Nick Rivers
enthusiast
Reged: 04/28/04
Posts: 233
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First of all, I don't know what forum this should go in, so if it needs to be moved, go for it, but it happened in a 10/20 live NL game, so I'm putting it here. In the hand, the three relevant players are me, villain, and a big fish. I folded preflop, but, being a diligent poker player, paid attention to the hand.
The fish raised preflop, villain called on the SB, and they were HU on the flop. Villain check-called two streets then check-raised all-in on the river. I'm sorry I don't recall the stacks, but it turns out that isn't really important here. What is important is that I knew the villain was bluffing, or at least I was 90% sure, as I'd played with him several times and had a pretty good read on what his moves meant. So I just said out loud to the fish, "He's bluffing; I'd call it." After some deliberation, fish did just that, and won the pot. Needless to say, this did not go over well with the villain, who proceded to call over the floor and make his case furiously. I got a warning and agreed to not do it again, but after that, the fish had a bigger stack and the villain, who was a competent player (probably breakeven) went on tilt for the better part of an hour.
I realized that it was this poker room's policy to just issue warnings, warnings that never have teeth, and warnings that don't really accrue to an eventual refusal to let you play (assuming you don't get way out of line like sock the shift manager in the jaw or something along those lines). Sure, people don't like this sort of move, and it's poor etiquette, but it did generate some +EV for me by tilting a competent player and building up a fish's stack and, in all honesty, I would do this everytime the opportunity came up as long as I thought I could get away with it. Would you do the same? Is there a better way of acheiving the same end without possibly incurring punishment from the floor, something that could be used in a poker room even where you weren't familiar with their policies?
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Eskaborr
grudge match yo?
Reged: 01/03/07
Posts: 673
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Quote:
Is there a better way of acheiving the same end without possibly incurring punishment from the floor
I believe if you make this a habit the floor will be the comfortable part of the punishment.......
and the boot smashing your face into it will make you think twice about doing it again. You will also be getting about what you deserve.
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JEFF or DAD
banned
Reged: 08/06/07
Posts: 699
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Quote:
First of all, I don't know what forum this should go in, so if it needs to be moved, go for it, but it happened in a 10/20 live NL game, so I'm putting it here. In the hand, the three relevant players are me, villain, and a big fish. I folded preflop, but, being a diligent poker player, paid attention to the hand.
The fish raised preflop, villain called on the SB, and they were HU on the flop. Villain check-called two streets then check-raised all-in on the river. I'm sorry I don't recall the stacks, but it turns out that isn't really important here. What is important is that I knew the villain was bluffing, or at least I was 90% sure, as I'd played with him several times and had a pretty good read on what his moves meant. So I just said out loud to the fish, "He's bluffing; I'd call it." After some deliberation, fish did just that, and won the pot. Needless to say, this did not go over well with the villain, who proceded to call over the floor and make his case furiously. I got a warning and agreed to not do it again, but after that, the fish had a bigger stack and the villain, who was a competent player (probably breakeven) went on tilt for the better part of an hour.
I realized that it was this poker room's policy to just issue warnings, warnings that never have teeth, and warnings that don't really accrue to an eventual refusal to let you play (assuming you don't get way out of line like sock the shift manager in the jaw or something along those lines). Sure, people don't like this sort of move, and it's poor etiquette, but it did generate some +EV for me by tilting a competent player and building up a fish's stack and, in all honesty, I would do this everytime the opportunity came up as long as I thought I could get away with it. Would you do the same? Is there a better way of acheiving the same end without possibly incurring punishment from the floor, something that could be used in a poker room even where you weren't familiar with their policies?
wow u are a huge douche. i never fight ppl, but i think if i was villain id climb over the table and just punch u right in the nose until u stopped moving
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spino1i
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 07/01/05
Posts: 2429
Loc: im a tagfish that always folds
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Wow i hope i never have to play with you
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Nick Rivers
enthusiast
Reged: 04/28/04
Posts: 233
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I don't care if poker players at the table like me. I just want the money. Yes, you're right that villain was mad, and nearly any villain in his position would have been, but the fish wasn't mad.
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Oki-Oki
veteran
Reged: 10/31/06
Posts: 1225
Loc: Does EV come in buckets?
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Uh yeah do this at the wrong table or to the wrong person and your gonna get [censored] up. I know that sounds like an over-reaction but in all honesty if you continue this you deserve it.
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mikech
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 05/20/04
Posts: 1971
Loc: vegas, baby
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Quote:
I don't care if poker players at the table like me. I just want the money.
it is against the rules. you are cheating. you clearly do not care about that either. why are you bothering to ask this forum about it? if you want to, then continue doing it. you may eventually meet with consequences, or you may not. why the f should we care?
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lapoker17
wtf
Reged: 09/14/04
Posts: 4988
Loc: FEELING YOU
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yeah you're a dbag, but it's still pretty hilarious.
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Equal
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 04/25/04
Posts: 2368
Loc: Vancouver players PM me!
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If you did this to me I wouldnt say a word, but make sure I follow you into the parking lot for a discussion. Or the bathroom. Somewhere where there's no cameras.
