as my LHE game I still wouldn't be able to play it at as high of a level due to the lack of experience.


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kickabuck
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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: The Bryce]
      #12714967 - 10/29/07 04:33 AM

Thank you for your reply to my queries. I must confess in my haste to post at having the good fortune of having your attention, I butchered the first question, rather than "virtually unexploitable", I should have written are you approaching "perfect poker". Although asking the question probably unnecessary, really I am convinced that you are, that it is in fact possible if one masters the math and excels at making correct assumptions to play 'perfect poker'.

I would like to ask just one more question, and will not abuse this 'well' privilege again, no worries . Grasping the math consumes me, to the point that it is what I think about when I wake up and keeps me awake at night. Unfortunately I am poorly educated, and although your insights on Stoxpoker have improved my game immeasurably and given me the wherewithal to conceptualize what needs to be done, I am at a loss as to how to proceed.

For example, your 'Open Source Notebook' thread on Stoxpoker was eye opening, yet I am at a loss as to how to make the necessary calculations given the assumptions you make(let's say your not checkraising a 569 flop when having defended the big blind, per your AIM conversation with Stox). I understand your thought processes, but am clueless as to how to derive the numbers. Being uneducated, would you recommend hiring a mathematician to crunch numbers/give me the proper equations to use/become adept with Excel/ etc? Or can we at Stoxpoker expect you to further expand on your applying math in some common situations given accurate assumptions? Thank you for your time Bryce, this subject is all consuming and quite frustrating for me, I feel as though I am on the cusp of great things yet clueless as to how to take that first step.


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Abbaddabba
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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: yellowjack]
      #12715811 - 10/29/07 07:17 AM

firstly (to settle an argument i had with another ap midstakes guy), what is your vpip on the button and in the big blind? clearly it varies, so let's say against an opponent who plays well preflop and mediocre postflop. just a rough figure will do.

second, have you ever negotiated a handicap for heads up matches? i have seen a few people do this; usually both sides are competent players. if you have, how do you gauge the competence of the other person or negotiate what the handicap should be set at ie: 5 bet payment for a 50 bet freezeout.


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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: Abbaddabba]
      #12717093 - 10/29/07 10:34 AM

I find that playing AA in EP (UTG or UTG+1) can be pretty tricky.

Let say in 100nl Full ring play that you have AA UTG and raise it 3xbb. It is possible to get 4 or more callers to see a flop. (No one 3 bet) Lets say that 2 of them called with lower pairs like 44 and 77 and the other two called with hands like KQo and JTs.

There is a decent chance that your AA is not the best hand after the flop, whatever it is. What do you think about this situation? Based on the texture of the flop, do you just go ahead and fire 3/4 pot? And if you get 3 bet by a late position player, do you shut down? (Depending upon your previous reads of the player)

I know you can raise 4x, 5x+ w/AA UTG, but that starts to telegraph your hand. Most observant players will definetly put you on QQ+ or AK.

At 100nl, a lot of players will call $3 to see a flop and hope to hit 2 pair +. You see LAG's doing this w/76s (basically any suited connector over 56), one gappers, two gappers, Ax, Ax(s), Kx(s))

I've laid down AA post flop before, and it's tough to do. You would think that having AA in EP is easy, but I'm sure it's a hand that a lot of people have been stacked quite a few times with it.


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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: kickabuck]
      #12720087 - 10/29/07 02:43 PM

Quote:

Thank you for your reply to my queries. I must confess in my haste to post at having the good fortune of having your attention, I butchered the first question, rather than "virtually unexploitable", I should have written are you approaching "perfect poker". Although asking the question probably unnecessary, really I am convinced that you are, that it is in fact possible if one masters the math and excels at making correct assumptions to play 'perfect poker'.

I would like to ask just one more question, and will not abuse this 'well' privilege again, no worries . Grasping the math consumes me, to the point that it is what I think about when I wake up and keeps me awake at night. Unfortunately I am poorly educated, and although your insights on Stoxpoker have improved my game immeasurably and given me the wherewithal to conceptualize what needs to be done, I am at a loss as to how to proceed.

For example, your 'Open Source Notebook' thread on Stoxpoker was eye opening, yet I am at a loss as to how to make the necessary calculations given the assumptions you make(let's say your not checkraising a 569 flop when having defended the big blind, per your AIM conversation with Stox). I understand your thought processes, but am clueless as to how to derive the numbers. Being uneducated, would you recommend hiring a mathematician to crunch numbers/give me the proper equations to use/become adept with Excel/ etc? Or can we at Stoxpoker expect you to further expand on your applying math in some common situations given accurate assumptions? Thank you for your time Bryce, this subject is all consuming and quite frustrating for me, I feel as though I am on the cusp of great things yet clueless as to how to take that first step.




Again, with the math it's just something you need to start working with and eventually it becomes much easier to handle. One thing that I would note is that if you're unsure on how to solve a question you have mathematically that might be something you'd really want to get on a message board and ask other players about, and I've been saying for a while now that this sort of discussion would be much more valuable than the ones based in the typical "what do you think my opponent has here?" angle.

Quote:

firstly (to settle an argument i had with another ap midstakes guy), what is your vpip on the button and in the big blind? clearly it varies, so let's say against an opponent who plays well preflop and mediocre postflop. just a rough figure will do.

second, have you ever negotiated a handicap for heads up matches? i have seen a few people do this; usually both sides are competent players. if you have, how do you gauge the competence of the other person or negotiate what the handicap should be set at ie: 5 bet payment for a 50 bet freezeout.




Firstly, assuming that you mean for HU, I typically run around 90-100% of my hands in the SB, and typically defend about 90% of my hands in the BB, though occasionally more.

I've never done a handicapped match, though it has come to mind. Right now there's enough indiscriminate action running around the high stakes that I don't need to offer this sort of thing to get action.

Quote:

I find that playing AA in EP (UTG or UTG+1) can be pretty tricky.

Let say in 100nl Full ring play that you have AA UTG and raise it 3xbb. It is possible to get 4 or more callers to see a flop. (No one 3 bet) Lets say that 2 of them called with lower pairs like 44 and 77 and the other two called with hands like KQo and JTs.

