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PL/NL Texas Hold'em >> Small Stakes

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NewUser2006
old hand


Reged: 04/18/06
Posts: 897
4xBB + 1 per limper... why?
      #6166757 - 06/12/06 07:36 PM

In the SSNL FAQ, Skeme has a section that recommends raising 3-4BBs + 1 per limper in order to "protect your hand" and some other mumbo jumbo.

It seems to me that raise size only works optimally when there are a ton of limpers already in the pot, or you have a hand that it is hard to get stacked with.

For other hands, like AK,AA,KK,and QQ, it seems to me like opening for 4BBs is a HORRIBLE opening size. Not only does it not get _much_ value out of the hands that call, but it also chases out hands that you WANT in the pot with you (other aces or hands like K8o) and encourages hands like 55 or 76s to try to stack you.

Can someone explain why 4BBs is a standard opener with your big hands and not something like 7 or 8 BBs, assuming you have at least 100BB?

I understand that you don't need to raise SUPER big all of the time in order to give no one the correct implied odds because you're not going to get stacked all of the time, but let's face it, you are going to get stacked once in a while when you've got an overpair and someone has a set, especially against a very aggressive opponent.

4BBs just seems way too small to me for an opener. Thoughts?


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4_2_itModerator
Donktastic


Reged: 07/12/05
Posts: 18437
Loc: Trying to be the shepherd
Re: 4xBB + 1 per limper... why? [Re: NewUser2006]
      #6166794 - 06/12/06 07:41 PM

So you want to have a 'normal' raise of 4bb and raise your monsters 7bb? That strategy will win the least and lose the most. Your raise size should NEVER EVER be an indication of your hand strength. if you vary your raise size by teh number of limpers or your relative position that's fine, but varying it based upon hand strength is terrible.

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NewUser2006
old hand


Reged: 04/18/06
Posts: 897
Re: 4xBB + 1 per limper... why? [Re: 4_2_it]
      #6166802 - 06/12/06 07:42 PM

Quote:

but varying it based upon hand strength is terrible.




Hmm... I know a certain someone that would disagree completely with this statement.

Anyway, an added element of randomness in your raises should fix that problem.


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kitaristi0
Carpal \'Tunnel


Reged: 02/03/05
Posts: 6132
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Re: 4xBB + 1 per limper... why? [Re: NewUser2006]
      #6166821 - 06/12/06 07:46 PM

Quote:

I know a certain someone that would disagree completely with this statement.




Who?


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Pokey
Pretty much the best poster ever


Reged: 03/15/05
Posts: 3712
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Re: 4xBB + 1 per limper... why? [Re: NewUser2006]
      #6166847 - 06/12/06 07:48 PM

Conventional wisdom dictates that a 4xBB+1/limper raise is very good at getting the pot heads-up on the flop, which, for most hands, is the optimal number of opponents. The problem with preflop raising is that you want to do it often enough to disguise your holdings (raises from you shouldn't automatically mean AA/KK/AK) and gain the initiative in the hand (it's MUCH easier to win after raising than after limping). If you make your standard raise bigger -- say, 8xBB -- then the opposition can defend against you EXTREMELY effectively by tightening up and only playing back when they have monsters of their own. You're basically risking too much to win too little (blinds total only 1.5 BBs), and a savvy opponent can easily take advantage of that. On the other hand, if you raise less, like a minraise to 2xBB, you don't exert enough pressure and wind up playing many hands multiway. This is deadly, especially OOP, and it will cause you to lose many more hands than you otherwise would. Worse yet, you'll commit much more money before you know you're beaten by a stray two pair or some such holding.

Ideally, we'd like to vary our preflop raises to reflect the strength of our hand -- raising more when we've got a super-premium hand, raising less when we've got mediocre holdings. Unfortunately, our opponents have this ridiculous idea that THEY want to win money at the game, and they have the unnerving habit of watching how we play and adjusting to it. If our preflop raise size indicates the strength of our holdings, we're giving away FAR too much information. As a result, all our preflop raises need to be the same size, whether they are blind steals with garbage or value bets with AA.


