Onaflag
veteran
Reged: 10/21/04
Posts: 1340
Loc: Space for Rent
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How does video coaching compare to hiring a personal coach? If there are more benefits to hiring one, is it possible to incorporate those benefits into training videos?
I've been a Cardrunners member for a while and it has helped my game. I'll more than likely become a Stoxpoker member as well. Last year I was a PXF member and after a year still couldn't move up too far in limits and didn't do much better than break even over a billion SNGs. So off to NL I went.
I'm "getting" it and am determined to continue to improve but can't help but wonder what I'm missing out on just watching videos of pros playing. I'm sure there are others like me who can't bone up huge fees for a personal trainer hence the large customer base for video sites.
Can you or will you or do you have plans to do other things besides just recording pros playing that might benefit us low limit, barely better than break even players?
That's a question for all training sites, I guess.
Onaflag.........
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StoxPoker
member
Reged: 09/19/07
Posts: 120
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We have a class room series of videos as well and they are not the typical "pro's playing" approach.
But in a more specific answer to your question:
1. If your hire a personal coach that isn't qualified you can hurt your game and cost youself a lot of money. There are a lot of qualified personal coaches. But there are many more who think they are qualified but are not.
2. It is obviously much more expensive to hire a top level personal coach. Hour-For-Hour you should certainly benefit more by one-on-one coaching. However, a top video coaching site has 100's of hours of coaching videos. You would never get that much information from a few hours of personal coaching.
Edited by StoxPoker (10/09/07 08:04 PM)
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Kyle
old hand
Reged: 10/05/04
Posts: 1047
Loc: Down South
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Onaflag,
If money was not an issue I would recommend one on one coaching. No video is going to be able to help your game like one on one coaching can. A coach can analyze your game and say you are doing this, this and this wrong. You will obviously never get this from a video.
With that said a good coach will cost you at the minimum 100/hr with most being much more. So my recommendation is to do both. Hire a coach for a few hours to go over your game and point out leaks. Play for several months and then if you can hire him again. In the meantime keep on watching videos and working on your game.
I am a coach at stoxpoker and I would not be where I am at today if I would not have hired stoxtrader to coach me. He helped me get over the mid limit hump. But most importantly he taught me how to improve. From there on I was able to teach myself no limit and become a a very high level player.
Cottonseed
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ttgirl
enthusiast
Reged: 08/28/07
Posts: 244
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i personally think a personal "coach" can help your game more than a video coaching site. However, i dont think paying someone 100$ / hour to sweat you is the right idea. try and find someone better than you through these forums or through stox or cr and discuss hands with them, have them sweat you, sweat them, and go over videos together. discuss basic strategies for preflop and postflop. if they play at your site and your limits all the better on sharing reads between people. This kind of coaching will help you infinitely more than meeting with a disinterested person who is coaching you solely for the money once a week.
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Taylor Caby
old hand
Reged: 03/14/06
Posts: 725
Loc: Chicago, IL, blogging
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The problem with 1 on 1 coaching is people expect it to be a quick fix. They rationalize "i'm paying good money for this, this guy is helping me one on one, this will make me a good player." You need to actively try to improve your game on your own, not just listen to someone telling you what to do.
This is why the training sites are better for the novice to intermediate player. You can get top quality instruction very affordably, and you are forced to actually think about what is going on, rather than just being told what you are doing wrong (rather, you are watching someone else play and explain, but it isn't jsut someone telling you yourself what your mistakes are). After watching tens to hundreds of videos and studying your own game, you should start to get a general idea of leaks in your game and see some results.
Let's say you are a winner at 2-4nl or 3-6nl and want to move up -- this moight be a good time to get coaching. However, I suspect most of the people asking questions on this forum aren't in this situation.
Also, one other thing for coaching. Please be very careful who you get lessons from. The training sites in this forum are all reputable companies that hire very good poker players with proven results (if you don't see proven results, ask). They have a lot to lose by hiring instructors who can't win. A lot of the private coaches may not have the same results or a reputation to protect, so you can get burned. I've heard of many many instances where people have gotten burned, even "coaches" who have gone broke, and took up coaching to get money.
BTW, there are lots of good coaches out there too. I recommend checking out www.3-bet.net for good coaches. I don't know much about other poker coaching sites but they have a very good one.
tc
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Boise123
enthusiast
Reged: 04/13/07
Posts: 382
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If money is not an issue I don't think there is any question that a good live coach is better.
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SGspecial
Doctor Razz
Reged: 08/09/06
Posts: 1209
Loc: Doctor Razz
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Quote:
If money is not an issue I don't think there is any question that a good live coach is better.
This is poker... money is always an issue.