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bizzym00
member
Reged: 07/07/07
Posts: 183
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one time i was playing a friendly game in my friends basement with a couple of other guys and my friend (who is stupid) had a straight but didnt know and almost folded on the river to a bet but i kindly whispered to him what he had...anyways he won and his opponent proceeded to pull a knife out of his pocket SCARY
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bizzym00
member
Reged: 07/07/07
Posts: 183
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he was mad at me or something what a babyyy
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Nick Rivers
enthusiast
Reged: 04/28/04
Posts: 233
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Quote:
it is against the rules. you are cheating. you clearly do not care about that either. why are you bothering to ask this forum about it? if you want to, then continue doing it. you may eventually meet with consequences, or you may not. why the f should we care?
Is it against the rules or just against the rules of etiquette? Dropping the F-bomb is "against the rules" at the WSOP, but that isn't considered cheating. It generally carries a warning and then a time-out penalty, but it's also not enforced 100%. People break that rule all the time. Is stating your opinion about a hand as it happens not more in line with this than it is with cheating? Cheating generally involves something clandestine and unknown to the players, whereas all I did was very audibly state my opinion about a hand. I also gained no direct monetary benefit from this, so I don't think it would be considered cheating according to the statutes of most gaming jurisdictions.
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Nick Rivers
enthusiast
Reged: 04/28/04
Posts: 233
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Quote:
and the boot smashing your face into it will make you think twice about doing it again. You will also be getting about what you deserve.
Quote:
Uh yeah do this at the wrong table or to the wrong person and your gonna get [censored] up. I know that sounds like an over-reaction but in all honesty if you continue this you deserve it.
Quote:
If you did this to me I wouldnt say a word, but make sure I follow you into the parking lot for a discussion. Or the bathroom. Somewhere where there's no cameras.
I really appreciate all of the internet tough-guyism coming out in this thread, but I have yet to have my ass kicked by a poker player and I don't think it's ever going to happen. Would I pull this move if Floyd Mayweather Jr. were the villain? No, of course not. Would I pull this move if some poker geek with a math degree who complains about girl troubles on BBV4Life were the villain? You bet.
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Micturition Man
can't spell his own name
Reged: 11/17/03
Posts: 805
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Quote:
Quote:
it is against the rules. you are cheating. you clearly do not care about that either. why are you bothering to ask this forum about it? if you want to, then continue doing it. you may eventually meet with consequences, or you may not. why the f should we care?
Is it against the rules or just against the rules of etiquette? Dropping the F-bomb is "against the rules"
at the WSOP, but that isn't considered cheating. It generally carries a warning and then a time-out penalty, but it's also not enforced 100%. People break that rule all the time. Is stating your opinion about a hand as it happens not more in line with this than it is with cheating? Cheating generally involves something clandestine and unknown to the players, whereas all I did was very audibly state my opinion about a hand. I also gained no direct monetary benefit from this, so I don't think it would be considered cheating according to the statutes of most gaming jurisdictions.
I guess I don't really believe this but my initial feeling was that you deserve to be shot in the head.
And the fact that you tried a gangsta "I'm all 'bout the money" defense when you only play 10/20 frankly makes it even worse.
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soah
Unexpected
Reged: 06/21/04
Posts: 20529
Loc: Las Vegas
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you intentionally cheated and weren't punished. congrats, and gfy
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bilbo-san
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 07/08/04
Posts: 4103
Loc: In ur game, pickin off ur bluf...
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Quote:
Quote:
it is against the rules. you are cheating. you clearly do not care about that either. why are you bothering to ask this forum about it? if you want to, then continue doing it. you may eventually meet with consequences, or you may not. why the f should we care?
Is it against the rules or just against the rules of etiquette? Dropping the F-bomb is "against the rules" at the WSOP, but that isn't considered cheating. It generally carries a warning and then a time-out penalty, but it's also not enforced 100%. People break that rule all the time. Is stating your opinion about a hand as it happens not more in line with this than it is with cheating? Cheating generally involves something clandestine and unknown to the players, whereas all I did was very audibly state my opinion about a hand. I also gained no direct monetary benefit from this, so I don't think it would be considered cheating according to the statutes of most gaming jurisdictions.
It's against the rules of the casino. In the same sense that smoking is, or string-betting.
Obviously, you don't care. That's fine. But you ARE going to get [censored] up in a parking lot someday. If you are cool with:
a) being a [censored]
b) getting [censored] up
go with it.
Also, it might occur to you that being an ass isn't a very good long-term strategy. There are plenty of regs that you'll have to play with. If you are better then them, it's better for you if they don't hate you.
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riverboatking
veteran
Reged: 06/08/04
Posts: 1582
Loc: held down by the man
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thank god for the 2nd amendment.
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mikech
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 05/20/04
Posts: 1971
Loc: vegas, baby
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Quote:
Is it against the rules or just against the rules of etiquette?
one player to a hand. this is not merely etiquette. you have knowledge of information the other players do not possess, so you are not allowed to influence the play of a hand you're not involved in. this should not be difficult to understand.
Quote:
Is stating your opinion about a hand as it happens not more in line with this than it is with cheating? Cheating generally involves something clandestine and unknown to the players, whereas all I did was very audibly state my opinion about a hand.
look, you cheated, you are a cheater, and you clearly stated in this thread that you intend to continue to cheat as long as you think you can get away with it. ok, good for you. you can rationalize anything you want. like i said earlier: why are you bothering to ask this forum about it? why the f should we care? we already know there are plenty of cheats and scumbags in the poker world, you're just one of many.
