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PL/NL Texas Hold'em >> Micro Stakes

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Matt FlynnModerator
Co-Author of PNL


Reged: 10/02/02
Posts: 3285
Loc: Badugi, USA
PNL Study Group Day 2: Stack Sizes
      #11760358 - 08/21/07 09:37 AM

hi all,

getting slammed at work today so hopefully Sunny will wake up soon. i'll be here intermittently.

fire away!

matt


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threads13
Carpal \'Tunnel


Reged: 03/23/06
Posts: 2681
Loc: thread13.com
Re: PNL Study Group Day 2: Stack Sizes [Re: Matt Flynn]
      #11760451 - 08/21/07 09:50 AM

This may be more of an SPR question but would you say that in a 50BB buy-in game it is more difficult to play a strategy based on stealing?

Specifically, with 50BB stacks good stealing type hands like SC's lose a bit of their ability to draw so they will not have as much value. Since they are relying mostly on stealing to make a profit is it much more opponent dependent on whether or not these hands are profitable?


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QTip
Carpal \'Tunnel


Reged: 09/23/04
Posts: 6131
Loc: OH
Re: PNL Study Group Day 2: Stack Sizes [Re: Matt Flynn]
      #11760795 - 08/21/07 10:30 AM

My first question is on page 35. I understand we'll get into the REM process later; however, this hand is in this section so I'll ask away. If you want to save it for later, ok.

At any rate, You have A6 and the flop comes A high and the EP opener moves all in and it folds to you getting 3.1:1 "There can not be any more betting, so it's an easy call".

I'd like to see some sort of break down on why this is an easy call. I mean...I now 3.1:1 means we only need to win like 25% of the time. If our 6 outs are good, then we are 12% to hit that, so against a bigger Ace, we have like 13% equity. So, we're saying here that he is twice as likely to have something else?

Wow.

I just ran this in PS, and I didn't appreciate the impact that even one 6 hand combo would have.

Board: As 9h 4d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 30.361% 29.04% 01.32% 7476 339.00 { Ac6c }
Hand 1: 69.639% 68.32% 01.32% 17586 339.00 { KK+, AJs+, AKo, AdQh, AJo }

I need to play with this stuff more.

Guess there's no question there


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QTip
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Reged: 09/23/04
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Re: PNL Study Group Day 2: Stack Sizes [Re: threads13]
      #11760807 - 08/21/07 10:32 AM

Quote:

This may be more of an SPR question but would you say that in a 50BB buy-in game it is more difficult to play a strategy based on stealing?

Specifically, with 50BB stacks good stealing type hands like SC's lose a bit of their ability to draw so they will not have as much value. Since they are relying mostly on stealing to make a profit is it much more opponent dependent on whether or not these hands are profitable?




That's my understanding too. I've been thinking about this and playing like an 80x stack. I find that this gives me more flexibility. I can create lower sprs, and at the same time, give my oop opponents some fits with their big pair hands. Problem is, my stack normally only stays there for an orbit or 2 anyway, and I'm back to 100x.


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threads13
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Re: PNL Study Group Day 2: Stack Sizes [Re: QTip]
      #11760832 - 08/21/07 10:34 AM

Quote:



... I've been thinking about this and playing like an 80x stack. ... Problem is, my stack normally only stays there for an orbit or 2 anyway, and I'm back to 100x.




Oh, you poor thing!


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Matt FlynnModerator
Co-Author of PNL


Reged: 10/02/02
Posts: 3285
Loc: Badugi, USA
Re: PNL Study Group Day 2: Stack Sizes [Re: threads13]
      #11760853 - 08/21/07 10:36 AM

Quote:

This may be more of an SPR question but would you say that in a 50BB buy-in game it is more difficult to play a strategy based on stealing?




not necessarily - depends on how tight your opponents are postflop. you might still be able to steal effectively.

Quote:

Specifically, with 50BB stacks good stealing type hands like SC's lose a bit of their ability to draw so they will not have as much value. Since they are relying mostly on stealing to make a profit is it much more opponent dependent on whether or not these hands are profitable?




absolutely.


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threads13
Carpal \'Tunnel


Reged: 03/23/06
Posts: 2681
Loc: thread13.com
Re: PNL Study Group Day 2: Stack Sizes [Re: threads13]
      #11760859 - 08/21/07 10:37 AM

Quote:

This may be more of an SPR question but would you say that in a 50BB buy-in game it is more difficult to play a strategy based on stealing?

Specifically, with 50BB stacks good stealing type hands like SC's lose a bit of their ability to draw so they will not have as much value. Since they are relying mostly on stealing to make a profit is it much more opponent dependent on whether or not these hands are profitable?




Also, to take this one step further, what sort of adjustments would you make in a slightly loose game with a 50BB stack size. Is there any way to exploit these players other than playing tight ABC poker with more value betting? Do you find these types of games tend to have some more FE than I am giving them credit for?


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WarhammerIIC
addict


Reged: 02/07/07
Posts: 404
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Re: PNL Study Group Day 2: Stack Sizes [Re: QTip]
      #11760995 - 08/21/07 10:49 AM

Quote:

My first question is on page 35. I understand we'll get into the REM process later; however, this hand is in this section so I'll ask away. If you want to save it for later, ok.

At any rate, You have A6 and the flop comes A high and the EP opener moves all in and it folds to you getting 3.1:1 "There can not be any more betting, so it's an easy call".

I'd like to see some sort of break down on why this is an easy call. I mean...I now 3.1:1 means we only need to win like 25% of the time. If our 6 outs are good, then we are 12% to hit that, so against a bigger Ace, we have like 13% equity. So, we're saying here that he is twice as likely to have something else?

Wow.

I just ran this in PS, and I didn't appreciate the impact that even one 6 hand combo would have.

Board: As 9h 4d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 30.361% 29.04% 01.32% 7476 339.00 { Ac6c }
Hand 1: 69.639% 68.32% 01.32% 17586 339.00 { KK+, AJs+, AKo, AdQh, AJo }

I need to play with this stuff more.

Guess there's no question there



I think the point is that you have a decent-but-not-great hand and you're getting 3:1. Normally, that makes it hard to fold. Add in the fact that you will only have to call $10 (you won't have to call any other bets), and it's pretty much impossible to fold.


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Sunny MehtaModerator
Co-Author of PNL


Reged: 04/17/04
Posts: 1124
Loc: coaching poker and writing "Pr...
Re: PNL Study Group Day 2: Stack Sizes [Re: Matt Flynn]
      #11761610 - 08/21/07 11:50 AM

Quote:



getting slammed at work today so hopefully Sunny will wake up soon.





lol. awake, but will soon be getting slammed too (albeit at the golf course).


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Sunny MehtaModerator
Co-Author of PNL


Reged: 04/17/04
Posts: 1124
Loc: coaching poker and writing "Pr...
Re: PNL Study Group Day 2: Stack Sizes [Re: threads13]
      #11761661 - 08/21/07 11:55 AM

Quote:


Also, to take this one step further, what sort of adjustments would you make in a slightly loose game with a 50BB stack size. Is there any way to exploit these players other than playing tight ABC poker with more value betting? Do you find these types of games tend to have some more FE than I am giving them credit for?




well if they're loose it sounds like your fold equity is not what you should rely on. however, you can loosen up your own "value betting" range. for example, if your normal nut tight strategy involved playing only premium top pair hands, you might add a few more like KJs or whatever to your range if these guys will call with weak top pairs and second pairs all the way down.


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