There is a decent chance that your AA is not the best hand after the flop, whatever it is. What do you think about this situation? Based on the texture of the flop, do you just go ahead and fire 3/4 pot? And if you get 3 bet by a late position player, do you shut down? (Depending upon your previous reads of the player)

I know you can raise 4x, 5x+ w/AA UTG, but that starts to telegraph your hand. Most observant players will definetly put you on QQ+ or AK.

At 100nl, a lot of players will call $3 to see a flop and hope to hit 2 pair +. You see LAG's doing this w/76s (basically any suited connector over 56), one gappers, two gappers, Ax, Ax(s), Kx(s))

I've laid down AA post flop before, and it's tough to do. You would think that having AA in EP is easy, but I'm sure it's a hand that a lot of people have been stacked quite a few times with it.





I do play a bit of HU NL, but ring NL is certainly not my specialty. Whether or not it's correct to lay a hand down postflop will always depend on context, but if you find that a lot of people in these games are cold-calling EP raises I think you may want to consider bumping up your EP raise size.


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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: The Bryce]
      #12725402 - 10/29/07 08:42 PM

I have to queestions regarding HU limit holdem.

1. In which situations and under what circumstances do you find donking the flop after having called the preflop raise to be a good play.

2. In which situations and under what circumstances do you find checking behind on the flop after having raised preflop from the sb to be a good play.


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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: Norrmusty]
      #12725895 - 10/29/07 09:15 PM

Quote:

I have to queestions regarding HU limit holdem.

1. In which situations and under what circumstances do you find donking the flop after having called the preflop raise to be a good play.

2. In which situations and under what circumstances do you find checking behind on the flop after having raised preflop from the sb to be a good play.




I kind of have to give the cliff notes version here, but:

1. When I have a made hand and leading is likely to induce action / to mess with my opponents. Note that in small pots in LHE bluffs have to succeed quite often and in a situation where a bluff succeeds 50% a check-raise is no more expensive than a lead, since the times your bluff fails you win an additional bet and the times your bluff fails you loose an additional bet. Even in situations where your bluff succeeds less often what often happens is people are much more likely to retaliate against a lead than a c/r, so a c/r ends up being the much more profitable play.

2. Checking behind is often only a good idea if you have a weak hand and are quite likely to induce action with a check, if you have a hand that you cannot bet for value (eg. JJ on a KQ2 flop) or if you cannot win the pot unimproved (eg. opponent is a maniac).


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dying2win
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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: The Bryce]
      #12726289 - 10/29/07 09:43 PM

yay,

my question is,

can you tell me everything you know about TexasLimitKing. he crushed the biggest limit games on ftp for a few million i think. did you ever play him? why was he so successful? did u ever talk to him outside of poker? what was so different about his style that made him such a big deal? any idea what he does now?

also - where do you see the big limit games going within the next few years? do you think they will dry up completely?

thanks


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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: dying2win]
      #12726465 - 10/29/07 09:58 PM

Quote:

yay,

my question is,

can you tell me everything you know about TexasLimitKing. he crushed the biggest limit games on ftp for a few million i think. did you ever play him? why was he so successful? did u ever talk to him outside of poker? what was so different about his style that made him such a big deal? any idea what he does now?

also - where do you see the big limit games going within the next few years? do you think they will dry up completely?

thanks




TLK's nosebleed play preceded me by about a year, so I never had any experience playing with him.

Hard to say about where high stakes LHE goes in the future. I doubt you'll ever see much 6max action at bleeder levels. Right now we have about 5-6 players playing bleeders HU a couple days a week, so it's actually a pretty healthy environment, but obviously that's a pretty volatile field. Right now David is stimulating a lot of the high stakes action in that he's encouraging a lot of other players to come out and take shots (many of which, ironically, are weaker players than David), so if he packs it in things may slow down.


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volcano1976
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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: The Bryce]
      #12734814 - 10/30/07 01:23 PM

1- Were you " Ifustigateyou " at Party ?

2- Why dont you play Hoss hu ?


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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: volcano1976]
      #12739038 - 10/30/07 06:24 PM

Quote:

1- Were you " Ifustigateyou " at Party ?

2- Why dont you play Hoss hu ?




1. No.
2. Well, I should maybe take a poke at him sometime here to get an idea of what he's like (I haven't played much against him). That being said, even if I turned out to be a small favorite I likely wouldn't play if the edge was very thin.


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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: The Bryce]
      #12749188 - 10/31/07 12:21 PM

The Bryce,

Just a comment. Your approach of asking for an hour-long video from your students with commentary and then your coaching sessions consisting of you watching that video and writing your comments down to send back to your student make me want to seriously reconsider coaching again. That sounds like a good way for someone to learn.


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piggity
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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: The Bryce]
      #12751069 - 10/31/07 02:42 PM

Hello Bryce,

One of the top Go players in the world once remarked that if there were a "perfect" (i.e., game theoretically optimal) Go player, he would estimate that he'd need a 4-stone handicap to play against him.

My question is, if you were pitted against optimal LHE opponents (either a table full of them in full ring or just one in a HU match), what would you estimate your EV to be? In other words, how far off from an optimal player do you think your current knowledge places you?

Thanks.


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Kyle
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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: piggity]
      #12756544 - 10/31/07 09:14 PM

Quote:

Hello Bryce,

One of the top Go players in the world once remarked that if there were a "perfect" (i.e., game theoretically optimal) Go player, he would estimate that he'd need a 4-stone handicap to play against him.




I was actually having a similar discussion with a friend of mine tonight.

Bryce correct me if I am wrong here but doesn't a GT optimal line yield an EV of 0? i.e it keeps you from being exploited but also keeps you from exploiting another player?

So if the above statement is correct then wouldn't +EV play always be exploitative?


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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: Kyle]
      #12759844 - 11/01/07 01:47 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Hello Bryce,

One of the top Go players in the world once remarked that if there were a "perfect" (i.e., game theoretically optimal) Go player, he would estimate that he'd need a 4-stone handicap to play against him.




