Terms & Conditions

Internet Magazine

Non–US new players
Get five 2+2 books


Order Books
Book Translations
Forum Login
 
 
Expand All   Collapse All

 Two Plus Two 
2+2 Magazine Forum
Special Sklansky Forum
2+2 Pokercast
About the Forums

 General Poker Discussion 
Beginners Questions
Books and Publications
Televised Poker
News, Views, and Gossip
Brick and Mortar
Home Poker
Beats, Brags, and Variance
Poker Theory
Poker Legislation

 Coaching/Training 
StoxPoker
DeucesCracked

 German Forums 
Poker Allgemein
Strategie: Holdem NL cash
Strategie: Sonstige
Internet/Online
BBV
Small Talk
German Poker News

 French Forums 
Forum francophone
Strategie
BBV (French)

 Limit Texas Hold'em 
High Stakes Limit
Medium Stakes Limit
Small Stakes Limit
Micro Stakes Limit
Mid-High Short-handed
Small Stakes Shorthanded
Limit––>NL

 PL/NL Texas Hold'em 
High Stakes
Medium Stakes
Small Stakes
Micro Stakes
Small-High Full Ring
Micro Full Ring

 Tournament Poker 
Small Stakes MTT
High Stakes MTT
MTT Community
STT Strategy
Tournament Circuit

 Other Poker 
Omaha/8
Omaha High
Stud
Heads Up Poker
Other Poker Games

 General Gambling 
Probability
Psychology
Sports Betting
Other Gambling Games
Entertainment Betting

 Internet Gambling 
Internet Gambling
Internet Bonuses
Affiliates/RakeBack
Software

 2+2 Communities 
Other Other Topics
The Lounge: Discussion+Review
El Diablo's General Discussion
BBV4Life

 Other Topics 
Golf
Sporting Events
Politics
Business, Finance, and Investing
Travel
Science, Math, and Philosophy
Health and Fitness
Student Life
Puzzles and Other Games
Video Games
Laughs or Links!
Computer Technical Help
Sponsored Support Forums
RakebackNetwork
RakeReduction.com
Other Links
Books
Authors
Abbreviations
Calendar
Order Books
Books by Others
Favorite Links
Feedback
Advertising Information
Home
Posting Hints
Privacy Notice
Forum Archives

The 2+2 Forums

Before using this Forum, please refer to the Terms and Conditions (Last modified: 2/26/2006)

Be sure to read the   Two Plus Two Internet Magazine

This is an archive. The main forums are here

These forums are read only.


 
UBB.threads™ Groupee, Inc.

PL/NL Texas Hold'em >> Micro Stakes

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | >> (show all)
EMcModerator
The People's Mod


Reged: 02/24/05
Posts: 7663
Loc: LETS GO YANKEES!!
**uNL Concept of the week: Week 3, Pot Control**
      #7947101 - 11/06/06 02:19 PM

NL is a complex game. We all know this. Sure, you get 2 cards, but the game is far more than just the 2 in your hand and the 5 on the board. For the next few weeks, uNL is going to have a concept of the week thread discussing a certain concept or theory in NL Hold'em.

In this thread you should post HH's showing situations where the concept was applied effectively as well as examples of poor usage of the concept. Also, please debate over various aspects of the concept and it's pro's and con's.

___________________________________________________________

Week 3, Pot Control

What is pot control
Pot control is the idea of controling the size of the pot, whether you wish to make it small or big. In the Little Green Book by Phil Gordon, he has a over simplified but yet important saying: "Small hand, small pot; Big hand, big pot." Pot control is about making the pot big or small, but is usually discussed on keeping the pot small or managable.

Why to exercise pot control

Touched on in the first sentence, certain hands are best played in a small pot situation, certain hands are best played in a large pot situation. By keeping the pot small on earlier rounds, it makes putting the bets put in with "marginal" hands smaller and keeps the pot a reasonable size and you are not bringing a knife to a gun fight.

When to use pot control

Pot control is best applied when you have a hand with good showdown value but can't take a lot of heat. It is also good against tighter opponents who often arent calling with the same crap the fish are. It is best applied in a Way Ahead, Way Behind situation.

How to exercise pot control

Often, pot control can be exercised in a few manners. When in position, the best way is often checking the turn when the board isn't particularly drawy or you arent vunerable. Another way to exercise pot control is to call a bet when lead into as the PFR, not raise. When OOP, pot control can be exercised by often by your general bet size, and also by check calling

Anything Else

Knowing when to use pot control is important. You should still be valuebetting a lot of hands, and not sacrificing clear valuebets in the name of pot control. But sometimes, you just need/want to get to showdown, and thats where pot control comes in.

