Terms & Conditions

Internet Magazine

Non–US new players
Get five 2+2 books


Order Books
Book Translations
Forum Login
 
 
Expand All   Collapse All

 Two Plus Two 
2+2 Magazine Forum
Special Sklansky Forum
2+2 Pokercast
About the Forums

 General Poker Discussion 
Beginners Questions
Books and Publications
Televised Poker
News, Views, and Gossip
Brick and Mortar
Home Poker
Beats, Brags, and Variance
Poker Theory
Poker Legislation

 Coaching/Training 
StoxPoker
DeucesCracked

 German Forums 
Poker Allgemein
Strategie: Holdem NL cash
Strategie: Sonstige
Internet/Online
BBV
Small Talk
German Poker News

 French Forums 
Forum francophone
Strategie
BBV (French)

 Limit Texas Hold'em 
High Stakes Limit
Medium Stakes Limit
Small Stakes Limit
Micro Stakes Limit
Mid-High Short-handed
Small Stakes Shorthanded
Limit––>NL

 PL/NL Texas Hold'em 
High Stakes
Medium Stakes
Small Stakes
Micro Stakes
Small-High Full Ring
Micro Full Ring

 Tournament Poker 
Small Stakes MTT
High Stakes MTT
MTT Community
STT Strategy
Tournament Circuit

 Other Poker 
Omaha/8
Omaha High
Stud
Heads Up Poker
Other Poker Games

 General Gambling 
Probability
Psychology
Sports Betting
Other Gambling Games
Entertainment Betting

 Internet Gambling 
Internet Gambling
Internet Bonuses
Affiliates/RakeBack
Software

 2+2 Communities 
Other Other Topics
The Lounge: Discussion+Review
El Diablo's General Discussion
BBV4Life

 Other Topics 
Golf
Sporting Events
Politics
Business, Finance, and Investing
Travel
Science, Math, and Philosophy
Health and Fitness
Student Life
Puzzles and Other Games
Video Games
Laughs or Links!
Computer Technical Help
Sponsored Support Forums
RakebackNetwork
RakeReduction.com
Other Links
Books
Authors
Abbreviations
Calendar
Order Books
Books by Others
Favorite Links
Feedback
Advertising Information
Home
Posting Hints
Privacy Notice
Forum Archives

The 2+2 Forums

Before using this Forum, please refer to the Terms and Conditions (Last modified: 2/26/2006)

Be sure to read the   Two Plus Two Internet Magazine

This is an archive. The main forums are here

These forums are read only.


 
UBB.threads™ Groupee, Inc.

PL/NL Texas Hold'em >> Micro Stakes

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | >> (show all)
Pokey
Pretty much the best poster ever


Reged: 03/15/05
Posts: 3712
Loc: Using the whole Frist, doc?
Buy in short to protect your bankroll!
      #7964709 - 11/07/06 06:45 PM

You'll often hear people talk about playing a "short-stack strategy": the idea is that you buy in for less that the maximum (often for the very minimum) in order to take advantage of your opponents. You can get yourself all-in relatively easily, and if your opponents fail to adjust properly you can win money.

While this statement is undeniably true, there are some huge flaws with this thought process.

Flaw #1: Short-stack strategy gives up your biggest poker advantage.

As students of the game, we are better players than our opponents. While that superior game-playing pays off somewhat preflop, it pays off far more significantly on postflop streets. Think of it: most preflop hand matchups involve relatively narrow edges. Pair vs. overcards? You're going to win at showdown about 55% of the time. Dominated hand (like AK vs. A6)? You're about a 70% favorite. Even pair vs. lower pair is only an 80% favorite to win. Most hand matchups are relatively close, and multiplied by relatively small amounts of money. In a heads-up match, a $1 bet on an 80% favorite clears you on average about 60 cents worth of profit. This is not the way to get rich playing poker.

Consider instead the play on later streets. First, the edges can be FAR larger. If you flop a nice hand, your opponent could easily be a 5-to-1 dog to win the hand. On the turn, that same hand could easily become a 10-to-1 dog. Of course, on the river your opponent is either a 100% loser or a 100% winner, so that river money is PURE profit (or loss, if you've made a mistake).