I was actually having a similar discussion with a friend of mine tonight.

Bryce correct me if I am wrong here but doesn't a GT optimal line yield an EV of 0? i.e it keeps you from being exploited but also keeps you from exploiting another player?

So if the above statement is correct then wouldn't +EV play always be exploitative?




Regarding the last statement, that's correct. "Optimal play" is sometimes used as two different terms. Some people use it to describe game theory perfect play which is EV neutral (I usually refer to this as game theory optimal, or GTO play, which can be good for shutting opponents down in areas where they are strong). Usually when I use the term optimal play I mean applying the best possible line to the most accurate assumptions possible (always a tricky point to define this, since it's a non-deductive process, so it's never 100%) yielding the highest average rate of return.

Now, to answer the first question, I'm not entirely sure. I'm familiar with what balanced play looks like in a lot of areas and can shut a lot of spots down, but my understanding of many of the larger areas is far from comprehensive. The reason it's hard to give a solid answer on this is that, since all this isn't quantified yet, there's always the potential for some stuff I don't know I don't know (as opposed to stuff I know I don't know) that could throw things way out of whack.

To give you an idea, though, I'm still learning new stuff every day.


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chesterboy
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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: The Bryce]
      #12763855 - 11/01/07 11:52 AM

hmm i'm not sure i get the using game theory to shut a spot down thing.

Maybe you could for example explain how to use game theory to shut down an opponent that is 3 betting a lot preflop?


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piggity
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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: chesterboy]
      #12767131 - 11/01/07 04:02 PM

Quote:

hmm i'm not sure i get the using game theory to shut a spot down thing.

Maybe you could for example explain how to use game theory to shut down an opponent that is 3 betting a lot preflop?




Actually if someone is 3-betting more than is optimal preflop, by definition that behavior is exploitable and would not require a GT-optimal counter.

Here is an example of where I think this concept may apply, and Bryce can correct me if this is not what he's referring to. Let's say an opponent puts in a lot of action preflop and flop, and then checks to you on the turn. Now if this opponent were the type to check/fold here too much (i.e., more frequently than is optimal), then you could exploit this by bluffing more frequently. Conversely, if the opponent is the type to trap-c/r with strong hands more frequently than is optimal, then you can exploit this by checking behind more than you otherwise would. On the other hand, if the opponent balances his play perfectly here (i.e., is "tough" in these spots), your only counter is to check or bet here also with game theoretically optimal frequency, aiming for an EV of zero.


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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: piggity]
      #12776631 - 11/02/07 06:47 AM

Quote:

Quote:

hmm i'm not sure i get the using game theory to shut a spot down thing.

Maybe you could for example explain how to use game theory to shut down an opponent that is 3 betting a lot preflop?




Actually if someone is 3-betting more than is optimal preflop, by definition that behavior is exploitable and would not require a GT-optimal counter.

Here is an example of where I think this concept may apply, and Bryce can correct me if this is not what he's referring to. Let's say an opponent puts in a lot of action preflop and flop, and then checks to you on the turn. Now if this opponent were the type to check/fold here too much (i.e., more frequently than is optimal), then you could exploit this by bluffing more frequently. Conversely, if the opponent is the type to trap-c/r with strong hands more frequently than is optimal, then you can exploit this by checking behind more than you otherwise would. On the other hand, if the opponent balances his play perfectly here (i.e., is "tough" in these spots), your only counter is to check or bet here also with game theoretically optimal frequency, aiming for an EV of zero.




piggity,
how is it that you make so much sense yet only play live poker?

thebryce,
I play a lot of 10/20ish limits and the following scenario comes up a fair amount:

huhu, say you have j8s in BB and call a pfr from a tight opponent (60-70%). flop comes k62r giving you a bdfd. Your opponent c-bets. Your opponent will keep firing if you call but will tend to be fairly loose passive if you show aggression on any street. How do you proceed as a default? Does it have to be a well-mixed strategy?


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piggity
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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: vmacosta]
      #12782651 - 11/02/07 04:35 PM

Quote:


piggity,
how is it that you make so much sense yet only play live poker?





Alas, I have too many obligations IRL (job, family) to pursue poker seriously enough to be able to play online against you sharks. It's a recreational hobby for me, and I kind of like being in a casino atmosphere (and away from the computer screens which I stare at all day) when I do get to play.

I have, however, always had an interest in the game from a theoretical perspective (my background is in AI), and have studied the papers from U of Alberta, Daphne Koller, etc. for fun. I've also dabbled in bot-writing, but just to run simulations, not to put "into production."


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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: chesterboy]
      #12792973 - 11/03/07 03:03 PM

Quote:

hmm i'm not sure i get the using game theory to shut a spot down thing.

Maybe you could for example explain how to use game theory to shut down an opponent that is 3 betting a lot preflop?




This would be a good example of a situation that is too large to break down into a numbers game, so you can't really GTO it. Let's look at a different situation and say that I have a really smart opponent who is good at leveling games and I feel uncomfortable in spots where I'm just check-calling down with weak made hands. Let's say that I can't outplay my opponent here, or it would take too much energy, so I just want to GTO neutralize it. On the turn there are 3BB in these pots. If I fold the turn (this includes all times that I make it to the turn with a c-call on the flop, not just made hands) more than 25% of the time that bet shows an immediate profit, and so my opponent's price to bluff the river is 5:1, meaning that if I more or less pitch one in 6 hands the spot will be EV neutral. If I fold the turn less than 25% (it's actually less than this, since my opponent usually will have some outs, but we'll ignore that in this example) my opponent's effective price is 4:2, meaning that if I pitch around one in 3 hands the spot will be about EV neutral. I can then ignore that spot and spend that energy on other portions of the match.


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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: The Bryce]
      #12793000 - 11/03/07 03:06 PM

Quote:

thebryce,
I play a lot of 10/20ish limits and the following scenario comes up a fair amount:

huhu, say you have j8s in BB and call a pfr from a tight opponent (60-70%). flop comes k62r giving you a bdfd. Your opponent c-bets. Your opponent will keep firing if you call but will tend to be fairly loose passive if you show aggression on any street. How do you proceed as a default? Does it have to be a well-mixed strategy?