What about making the pot large?

When you have a big hand, you wanna get the monies in the pot, but also wanna do it in a clear and safe manner. You need to bet enough on earlier streets to stop a draw from being profitable, but have enough behind to bet on a later street to also make the draw unprofitable.

_________________________________________________________
This guy is a 22/10 TAG, multitables, isnt too bad.

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $.25/$.50
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $35
UTG+1: $20
Hero: $50
Button: $15.50
SB: $47.75
BB: $121.85

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with A Q
UTG calls, 1 folds, Hero raises to $2.5 , 2 folds, BB calls.

Flop: A 8 :clubs: 2 5, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $4, BB calls.

Turn: 3
BB checks, Hero Checks


River: 9 ($13, 2 players)
BB Bets $10 , Hero Calls


Results:
BB shows A K

Here, I checked the turn to make the pot small and managable, as I was WA/WB. I may have lost this hand but I lost the minimum I shouldve lost with this hand.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
kurto
Carpal \'Tunnel


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 6777
Loc: in your heart
Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 3, Pot Control** [Re: EMc]
      #7947169 - 11/06/06 02:25 PM

Crappy Kicker Pot Control

An argument can be made to lead the flop here. I would rathar have a small pot here. Also- players have been taking stabs at these with underpairs. I think this is classic WA/WB but with little chance for improvement.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
ChipStorm
Village FR Nit


Reged: 10/11/04
Posts: 2584
Loc: Poker For Dogs
Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 3, Pot Control** [Re: kurto]
      #7947390 - 11/06/06 02:42 PM

Small hand, small pot:

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
8 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $109.25
Hero: $55.10
MP1: $19.80
MP2: $35.55
CO: $21.75
Button: $9.65
SB: $49
BB: $140.35

Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is UTG+1 with 8 8
UTG folds, Hero calls, 4 folds, SB calls, BB checks.

Flop: 2 5 9 ($1.5, 3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $1, SB folds, BB calls.

Turn: Q ($3.5, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

Some might argue for betting this turn. Clearly there are draws to worry about, but my hand is at the low end of the food chain for this board, and I can take zero heat.

Couldn't I just bet to try and take it down, and fold to a raise? Sure I could. But what am I going to do when villain calls, then leads a blank river for 1/3-1/2 pot? I'm much better off keeping this small, and just maybe picking off a small bluff, than building the pot and giving myself anguish on the river.


River: 2 ($3.5, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

What can possibly call me here that I beat? I have showdown value, so I'm not risking a checkraise, to which I would obviously have to fold. Check through.

Results:
Final pot: $3.5
BB showed 6d 3s
Hero showed 8c 8s


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
redCashion
veteran


Reged: 02/19/06
Posts: 1286
Loc: Bill Fillmaff Protege
Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 3, Pot Control** [Re: kurto]
      #7947434 - 11/06/06 02:45 PM

When in position I like to bet the turn, and check behind on the river to practice pot control. This gives a few advantages, in not allowing an opponent to draw out on me, by giving people the opportunity to fold on the turn, and by not inducing the auto-bet that you often face on the river once you checked the turn. I hate those bets because I never know if it represents strength or is just the reflexive "he must be weak since he checked the turn".

Of course betting the turn is only effective pot control if they check the river, but they usually do check unless they have a big hand.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
kurto
Carpal \'Tunnel


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 6777
Loc: in your heart
Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 3, Pot Control** [Re: redCashion]
      #7947591 - 11/06/06 02:57 PM

Quote:

When in position I like to bet the turn, and check behind on the river to practice pot control. This gives a few advantages, in not allowing an opponent to draw out on me, by giving people the opportunity to fold on the turn, and by not inducing the auto-bet that you often face on the river once you checked the turn. I hate those bets because I never know if it represents strength or is just the reflexive "he must be weak since he checked the turn".





I completely agree. I much prefer betting the turn and checking the river then giving someone an opportunity to bluff the river making a bet much larger then I want to call.

Quote:

Of course betting the turn is only effective pot control if they check the river, but they usually do check unless they have a big hand.




I agree. Though they will bet the river if you check the turn. Then you're wondering if you got outdrawn... you're not controlling the betsize... and of course you lost an opportunity to have them fold out a better hand on the turn.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
jonyy6788
banned


Reged: 07/27/06
Posts: 3649
Loc: ON AIM
Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 3, Pot Control** [Re: kurto]
      #7949464 - 11/06/06 05:17 PM

Checking turn often induces weaker hands to lead out/call on the river as well, so it's a real tug of war in my mind. You really need to know what your plan of action is on the river regardless of what you do on the turn (check/bet).

