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PL/NL Texas Hold'em >> Micro Stakes

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vixticator
Carpal \'Tunnel


Reged: 01/30/06
Posts: 3639
Weak leads (way too late pooh-bah?) tl;dr
      #13150926 - 11/28/07 04:10 AM

I never did this so this is a topic I think deserves some discussion. Perhaps there has been some but I didn't search to find out. Here goes, probably common knowledge but maybe it'll help some peeps:

What is a weak lead? Also known as donkbet, when a player leads into the preflop raiser OOP. I don't consider betting the turn after calling a c-bet a weak lead though it's similar (slightly stronger play in my experience). This post is purely about the first concept.

IMO the best note you can take if how people respond to a raise after leading weak. Most players will fold to a raise, it's generally a medium strength hand maybe a small to middle pair that's trying to see how you react. Do not continue after a call without a strong hand, at least top pair big kicker (without a read or note ldo). It's rarely a draw or set, or any big hand.

When you first encounter it from an opponent raise ATC. Always. And take a note. Especially if you actually have a strong hand and get to showdown, then you can detail it better. This information is gold. It can take on any form from PSB to a minbet. Can be for value or just a bluff, either way finding out what this means is good and raising seems to be +EV either way. There are times when you may be crushing the deck and slowplay is best but very rarely.

Examples:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

BB ($14.25)
UTG ($24.65)
MP ($39.75)
CO ($25.60)
Hero ($25)
SB ($17.30)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T, A.
3 folds, Hero raises to $1, 1 fold, BB calls $0.75.

Flop: ($2.10) T, Q, 6 (2 players)
BB bets $1.5, Hero raises to $4, BB folds.

Final Pot: $7.60

NOTE: Leads weak with weak hands.


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (5 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

UTG ($16.90)
MP ($49.50)
Hero ($33.85)
SB ($6.75)
BB ($28.20)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A, T.
2 folds, Hero raises to $1, SB calls $0.90, 1 fold.

Flop: ($2.25) 3, T, 5 (2 players)
SB bets $1, Hero raises to $6, SB calls $4.75 (All-In).

Turn: ($14) 6 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($14) Q (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $14

Results below:
SB has 9s Td (one pair, tens).
Hero has Ac Tc (flush, ace high).
Outcome: Hero wins $14.

NOTE: Weak leads with top pair and stacks off.

Discuss. Post your own examples too, I don't think mine are great per se but first two I found.

Edited by vixticator (11/28/07 04:18 AM)


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SDone
addict


Reged: 10/08/07
Posts: 492
Loc: UCSD
Re: Weak leads (way too late pooh-bah?) tl;dr [Re: vixticator]
      #13151321 - 11/28/07 05:19 AM

I need to look through and find mine. This is an awesome topic idea, nothing gives me more trouble than a donk bet.

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PietM
old hand


Reged: 08/16/05
Posts: 837
Loc: All over the (poker)place
Re: Weak leads (way too late pooh-bah?) tl;dr [Re: vixticator]
      #13151331 - 11/28/07 05:22 AM

In your first example villain leads for 3/4 pot. I don't think that's a very weak bet.

If a villain bets more than > 1/2 pot I generally don't raise with ATC. In a headsup pot I raise close to 100% when a villain bets less than 1/2 pot and I have no reads, this seems to be working very well.

Villains that donkbet small, call my raise on the flop and donkbet again on the (seemingly blank) turn confuse me though...


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ama0330Moderator
more whining, less poker


Reged: 04/20/06
Posts: 5704
Loc: Crushing
Re: Weak leads (way too late pooh-bah?) tl;dr [Re: PietM]
      #13151358 - 11/28/07 05:27 AM

I think in both your examples that stack sizes are a huge factor. Someone leading with 100bb behind is very different to someone leading with 10bb behind.

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SDone
addict


Reged: 10/08/07
Posts: 492
Loc: UCSD
Re: Weak leads (way too late pooh-bah?) tl;dr [Re: PietM]
      #13151369 - 11/28/07 05:30 AM

Quote:

In your first example villain leads for 3/4 pot. I don't think that's a very weak bet.

If a villain bets more than > 1/2 pot I generally don't raise with ATC. In a headsup pot I raise close to 100% when a villain bets less than 1/2 pot and I have no reads, this seems to be working very well.

Villains that donkbet small, call my raise on the flop and donkbet again on the (seemingly blank) turn confuse me though...



