geormiet
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 07/19/04
Posts: 2237
Loc: San Francisco
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Nothing like a 3 month breakeven stretch to make you stand back and look at what went wrong.
Here is my year in review:
Jan - Feb
I don't play too much online because I haven't figured out a way to cashout from the site I am playing at. I put in maybe 100 hrs at live 40/80 and win a decent amount. For these 2 months I win about 15k which is fine.
March - early April is huge. I have one 20k week in there, and around 40k for the month. Naturally, I am feeling fine.
April, May, June. Nothing. It's an awful, horrible breakeven stretch (I get lots of rakeback, so to be breakeven w/ that means i am losing a LOT). Getting rivered every hand, having every opponent's turn c-r semibluff hitting and all that stuff leads to probably deterioration in my game. I start playing a lot of hands, and I start tilting pretty constantly. I don't play too bad when I tilt, I just don't play my best. Which is about breakeven poker. So I go through this period in a constant haze of tilt (at the tables and away as well)
July
Have one of my first winning days in what feels like 3 weeks, and it's a big one. In the morning I play 200 hands online and win 5k, then I go to bay101 for my first live session in 2 months and win another 5k.
Now since then (over a week ago) I have hardly played. I will play microstakes NL for like 3 hours or something, its pathetic.
I've also been trying to play at AP these last few weeks. In June I had some friends xfer me 6.5k and I lost it all at 5/10 - 25/50. I've paid 2.5k of it back, and I got another $500 to work with. So these last few weeks I was playing my ass off at 3/6 and just not getting ANYWHERE. If I thought that breaking even at my normal stakes was defeating, doing the same while trying hard at AP 3/6 was soul crushing
Anyway, the site that I was playing at is dying. limit holdem has ceased to be profitable. I am looking at other sites, and it seems there are still some goldmines available, but for how long? It seems that pretty soon limit holdem everywhere will become fishless. Live play is still amazing of course. I am planning on trying to incorporate a new routine of playing live a few days every week, but will this be enough? Can I make decent money being a live pro? I used to say that I would never consider playing live for a living, but now I am seriously reconsidering.
I am also trying NL, but really, I hate it. I don't know, it just feels like starting over, and I don't want to start over.
Anyway, I am pretty much just venting here. I am 27 years old and I don't have any work experience. I have enough saved to last me for a while, but it's not like I can retire on it. I was always hoping that I could keep up poker for another 5-10 years and then be set, but I'm feeling more and more like this is not gonna happen. I guess I'm wondering if I have to make a choice, to either switch to online NL or live limit?
ANyway If anyone wants to offer some advice that's cool, but yeah, I'm just hating poker, and I wish things could go back to the way they used to be.
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yourface
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 09/28/04
Posts: 3457
Loc: Canada
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just wait until they start playing online poker in china
for now, take a vacation and go somewhere nice. work on getting rid of your life tilt
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veganmav
Carpal \'Tunel
Reged: 03/26/05
Posts: 4234
Loc: USA
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I don't have much advice to offer. But lemme tell you, it's hard on all of us. Recently I have been finding money making opportunties with my bankroll outside of poker. I think this is important.
Also you have ING direct right? or something like it i hope.
anyway man, yeah it's rough
*hug*
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geormiet
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 07/19/04
Posts: 2237
Loc: San Francisco
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Yeah, I mean, i have my money invested well in retirement accounts and index funds and prosper and 5% savings accounts, but its not like this is enough to live off of.
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donger
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 04/23/04
Posts: 2531
Loc: Portland, OR
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I've been having this same sensation of dread as game selecting seems tougher and tougher. I think most everyone in MHUSH is good enough to start regularly beating other games, but which ones? I hate NLHE so much and LO8 (my other good game) seems to be undergoing the same shakeout as LHE.
Are you there, God? It's me, Donger.
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joker122
Attention Whore
Reged: 12/10/03
Posts: 5504
Loc: raising for information again
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you didn't say specifically what your main game is online but i inferred it was something like 10/20-30/60 or around there.
if that's the case, i really don't know what you guys are talking about. if you have money in ps, ftp, and ap you should almost always be able to find at least 3 tables worth sitting at.
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geormiet
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 07/19/04
Posts: 2237
Loc: San Francisco
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yeah, it's 10/20 - 40/80 just like everyone else.
Maybe I'm just playing at the wrong sites. The fact that it takes me forever to move money around is a big problem.
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Verde
enthusiast
Reged: 05/05/06
Posts: 272
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Aren't the NL games also getting much worse?
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geormiet
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 07/19/04
Posts: 2237
Loc: San Francisco
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That would make me feel better.
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Hock_
old hand
Reged: 08/03/05
Posts: 828
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Quote:
if that's the case, i really don't know what you guys are talking about. if you have money in ps, ftp, and ap you should almost always be able to find at least 3 tables worth sitting at.