Getting 5:1 with these cards calling here doesn't show a profit just on the grounds of improving. You want to be trying to achieve something else with these sorts of peels. Maybe you think you'll get a free card from time to time, or that your opponent will give up on the pot if he missed. Maybe you want to do this every so often so that your opponent keeps barreling these flops when he misses and you flop a weak hand that wants to check-call, etc.


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chesterboy
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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: The Bryce]
      #12795735 - 11/03/07 07:01 PM

What are your thoughts on limping on the button(HU)? I find this to be useful against extremely aggressive and/or showdown bound opponents. Not every time of course, and with a fairly wide range, IE hands like 22, 57 suited or off, and occasionally a hand like qt off.

It seems to tilt the more educated players, and it doesn't seem like there can be too much harm in making a play that will have good odds preflop.

That is a bunch of rambling, but I would be very interested in your thoughts.


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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: chesterboy]
      #12797261 - 11/03/07 09:22 PM

The ironic thing about limping is this: while it's better to get 2 bets than 3 bets in with a hand like 53s pre-flop the difference between putting in 2 bets and 3 bets isn't all that large (particularly when you consider your chance to occasionally win the BB), and by limping you put yourself in a situation where your opponent may often raise an even wider range of hands and win a larger number of pots unimproved.

Also, if you only limp weak hands a good player can rape you postflop, as you've really defined your range, and if you start limping good hands as well then you're giving up way too much.

The only time I limp is when my opponent has only a couple bets left in his stack or if he's batshit psycho and I can never ever win pots UI.


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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: yellowjack]
      #12812993 - 11/05/07 12:12 AM

Quote:

Did you tilt vs. schnibl0r when you played him a few days ago?

In the Classroom 108 you give us a brief glimpse into solving hands w/ PokerStove). How many different cases did you do before you had a general sense of how to approach each flop given your holding? Also, are you going to continue this particular aspect of the classroom? It seems vital in improving one's game.





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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: joker122]
      #12814110 - 11/05/07 02:11 AM

I missed that entire post.

Quote:

Did you tilt vs. schnibl0r when you played him a few days ago?




That match was pretty intense. I hadn't played much with Simon previously and he ran extremely well in the first few hours of our match while I was trying to get a feel for what his bluff / made hand distribution was when he was check-raising flops, and eventually it got to the point where he would have had to be aware that I was taking some cracks at him when he raised, so when he kept showing up with answers every single time I pushed a couple hands even harder. Simon later had an interview wherein he discussed a few hands where I ran a big bluff into a made hand and turned it into a tirade.

Quote:

In the Classroom 108 you give us a brief glimpse into solving hands w/ PokerStove). How many different cases did you do before you had a general sense of how to approach each flop given your holding? Also, are you going to continue this particular aspect of the classroom? It seems vital in improving one's game.




Once I get done with the LHE blinds series and the reverse coaching HU LHE series I'll be moving onto some stuff that will have a more mathematical lean. As far as how to use pokerstove to weight ranges, what was in that video was all there was to it. Examples of how to apply it will continue to come up throughout different classroom videos, though I may dedicate a video specifically to providing some examples, since this is not the first time this request has come up.

Quote:

Imagine you are in a game where your opponent is raising at every opportunity preflop, bet/calling every flop, calling or raising the turn, and folding the river 60% he does not have the betting lead, calling 25% of the time with a pair, and bluff-raising 15% of the time. How does this affect your PF hand range, and what postflop look like?




Up until your turn/river description this is fairly standard fair for HU LHE play, so pre-flop doesn't change much. Your scenario engenders a lot of river bluffing.
Quote:


What factors into finding:
1) optimal re-bluffing % on a dry board (e.g. J44r)
2) whether or not to free SD on the turn




1) If you mean game theory optimal bluffing the short description is: opponents cost to re-bluff you : pot size = GTO bluff%.
2) This is a pretty large topic, but generally raising for a FSD is only an effective sort of play when either a) it has some semi-bluff value or b) your opponent is both very unlikely to barrel with a draw and very likely to have one. Raising for showdown also can have some interesting applications in multi-way pots where either a) the pot is larger, and there's maybe some value in protecting your hand (in small pots it hardly factors) or b) you can knock out some players behind you who may have better hands (often big value).
Quote:


How many hands did it take for you see your edge vs. a player in your:
1) 5/10 to 30/60 days
2) 50/100 to 200/400 days
3) current games




One of the things I'm very glad I took a lot of time to do over a year back was I put a lot of energy into thinking about how poker "should" be learned, and what would be the most effective way to break it down. The first 15 months or so I spent a lot of time worrying about stuff that didn't matter and asking questions that would never prompt particularly useful answers. The last 12 months or so has been a lot of work, in the sense of all the away-from-table stuff I've been doing, but I've been cooking with gas. While it's certainly been extremely challenging at points I basically ratcheted up through 30/60 to bleeders in time with the growth of my bankroll (which I've been pretty conservative with).


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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: The Bryce]
      #12820728 - 11/05/07 04:10 PM

Dunno if this well is still alive, but could you say a bit on what range you should raise with vs the one that you just check behind in HU LHE, when playing with a SB that completes a lot ?

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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: Gelford]
      #12863394 - 11/08/07 10:45 AM

Quote:

Dunno if this well is still alive, but could you say a bit on what range you should raise with vs the one that you just check behind in HU LHE, when playing with a SB that completes a lot ?




Playing against a limper is actually a very large and somewhat complex subject. Some basic advice: the more likely the limper is to play fit or fold post-flop the larger a range you should raise (technically, against a guy who plays true fit or fold with a weak range you could raise any two here, but if you feel like you can't just raise any two indefinitely you may as well lean towards somewhat stronger holdings). When players become more resilient post-flop or start to limper a stronger range of hands you're less inclined to raise. Against players who continuation bet 100% after limping you're also less inclined to raise, since you can then just check-raise flops that you want to try and win UI (getting the same amount of money in the pot that you would by raising and betting). Against intelligent players who do bet the flop a lot after limping you may find it a good idea to mix things up and do a bit of both so that it's harder for them to get a lot of information on how aggressive you're actually being.