In addition, the dollar values are usually significantly larger on later-street bets. Since our wagers are typically measured in fractions of the pot, we will often see river bets that are 10 times larger than preflop bets. Take the following representative example:

You have QQ on the button in a $25NL game. You raise to $1 preflop and get called by the big blind (who is holding AJo). As a 72% favorite to win the hand, the preflop wager earns you about 33 cents.

The flop comes JT3. Your opponent checks and you bet $2 into a $2 pot. Your opponent calls. As an 80% favorite, this bet earns you $1.20.

The turn is another 3. You bet $5 into the $6 pot and your opponent calls again. At this point you are an 89% favorite to win the hand, so this bet earns you $3.90.

The river is yet another 3. You bet all-in for your last $17 and your opponent calls. This bet wins you $17.

Notice the difference in magnitude of the money you make on various streets: your preflop bet wins you 33 cents but your river bet wins you $17. Notice also that if you had pushed preflop and somehow gotten called by AJ, your expected win is only $11, less than the river bet when you play the hand out. This is because of the significant chance of a suckout loss, which is nonexistent on the river.

Our opponents play sloppy preflop poker, but they play absolutely HORRENDOUS postflop poker. By outplaying them on the expensive streets, we stand to win heaping piles of money. Playing a short-stack strategy, we won't really have a chance to play postflop poker, and we will therefore surrender our chance at all that postflop shwag.

Flaw #2: Short-stack strategy stunts your growth as a poker player.

I consider this second point even more significant: short-stack strategy is an inherently preflop game. You wait for your good hands, you bet hard preflop, and you push any flop. In doing so, you never have to think about postflop strategy, you never have to put an opponent on a hand, you never have to develop your reading skills, you never have to learn multi-street gambits, you never have to worry about overarching strategies, and you never have to improve as a poker player. Because it is so mindless, you never have to apply your mind to the game, and most short-stack experts never do. Heed the words of an OUTSTANDING poker player (Jason Strassa) in this thread where he suggested shaking yourself out of your comfort zone and putting yourself into challenging situations in order to improve as a player, knowing full well that you're not necessarily maximizing your profit for THAT EXACT MOMENT but that in the long run your strategy will quickly improve you as a poker player. From this, profits will follow.

In summary, playing short-stacked poker is a crutch that may make you some bucks in the immediate future but will cost you much in the long run. You play uNL poker to learn; don't subvert that learning process by eliminating the most challenging -- and most profitable! -- part of the poker game.

As a final parting shot, I offer up one little hand history to demonstrate one of the biggest pitfalls of short-stack strategy:

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $182.55
UTG+1: $310.85
Pokey: $219.40
Button: $98.50
SB: $148.35
BB: $25.35

Pre-flop: (6 players) Pokey is CO with J Q
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, Pokey raises to $5, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: K T 9 ($20.5, 4 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 bets $20.5, Pokey calls, Button folds, BB calls all-in $20.35.

Turn: 4 ($81.85, 2 players + 1 all-in - Main pot: $81.55, Sidepot 1: $0.3)
UTG+1 bets $50, Pokey raises to $100, UTG+1 calls.

River: 9 ($281.85, 2 players + 1 all-in - Main pot: $81.55, Sidepot 1: $200.3)
UTG+1 checks, Pokey is all-in $93.9, UTG+1 calls.

Results:
Final pot: $469.65
BB showed T 9 and wins the $78.55 (after rake) main pot.
Pokey showed J Q and wins the $388.10 side pot.
UTG+1 mucks T K

While I realize that this isn't a representative hand, it does illustrate a point: notice that the best hand won about one-fifth the amount I won. Don't stunt your game or your winrate by playing short-stacked!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
iraise50
member


Reged: 05/28/05
Posts: 121
Loc: Manhattan
Re: Buy in short to protect your bankroll! [Re: Pokey]
      #7964878 - 11/07/06 06:57 PM

You know, this is one of the reasons I love reading anything you post. I think you do such a terrific job of explaining concepts and you are a real asset to this site.