Even at higher stakes the games are beatable, but they are definitely tougher than they used to be. Gone are the days when players are going to make 2+BB/100 over any reasonable # of hands (100k hands+), but making even just .5BB/100 at 100/200 can end up being A LOT of money at the end of the year. [0.5BB/100 @ 100/200 x 250,000 hands = $250,000]
But you have to be patient, and by that I mean view results over a period of months rather than days. With such a relatively small edge there will be days or weeks or months when you lose, and the variance can be pretty harsh (so you need to make sure you have adequate bankroll and/or are willing to move down). But if you are a good player then in the long run you will do a hell of a lot better than working just about any other job out there.
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Dave Mac
Chop my finger, Please!
Reged: 02/02/05
Posts: 670
Loc: Like Chester I’m chasin cheese
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i think honestly the biggest thing is re-calibrating your expectations. play live more, work harder, you can still make a killing if you were playing 5-10 6 max i mean it maybe harder to print money but a lot of people still suck a lot. if whatever 5 years ago someone said in 5 years you can only make 200k a year playing online, i bet you would have though wow that would rule, i know i would have, but things were so good we all act like chicken littles now that they are less good. i dunno, that is just my 2 cents and i am also coming off, hopefully, a simliar streach.
dave
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Victor
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 07/13/03
Posts: 11773
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geo i think games are still beatable esp if you are willing to play 10/20. clearly you are running poorly. i am the king of running bad and the key is to play lower, play less tables and make sure there are at least 2 fish.
it does suck that rake is increasing and rb decreasing. for awhile i was getting an awesome deal on ub as they had the lowest rake on the net and were giving me 30% plus about 1c every 2 hands in bonus money. now the rake is the highest on the net, with a 10% mgr deduction for americans and bonus has been slashed to like 1c ever 8 hands.
as for nl i have done well over about 30k hands at 2-4 thru 5-10. problem is that it i find its about the most boring thing in the world. still, i suggest you take a shot at 2-4 and see if you enjoy it and start making money.
im pretty sure if i just stuck with 2-4 i would make at least 10k/month but naturally i just dump 10s of thousands at limit instead.
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Dave Mac
Chop my finger, Please!
Reged: 02/02/05
Posts: 670
Loc: Like Chester I’m chasin cheese
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also and i may shoot myself in the foot here but i think the key if you want really good games are all the non-holdem games i mean sometimes they suck too but there is a huge difference in the level of play.
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dangerfish
addict
Reged: 12/01/05
Posts: 410
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I think you are panic mode. The games are not that bad. Don't think you need to play live. Use your winnings to build a financial non-poker related foundation. Find fish and don't make excuses for not being able to find them, they are there. You didn't even reallly have a losing stretch, more just a breakeven period and you ran great before that. And finally, start easing your way into NL, I tend to agree that there is more money to be made there in the future and it will not be hard for you to learn.
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milesdyson
Bet, Raise, Pray
Reged: 07/03/04
Posts: 14916
Loc: trying to 363 u
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geormiet i play 3/6 and 5/10 AP way too much if you would like me to review whatever hands ihave on you.
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donger
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 04/23/04
Posts: 2531
Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote:
I think you are panic mode. The games are not that bad. Don't think you need to play live. Use your winnings to build a financial non-poker related foundation. Find fish and don't make excuses for not being able to find them, they are there. You didn't even reallly have a losing stretch, more just a breakeven period and you ran great before that. And finally, start easing your way into NL, I tend to agree that there is more money to be made there in the future and it will not be hard for you to learn.
It would be cool if we could have some sort of discussion forum for us to learn LHE->NLHE as a group. I don't really trust the advice in the SSNL forum and the MSNL forum is mostly over my head
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Victor
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 07/13/03
Posts: 11773
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Quote:
Quote:
I think you are panic mode. The games are not that bad. Don't think you need to play live. Use your winnings to build a financial non-poker related foundation. Find fish and don't make excuses for not being able to find them, they are there. You didn't even reallly have a losing stretch, more just a breakeven period and you ran great before that. And finally, start easing your way into NL, I tend to agree that there is more money to be made there in the future and it will not be hard for you to learn.
It would be cool if we could have some sort of discussion forum for us to learn LHE->NLHE as a group. I don't really trust the advice in the SSNL forum and the MSNL forum is mostly over my head
i hate most of the advice in those forums.
some basics that i think are easy to implement. open a lot in the button and co esp with suited or connected hands. coldcall with pairs. dump offsuite broadways in the blinds.
postflop just play like an absolute nit. tptk = ak unimproved. bet flop, check turn and call or fold river.
also, if we mhushers branched off and learned nl together we would undoubtedly be destroying the games in a few monthes.
if josh helped us that is.
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donger
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 04/23/04
Posts: 2531
Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote:
if josh helped us that is.