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soah
Unexpected
Reged: 06/21/04
Posts: 20529
Loc: Las Vegas
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It's against the rules of the casino. In the same sense that smoking is, or string-betting.
Neither of these is cheating. Helping another player play his hand is.
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RandomUser
addict
Reged: 03/20/05
Posts: 678
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Every casino I've ever seen has a "one player per hand" rule.
You violated that in a major way and generated more ill will than any temporary +ev you received for the next hour.
I guarantee that word will get around as to what you did and you are going to have a target on your back for as long as you play at that casino.
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LucidDream
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/19/06
Posts: 2012
Loc: watching my winrate decline
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WOW...this might be the first time I have ever seriously gotten pissed reading a story on the internet. I truly hope very bad things happen to you in life...like say your brakes not working on the highway.
Edited by LucidDream (08/17/07 04:07 AM)
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Nick Rivers
enthusiast
Reged: 04/28/04
Posts: 233
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Quote:
And the fact that you tried a gangsta "I'm all 'bout the money" defense when you only play 10/20 frankly makes it even worse.
10/20 NL is sometimes the biggest game in town, and I'm not enough of a balla yet to have a private jet to fly me around the world to catch all of the best 25/50+ games as they're going down, and I'm definitely not skilled enough to beat the nosebleed stakes games online. I'm just out there trying to make that loot in whatever game I can beat.
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Nick Rivers
enthusiast
Reged: 04/28/04
Posts: 233
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Quote:
Also, it might occur to you that being an ass isn't a very good long-term strategy. There are plenty of regs that you'll have to play with. If you are better then them, it's better for you if they don't hate you.
Is it? That's conventional wisdom, but is it true? Is it better to be liked or reviled by the other skilled players in the poker room? What is your evidence for thinking it's better not to be hated?
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FishSticks
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 09/16/05
Posts: 2687
Loc: Tailgating at the Ralph
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Well if your goal is to make everyone hate you and think you're a huge d-bag, you're certainly on the right track.
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Oki-Oki
veteran
Reged: 10/31/06
Posts: 1225
Loc: Does EV come in buckets?
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Quote:
Quote:
and the boot smashing your face into it will make you think twice about doing it again. You will also be getting about what you deserve.
Quote:
Uh yeah do this at the wrong table or to the wrong person and your gonna get [censored] up. I know that sounds like an over-reaction but in all honesty if you continue this you deserve it.
Quote:
If you did this to me I wouldnt say a word, but make sure I follow you into the parking lot for a discussion. Or the bathroom. Somewhere where there's no cameras.
I really appreciate all of the internet tough-guyism coming out in this thread, but I have yet to have my ass kicked by a poker player and I don't think it's ever going to happen. Would I pull this move if Floyd Mayweather Jr. were the villain? No, of course not. Would I pull this move if some poker geek with a math degree who complains about girl troubles on BBV4Life were the villain? You bet.
Honestly I wasnt going for the internet tough guy approach, but I have played in some games with some pretty rough ppl. And I was just commenting that if you continue this behaviour the wrong person might just take offence.
I dont necessarily believe that this would happen to you but you have to admit that there is atleast a chance of it happening. And if it does, you deserve it was my point.
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Oki-Oki
veteran
Reged: 10/31/06
Posts: 1225
Loc: Does EV come in buckets?
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And also this is cheating it violates the one player to a hand rule. As you are offering your insight which unfairly influences a players action.
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Nick Rivers
enthusiast
Reged: 04/28/04
Posts: 233
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Quote:
one player to a hand. this is not merely etiquette. you have knowledge of information the other players do not possess, so you are not allowed to influence the play of a hand you're not involved in. this should not be difficult to understand.
This is an interesting point, and perhaps one that deserves further consideration. You say I used information not available to everyone (good luck proving that a tell is not available to everyone, or that it constitutes information in the legal sense) to influence a hand I was not a part of. Suppose I was still in the hand? I have information not readily available to others in every hand I'm in, my cards. Suppose I have a monster hand and I want him to call and I say, "you should call." That wouldn't be cheating, would it? It would just be manipulation. Suppose I was going to fold and I say, "you should call." In either case, is this really anything more than using table talk to manipulate an opponent?
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SEABEAST
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 11/16/04
Posts: 2426
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yeah it's +ev but it makes you a scumbag. if you hate everyone you play with then maybe its worth it but pull this kind of move at a private game and youll get pummelled. anyway if its "all about the money" why the [censored] are you playing live? maybe just multitable a game 1/4 as big and make more money and not have to resort to tempting people to beat the [censored] out of you?
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Nick Rivers
enthusiast
Reged: 04/28/04
Posts: 233
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Quote:
Honestly I wasnt going for the internet tough guy approach, but I have played in some games with some pretty rough ppl. And I was just commenting that if you continue this behaviour the wrong person might just take offence.
I dont necessarily believe that this would happen to you but you have to admit that there is atleast a chance of it happening. And if it does, you deserve it was my point.
Poker is a game of calculated risks. This includes the play of the cards as well as the metagame. But, that said, thank you for looking out for my well-being by pointing out this violent possibilty to me.
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Nick Rivers
enthusiast
Reged: 04/28/04
Posts: 233
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Quote:
yeah it's +ev but it makes you a scumbag. if you hate everyone you play with then maybe its worth it but pull this kind of move at a private game and youll get pummelled. anyway if its "all about the money" why the [censored] are you playing live? maybe just multitable a game 1/4 as big and make more money and not have to resort to tempting people to beat the [censored] out of you?