This is the first time I ever read it so well-thought and well-written...I think I'm going to stop buying in for 50bb and leaving once I get to 150bb. Thank you for writing such a good post!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Speedlimits
Carpal \'Tunnel


Reged: 01/14/06
Posts: 2780
Re: Buy in short to protect your bankroll! [Re: iraise50]
      #7965040 - 11/07/06 07:11 PM

Quote:

You know, this is one of the reasons I love reading anything you post. I think you do such a terrific job of explaining concepts and you are a real asset to this site.

This is the first time I ever read it so well-thought and well-written...I think I'm going to stop buying in for 50bb and leaving once I get to 150bb. Thank you for writing such a good post!




Why would you leave when you get 150BB. Unless you have to go their really shouldn't be any set limit as to when you should leave.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
D.L.M.
Carpal \'Tunnel


Reged: 10/14/06
Posts: 3691
Loc: dude i suck.
Re: Buy in short to protect your bankroll! [Re: iraise50]
      #7965081 - 11/07/06 07:14 PM

Im new to NL so dont berate me. but given that river, if you were in first position would you still push?

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
iraise50
member


Reged: 05/28/05
Posts: 121
Loc: Manhattan
Re: Buy in short to protect your bankroll! [Re: Speedlimits]
      #7965131 - 11/07/06 07:18 PM

Yeah, I know, I just usually end up doing it out of habit from before, when I didn't have confidence to make the choices when I had larger stacks against others. I wouldn't mind some of it when it was 50bb versus 50, or 100 versus 100, but I wasn't trusting myself once I got past 150bbs...I feel I'm a stronger player now, and I just haven't stopped the old habits. They're gone now. We all have to evolve, and no one evolves all at once.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pokey
Pretty much the best poster ever


Reged: 03/15/05
Posts: 3712
Loc: Using the whole Frist, doc?
Re: Buy in short to protect your bankroll! [Re: D.L.M.]
      #7965142 - 11/07/06 07:19 PM

Quote:

Im new to NL so dont berate me. but given that river, if you were in first position would you still push?




Absolutely, but only because of my read on the opponent (which I didn't bother to include in the original post). Villain was a 61/14 donk. He's the reason I'm at the table. He's terrible, and I know his range is blown completely out of the water by my hand. Against him, I push this river every time. In fact, from the flop on I was just trying to figure out how best to get all the money into the middle. With 220BBs, that's a non-trivial task. Luckily, he made it easy for me.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Dans Full
member


Reged: 08/27/06
Posts: 116
Loc: America Jr.
Re: Buy in short to protect your bankroll! [Re: Speedlimits]
      #7965152 - 11/07/06 07:20 PM

This is an excellent post, and I have realized the error in my ways.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
iraise50
member


Reged: 05/28/05
Posts: 121
Loc: Manhattan
Re: Buy in short to protect your bankroll! [Re: Dans Full]
      #7965223 - 11/07/06 07:27 PM

me too

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
GtrHtr
Trained Killer


Reged: 02/22/05
Posts: 3729
Re: Buy in short to protect your bankroll! [Re: Pokey]
      #7965316 - 11/07/06 07:35 PM

While I agree with this post and its well thought out arguments, there are reasons why playing shortstacked is a viable option.

1. As a technique to help some players mentally when moving up in limits.

2. When you need to tighten up your game. Playing short often forces players to tighten up their game when they would otherwise spew money with a full stack because of tilt, a bad run or just plain lagitus.

3. You often get called by crap when you finally shove AA with 40-50bbs against a standard player with 100bb's+.

All that being said, I much prefer to play with a full buyin, nh Pokey.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
CaucasianAsian29
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 08/31/05
Posts: 1638
Loc: Beat: Santa Maria CA
Re: Buy in short to protect your bankroll! [Re: GtrHtr]
      #7965428 - 11/07/06 07:43 PM

Cool Post, you da man!!

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | >> (show all)



Extra information
0 registered and 26 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  ama0330, ajmargarine, EMc, orange, Matt Flynn, Sunny Mehta, Mike Haven 

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating:
Topic views: 8328

Rate this topic

Jump to

contact us 2+2 Publishing

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5


Message Boards and Forums Directory

Pages provided by ConJelCo