Maybe we should pledge a % of our NLHE rakeback to erect a statue in his honor.
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joker122
Attention Whore
Reged: 12/10/03
Posts: 5504
Loc: raising for information again
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lol at the advice in msnl. every opinion conflicts with the one preceeding it so you never know what is "standard."
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DING-DONG YO
Teh mfing DANG-dong
Reged: 02/23/06
Posts: 8122
Loc: ninja modng, bitches, u need 2...
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I hate NL cash, love donkaments but don't have 6-8 hours to devote to them. SNGs are fun, but again, I often don't even have an hour to devote to them.
I quit 2 months ago after some terrible game selection, tilt and extremely bad luck. I said GG poker and probably won't be back until the online landscape is significantly different from today.
Can you still make a buck? Sure.
Is it worth my time to put the effort into pushing these miniscule edges against other at least decent players? Not for me it isn't.
I just don't think it is soft enough to be worth the effort anymore. These tough games are just too stressful and keeping up with the competition is too draining. I have enough stress in my life and didn't need another source of it. Once the games get soft again, I will return. My time is better spent with my family and my career IRL.
OP, why don't you look into some non-poker business ventures or opportunities with your roll like Vegan said?
My .02
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jstill
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 05/01/06
Posts: 3641
Loc: downtown portsmouth
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DDY ive always been curious who u were on wpex, feel like revealing?
to geo, ur obviously a very good player I think u ll be more than fine dont panic yet, altho the sentiment is one we can all relate to at one point in time or antoher(altho obviously uve played longer, higher and with more success than myself). The issue of getting money on/ off sites at this point is seriously intolerable though.
i think adding NL as an option is a very good idea. Dont look at it as starting over, but just another money making option. If u start small at NL100 and work up it ll seem very easy for u im sure (altho boring as u may find it). Its just nice to have more game selection available to u, I know a big problem for me is hoping games are good when I feel like playing and at the stakes id like to play(which is usually weekdays during the day when theyre probably the worst in most occasions). I hardly ever play nights and weekends which is when I should and Im sure its effected my results, but all those times I didnt play becuz the games looked poor at my limits itd be nice to be able to scope out the NL cash games as well. Plus its a smaller variance game than lhe and esp six max lhe, and its easier to play more tables/ get more hands in in less time to reach the long run.
I think the NL forums are much less effective on this site tho as others have mentioned. A NL buddy of mine was complaining about this alot recently. He said the micro forum and ssnl are pretty poor and the good players all post in the microbrew. Ive been trying to learn NL this last month just reading through the NL forums when I run out of limit threads to read but it doesnt feel like im learning much since u never get a handle on what is standard (as donger said).
I have no idea who is credible since everyone seems to have like 2k+ posts, everyone thinks something different and people hardly ever give reasons for their suggested actions in the NL forums it seems, and when I ask questions or why they suggest something I never seem to get an answer and the threads never get many replies since theyre bumped off the first page in a matter of an hour or so. I guess I ll read the new Ed Miller NL book and try to go from there?
funny to think in college I hated limit becuz " u cant protect ur hand, u cant win if they dont fold yadda yeadda otehr things donkeys say" and would only play NL. And hated online becuz I thought there were too many bad players and I could only win if i could make live "reads" about player tells. funny how perspective changes.
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donger
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 04/23/04
Posts: 2531
Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote:
I have no idea who is credible since everyone seems to have like 2k+ posts, everyone thinks something different and people hardly ever give reasons for their suggested actions in the NL forums it seems, and when I ask questions or why they suggest something I never seem to get an answer and the threads never get many replies since theyre bumped off the first page in a matter of an hour or so. I guess I ll read the new Ed Miller NL book and try to go from there?
QFT.
Also, while I'm venting: WTF is with all the BBV idiots who chime in like "LOL LIMIDONK" and "WHY R U RAISING THE MINIMUM EVERY TIME? LOL."
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Neko
addict
Reged: 07/22/05
Posts: 663
Loc: The 17th Floor
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Quote:
Also, while I'm venting: WTF is with all the BBV idiots who chime in like "LOL LIMIDONK" and "WHY R U RAISING THE MINIMUM EVERY TIME? LOL."
That puts me on life tilt too for some reason. I'm sensitive 
I'll just echo what others have said, NL is pretty boring and MSNL is kinda useless, but if you're a competent 6 max limit player, you should be able to pick up NL pretty quickly. Most 2/4 NL games I've played in are pretty soft and there's enough games going that its very easy to get in a couple good ones. As, I think someone else alluded to, it's easier to get more hands in too. I usually only play a maximum of 2 6 max limit tables, but it's pretty easy to play twice as many 6max NL tables.
