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PL/NL Texas Hold'em >> High Stakes

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MDMA
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Reged: 08/20/05
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Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU [Re: n2p]
#12920530 - 11/12/07 10:40 AM

Huk, I think the fact we have a flush is something thats put too much emphasis on. We could just as well have a pair here, granted he wouldn't slowplay preflop AA-JJ and play it this strong. I guess JJ is reasonble given PF, but does he really bet that this big, I somewhat doubt that. So, just treat our hand as AcTx or so and decide whether we still want to call, fact is, we have lots of stronger hands in our range at this point, thus I can see no real reason to call with the low flush here, unless his bluffing frequnecies is really fundamentally flawed, but basically I doubt this is a preferred bluffing card for him given a 4 is actually atleast a decent part of your range.

Also, furthermore, I think him having a 4 except 44 or 64 is pretty much never happening either.

Edit: We'll I guess we beat 23cc and 73cc and with it being PA, he can probably have those, but that is so marginally better than a pure bluffcatcher that I don't really think it makes enough of a difference. It would make a difference if we have very, very few hands better than bluffcatchers, but that is not the case.

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Requin
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Reged: 08/27/05
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Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU [Re: MDMA]
#12920749 - 11/12/07 11:03 AM

Pretty easy to be on the wrong level here but yeah I don't think he'd put you on a flush very often, alot of people would raise the turn with a flush given the history of you bluff-raising a flush-completing turn. Probably wasn't a paired board in that hand but still, sounds like paired boards should be given less consideration than usual in this matchup. So I like your turn call alot.

On the river, even though its so tough for him to be valuebetting worse I think I'd go with the hand. Disagree with you MDMA, even though we might have stronger hands in our range I think this is still at the very high end. We have flush-blockers which make up a decent part of the range he's representing, and like you said beat a couple of hands he could be v-betting. Simplistic thinking but I would guess it's a close decision and that, barring any 'feel', letting this flush-blocker factor decide it is fine.

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FlyingStart
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Reged: 04/09/05
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Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU [Re: MDMA]
#12920787 - 11/12/07 11:07 AM

Quote:

unless his bluffing frequnecies is really fundamentally flawed, but basically I doubt this is a preferred bluffing card for him given a 4 is actually atleast a decent part of your range.

From the OP it really does sound like PA's bluffing frequency IS flawed, which is why I think this hand boils down to the accuracy of the read.

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recallme
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Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU [Re: LerkEr]
#12920865 - 11/12/07 11:16 AM

flop is fuckimg standard, turn could be a raise, because he could shove trips and every river is scaring us.

On the other side he`s aggro and could be trying to get us off our Tp or so.

Actually i would call turn myself and call most rivers.

After this river we have to ask ourself, if he`s vbetting AT, JJ+ here ( some would say turning into a bluff).
wheater he`s more likelz to bet a flush or call a bet.

I think it`s a call, because he could finally decide to turn some weired pair into a bluff or really have total air

Edited by recallme (11/12/07 11:23 AM)

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KRANTZ
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Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU [Re: btmagnetw]
#12921154 - 11/12/07 11:41 AM

Quote:

in what instances has PA checked the turn after a c/r? very rarely?

not very often at all, and he checkraises a lot. fun, right? i changed up my c-betting frequency after awhile, though, but this hand occurred before i started getting tricky like that.

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KRANTZ
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Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU [Re: FlyingStart]
#12921163 - 11/12/07 11:42 AM

Quote:

You didnt supply any reads of his betsizing, but his riverbetsize looks more like bluff/FH than a worse flush valuebetting, especially considering the sick price he would be getting if you shoved.

i couldn't figure out any bet-sizing tells

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Astyanax
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Reged: 02/26/07
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Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU [Re: KRANTZ]
#12921362 - 11/12/07 11:59 AM

Can someone list their thoughts (i.e. detail percentages for each range) on the makeup of PA's bluffs his monsters and thin value-bets. This is a really great hand.

Bluffing:
Total Air (less than King High)/Underpair counterfeited
Overpair/Middle-pair/Ace High/10 turned into bluff

Thin/relatively thin Value Betting:
Ace high
Overpair
Lower flush
Higher Flush

Monsters:

Quads
Boat/Overboat
Nutflush

We need to hear Strasser's views on psbetting for value and bluffing and two-way bets on similar boards when there is metagame involved.

Edited by Astyanax (11/12/07 12:03 PM)

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Orlando Salazar
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Reged: 11/22/06
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Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU [Re: KRANTZ]
#12921373 - 11/12/07 12:00 PM

VV cool post.
Simple: PA is not a spew monkey bluff tard. U have a bluff catcher by the river, so fold. Only thing he's vbetting is the full house or maybe better flush.

What hand range can u put him on given read?
PF: Anything suited, 22+, 67o+, Not AA/KK/QQ (i've seen him just defend HU with jacks).
Flop: AJ-AK,QKd,JTc+,45d, A(2-5)s, AXc,any 8+ out draw, 33-99, A4o,7c8x
Turn:AXc,TT,x6,7c8x,44,QJc+
River:AcTx (as a bluff), x6, TT, 44, QJc+

Obv the math against this range makes it a call vs the logic of the hand. But I think u need to call here for metagame.

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g-p
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Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU [Re: Ansky]
#12921417 - 11/12/07 12:05 PM

Quote:

g-p,

I think given the read given, raising turn would be a mistake. I would not mind at all calling the turn and calling like 99% of river cards vs someone who is so likely to vbet worse or bluff off chips.

you dont really say why.

since we has such a huge range here, we should be shoving some weak hands sometimes, which means we should also be able to show up with a flush here sometimes. a % of the time we should raise turn definitely.

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Ansky
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Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU [Re: g-p]
#12921481 - 11/12/07 12:11 PM

Do you think PA will think we are shoving light on the turn?

I would expect him to think our hand is at the bottom of our valueshoving range on the turn.

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