Terms & Conditions

Internet Magazine

Non–US new players
Get five 2+2 books

Order Books
Book Translations
Forum Login
Expand All   Collapse All

 Two Plus Two 
2+2 Magazine Forum
Special Sklansky Forum
2+2 Pokercast
About the Forums

 General Poker Discussion 
Beginners Questions
Books and Publications
Televised Poker
News, Views, and Gossip
Brick and Mortar
Home Poker
Beats, Brags, and Variance
Poker Theory
Poker Legislation


 German Forums 
Poker Allgemein
Strategie: Holdem NL cash
Strategie: Sonstige
Small Talk
German Poker News

 French Forums 
Forum francophone
BBV (French)

 Limit Texas Hold'em 
High Stakes Limit
Medium Stakes Limit
Small Stakes Limit
Micro Stakes Limit
Mid-High Short-handed
Small Stakes Shorthanded

 PL/NL Texas Hold'em 
High Stakes
Medium Stakes
Small Stakes
Micro Stakes
Small-High Full Ring
Micro Full Ring

 Tournament Poker 
Small Stakes MTT
High Stakes MTT
MTT Community
STT Strategy
Tournament Circuit

 Other Poker 
Omaha High
Heads Up Poker
Other Poker Games

 General Gambling 
Sports Betting
Other Gambling Games
Entertainment Betting

 Internet Gambling 
Internet Gambling
Internet Bonuses

 2+2 Communities 
Other Other Topics
The Lounge: Discussion+Review
El Diablo's General Discussion

 Other Topics 
Sporting Events
Business, Finance, and Investing
Science, Math, and Philosophy
Health and Fitness
Student Life
Puzzles and Other Games
Video Games
Laughs or Links!
Computer Technical Help
Sponsored Support Forums
Other Links
Order Books
Books by Others
Favorite Links
Advertising Information
Posting Hints
Privacy Notice
Forum Archives

The 2+2 Forums

Before using this Forum, please refer to the Terms and Conditions (Last modified: 2/26/2006)

Be sure to read the   Two Plus Two Internet Magazine

This is an archive. The main forums are here

These forums are read only.

UBB.threads™ Groupee, Inc.

PL/NL Texas Hold'em >> Micro Stakes

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | >> (show all)

Reged: 08/22/06
Posts: 4444
Some thoughts on game selection
      #10810252 - 06/16/07 01:59 PM

Thoughts on game selection at uNL
By Fiksdal

Game selection is something every serious poker player should have in his mind when he starts a session. Obviously what kind of table you are at and which opponents you are facing, is gonna be crucial for your expected win. Game selection gets more important the higher in stakes you get, but even at 10NL, Iíd definitely recommend considering what kind of tables you chose to sit down at.

Different kinds of players prefer different types of opponents. For instance, if you are a loose aggressive player who get a lot of your profitable situations from fold equity, youíd perhaps prefer tight, passive and nitty opponents that will be easier to run over. If you are a tight aggressive player who usually have the goods when you play big pots, you probably like to have the loose/passive kind of fish, who calls down a lot, by your side. For serious uNL players, this is usually the case, because pretty much no matter what kind of micro stakes table you are at, bluffing several streets with air/a marginal hand, is something you arenít gonna be doing, even if they are kind of tight.

So how do you find the typical loose/passive fish that go to showdown a lot? At 10NL for instance, most of the tables are gonna be filled with them. But even there you would like to find the very juiciest tables, with perhaps even 2 or more 70/8/1-ish types. However, the higher you get up in stakes, the fewer will the true fish be. At 50NL for instance, every table will have at least a couple of TAGs on it. There are of course a lot of fish on 50NL too, but they are rarer. This is where game selection gets even more important.

The POT SIZE strategy
A lot of people start their session by putting themselves on the waiting list for the games with the currently highest average pot sizes. The reasoning behind this tactic is obvious, at the tables where the pots are big; the players seem willing to usually put a lot of money in the pot. This is good for us, who will usually have good cards when we decide to play those big pots. Personally I have used this game selection strategy a lot, and I have had mixed experiences with it.