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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: The Bryce]
      #12869742 - 11/08/07 06:16 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Dunno if this well is still alive, but could you say a bit on what range you should raise with vs the one that you just check behind in HU LHE, when playing with a SB that completes a lot ?




Playing against a limper is actually a very large and somewhat complex subject. Some basic advice: the more likely the limper is to play fit or fold post-flop the larger a range you should raise (technically, against a guy who plays true fit or fold with a weak range you could raise any two here, but if you feel like you can't just raise any two indefinitely you may as well lean towards somewhat stronger holdings). When players become more resilient post-flop or start to limper a stronger range of hands you're less inclined to raise. Against players who continuation bet 100% after limping you're also less inclined to raise, since you can then just check-raise flops that you want to try and win UI (getting the same amount of money in the pot that you would by raising and betting). Against intelligent players who do bet the flop a lot after limping you may find it a good idea to mix things up and do a bit of both so that it's harder for them to get a lot of information on how aggressive you're actually being.





Thx Bryce


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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: The Bryce]
      #12881124 - 11/09/07 01:39 PM

Bryce,

I play on a site that I (and other players) suspect has a lot of heads up bots at the 30/60 - 50/100 limits. I've been having conversations with about 3 other players at the site, and we're trying to develop an optimum counter strategy to the bots.

Their playing style seems pretty exploitable to me (generally wildly agro pf, and loose passive/showdown bound postflop), and we've been doing fairly well against the bots, but I'm still surprised at how tough the bots seem to be. They bluff with a frequency that makes them tough and they do mix up their play a fair amount. I still find playing most human opponents (not regular winners) much easier than these bots.

I'm used to playing off my human's opponent's emotional state. When I first started playing the bots (before I knew they were bots) I would get extremely tilted because of their unconventional style and also, strangely, their complete LACK of tilt (which is almost always present when playing a human).

Do you have much experience playing vs. someone you know is a bot? What do you know about the world of hu limit botting? Do you feel equally comfortable playing vs. a bot (that is exploitable) as you do vs. a human player?


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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: geormiet]
      #12882149 - 11/09/07 02:51 PM

I played against most of the FT bots back when they were around. For the 30/60 level or so they were fairly tough, but I was generally pretty happy to get their action. In retrospect you would need a fairly decent understanding of HU fundamentals to beat the bots, but their game was far from complete.

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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: The Bryce]
      #12927214 - 11/12/07 06:43 PM

In a recent blog, Mike Schneider mentions that Hoss is "as good as anyone" at using momentum in a 2-3 handed game. I thought Hoss' actions were primarily dictated by game theory and therefore his actions on a particular hand would not change if it came up during a bad run or bad run of cards.

Thoughts on who is right?


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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: yellowjack]
      #12927565 - 11/12/07 07:06 PM

Hello Bryce!

Im going to make a full-time limit plan for 2008. This far of my career (2.5 years) I have been mostly spending my time at the tables. Under the coming year I feel like I may work more with the teoretical stuff aswell to improve. What do you think is a good % mix between playing and studying for a serious players such as myself.
Im thinking something along the lines of planning:
playing
get a good pokercoach
using traingvideos
messeageboards such as 2p2
reading books
other ways to improve?

I looked at your video at stox were you showed some of your play from 2005. it was very nice to see what an enormous progress you have made in only two years time. Whats the most important thing u think u did under that time to acchive such a sucsess? Was it working day and night, having a special talent or finding some special stuff that allowed u to get that much better. My goal is to improve as much as possible under 2008 and are now planning in what areas I should focus the most effort in to get the best progress. Currently Im mainly playing 5/10 and some 10/20.


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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: Kvacke]
      #12949539 - 11/14/07 12:56 AM

If your play is at a more intermediate level you might consider putting things like message board discussion and books on the backburner. One self-improvement tool that you may find very handy would be to record and watch something like 10 minutes of your play daily. You'll find a lot of mistakes or potential mistakes you wouldn't have otherwise and will get some better perspective on where your game is at.

How much work you do away from the table depends on personal taste more than anything, but it's important that you do spend some time building tools and skillsets that are going to help you build your game in a quick and effective manner, be that video review, mathematical analysis, etc.


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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: The Bryce]
      #12950226 - 11/14/07 01:53 AM

Hey Bryce thanks for jumping in the well. Just a quick question. What software do you use to record your play?

Cheers.


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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: Idiotex]
      #12951222 - 11/14/07 03:55 AM

Camtasia.

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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: The Bryce]
      #12952951 - 11/14/07 09:03 AM

wrong thread for this type of post.

Edited by stoxtrader (11/14/07 10:39 AM)


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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: Orlando Salazar]
      #12957131 - 11/14/07 02:33 PM

Now I'm curious.

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notreallymyname
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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: The Bryce]
      #12958804 - 11/14/07 04:25 PM

You wrote earlier in this thread that "GTO" play only achieves neutral EV and isn't a winning strategy, but isn't that restricted to certain simple games such as river bluff (catching) decisions? Complete HU LHE GTO play (not that this is a solved game yet) should have a positive EV against any other strategy unless I've completely misunderstood game theory.

Assuming that that is so, an actual question: do you think that such a "perfect" but not specifically exploitive player would beat a normal rake? Against tough players, such as yourself?


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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: notreallymyname]
      #12958906 - 11/14/07 04:32 PM

Well, the rake does not really factor into higher-stakes play. It's much easier to see how GTO play leads to neutral results in single-street decisions, but the same is true for multi-street decisions, albeit the amount of information that becomes involved there becomes enormous and any sort of "balanced" play you generally see attempting to approach something like that is generally fairly hack and slash and only applies in some limited context.