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Phytopath
old hand


Reged: 09/21/05
Posts: 782
Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 3, Pot Control** [Re: jonyy6788]
      #7949774 - 11/06/06 05:44 PM

I use both, bet turn for showdown and check turn to induce a call/bluff on the river. It depends on the hand. With TP good kicker I'll typically check the turn, whereas with 2nd pair type hands I'll typically bet the turn. Obviously this is all player dependant.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
matrix
there is NO spoon


Reged: 09/04/05
Posts: 7050
Loc: UK
Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 3, Pot Control** [Re: jonyy6788]
      #7950060 - 11/06/06 06:09 PM

Quote:

Checking turn often induces weaker hands to lead out/call on the river as well, so it's a real tug of war in my mind. You really need to know what your plan of action is on the river regardless of what you do on the turn (check/bet).




How good is your hand and whats it's showdown value?

answer this question and you can more easily decide you plan on the turn.

Do I have middle pair+, either paired MP on the board or a middling pocket pair? can I beat a busted draw??

If the answer to that is yes then more often check the turn and plan on calling any river bet (if the villain is aggro or is likely to bluff his missed draw) IF THE LIKELY DRAW MISSES!

e.g. board is 2flush A94 turn is a brick and it's checked to us. if we have 98s(but no flush draw) our hand has SD value but is very vulnerable. So we check the turn to induce a bluff and also to keep the pot small if the river misses the likely draw and villain bets out we can safely call.

Checking the turn means that the size of villains river bet is kept lower as bets are generally in relation to the potsize. So we keep the pot small as we have a small hand.

If we have KQo on the same board now we want to bet the turn as it charges villain to draw to his flush, it also might win us the pot there and then, and it means villain will likely check to us if his draw misses, (so we can check behind and see the SD and *maybe* our nut no pair hand might be good) however as villain calls a turn bet it's likely he has a little something, perhaps he caught bottom pair on the turn, and he's unlikely to fold to a river bet often enough to make the river bet +EV in the long run.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
munkey
A model citizen


Reged: 05/25/06
Posts: 1340
Loc: stackasaurus
Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 3, Pot Control** [Re: matrix]
      #7957354 - 11/07/06 08:55 AM

I always feel pot control empahsises the value of postion. As pots are easier to control IP than OOP as we can always check the turn or river if checked too.

OOP I like to call flop,lead turn and block the river with a good but not great hand(vs. villans range). Note I also do this with great hands too sometimes but bet the river more.

Example (old as I struggled to find one)
Villan is 20/10 TAGGY villan. BTW this was before I started reraising preflop more.


Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
4 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $55.75
Button: $71.80
Hero: $66.75
BB: $64.70

Pre-flop: (4 players) Hero is SB with A K
UTG raises to $1.75, Button folds, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: 7 A J ($5.25, 3 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG bets $3.5, Hero calls, BB folds.

Turn: 2 ($12.25, 2 players)
Hero bets $7, UTG calls.

I lead the turn here for the lower end of my turn bet size and am willing to fold to a raise vs this villan his smooth call I put him on Ax -may be a split or weaker Ace

River: J ($26.25, 2 players)
Hero bets $12, UTG calls.

That Jack means AJ now beats me but {AK,AQ,AT} I 'beat', so I block/vbet the river for 1/2

Results:
Final pot: $50.25
A medium pot size (~50bbs invested)for my 1 pair hand vs. villans range and I've got to showdown whilst gaining some value along the way. Villan was also co-operating with pot control along the way(as he wanted a smalish pot too) which assisted the hand reading of putting him on Ax so I could have bet the river for slightly more in hindsight.



Hero showed As Kh
UTG mucks Qh Ac


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
ChipStorm
Village FR Nit


Reged: 10/11/04
Posts: 2584
Loc: Poker For Dogs
Re: **uNL Concept of the week: Week 3, Pot Control** [Re: munkey]
      #7957466 - 11/07/06 09:13 AM

Munkey, how do you play if that flop is two-tone or otherwise wet? A/Q/J, A/J/T? T/9/8?

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | >> (show all)



Extra information
0 registered and 8 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  ama0330, ajmargarine, EMc, orange, Matt Flynn, Sunny Mehta, Mike Haven 

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating:
Topic views: 5930

Rate this topic

Jump to

contact us 2+2 Publishing

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5


Message Boards and Forums Directory

Pages provided by ConJelCo