Yeah, I barely ever play live. About 95% of my EV comes from online play, where I almost never chat, much less take shots like this. I guess I do have a particular dislike for most live players, because they're annoying, and the slow pace of the game makes their repugnant personalities readily apparent as they chatter away during the shuffling and dealing, whereas online, I'm playing too many windows, too fast to get involved with much discussion.
But, this is all beside the point. The point is always EV maximization, and sometimes I'm sitting at a live table for whatever reason, and I'm stuck playing there. So I take shots to help make up for the slow pace of the game.
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Micturition Man
can't spell his own name
Reged: 11/17/03
Posts: 805
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Quote:
Quote:
Honestly I wasnt going for the internet tough guy approach, but I have played in some games with some pretty rough ppl. And I was just commenting that if you continue this behaviour the wrong person might just take offence.
I dont necessarily believe that this would happen to you but you have to admit that there is atleast a chance of it happening. And if it does, you deserve it was my point.
Poker is a game of calculated risks. This includes the play of the cards as well as the metagame. But, that said, thank you for looking out for my well-being by pointing out this violent possibilty to me.
This is embarassing.
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FishSticks
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 09/16/05
Posts: 2687
Loc: Tailgating at the Ralph
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Quote:
why the [censored] are you playing live? maybe just multitable a game 1/4 as big and make more money and not have to resort to tempting people to beat the [censored] out of you?
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...e=7&fpart=1
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obvv
journeyman
Reged: 10/22/06
Posts: 89
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Nick,
I'm with you fully on the principle of not caring about rules as long as a move has a positive financial expectation.
I saw this old lady walkin down the street the other day, and i crept up behind that sumbizitch and laced her across the back of the head and stole her handbag.
Keep it real for all the old school ballas homie, dont matter if you made a G today in a sleazy way, you gotta get paid.. AMIRITE?
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Nick Rivers
enthusiast
Reged: 04/28/04
Posts: 233
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Quote:
And also this is cheating it violates the one player to a hand rule. As you are offering your insight which unfairly influences a players action.
Cheating according to the law or according to the rules of the poker room? Breaking a poker room's rules doesn't make you a cheater, and it's not illegal. Breaking the law does make you a cheater and is illegal. In the case of this example, there is no proof I used any information not available to everyone to influence the outcome of the game, so I don't think it can be considered cheating.
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Oki-Oki
veteran
Reged: 10/31/06
Posts: 1225
Loc: Does EV come in buckets?
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Quote:
Quote:
Honestly I wasnt going for the internet tough guy approach, but I have played in some games with some pretty rough ppl. And I was just commenting that if you continue this behaviour the wrong person might just take offence.
I dont necessarily believe that this would happen to you but you have to admit that there is atleast a chance of it happening. And if it does, you deserve it was my point.
Poker is a game of calculated risks. This includes the play of the cards as well as the metagame. But, that said, thank you for looking out for my well-being by pointing out this violent possibilty to me.
I'm not looking out for you, I honestly believe you are a scumbag. You are cheating, a number of very smart posters have told you why it is cheating yet you completly disregard what they have said.
I know the goal in poker is to win all the money but what your doing is disgusting. I just dont get why you would stoop this low for what is a very small edge. The situations where you are able to influence the action are fairly rare and probably add very little to your hourly rate.
What would be your reaction if someone did this to you? Do you believe that this is a fair tactic?
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Nick Rivers
enthusiast
Reged: 04/28/04
Posts: 233
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Quote:
Nick,
I'm with you fully on the principle of not caring about rules as long as a move has a positive financial expectation.
I saw this old lady walkin down the street the other day, and i crept up behind that sumbizitch and laced her across the back of the head and stole her handbag.
Keep it real for all the old school ballas homie, dont matter if you made a G today in a sleazy way, you gotta get paid.. AMIRITE?
That would be illegal, and just plain mean. I wouldn't do that.
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Oki-Oki
veteran
Reged: 10/31/06
Posts: 1225
Loc: Does EV come in buckets?
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Quote:
Quote:
And also this is cheating it violates the one player to a hand rule. As you are offering your insight which unfairly influences a players action.
Cheating according to the law or according to the rules of the poker room? Breaking a poker room's rules doesn't make you a cheater, and it's not illegal. Breaking the law does make you a cheater and is illegal. In the case of this example, there is no proof I used any information not available to everyone to influence the outcome of the game, so I don't think it can be considered cheating.
You cant be this dilusional. Of course the basic information is availiable to everyone at the table, ie observation. But YOU are gathering this information and interpreting it based on your OWN experiences and skills, thus making a determination on what the players action means. This analysis is personal and should not be availiable to anyone else at the table. DUCY??
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Oki-Oki
veteran
Reged: 10/31/06
Posts: 1225
Loc: Does EV come in buckets?
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Quote:
Quote:
And also this is cheating it violates the one player to a hand rule. As you are offering your insight which unfairly influences a players action.
Cheating according to the law or according to the rules of the poker room? Breaking a poker room's rules doesn't make you a cheater, and it's not illegal. Breaking the law does make you a cheater and is illegal. In the case of this example, there is no proof I used any information not available to everyone to influence the outcome of the game, so I don't think it can be considered cheating.
