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PL/NL Texas Hold'em >> Micro Stakes

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ssdex
old hand


Reged: 11/07/06
Posts: 923
general discussion--- the min 3bet
      #11517945 - 08/03/07 02:56 PM

So, with more regularity then normal lately i've been seeing a ton of min 3 betting. The topic of this post is a general discussion how you deal/ or think a player who raises a wide range should deal with min 3bets

assumption: only you and villain (habitual mini 3better) are involved in the pot

are you 4betting these guys a lot--- with your whole range or just some of it

can we ever fold here?
my thoughts are if i have total garbage oop i fold sometimes--- i open a wider range utg and and mp then most
also, I never fold in position and if i don't call i 4bet (AQ or better usually)

Also, when i showdown with these clowns it seems like its always 22-66 or A x suited.


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JechtSphere
journeyman


Reged: 09/09/06
Posts: 68
Re: general discussion--- the min 3bet [Re: ssdex]
      #11518045 - 08/03/07 03:03 PM

I'm finding I'm getting min 3-bet on the flop a lot more also, and I don't think it's players who are trying to take advantage of my c-bet tendencies, but I can't find reasons to make plays at them either because it's generally a short stack who is making this sort of move and when you're shown nothing promising from the flop I just can't feel it's worth sticking around to try and pick something up.

However, if I felt somebody was making this play at me as they'd picked up on me folding to it frequently, I'm gonna start floating them more and more in this spot because I think they'll start shutting down on the turn if I continue to do this, and if not they may completely get off their min 3-bet approach. As with anything poker, it depends heavily on the situation.


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ssdex
old hand


Reged: 11/07/06
Posts: 923
Re: general discussion--- the min 3bet [Re: JechtSphere]
      #11518156 - 08/03/07 03:10 PM

I think floating the flop when people mini raise your cbets is pretty good with some hands.

mini raising is the absolutely worst play in poker--- unless its a river mini raise or a mini raise in a big pot--- b/c these will often induce shoves from overpairs.

this is why mini raising cbets on the flop is so bad--- and why you should float sometims--- just for one card--- plus mini raises usually mean 3 things- nuts/ air or draws. people rarely do this with top parish type hands.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Button ($50)
SB ($38.50)
BB ($58.10)
Hero ($87.55)
MP ($50)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 8, 8.
Hero raises to $2, 3 folds, BB calls $1.50.

Flop: ($4.25) Q, 2, 3 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $2.5, BB raises to $5, Hero calls $2.50.

Turn: ($14.25) 8 (2 players)
BB bets $15, Hero raises to $80.55, BB calls $36.10 (All-In).

River: ($116.45) 7 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $116.45

Results in white below:
BB has 2c 2s (three of a kind, twos).
Hero has 8s 8d (three of a kind, eights).
Outcome: Hero wins $145.90.

mini raising is a gift from donkeys, just dont be a station,


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Kasane
old hand


Reged: 01/06/07
Posts: 906
Re: general discussion--- the min 3bet [Re: ssdex]
      #11518242 - 08/03/07 03:16 PM

First, let's get our terms straight.

Jecht -- you're not getting min 3bet on the flop a lot, I hope. ss is talking about pf. When you open, you're "2betting" because you're raising the initial raise of the blind.

On the flop, when you cbet, and you're min-raised -- that's a simple raise (2bet). When we say bet/3bet on the flop, we bet, they raise, we 3bet.

Yes, I'm seeing more "garbage" hands min 3betting me pf for information. I note the villain doing it and go from there. Generally, it's a mistake on their part because I can call with anything I opened with and they don't get any information except that I don't have a super premium hand. That's not much info though, I'm raising a lot of stuff. If they're doing it with a premium hand, well, it's even a bigger mistake as I can now stack 'em with my junk often enough to make their raise bad.

Note what they're doing it with, and you have a barometer on their holdings. It'll also be a good sign of what any of their bets mean: either strong bet=weak, or weak=strong.

I'm not 4betting light until I have a good handle on which type they are, if then. I play better post flop than they do and I don't mind seeing what comes (usually in position.)