Problems with this strategy:
1. As a result of other people using the same strategy, there arenít usually any free seats at the table with the highest average pot. Most of the time there are even a couple of people on the waiting list already. So itís probably gonna take something like 10-15 minutes from when you register to when you actually get a seat. By that time, the fish who were putting all that money in the pots might already have been stacked by one of the more solid players at the table! Several times have I waited for a seat at the juiciest game, only to eventually sit down on it to find a bunch of 17/13 tight aggressive players sitting around folding preflop. Clearly this kind of table is also beatable if you adapt, but it is not where the highest possible winrate can be achieved.

2. Big pot size doesnít necessarily mean bad players. First of all, it could simply be a result of variance. For instance, if in one hand BTN pick up KK while BB has AA (theyíll probably get it all-in preflop or on the flop), and then in the next time to deep-stacked players both flop a set, then those pots, and thus the average pot size is gonna be huge no matter how skilled the players are.

Also, good players know how to value bet their strong hands, and build big pots with them. Letís say you have a 6-handed 50NL game with $10 as the average pot size. This is a pretty low number, and the logic assumption about the players at it, is that they arenít gonna pay off your big hands. But is this given? Not necessarily. Ask yourself, what is your favorite kind of fish? Different people might have a different answer to this question, but personally, I definitely prefer the loose passive kind of opponent. Iíd like him to play a lot of hands, call preflop raises all the time and rarely use aggression himself but rather call, call, call. The advantages of facing these kinds of opponents are obvious. We get the ability to decide when the money goes in against them, and they arenít even the aggressive type who bluffs us off the best hand from time to time.

Example hand:
Hero (CO): 100bb: TT
Fish (BB): 70bb [70/6/0.5]: 97

Preflop: (1.5bb, 6 players)
UTG folds, MP folds, Hero raises to 4bb, BTN folds, SB folds, BB calls 3bb.

Flop: 68A (8.5bb, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets 8bb, BB calls 8bb.

Turn: K (24.5bb, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

River: 7 (24.5bb, 2 players)

Now this is a spot where a lot of villains will usually put out a bluff. He missed his OESDFD (something that makes most players frustrated), and he saw us showing weakness by checking behind on the turn. So most of the time they are gonna put out that bluff, taking the pot away from us. However, the 70/6/0.5 player doesnít bet that river. He just wants to see that showdown, after all he has a pair (and we all know how these players overvalue their hands). So he checks, and we get to check behind and take down that 24bb pot.) Such small pots make a surprisingly big difference in your final result.

A table with a small average pot size, may very well be filled with that kind of loose passive fish. Their passive nature has just prevented them to build a lot of big pots. For instance, letís look at another hand where both the involved players are fish with similar stats to the villain in the other hand:

CO: 130bbs: 88
BTN: 130bbs: 99

Preflop: (1.5bb, 6 players)
UTG folds, MP folds, CO calls 1bb, BTN calls 1bb, SB folds, BB checks.

Now only on the preflop round have we seen an example of bad players who youíd love to sit with, but still they donít create big pots. If at least one of these players was a TAG, there would have been at least a raise preflop in this hand, maybe even a 3bet.

Flop: 9 8 2 (3.5bb, 3 players)
BB checks, CO checks, BTN checks (lol)

Now both players decided to slow-play their flopped sets, which is of course a felony on this board and these stacks. It is however an extremely common play by loose/passive fish.

Turn: 4 (3.5bb, 3 players)
BB checks, CO bets 2bb, BTN calls 2bb, BB folds.

CO notices the pot being tiny, and is (correctly) trying to get some money into it. BTN however, decides to keep slow-playing, out of fear of CO going away if he raises.

River: 7 (7.5bb, 2 players)
CO bets 4bb, BTN calls 4bb.

CO sees the card completing the draws. In a scared fashion he puts out a small value/blocking bet. BTN who is also afraid of the draws, just calls! The final pot size is 15.5bb. An incredibly small pot considering the monsters the players had, but such hands go down between passive fish all the time. If this hand had been going on between two TAGs, the final pot size would by all likeliness have been 260bbs.