This may be a bit technical for some, but the difference as I see it is that training videos are a feed forward process and personal coaching is a feedback one. All that means is that with training videos the coach has to explain the kind of information and strategies that will benefit most players in most situations. If your game is way off or you're a beginner then this kind of training will help you move forward the quickest. Personal coaching allows you to hear from an expert what you are doing right and wrong, and how to improve your own self-analysis as well as your game. If you're in a situation where you just need fine tuning, are looking to move up in limits, or are looking to master a new game then taking a step back with a personal coach is probably the way to go.
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xSCWx
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 10/07/06
Posts: 1776
Loc: Texas A&M / Teaching HU SNGs
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Quote:
This may be a bit technical for some, but the difference as I see it is that training videos are a feed forward process and personal coaching is a feedback one.
This hit the nail on the head. By watching videos you will notice some hands where a different approach is more profitable, or at least another way to mix up your game.
A personal coach can not only help you with individual hands, but your strategies for metagame as a whole. If you play .05/.10 and you are basing your play on a 10/20 video you are probably not playing optimally. A major factor in poker is reacting to your opponents, and the level of thinking between the game limits can be completely different. Although there are certainly many improvements to your game that you can find in videos, a personal coach is much more thorough and efficient in helping to improve.
PS: If this sounds like it is bashing videos it was not intended. I am a Cardrunners member and have only watched a few videos, but the minor improvements I have made to my game have EASILY paid off the cost of the site. The videos are much more cost efficient (countless hours of "training" for what may be only 1 hour of a personal coach), but the personal coach is much more time efficient. If you are hitting a block in improving your game I would strongly consider getting both types.
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saal13
newbie
Reged: 04/24/06
Posts: 25
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Onaflag,
I'm a member at Cardrunners, Stoxpoker and Pokerzion. I believe that both Cardrunners and Stoxpoker are excellent resources (and great value) but would go with Pokerzion if I had to choose one site because Pokerzion includes 1-hour of one-on-one coaching with a professional player each month. It costs more, $69 a month, but the one-on-one coaching really helped me out when I first started.
Scott
Edited by saal13 (10/11/07 01:20 AM)
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FreakDaddy
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 01/10/05
Posts: 2719
Loc: Contemplating the realities
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In a nutshell, there's really no comparison.
You can read all the books, and watch all the videos, but until you have someone that can personally work with YOU based on your personal strengths and weaknesses, you likely won't achieve the results you really desire. That's not to say you won't learn from those tools, because you of course will.
Also something to consider when hiring a coach, because there are a lot of bad coaches out there, is do they have a developed learning model? I'd say that over 95% do not. You will of course learn something from those who don't, but how much value you'll get out of the money you invest to hire a coach will be much much higher with one that has a plan.
Just a basic example... Anyone who has ever played an instrument, and has hired a music instructor should appreciate that. There are a lot of good guitar players (or drummer or whatever), but that doesn't make you a good teacher (or coach for that matter).
GL.
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Gonso
Instant Star
Reged: 04/16/06
Posts: 3265
Loc: seat zero
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I took the following line as far as NLHE goes:
1) Played for years pre-boom, but played several other games more often. Read a couple books, played marginally ok live at NLHE.
2) Really started hitting the books hard and that started improving things.
3) Got on Cardrunners, 2+2, got set up with PokerTracker, PA HUD also around this time. Later on w/ Stoxpoker.
I don't really believe in coaching at this point because there's so much I can gain from less expensive sources. And beginners, shoot, you don't need an English professor to teach you your ABCs.
If and when I decide to go for coaching, it will be well after I can't get much from reading, training sites and other means. That's hard to do considering the quality of what's out there now.
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The Bryce
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 10/03/05
Posts: 3491
Loc: stoxpoker
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I think it's a really good idea for people to find a coach that they think communicates well once or twice a year (maybe more if you're a really active player) to bump their game forward, clean it up, and give them some new concepts to work on.
I would say that personal coaching and video coaching are largely different products (somebody has commented on this earlier in this thread). One thing to remember is that personal coaching is not always cost-effective for entry level players, and while coaches can be had for $200 an hour the tradeoff you make with getting a coach who is pretty intermediate himself is that you may get one piece of poor advice for every couple pieces of good advice that you receive. Sites like Stoxpoker are can be an excellent tool in that they not only provide a constant stream of content at very economic price, but also give the subscribers access to expert level analysis.
So to summarize, I would say that the coaching sites are no substitute for having an excellent one on one coach, but are an extremely valuable resource in any case (I would be astounded if the $20/month Stoxpoker fee didn't pay for itself many times over for each subscriber each month) and are also perhaps a more economically sensible alternative for newer players.
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Onaflag
veteran
Reged: 10/21/04
Posts: 1340
Loc: Space for Rent
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I never know if I'm supposed to say thanks to lots of helpful responses in a thread fearing a useless bump, but thanks everyone, tons of good advice here.
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