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kaz2107
Jumpman HOLLA!


Reged: 07/26/05
Posts: 2943
Loc: Hating CO pro sports atm
Re: general discussion--- the min 3bet [Re: Kasane]
      #11518280 - 08/03/07 03:19 PM

preflop is im in position i basically never fold and when im oop i called much less. i call pretty narrowly when i am oop pos because i HATE to play with out imputus when im oop and the pot is already startin to get big. that all equals a bad situation for the most part

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ssdex
old hand


Reged: 11/07/06
Posts: 923
Re: general discussion--- the min 3bet [Re: kaz2107]
      #11518330 - 08/03/07 03:22 PM

Quote:

preflop is im in position i basically never fold and when im oop i called much less. i call pretty narrowly when i am oop pos because i HATE to play with out imputus when im oop and the pot is already startin to get big. that all equals a bad situation for the most part




this is what I was kind of thinking--- when im weakish i almost always call the min 3bet oop and then fold to a cbet when i dont hit, and even if i do hit, i usually just end up calling down b/c i have no idea where i stand with 1 pair type hands---- even though folding to a min 3bet seems ludicris---- oop i may start doing it more often if I dont wanna 4bet---- obviously there is a big range i will of course call always oop

in position im never folding

good comments from the last 2 posts!


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Kasane
old hand


Reged: 01/06/07
Posts: 906
Re: general discussion--- the min 3bet [Re: ssdex]
      #11518345 - 08/03/07 03:23 PM

ssdex -- what the hell?

Don't show a hand that you got uber-lucky to win. You didn't even have the odds to call that mr (considering villain's particular holding). If you hadn't hit the 8, and villain had continued to bluff a worse hand, you still -- probably -- would have been forced to fold. That's almost a perfect case of spew, except that you spiked your 2-outer.

And where's the 3bet you opened the topic with?


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kaz2107
Jumpman HOLLA!


Reged: 07/26/05
Posts: 2943
Loc: Hating CO pro sports atm
Re: general discussion--- the min 3bet [Re: ssdex]
      #11518446 - 08/03/07 03:30 PM

Quote:

Quote:

preflop is im in position i basically never fold and when im oop i called much less. i call pretty narrowly when i am oop pos because i HATE to play with out imputus when im oop and the pot is already startin to get big. that all equals a bad situation for the most part




this is what I was kind of thinking--- when im weakish i almost always call the min 3bet oop and then fold to a cbet when i dont hit, and even if i do hit, i usually just end up calling down b/c i have no idea where i stand with 1 pair type hands---- even though folding to a min 3bet seems ludicris---- oop i may start doing it more often if I dont wanna 4bet---- obviously there is a big range i will of course call always oop

in position im never folding

good comments from the last 2 posts!


im practically NEVER calling with hands like QJ or KJ or [censored] like that cuz when i hit 1 pair who tha [censored] knows wut is goin on. i prefer to call with 67s or 86s or stuff like that and then play for combo draws and 2 pair plus. i honestly dont think u can play KQ or KJ or w/e profitably because of rio. u pretty much never win a big pot (unless he just bluffs off) and will win a few small ones. just too tough a spot to play in imo

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ssdex
old hand


Reged: 11/07/06
Posts: 923
Re: general discussion--- the min 3bet [Re: Kasane]
      #11518461 - 08/03/07 03:31 PM

when you are super aggro if you give up on every cbet/// its more of a spew then floating here--- obviously im probably giving up on turn--- most villains check draws on the turn that they mini bet--- its really irrelevent villain had a set here. even if he does im getting 5-1 to see the turn, with him having 100bb's behind my implied odds for calling 5bb's to see turn are perfectly fine and nowhere near spew.

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ssdex
old hand


Reged: 11/07/06
Posts: 923
Re: general discussion--- the min 3bet [Re: ssdex]
      #11518498 - 08/03/07 03:33 PM

i didnt feel posting an example of the mini 3bet preflop was necessary, this happens to me like 10 times over a 600 hand session these days, i just wanted to see how everyone else was dealing with it, success/ failure ect....

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