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PL/NL Texas Hold'em >> Micro Stakes

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SirFelixCat
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 04/05/05
Posts: 2173
Loc: Texas
SB VPIP %...So Pokey's pot got me to thinking...
      #11307085 - 07/20/07 11:28 PM

Pokey's post from last month about this...


So I was reading some older posts and I came across the above gem.

Now, the reason this post really caught my eye is because I am trying to tighten up my VPIP (22-23% right not) and I noticed that my VPIP outta the SB was HUGE compared to most of the other winners at our level (25-50NL I'm about 34 VPIP outta the SB, but I thinkI'm a pretty decent winner out of it).

Here are the parts from the above post that got me thinking about this:

"I've been playing a 31/19/1.5 game with a ridiculously-loose 58% completion rate from the SB. (Hey, if they'll let me in for 0.25% of my stack, I'm wanting to see a flop, baby.) I haven't gotten too far out of line yet, but I do stab at the pot at times, though I typically give up after that."

And here:

"Gigglegirl said:
Quote:


And just out of interest, do you make a profit from the SB?





A fair question, but the answer depends on what you mean by "make a profit." I just checked my stats, and over the last 7,791 times that I was in the small blind at tables with 2 to 6 players, I had a net loss of $701.05 after posting blinds totalling $4,188.72. That means that I won back over 83% of the money I posted in the small blind, despite having a VPIP of 46.7% and a PFR of only 11.6%.

This works out to a loss of -3 PTBB/100, whereas folding the SB every time would give you a loss of -25 PTBB/100. Personally, I'd consider that a "win," but your definition may vary.
"


That last part really got me thinking...how the hell do you figure that out? I want to know whether or not I should tighten up from the SB or continue how I'm playing as I'm pretty confident in my postflop game.

But I don't know how to figure out if I'm winning enough from the SB to warrant continuing the way I'm playing.

Help? Thoughts?

Edited by SirFelixCat (07/20/07 11:33 PM)


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Jer672
enthusiast


Reged: 04/24/06
Posts: 378
Re: SB VPIP %...So Pokey's pot got me to thinking... [Re: SirFelixCat]
      #11307312 - 07/20/07 11:54 PM

eek thats a tough question to figure out. i think one of the easiest ways to tell if that is good or not is to compare with other 2+2ers. finding a range of values that good players have will let you figure out if you are on the better or worse end (i think its obv you are on the better end).

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SirFelixCat
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 04/05/05
Posts: 2173
Loc: Texas
Re: SB VPIP %...So Pokey's pot got me to thinking... [Re: Jer672]
      #11307345 - 07/20/07 11:59 PM

Heh...a couple of us tried to figure this out last night and didn't succeed. So...

Let's see some #'s fellas. I'm at work, so I can't post mine yet, but I will, so that said, what ya got?

# Hands in SB:
VPIP from SB:
BBWon/Hand in SB:


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vixticator
Carpal \'Tunnel


Reged: 01/30/06
Posts: 3639
Re: SB VPIP %...So Pokey's pot got me to thinking... [Re: SirFelixCat]
      #11307372 - 07/21/07 12:03 AM

How do I look at my position stats from just 5NL or w/e? I have a lot of limit and stuff mixed and not sure how to look at only one game.

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Jer672
enthusiast


Reged: 04/24/06
Posts: 378
Re: SB VPIP %...So Pokey's pot got me to thinking... [Re: vixticator]
      #11307416 - 07/21/07 12:10 AM

Ill kick it off with prob the low end =)

# hands in SB: 1164
VPIP from SB: 31.87
BBwon/hand in SB: -.19

the sample size isnt that big and this hand prob has a big effect on the BBwon/hand number:

Bodog History for Hand #808228944
Hold'em No Limit ($0.25/$0.50) - 2007-07-15 20:32:03
Table 'The Glen' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: hipsterdofus ($68.75)
Seat 3: jer672 ($86.88)
Seat 4: briggsisaflamer ($59.70)
Seat 5: turkey ($42.25)
Seat 6: MONKEYLUCK ($210.00)
Seat 7: lwsmith ($76.30)
Seat 8: bntiger ($109.15)
Seat 9: sakkos00 ($60.65)
------------------------------
NEW HAND
jer672: posts the small blind $0.25
briggsisaflamer: posts the big blind $0.50
--- DEALING POCKETS
jer672 is dealt [Jd,Jc]
turkey: calls $0.50
MONKEYLUCK: calls $0.50
lwsmith: folds
bntiger: folds
sakkos00: folds
hipsterdofus: folds
bntiger: has left the table
jer672: raises $1.50 to $2.00
briggsisaflamer: folds
turkey: calls $1.50
MONKEYLUCK: calls $1.50
--- DEALING FLOP [Tc,Js,9s]
jer672: bets $5.00
turkey: folds
MONKEYLUCK: calls $5.00
--- DEALING TURN [4d]
comfortg has joined the table
jer672: bets $15.00
MONKEYLUCK: raises $16.50 to $31.50
jer672: goes all in $64.88
MONKEYLUCK: calls $48.38
MONKEYLUCK: shows [Qc,8c], a Straight, Queen high
--- DEALING RIVER [6d]
jer672: shows [Jd,Jc], Three of a Kind, Jacks
MONKEYLUCK: shows [Qc,8c], a Straight, Queen high
Hand 808228944:
MONKEYLUCK: wins main pot($174.26)
with a Straight, Queen high
turkey: has added $9.75 more chips
jer672: is sitting out


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Jer672
enthusiast


Reged: 04/24/06
Posts: 378
Re: SB VPIP %...So Pokey's pot got me to thinking... [Re: Jer672]
      #11307425 - 07/21/07 12:10 AM

bleh and also just realized that my stats are FR =/

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Gigglegirl
enthusiast


Reged: 02/26/07
Posts: 201
Re: SB VPIP %...So Pokey's pot got me to thinking... [Re: SirFelixCat]
      #11307459 - 07/21/07 12:15 AM

# Hands in SB: 16547 (~25% 20NL, ~75% 50NL)
VPIP from SB: 46.76/7.97 raise
BBWon/Hand in SB: +2ptBB/100

I just run goot from there


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Notfunny1
journeyman


Reged: 11/20/04
Posts: 61
Loc: Iowa
Re: SB VPIP %...So Pokey's pot got me to thinking... [Re: vixticator]
      #11307590 - 07/21/07 12:28 AM

Oddly enough, Pokey has a post in the small stakes sticky called how to use pokertracker, and I think this is mentioned in there.

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SirFelixCat
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 04/05/05
Posts: 2173
Loc: Texas
Re: SB VPIP %...So Pokey's pot got me to thinking... [Re: Notfunny1]
      #11307740 - 07/21/07 12:43 AM

Quote:

Oddly enough, Pokey has a post in the small stakes sticky called how to use pokertracker, and I think this is mentioned in there.




Actually, it's for both the blinds. We revisted that last night, but it just didn't seem to work right...

"4. Defending the blinds. Click on "Turn Filter Off," and then click on "Filters..." again. Under "Blind Status" click on "Either Blind." Now under "Vol. Put $ In Pot" click on "Put Money In." This shows you if you're bleeding money out of the blinds. A "BB/Hand" of about -0.375 would indicate that you were no better off putting money into the pot than if you had folded. If your "BB/Hand" is larger than that, then you typically win back some of your blind money when you put money into the pot from the blinds. That's all you can really hope for."

So if that is the case, instead of "either blind" you use "small blind" in the filter and if that's the case, then anything over -.375 BB/hand would be a good number. But where does that -0.375 come from and is that with both the BB and SB? If that's the case, what is it strictly for the SB?


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Gigglegirl
enthusiast


Reged: 02/26/07
Posts: 201
Re: SB VPIP %...So Pokey's pot got me to thinking... [Re: SirFelixCat]
      #11307908 - 07/21/07 01:06 AM

The -0.375 relates to both blinds. You are forced every 100 blind hands to put in 50 big and fifty small blinds. A big blind is half (0.50) of a Big Bet and a small blind is a quarter (0.25) of a Big Bet. Add the two, divide by 2 and you get (0.50 + 0.25) / 2 = 0.375.
Your default in the small blind would be -0.25ptBB/100 and -0.50ptBB/100 in the big blind.
So basically if you folded every single hand in the blinds you would end up with 0.375ptBB/hand.
If your win rate is lower than that, you'd be better off folding all the hands rather than playing them at a worse loss.

Is this what you're asking?


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