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notreallymyname
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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: The Bryce]
      #12959470 - 11/14/07 05:05 PM

GTO play from both players certainly does (in symmetric games), but non-optimal strategies perform worse than optimal ones against optimal strategies (in fact this isn't a million miles from the definition of optimal play in the game theory sense) in many toy games so it'd be very surprising to find that this isn't the case for poker too.

Edited by notreallymyname (11/14/07 05:06 PM)


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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: notreallymyname]
      #12961828 - 11/14/07 07:39 PM

Actually, you're correct on that point, I apologize about that. An easy example would be to say that player A plays a GTO game where all his frequencies are perfectly balanced for the highest possible rate of return based on the hypothetical assumption that his opponents will always make the best possible action themselves. If he plays against player B, who is a tough but non-GTO player then player B cannot win money but can still lose some money. If he plays against player C, who will fold every single hand, he will win more money than if playing against player B. Interesting point.

Also, since this always comes up: note that while player B cannot beat player A he can show a larger edge over other opponents who do not play like player A. What you often see as a result of this in higher-stakes bleeder games is that there is usually a long feeling-out period wherein many players may play very conservatively and closer to a player A style until they have a lot of data about their opponent's actions / frequencies and can assume with a high degree of confidence that their opponent will do something with a high degree of probability, at which point they may begin to shift more towards a "player B: style. Note that in some areas, like folding on the river, many players may elect to take a more conservative and proactive "player A" style with the knowledge that once they attempt to take a more exploitative "player B" style (folding with above GTO frequency to bets or raises in "tough" spots) tough opponents at these limits may become exploitative themselves in this area and begin to bluff more.

Many players do tend to "cheat" in some of these spots as well, meaning that they still do make many "hopeless" calls in these spots but, often because they assume that their opponent is not that tough or that dynamic, still do fold more than the GTO frequency. Some players do stuff like this at a subconscious or intuitive level, others do it at a mathematical level.


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sl4v3
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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: The Bryce]
      #13025660 - 11/19/07 05:18 AM

Quote:

So let's say you have a 665 flop and you check-raise this with a hand that is going to showdown 30% of the time.




What do you mean by "going to showdown 30%"? Do you mean our pot equity is 30%? If not, how do we come up with this number? Thanks.


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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: sl4v3]
      #13029273 - 11/19/07 01:09 PM

What I mean is that 30% of the time you see that flop you check-raise with a hand that is going to showdown if your opponent raises back at some point, be it trips, ace high, etc.

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Gelford
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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: The Bryce]
      #13031685 - 11/19/07 04:01 PM

Bryce ... awesome vids btw, feel free to do some more NL stuff, even if you feel you're not there yet. It's great to see the processes as you learn. (and I'm guessing you're still heads and shoulders above most)

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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: Gelford]
      #13032863 - 11/19/07 05:10 PM

Not sure how much you'd appreciate this question, but what kind of winrate is normal for a good player at the bleeders in HU LHE?... are we talking 0.5/100 here or less?

Anyways, awesome thread.


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sl4v3
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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: The Bryce]
      #13033318 - 11/19/07 05:36 PM

Quote:

What I mean is that 30% of the time you see that flop you check-raise with a hand that is going to showdown if your opponent raises back at some point, be it trips, ace high, etc.




Is there a logical or mathematical way to arrive at this 30% number? Or is it more based on experience and mostly subjective?


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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: sl4v3]
      #13035239 - 11/19/07 07:42 PM

No, that number is just there as an example, it's not based off anything. Also for the winrate question: my winrate is about to become "declassified" soon, so you'll see then, but 0.5BB/100 would be extremely low. Winrates in HU play are typically much higher than 6 max play, partially because you actually play more hands per hundred and also because with the wide hand ranges there are far less trivial decisions to be made.

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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: The Bryce]
      #13035582 - 11/19/07 08:09 PM

makes perfect sense, ty

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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: The Bryce]
      #13049665 - 11/20/07 06:17 PM

Quote:

No, that number is just there as an example, it's not based off anything. Also for the winrate question: my winrate is about to become "declassified" soon , so you'll see then, but 0.5BB/100 would be extremely low. Winrates in HU play are typically much higher than 6 max play, partially because you actually play more hands per hundred and also because with the wide hand ranges there are far less trivial decisions to be made.




can you elaborate on what you mean?


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Yeti
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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: jzpiano]
      #13087808 - 11/23/07 06:39 PM

what is your accent? haha, i cant pinpoint it

just watched your 200/400 hu vid, first i've ever watched of yours. very very awesome, i think the speed you talk is a definite plus. best vid i've seen.


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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: Yeti]
      #13090314 - 11/23/07 10:14 PM

Quote:

what is your accent? haha, i cant pinpoint it

just watched your 200/400 hu vid, first i've ever watched of yours. very very awesome, i think the speed you talk is a definite plus. best vid i've seen.




It would have to be a Canadian accent, if there is such a thing.


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Yeti
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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: The Bryce]
      #13090691 - 11/23/07 10:50 PM

oh. you must just be really posh then

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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: The Bryce]
      #13095180 - 11/24/07 10:28 AM

"Simon later had an interview wherein he discussed a few hands where I ran a big bluff into a made hand and turned it into a tirade. "

do you have a link for this?


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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: Yeti]
      #13107066 - 11/25/07 10:22 AM

Quote:

what is your accent? haha, i cant pinpoint it

just watched your 200/400 hu vid, first i've ever watched of yours. very very awesome, i think the speed you talk is a definite plus. best vid i've seen.




I was going to guess something obscure like his original language was French and was taught English by someone with an Irish accent.

Edited by Dmunnee (11/25/07 10:23 AM)


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startrak
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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: joker122]
      #13107258 - 11/25/07 10:57 AM

what do you think an NL player can gain/learn from playing limit (either 6max or HU)? Given that there are things to gain/learn (eg, you will get better at NL from playing limit) would you recommend playing or watching limit videos?

edit: I will likely be -EV playing, because I will have to play someone on ~ the same skillevel ("poker in general" wise). And playing players I will win $ from, having just about no limit experience, will be worthless.

Hope this makes sense. I have almost never played limit, but think it could be fun and would be more willing to play if you think it would help my NL game, in any area basically.