So a high average pot size doesnít always mean bad players, and a low one doesnít always mean good ones. However, if a good, aggressive player sits down at a table full of these opponents, he will be able to control pot sizes against them. They usually call down too much, and if the aggressive player picks up a bunch of hands that qualify to value bet multiple streets with, pots involving the calling stations and him could get rather large. This is why the tables with the low average pot sizes might not always be that bad at all. Players at it could be very willing to put money in the pot with medium hands. All they need is someone to make bets that they can call. Someone who will build big pots: YOU.

How do you find the tables with this kind of opponents? Personally, there is a strategy I have been using more and more lately. When I start a session I open a couple of empty tables, and sit down at them. What kind of players do you think is gonna sit down with me? Do you think the other decent TAGs who play multiple tables are gonna sit down and play heads up with another regular? Very unlikely. Most of the time the people that come to me are total fish. They usually buy-in for like 20-50bb (a very good sign), and start limping all over the place. It usually doesnít take long before I have 5 sweet loose/passive fish sitting with me, and the average stats of my table are amazingly often along the lines of 50/10/1 when I use this strategy. Then the fish double up through each other and I get to play with them 100bbs deep. uNL, I encourage you all to use this table selection technique the next time you start a session.

See you in the forums.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Lurker for GBBV Mod

Reged: 01/16/07
Posts: 5622
Loc: May your pain be champagne
Re: Some thoughts on game selection [Re: Fiksdal]
      #10810286 - 06/16/07 02:03 PM

nice post.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  

Reged: 09/09/06
Posts: 634
Loc: Brighton, UK
Re: Some thoughts on game selection [Re: Fiksdal]
      #10810360 - 06/16/07 02:12 PM

Very nice post fiksdal, sounds like a interesting strategy to use. Btw you missed a vb on the river of e.g hand 1

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
old hand

Reged: 08/27/06
Posts: 775
Loc: London
Re: Some thoughts on game selection [Re: Sweir]
      #10810363 - 06/16/07 02:13 PM

nh, I especially like the sitting at a fresh table point, its a good idea.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  

Reged: 11/05/06
Posts: 693
Re: Some thoughts on game selection [Re: jk1986]
      #10810641 - 06/16/07 02:53 PM

vn post <3

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  

Reged: 02/15/07
Posts: 1415
Loc: NJ
Re: Some thoughts on game selection [Re: goat_beard]
      #10812543 - 06/16/07 07:00 PM

Sitting heads up is an interesting strategy, and probably effective as long as the tables are filling up. I hate the amount of rake you have to pay, though, in shorthanded uNL tables.

As far as the pot-size selection strategy, I agree that it does have its drawbacks (i.e. short term variance and lack of dependence on players' abilities), but bigger pots magnify the mistakes of your opponents. If you're a solid post-flop player, big pots play to your advantage and you should seek them out with regularity.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  

Reged: 05/11/07
Posts: 12
Re: Some thoughts on game selection [Re: C4LL4W4Y]
      #10812618 - 06/16/07 07:10 PM

great post - thanks buddy

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  

Reged: 09/19/04
Posts: 19438
Loc: University of NE Lincoln/Omaha
Re: Some thoughts on game selection [Re: goat_beard]
      #10812650 - 06/16/07 07:14 PM

this is a good post. i think that the better tables (at least at the 1/2 games) are the ones with few to no regulars are the best ones, no matter what size the average pot.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  

Reged: 03/19/07
Posts: 323
Loc: UK
Re: Some thoughts on game selection [Re: BertieH]
      #10812678 - 06/16/07 07:18 PM

Nice post, definetely trying the open empty table strategy next time I play.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Sean Fraley
old hand

Reged: 08/26/06
Posts: 974
Loc: Ohio, United States
Re: Some thoughts on game selection [Re: samwallistea]
      #10813624 - 06/16/07 08:56 PM

If you have an account on stars, PM me and I will transfer you $10 in gratitude. I tried this tonight and it works great.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | >> (show all)

Extra information
0 registered and 38 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  ama0330, ajmargarine, EMc, orange, Matt Flynn, Sunny Mehta, Mike Haven 

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Topic views: 1383

Rate this topic

Jump to

contact us 2+2 Publishing

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5

Message Boards and Forums Directory

Pages provided by ConJelCo