I dont get it if your breaking the rules of the cardroom you are playing in you are still cheating within the context of that game.
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Nick Rivers
enthusiast
Reged: 04/28/04
Posts: 233
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Quote:
What would be your reaction if someone did this to you? Do you believe that this is a fair tactic?
Obviously I'd be nonplussed. But so what? Most people won't pull this tactic even if they could. What makes this exploitable for me is that I'm willing to stoop to a lower level than my opponents in order to win the money. It's the same thing that makes us all exploitable to outright cheaters... card markers or people who work with the help or anything like that. It's just a different level of stooping, and one where the line is drawn before it becomes illegal. I'm actually not morally opposed to cheating (it's really no different in principle when someone uses his finely-honed manual dexterity to get an edge than when someone uses his finely-honed mind to get an edge... either way, the sucker has no chance and isn't fully aware of what's going on), but I won't do it because the threat of prison time is enough of a negative EV situation to make it not worth it, especially when not cheating doesn't bring a huge opportunity cost, because I can make very good money without breaking the law. In a battle of wits like a poker game, if I get beaten by another man's ingenuity, regardless of its legality, I have to respect it even if I don't appreciate being victimized by it. It is that very respect that will drive me to find a different game, where I can win.
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mwalsh2020
enthusiast
Reged: 12/13/04
Posts: 281
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you're either incredibly dumb, a sociopath or an online troll seeking attention... and its certainly possible you're all three
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Nick Rivers
enthusiast
Reged: 04/28/04
Posts: 233
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Quote:
I dont get it if your breaking the rules of the cardroom you are playing in you are still cheating within the context of that game.
I guess we just disagree on this point. Breaking a cardroom's rules is not the same thing as breaking the law. One carries legal penalties, whereas the other carries only the threat of being barred from the cardroom (beatdowns from ninja poker players I piss off aside).
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Nick Rivers
enthusiast
Reged: 04/28/04
Posts: 233
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Quote:
you're either incredibly dumb, a sociopath or an online troll seeking attention... and its certainly possible you're all three
Actually, I am seeking ideas for how this move can be enhanced further, and for how to make the most of it. I guess I'll just stop "defending myself" in this thread against all of the angry people and just invite anyone with a great idea or who wants to discuss such shot taking further to send me a private message. I'm not really here to discuss morality, just to discuss methods of EV acquisition.
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Beermantm
member
Reged: 05/11/06
Posts: 143
Loc: Chicago!!!!! South Side!!
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I personally think this play is brilliant!!! I think I would add more to it though to make it a bit more effective. Like instead of just telling the fish the guy is bluffing and he should call I think I would add in some name calling. Something like "Call that no good rotten scum sucking bag of Bull Shi ting sorry excuse of a poker player!!!" Then I would tell the fish that if he calls and loses that I would cover his loss because I'm that confident that he's full of it. Then after the hand is over I would ask everyone at the table if they seen what just happened?? If they didn't I would tell them the story including some more name calling. I would then proceed to try to call anyone that is in the area over to the table to point out how dumb that bet on the end was and how you were the one to catch him on it. That would be the only thing I talked about for the rest of the night while looking over at the guy pointing and laughing. Finally when you absolutely are told you have to shut up about it start calling people over and whispering in their ears and pointing at the same guy laughing more.
I'm serious man I think you should push this edge as hard as you possibly can because really what is he gonna do about it?? Yeah your gonna follow me outside right!!! LMFAO!!!!!
From that day on I think anytime I ran into this guy I would just look at him and laugh!!!
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Kirkrrr
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 05/06/04
Posts: 1929
Loc: wtf
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OP, I sincerely hope you get hit by some sort of crippling disability where the only thing you will be able to do for the rest of your miserable existence is lay in your bed and piss yourself. That's less than you deserve but it would suffice.
Kirk
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AAismyfriend
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 05/26/06
Posts: 2907
Loc: Valuestacking myself
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Quote:
OP, I sincerely hope you get hit by some sort of crippling disability where the only thing you will be able to do for the rest of your miserable existence is lay in your bed and piss yourself. That's less than you deserve but it would suffice.
Kirk
My thoughts exactly, I hope you have AIDS
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MagicNinja
*
Reged: 05/21/05
Posts: 780
Loc: Perth, Western Australia
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well how about this. I am better at poker than you. You do this to a fish; next thing u know i am telling players in every hand your hand because i read hands better than you read hands. I am discussing how you play hands constantly with other players. I am tipping the floor and getting you kicked out of the games I play.
From a game theory perspective, it is better not to be a pr1ck but you probably can't think outside a 'hand at a time' kind of ev bubble since you're a r3tard fish who i hope dies in a fire that is fueled by both grease and the corpses of your freshly born children.
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riverboatking
veteran
Reged: 06/08/04
Posts: 1582
Loc: held down by the man
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Quote:
well how about this. I am better at poker than you. You do this to a fish; next thing u know i am telling players in every hand your hand because i read hands better than you read hands. I am discussing how you play hands constantly with other players. I am tipping the floor and getting you kicked out of the games I play.
From a game theory perspective, it is better not to be a pr1ck but you probably can't think outside a 'hand at a time' kind of ev bubble since you're a r3tard fish who i hope dies in a fire that is fueled by both grease and the corpses of your freshly born children.
MagicNinja for mod.