Edited by startrak (11/25/07 11:08 AM)


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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: Dmunnee]
      #13108951 - 11/25/07 02:13 PM

Quote:

"Simon later had an interview wherein he discussed a few hands where I ran a big bluff into a made hand and turned it into a tirade. "

do you have a link for this?




http://www.pokerstrategy.com/news/world-of-poker/One-Stack-High-Society_01797

Quote:

Quote:

what is your accent? haha, i cant pinpoint it

just watched your 200/400 hu vid, first i've ever watched of yours. very very awesome, i think the speed you talk is a definite plus. best vid i've seen.




I was going to guess something obscure like his original language was French and was taught English by someone with an Irish accent.




Well my grandparents on my father's side were French and on my mother's side were Irish. Neither speak with an accent, but that's kind of creepy

Quote:

what do you think an NL player can gain/learn from playing limit (either 6max or HU)? Given that there are things to gain/learn (eg, you will get better at NL from playing limit) would you recommend playing or watching limit videos?

edit: I will likely be -EV playing, because I will have to play someone on ~ the same skillevel ("poker in general" wise). And playing players I will win $ from, having just about no limit experience, will be worthless.

Hope this makes sense. I have almost never played limit, but think it could be fun and would be more willing to play if you think it would help my NL game, in any area basically.




Ultimately poker is just poker, but different forms of poker do stress different skill sets I suppose. Playing something like HU LHE would be great for developing basic instincts about when players attack / turtle etc. since it's a very information saturated environment where there's a ton of information exchange. I'm not sure if this would be more helpful than playing HU NL, though (where less information is exchanged but you're actually playing in a NL context).

Ultimately I do think that, yes, playing limit would help your no-limit game, but if your goal is simply to be better at no-limit I think the most time efficient thing to do would be to just play more no-limit and spend some time and energy thinking about what sorts of tools you're going to use to build / improve your game (so many people spend so much time playing and so little time thinking about how they're going to go about actually improving their play).


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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: The Bryce]
      #13110476 - 11/25/07 04:16 PM

Bryce what's your education level/academic background like? You're obviously a very intelligent individual, and I was just curious as to what your pre-poker background is like.


Also, what part of Canada are you from and do you ever play live/or in tourneys?


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The BryceModerator
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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: bigshowmack]
      #13110884 - 11/25/07 04:48 PM

My formal education consists of high school + a smattering of morning classes I've taken at the local U. Edmonton, AB. I don't think I've even been in a casino in the last 18 months or so.

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mendacity
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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: The Bryce]
      #13113901 - 11/25/07 08:20 PM

What video recording software do you use?

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TheCutter
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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: mendacity]
      #13120459 - 11/26/07 09:31 AM

Camtasia

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gregorio
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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: The Bryce]
      #13120875 - 11/26/07 10:23 AM

Quote:

Quote:

"Simon later had an interview wherein he discussed a few hands where I ran a big bluff into a made hand and turned it into a tirade. "

do you have a link for this?




http://www.pokerstrategy.com/news/world-of-poker/One-Stack-High-Society_01797





He sounds like a great guy.

Schnibl0r had to accept some serious losses against The Bryce aka Freedom 25, who he had previously pretty much beaten. "There was nothing more I could do", says Schnibl0r, „he was tilting and whined the whole time he was in the chat, and then suddenly he started hitting cards. It was incredible. You just couldn't do anything about it".

Schnibl0r: Well, I might sound a bit arrogant and unbelievable since I am a bit down, although in heads-up I am still up overall. I think I am at least as good as FatalFog, Sassi and Hoss. David Benyamine, TheBryce and Patrik Antonius are a bit beneath me.


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DavidC
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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: The Bryce]
      #13122178 - 11/26/07 12:16 PM

why did you choose videos of yourself playing instead of just reviewing your sessions in poker tracker, as a learning tool?

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dallas14
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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: DavidC]
      #13125127 - 11/26/07 03:52 PM

what names do you play under?

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deluz35
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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: The Bryce]
      #13128901 - 11/26/07 07:58 PM

Bryce, thank you for sharing your thoughts on poker. Even though I only play NL, I found your thought process and approach to getting better helpful. I will probably go ahead and sign up for stoxpoker because of this thread.

Also, did you prefer FL to NL because there is more "information exchange?"


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nickabourisk
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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: The Bryce]
      #13133385 - 11/27/07 01:33 AM

Hey Bryce, I've been a member (lurker) on StoxPoker for several months now and your videos are my favourite by far. I also love your video blogs.

Quote:

My formal education consists of high school + a smattering of morning classes I've taken at the local U. Edmonton, AB. I don't think I've even been in a casino in the last 18 months or so.




You are from Edmonton (originally)? I thought I heard you say somewhere that you were living in BC, is that where you are now? It's interesting because I'm living in Edmonton right now (I just got married at the end of the summer and my wife and I drove across Canada from Prince Edward Island, I believe we were in Niagara Falls less than a week before you were there). I came here to do my Master's in CS at UofA to study poker bots (they use them strictly for academic purposes and not online). They've recently solved an abstraction of HU LHE (simplified but very similar) with 10^12 states in the game tree while the full-scale HU LHE game tree has 10^18 states.

Have you heard of their bots and/or played against them? What are your thoughts on this research? Are you for it, against it, or neither?


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vmacosta
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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: The Bryce]
      #13143345 - 11/27/07 06:37 PM

Bryce,
Can you please comment on which software tools you use to analyze hands? Did you write your own software or have somebody write stuff for you?

How long does it take you to "solve" a simple hand like: you have A3o in BB and call a good, agro 80-90% sb/bt opener and flop comes KQ8r.

ps- if you wouldn't mind sharing the solution...


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The BryceModerator
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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: vmacosta]
      #13164121 - 11/28/07 11:26 PM

Quote:

why did you choose videos of yourself playing instead of just reviewing your sessions in poker tracker, as a learning tool?




The audio commentary was often important to get a perspective on my thought processes, particularly with 6 max play which I couldn't do a linear review on in PT.