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NewUser2006
old hand


Reged: 04/18/06
Posts: 897
Re: 4xBB + 1 per limper... why? [Re: kitaristi0]
      #6166860 - 06/12/06 07:50 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I know a certain someone that would disagree completely with this statement.




Who?




I'll give you a hint, he wrote 11 pages on a chapter that is called "Sizing Your Preflop Raises".

And a quote that goes, "Lots of no limit teachers give a rather peculiar piece of advice. They recommend that you always make the same size raises, no matter what hand you hold. [more stuff] This advice strikes us like cutting off your leg to cure your athelete's foot."


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terp
value bluffer


Reged: 12/05/05
Posts: 5522
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Re: 4xBB + 1 per limper... why? [Re: Pokey]
      #6166872 - 06/12/06 07:51 PM

if our opponents were *completely* moronic and not just partially moronic, yeah, we'd raise our premiums bigger for value.

ask tjcombo how he's been doing with that plan...anyone else notice he's been AWOL for a while?


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Tito
member


Reged: 03/06/06
Posts: 163
Re: 4xBB + 1 per limper... why? [Re: NewUser2006]
      #6166891 - 06/12/06 07:53 PM

I think you have an "instant result" mindset instead of a "long term result" mindset like you should have. I don't care how many BBs you raise, you are most likely going to get stacked every time someone has a set to your overpair, but in the long run all 4 of those hands will win more than their fair share. Let's say that you raise preflop whatever your normal raise is and then you get AA-QQ, AK you raise 8BB, how many people do you think won't notice?? As far as chasing out the hands you mentioned, it doesn't matter because you're not going to win a lot of money off them anyway. The "4BB+1" rule is gold. Try it out, you'll be surprised how well it works.

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matv
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Reged: 02/07/06
Posts: 848
Loc: going to the felt with overpai...
Re: 4xBB + 1 per limper... why? [Re: NewUser2006]
      #6166897 - 06/12/06 07:54 PM

agreed with 4 2 it varying ur raise size on the strength of ur hand is not a good idea, and starting to vary different raise amounts just makes hard work for urself...however, i have been thinking about employing a new system of standard raises it would go something like this:

when i first sit at a table my standard raises would be 4BB+ 1 for every limper.

if i find the table to be overly loose or overly tight i would change the initial 4BB raise amount to somewhere between 3BB to 8BB(and also vary my hand selection)

if i found that a specific player was overly loose or overly tight in calling raises/re raises i would change the +1 for every limper to 0.5 to 2(or maybe 3)

example: all stacks of 100BB to make it simple. the table is fairly loose so i decide to make my standard raise 5BB + watever.

UTG(very loose donkey which i decide should have the max +2BB when he limps and i decide to raise) calls, CO(a weak tight player who i add 0.5BB when he limps), HERO on button decides to raise to 7.5BB(5+2+.5)

some thoughts on this idea?


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kitaristi0
Carpal \'Tunnel


Reged: 02/03/05
Posts: 6132
Loc: incognito
Re: 4xBB + 1 per limper... why? [Re: NewUser2006]
      #6166898 - 06/12/06 07:54 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I know a certain someone that would disagree completely with this statement.




Who?




I'll give you a hint, he wrote 11 pages on a chapter that is called "Sizing Your Preflop Raises".

And a quote that goes, "Lots of no limit teachers give a rather peculiar piece of advice. They recommend that you always make the same size raises, no matter what hand you hold. [more stuff] This advice strikes us like cutting off your leg to cure your athelete's foot."




I thought you meant him. However, I think you're misapplying what he means. I'm sure he would never recommend having 8xBB as a standard raise with AA-QQ and AK while having 4xBB as a standard raise for everything else, for reasons already mentioned earlier in this thread.


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