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Oki-Oki
veteran
Reged: 10/31/06
Posts: 1225
Loc: Does EV come in buckets?
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I have wasted so much time in this thread already. But I concur with Kirkrr and MagicNinja. Be sure to close your eyes before crossing the street.
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Nick Rivers
enthusiast
Reged: 04/28/04
Posts: 233
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In the interest of intellectual responsibility, I felt it necessary to point out this strawman so that people here aren't duped by its apparent accuracy:
Quote:
From a game theory perspective, it is better not to be a pr1ck
That's true assuming the other party will stoop to tit for tat. Most people don't have it in them to do that though, so you end up exploiting them and not getting exploited back in turn. Most people can't get past the notion that "breaking the rules is bad," and, as such, never fight back, hoping instead that the wrongs they perceived will be righted, be it by "justice" or kharma or some other abstract concept. In the concrete world of reality, these things don't manifest by themselves, but require instead for the wronged party to take action. With careful analysis of the opposition, you can all but guarantee that the other party will never strike back but, instead, will just lie down and take it. As is obvious from all the statements of potential retribution from the posters in this thread, you can't just pull this move on anyone and everyone.
In terms of being a prick, the most successful people in the world are almost all pricks, crooks, liars, or all of the above, at least if we're measuring success by wealth accrued. They have made it their business to find ways to exploit the world's consumerist culture and ignorance and claim as much wealth as possible for themselves. Did Bill Gates steal ideas from Steve Jobs? Does Sheldon Adelson mercilessly exploit Asian ignorance about gambling and superstition to the tune of $1,000,000/hour in Macau? Is Mark Rich the 242nd richest person in America despite all of the laws he supposedly broke? And I'm the scumbag for tilting some poker player and helping some fish win a pot? Pshaw. Poker is said by many to be life in a microcosm, and just as in life, you find people looking for angles everywhere, be it in game theory, card manipulation, psychology, mastery of hand reading, refinement of their game through internet messageboards or wherever they can find it. Finding and exploiting weaknesses in your opponents and in the system itself (as per the short stack method in NL hold'em, for example) is how money is made, and this is just another example of it.
I'll also heed your warning in the event that I'm ever in a poker game in Perth. Thanks for the heads up.
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DeMaci
old hand
Reged: 03/06/05
Posts: 855
Loc: Orange County
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The rule live is one player per hand, dont be such a piece of [censored].
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stephenNUTS
old hand
Reged: 10/12/06
Posts: 964
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and you guys hammer me?
Wow,its a good thing this guy plays 95% online as he says,as he would not be around the other 5% to discuss this if he didnt.
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Foucault
Philosopher of Poker
Reged: 07/24/05
Posts: 3661
Loc: WSOP '07 TR on web (see profil...
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Quote:
I personally think this play is brilliant!!! I think I would add more to it though to make it a bit more effective. Like instead of just telling the fish the guy is bluffing and he should call I think I would add in some name calling. Something like "Call that no good rotten scum sucking bag of Bull Shi ting sorry excuse of a poker player!!!" Then I would tell the fish that if he calls and loses that I would cover his loss because I'm that confident that he's full of it. Then after the hand is over I would ask everyone at the table if they seen what just happened?? If they didn't I would tell them the story including some more name calling. I would then proceed to try to call anyone that is in the area over to the table to point out how dumb that bet on the end was and how you were the one to catch him on it. That would be the only thing I talked about for the rest of the night while looking over at the guy pointing and laughing. Finally when you absolutely are told you have to shut up about it start calling people over and whispering in their ears and pointing at the same guy laughing more.
I'm serious man I think you should push this edge as hard as you possibly can because really what is he gonna do about it?? Yeah your gonna follow me outside right!!! LMFAO!!!!!
From that day on I think anytime I ran into this guy I would just look at him and laugh!!!
This deserves more love. Almost made cereal come out of my nose!
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ike
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 01/20/04
Posts: 2130
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Quote:
Quote:
I dont get it if your breaking the rules of the cardroom you are playing in you are still cheating within the context of that game.
I guess we just disagree on this point. Breaking a cardroom's rules is not the same thing as breaking the law. One carries legal penalties, whereas the other carries only the threat of being barred from the cardroom (beatdowns from ninja poker players I piss off aside).
actually, you're just strictly wrong on this point. cheating in casino games in order to gain an unfair edge and take other people's (or the house's) IS ILLEGAL. people have been prosecuted and convicted for it. what you did is neither morally nor legally different from other forms of petty theft.
in practice, you can reasonably claim you didn't know what you did wasn't allowed and its not a big enough deal that you'd ever actually prosecuted for it. but regardless, your point that "it's not like you're actually breaking the law" is misinformed.
you suck. get hit by a bus.
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Nielsio
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 08/14/05
Posts: 10570
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It may be +EV in moneys, but it's also -EV in karma and soulpoints and any money you win with it is going to be tainted and you will hate yourself for the rest of your life.
You have a choice.
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Nick Royale
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 09/25/04
Posts: 6815
Loc: Sverige
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This is even more stupid than that guy who posted because he wanted opinions on whether or not he should use bots to win money at poker.
Quote:
In the case of this example, there is no proof I used any information not available to everyone to influence the outcome of the game
At very least it's pretty easy to prove you looked at your hole cards before folding your hand. Not that it matters. You're a [censored] idiot.