Quote:

Also, did you prefer FL to NL because there is more "information exchange?"




The biggest reason I ended up playing LHE over NL is that LHE is just what I started with. To be honest, I'm not that big a fan of 6-max LHE, but am even less of a fan of 6-max NL (3-4 handed for either is fine).

Quote:

Have you heard of their bots and/or played against them? What are your thoughts on this research? Are you for it, against it, or neither?




I'm aware of the research and have chatted with a guy from Poker Academy a bit. Poker research like this for academic purposes is great, of course (from an academic standpoint).

Quote:

Bryce,
Can you please comment on which software tools you use to analyze hands? Did you write your own software or have somebody write stuff for you?

How long does it take you to "solve" a simple hand like: you have A3o in BB and call a good, agro 80-90% sb/bt opener and flop comes KQ8r.




Mostly a calculator One thing I do a lot, though, is I use pokerstove to figure out how my opponent's range is weighted on a street and start from there. You can use the program to do things like find out how often your opponent has middle pair or better, for example, but you have to mess around with it a little. I'm currently working on a piece of software that will do a much better job of this.

Also, regarding the example, you're going to have to ask a way simpler question that that if you expect to get an answer For example, I could tell you what the optimal distribution of betting and giving up to betting and re-raising as a re-bluff would be, but there are a million directions a hand can head in (and they compound) so you really do have to just take it in small bites.


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scorer
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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: The Bryce]
      #13167008 - 11/29/07 03:49 AM

hey bryce, why do you prefer 3-4 hande over 6max...thanks

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vmacosta
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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: The Bryce]
      #13167341 - 11/29/07 04:47 AM

Quote:

Also, regarding the example, you're going to have to ask a way simpler question that that if you expect to get an answer For example, I could tell you what the optimal distribution of betting and giving up to betting and re-raising as a re-bluff would be, but there are a million directions a hand can head in (and they compound) so you really do have to just take it in small bites.




yeah, exactly my problem. So how do you approach this flop then? do you assume a flop action (cc seems reasonable) and solve for different turn+river combos? Obviously opponents' strategies are fluid IRL, but do you use a generic static strategy and try to find optimal line vs. that strat?

I ask because lately I've been working on this stuff a lot and it seems like it takes 10 man-hours just to code up the strategies and run a simulation whose results are just "meh". And that's when I have the hero c/c'ing the flop. If I wanna throw in different flop actions (like 30% c/r or something) the coding blows up to the point where I wanna just call it quits.

hehe, sorry for ranting in your thread--it really has been an excellent well and we are all lucky that you decided to return to it weeks after it was supposed to end.


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Trix
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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: The Bryce]
      #13168985 - 11/29/07 10:06 AM

What was your party screennames before oktober last year ?

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DavidC
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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: DavidC]
      #13170273 - 11/29/07 12:08 PM

Hey man, I'm so glad this thread hasn't died yet. Thanks.

Um, and this is probably going to be my most useless question yet, but I appreciate weird knowledge, so I'm curious about this... anyways.

1) AA and KK, in a headsup match... do they make more or less than at a full ring table? I'm not sure, because your one opponent will give more action HU, but you don't have as many people to give you action as you would at a FR table, and also you'll get action from people with less outs HU than FR... anyways, curious.

2) Also: is EV AA / EV KK smaller at HU than FR? I'd assume so, since less people around to have Ax type hands and pairs win more HU.

Sorta silly questions, but I was thinking about it last night.

Thanks.


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The BryceModerator
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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: DavidC]
      #13177580 - 11/29/07 08:44 PM

Quote:

hey bryce, why do you prefer 3-4 hande over 6max...thanks




More action, more interaction, and because the hand ranges that you're dealing with are typically wider there are less trivial decisions.

Quote:

yeah, exactly my problem. So how do you approach this flop then? do you assume a flop action (cc seems reasonable) and solve for different turn+river combos? Obviously opponents' strategies are fluid IRL, but do you use a generic static strategy and try to find optimal line vs. that strat




Well there are two ways to look at poker questions. Firstly, you can approach them from an exploitative angle, meaning that you're going to try and find the line with the highest rate of return based on what you think your opponent is likely to do, which is generally pretty straightforward.

The other thing you can look at is an optimal solution, meaning that you take a particular question and find the line that would have the highest possible rate of return if your opponent played perfectly against your range (note: not your actual cards). Note that an "optimal" line will always have a lower rate of return than an exploitative line, so the term is a bit misleading. If you're wanting to get started with mathematical stuff you'll almost certainly start off in the exploitative area, and once you get pretty fluent with that "optimal" questions may start popping up out of curiosity. Finding optimal lines is not only extremely helpful in helping you understand the game and see where the money is actually going but also really helps you understand what the rates of return are like on manipulating your opponent's frequencies in information saturated environments, which can give you a killer edge.

Quote:

What was your party screennames before oktober last year ?




Freedom25 and then no_hitlers when I switched the a new affiliate (the name is tasteless, but came from an inside joke). I only played on Party for around 2-3 months.

Quote:

1) AA and KK, in a headsup match... do they make more or less than at a full ring table?




Of course. The average pot in a HU game is something like 4.5BB, whereas the average pot in a ring game is way larger. You'll win a ton of pots with AA and KK HU, but your average rate of return will be lower than in a ring game. I think this answers both your questions.


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Tryptamean
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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: The Bryce]
      #13190875 - 11/30/07 05:47 PM

Quote:

You can use the program to do things like find out how often your opponent has middle pair or better, for example, but you have to mess around with it a little. I'm currently working on a piece of software that will do a much better job of this.



when do you expect this to be completed? It sounds very interesting. I remember your video about how to calculate these things, but it did not sink in immediately and I got tired of pausing and rewinding the video to figure it out. Do you have any articles or forum posts that explain that process?


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The BryceModerator
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Re: Bryce is "In the Well" [Re: Tryptamean]
      #13192260 - 11/30/07 07:14 PM

I did provide some quizzes to help people figure the process out, search the forums under "B100" if you're a premium subscriber.

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