I never understand what to do there.


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vixticator
Carpal \'Tunnel


Reged: 01/30/06
Posts: 3639
Re: Weak leads (way too late pooh-bah?) tl;dr [Re: PietM]
      #13151388 - 11/28/07 05:34 AM

Quote:

In your first example villain leads for 3/4 pot. I don't think that's a very weak bet.


It's not a weak bet. That's my point. The idea isn't that they lead for small amounts it's that they lead into a preflop raiser. With a strong hand *most* opponents will c/r or c/c and either lead turn or c/r turn, etc. A stronger line. When they just lead right into a raise on the other hand it is typically a weak made hand that they want to either get to showdown with or "find out where they stand" and fold to raise. In my experience they USUALLY fold regardless of bet size. With better reads, once you figure out what this means you can use the info to double barrell and so forth. Some players will lead with very strong hands, especially on drawy boads when they think you are loose... this is not standard. Get notes on them as well.

Leading weak with marginal hands is one of the bigger leaks that the average fish/donk has, if you find out what it means this gives you a tremendous advantage. Some of them will almost always fold to a raise. Some of them will always call down every street. Others call flop and fold turn. Some flopped the nuts and will shove after you raise.

The point being in general, against an unknown opponent, this is a very weak play and raising is +EV as a whole. Especially when you have a strong hand and this happens, value bet every street. The smaller the limit the more truth this is... and at reallllly small stakes (2nl, 5nl) they will often just shove over your raise with underpairs or on a pure bluff with overcards.

Quote:

Villains that donkbet small, call my raise on the flop and donkbet again on the (seemingly blank) turn confuse me though...


This is typically a much stronger line. They are trying to induce another raise. Don't bite. A similar line is like minbet, minbet, shove. People do this with big hands.

Edited by vixticator (11/28/07 05:42 AM)


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vixticator
Carpal \'Tunnel


Reged: 01/30/06
Posts: 3639
Re: Weak leads (way too late pooh-bah?) tl;dr [Re: ama0330]
      #13151409 - 11/28/07 05:39 AM

Quote:

I think in both your examples that stack sizes are a huge factor. Someone leading with 100bb behind is very different to someone leading with 10bb behind.


Agree to an extent. A shortie is more likely to have hit some part of the flop or have some kind of weak made hand that they want to felt. I just used the first examples I could find. A deeper stacked player is more likely to call and c/f to a turn bet (or more likely fold to the raise immediately), though I don't recommend auto double barelling in this spot. Typically they will not value bet thin on river and you can see exactly what the weak lead means.

Basically, the deeper stacked players are more likely to fold the flop or turn and shorties are more willing to felt the hand.

edit: This is my experience at 25nl and lower. No idea if/how it applies to 50nl+.

Edited by vixticator (11/28/07 05:44 AM)


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patrick10
enthusiast


Reged: 05/27/06
Posts: 239
Re: Weak leads (way too late pooh-bah?) tl;dr [Re: vixticator]
      #13167401 - 11/29/07 04:58 AM

Quote:

It's rarely a draw or set, or any big hand.





can we really say this with confidence? i've seen good players and donks lead draws as blocking bets.

I've also personally used and witnessed small donkbets with monsters (in essence inducing a raise)

Generally i think you are right and they are weaker hands- but i don't think you can fully discount draws/ stornger hands


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vixticator
Carpal \'Tunnel


Reged: 01/30/06
Posts: 3639
Re: Weak leads (way too late pooh-bah?) tl;dr [Re: patrick10]
      #13167436 - 11/29/07 05:04 AM

Quote:

can we really say this with confidence? i've seen good players and donks lead draws as blocking bets


No, hence the word rarely. And the part about taking notes, shutting down.

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kroeliewoelie
addict


Reged: 09/09/07
Posts: 466
Re: Weak leads (way too late pooh-bah?) tl;dr [Re: patrick10]
      #13167494 - 11/29/07 05:14 AM

Quote:

Quote:

It's rarely a draw or set, or any big hand.





can we really say this with confidence? i've seen good players and donks lead draws as blocking bets.

I've also personally used and witnessed small donkbets with monsters (in essence inducing a raise)

Generally i think you are right and they are weaker hands- but i don't think you can fully discount draws/ stornger hands




How often do we donk ourselves?

I usually lead with draws, sets on drawy boards, top pairs and middle pairs.


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