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Rekrul
member
Reged: 10/31/06
Posts: 179
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suicide yourself OP
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Brett D
stranger
Reged: 07/19/07
Posts: 18
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god this guy makes me want to type in all caps...
i dont think i would hate him as much if he didn't post with the full intention of not listening/understanding/taking-other-peoples-opinions-into-mind. if you're going to post and still be hardheaded in your stance and not care what people say then why don't you just tell this story to your dog?
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Nick Rivers
enthusiast
Reged: 04/28/04
Posts: 233
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Quote:
It may be +EV in moneys, but it's also -EV in karma and soulpoints and any money you win with it is going to be tainted and you will hate yourself for the rest of your life.
You have a choice.
I don't believe in the supernatural, so that's an easy choice for me.
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AcidKnight
enthusiast
Reged: 04/21/07
Posts: 243
Loc: Las Vegas
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Like talking to a brick wall.
This thread is amazing solely for the stupidity/ignorance of the OP as well as the multiple and varied traumas wished upon him by the most respected posters on this site.
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Janis N.
addict
Reged: 07/05/07
Posts: 527
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op is trolling, stop feeding him
and I agree with the wishes the other posters have made for op
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Nick Rivers
enthusiast
Reged: 04/28/04
Posts: 233
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Quote:
i dont think i would hate him as much if he didn't post with the full intention of not listening/understanding/taking-other-peoples-opinions-into-mind. if you're going to post and still be hardheaded in your stance and not care what people say then why don't you just tell this story to your dog?
Here's why I haven't listened to what people have been saying in this thread:
It's 50% moralizing.
It's 20% people wishing I were dead.
It's 20% people telling me I'm going to get beat up.
That adds up to 90% useless in my book, and I can't believe there aren't at least a few people here who find profit and amusement in angle shots like this. Oh well! To the 10% who tried to legitimately engage the idea, thanks.
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Nick Rivers
enthusiast
Reged: 04/28/04
Posts: 233
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Quote:
op is trolling, stop feeding him
and I agree with the wishes the other posters have made for op
So bringing up an unpopular target is trolling? This is a poker site, and, like it or not, angle shots are part of poker. Even Mason gives John Fox's book high marks, and that book has plenty of advice about taking shots. This high rating despite some of the plays "bordering on cheating."
Anyway, I happen to be interested in the angle shooting area of live poker. If some of you guys aren't and it just makes you mad, then just stay out of the thread.
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Triumph36
Good Citizen
Reged: 07/25/04
Posts: 9388
Loc: Osi Ukin'-yora
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Quote:
In the interest of intellectual responsibility, I felt it necessary to point out this strawman so that people here aren't duped by its apparent accuracy:
Quote:
From a game theory perspective, it is better not to be a pr1ck
In terms of being a prick, the most successful people in the world are almost all pricks, crooks, liars, or all of the above, at least if we're measuring success by wealth accrued. They have made it their business to find ways to exploit the world's consumerist culture and ignorance and claim as much wealth as possible for themselves. Did Bill Gates steal ideas from Steve Jobs? Does Sheldon Adelson mercilessly exploit Asian ignorance about gambling and superstition to the tune of $1,000,000/hour in Macau? Is Mark Rich the 242nd richest person in America despite all of the laws he supposedly broke? And I'm the scumbag for tilting some poker player and helping some fish win a pot? Pshaw. Poker is said by many to be life in a microcosm, and just as in life, you find people looking for angles everywhere, be it in game theory, card manipulation, psychology, mastery of hand reading, refinement of their game through internet messageboards or wherever they can find it. Finding and exploiting weaknesses in your opponents and in the system itself (as per the short stack method in NL hold'em, for example) is how money is made, and this is just another example of it.
I'll also heed your warning in the event that I'm ever in a poker game in Perth. Thanks for the heads up.
you are a moron and wasted everyone's time with this pointless rant about exploitation.
bottom line this angle shot is horrible and if you played in a live game consistently, you'd be the only one left in it after too long.
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SlowHabit
*
Reged: 04/23/06
Posts: 1509
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If you're going to be an a**, you can at least be smooth about it by talking to your neighbor and whisper "I'd call this." During this moment, the whole table is silent and I'm sure the fish will hear you.
Nevertheless, you need to get some moral. Winning using dirty tricks will get you in trouble. As for making fun of the geeky kid with a math degree, that nerdy might go both Columbine and Virginia Tech on your a**.
And oh yeah, since you're shooting angle to win moneys, you're probably aren't that good at poker. I will pull a MagicNinja on you and start calling your hands.
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Jackal69
old hand
Reged: 08/24/05
Posts: 732
Loc: gg shortstackers!
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is nick rivers a bruiser gimmick account?
Edited by Jackal69 (08/17/07 11:01 AM)
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Jackal69
old hand
Reged: 08/24/05
Posts: 732
Loc: gg shortstackers!
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this is admittedly a pretty dumb thread, but what would you all do if your best poker buddy (who is currently down on his luck) is on your right and considering the call and the SB is some douche you hope dies in a grease fire. Would you kick your friends leg under the table as he goes to muck his cards or stick to the rules? What if you were taking a share in said friends action?
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ijustliketoplay
member
Reged: 10/12/04
Posts: 146
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man, tell me where you play. just tell me. I'll 'maximise your EV' for a chance to land a right hand on the bridge of your nose
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AcidKnight
enthusiast
Reged: 04/21/07
Posts: 243
Loc: Las Vegas
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I've had this happen before where I know the guy is bluffing and my buddy is in the hand making a decision. Maybe it says something about my ethical values or something, but I just couldn't put myself to do anything about it. He's a good player and he will figure things out. I just wasn't going to start cheating so he could make a few dollars.
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Nick Rivers
enthusiast
Reged: 04/28/04
Posts: 233
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Quote:
this is admittedly a pretty dumb thread, but what would you all do if your best poker buddy (who is currently down on his luck) is on your right and considering the call and the SB is some douche you hope dies in a grease fire. Would you kick your friends leg under the table as he goes to muck his cards or stick to the rules? What if you were taking a share in said friends action?
This probably goes without saying, but I would definitely indicate to him to make the call.
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RandomUser
addict
Reged: 03/20/05
Posts: 678
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Personally, I think you are simply a troll and that this event never happened.
You just thought it would be a great story that was guaranteed to get a rise out of people.
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SlowHabit
*
Reged: 04/23/06
Posts: 1509
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Quote:
this is admittedly a pretty dumb thread, but what would you all do if your best poker buddy (who is currently down on his luck) is on your right and considering the call and the SB is some douche you hope dies in a grease fire. Would you kick your friends leg under the table as he goes to muck his cards or stick to the rules? What if you were taking a share in said friends action?
And what if you're end up recommending the wrong decision?
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JEFF or DAD
banned
Reged: 08/06/07
Posts: 699
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Quote:
well how about this. I am better at poker than you. You do this to a fish; next thing u know i am telling players in every hand your hand because i read hands better than you read hands. I am discussing how you play hands constantly with other players. I am tipping the floor and getting you kicked out of the games I play.
From a game theory perspective, it is better not to be a pr1ck but you probably can't think outside a 'hand at a time' kind of ev bubble since you're a r3tard fish who i hope dies in a fire that is fueled by both grease and the corpses of your freshly born children.
awesome
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FoxwoodsFiend
Prahlad Friedman?
Reged: 11/15/04
Posts: 4497
Loc: i ain't got my taco
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Quote:
but, being a diligent poker player, paid attention to the hand.
hysterical...do you want a cookie or something?
and yeah, you're a huge piece of [censored] for making this move
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ike
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 01/20/04
Posts: 2130
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Quote:
Quote:
op is trolling, stop feeding him
and I agree with the wishes the other posters have made for op
So bringing up an unpopular target is trolling? This is a poker site, and, like it or not, angle shots are part of poker. Even Mason gives John Fox's book high marks, and that book has plenty of advice about taking shots. This high rating despite some of the plays "bordering on cheating."
Anyway, I happen to be interested in the angle shooting area of live poker. If some of you guys aren't and it just makes you mad, then just stay out of the thread.
i've thrown out the "wrong" color chip on purpose, asked for irrelevant rulings to mislead my opponents about my hand, and done some other [censored] that might qualify as "angle shooting" on occasion. what you did is not like these things.
what you did doesn't "border on cheating." it is very very clearly cheating.
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antipeon
member
Reged: 02/14/07
Posts: 129
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nick rivers: you're a loser
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Daut44
member
Reged: 07/13/06
Posts: 177
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youre [censored] pathetic
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Hattifnatt
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 02/02/05
Posts: 8202
Loc: FT
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FFS,
I really wish I didnt read this post.
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Ineedaride2
veteran
Reged: 10/16/05
Posts: 1517
Loc: *
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Quote:
Quote:
and the boot smashing your face into it will make you think twice about doing it again. You will also be getting about what you deserve.
Quote:
Uh yeah do this at the wrong table or to the wrong person and your gonna get [censored] up. I know that sounds like an over-reaction but in all honesty if you continue this you deserve it.
Quote:
If you did this to me I wouldnt say a word, but make sure I follow you into the parking lot for a discussion. Or the bathroom. Somewhere where there's no cameras.
I really appreciate all of the internet tough-guyism coming out in this thread, but I have yet to have my ass kicked by a poker player and I don't think it's ever going to happen. Would I pull this move if Floyd Mayweather Jr. were the villain? No, of course not. Would I pull this move if some poker geek with a math degree who complains about girl troubles on BBV4Life were the villain? You bet.
So sayeth the anonymous poker geek.
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grando
witty comic
Reged: 08/15/06
Posts: 7045
Loc: let us gogogogo
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did this actually happen?
yes +1450
no -1600
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jaybizzle
enthusiast
Reged: 03/23/06
Posts: 264
Loc: 19 callers on an 18 person tab...
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Quote:
did this actually happen?
yes +1450
no -1600
No.
I've had this happen to me online for a pretty big pot...not a good feeling.
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HEK
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 10/12/04
Posts: 4800
Loc: selling cake $ @ 5% vig
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wowowowowwow you are a huge huge dbag.
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RichGangi
*
Reged: 08/23/05
Posts: 965
Loc: Boston, MA
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You cannot influence the action like this. Angle-shooters like you should be shot.
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AZK
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 12/23/03
Posts: 6450
Loc: medical school
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Yes it was wrong. One hand to a person. You have more information then the fish (potential hole cards that you know villain can't have, giving into your "read"). So many other things that I could respond to but it'd be a waste.
/end of thread
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