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yourface
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 09/28/04
Posts: 3457
Loc: Canada
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when I was trying out nl I found that the ssnl forum was almost useless. noone gave any reasoning for their strategy or agreed with eachother. unless it was a "respected" poster of course in which case everyone would agree with that person. a couple memorable replies of people just flat out flaming/mocking me too.
nl is for nits anyways.
edit:
and yah the bbv hate bugs me too. how are the hands I post less interesting than looking at a bunch of set over sets and rivered gutshots from 50NL players.
Edited by yourface (07/10/07 10:00 PM)
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Surf
Getting Barreled
Reged: 04/28/04
Posts: 5619
Loc: Blogging
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Quote:
lol at the advice in msnl. every opinion conflicts with the one preceeding it so you never know what is "standard."
QFT. Half of the advice is terrible, and the other half is good but only from the viewpoint of someone with that person's image.
Surf
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HOWMANY
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 09/04/06
Posts: 4322
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I don't understand the NL forums at all. Half the hands are people wanting to fold the 2nd nut straight or a set to a moderate amount of action. The other half are people trying to stack off with middle or top pair. I sometimes wonder if limit is as confusing to them as NL is to me.
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danzasmack
BBV goonie
Reged: 05/13/05
Posts: 7370
Loc: DYNAMO HARSHBART
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I'm with Neko on pretty much all points
Hopefully they legalize online gambling? Honestly i think all signs point to yes. They just need an excuse to do so and they pretty much it.
Also - consider coaching for NL. I know it seems stupid, getting coached since you are a good player, but if you consider the EV of time played, then i think it's easy $.
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Victor
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 07/13/03
Posts: 11773
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ya get coached or get cardrunners. its far cheaper to see the basics this way than actually going thru experience. paying 200 or whatever cr costs, is worth it just to see all the showdowns. most of us are easily good enough to take advantage.
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dangerfish
addict
Reged: 12/01/05
Posts: 410
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Here are some comments I have on NL. I switched completely to NL last year and have gravitated back to LHE partially because I got shut down on Party, Pokes, and Doyles' where I found the best games.
You can play a ton more games, I mean it's like night and day. Variance is lower but it can get boring and if you have invested a ton of time into LHE it can be overwhelming dealing with new skill sets. Also, you definately don't need to be a nit to beat the games.
P.S how many of you are breaking .50 cents a hand playing no higher than 30-60?
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geormiet
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 07/19/04
Posts: 2237
Loc: San Francisco
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Quote:
geormiet i play 3/6 and 5/10 AP way too much if you would like me to review whatever hands ihave on you.
AIYAAA on ap, dunno if we've played together.
Why the hell are you playing in the game...
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geormiet
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 07/19/04
Posts: 2237
Loc: San Francisco
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Quote:
Here are some comments I have on NL. I switched completely to NL last year and have gravitated back to LHE partially because I got shut down on Party, Pokes, and Doyles' where I found the best games.
You can play a ton more games, I mean it's like night and day. Variance is lower but it can get boring and if you have invested a ton of time into LHE it can be overwhelming dealing with new skill sets. Also, you definately don't need to be a nit to beat the games.
P.S how many of you are breaking .50 cents a hand playing no higher than 30-60?
One of the reasons i hate NL is because I feel lost. I don't mind losing much if I can see the sklansky bucks rolling in, like in a good limit game where i'm just running bad. if I'm losing and I don't know wtf is going on, then I just feel like I'm spewing.
e.g.
I raise AA hj, loose passive bb calls. flop J97, he check calls a pot bet. Turn is a 9 and it goes check check. Riv is a blank and he overbets the pot by about 50%. i didn't even consider folding - should I?
i was clearing .50/hand for 2006 at 20/40, but i don't think i am this year.
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donger
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 04/23/04
Posts: 2531
Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote:
ya get coached or get cardrunners. its far cheaper to see the basics this way than actually going thru experience. paying 200 or whatever cr costs, is worth it just to see all the showdowns. most of us are easily good enough to take advantage.
How good are the stox NL videos? I have a membership, but I've always just watched the LHE stuff.
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geormiet
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 07/19/04
Posts: 2237
Loc: San Francisco
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Quote:
Also, while I'm venting: WTF is with all the BBV idiots who chime in like "LOL LIMIDONK" and "WHY R U RAISING THE MINIMUM EVERY TIME? LOL."
man i agree with this.
I used to be proud of my poker abilities. now I feel like what I do anyone can do, and if i really knew how to play I'd be playing NL.
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Enon
BRAAAA Raise the turn
Reged: 01/02/04
Posts: 1056
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I guarantee your game will improve if you start focusing on your other interests more instead of falling into the trap of playing a ton of hands to compensate for bad results. If you focus on being a healthier, happier person by getting more sleep and excercise, seeing friends etc you will find that you will be sharper at the poker table.
It is true though that games are worse and many people on here are just going to have to deal with the reality that they just aren't that good at poker and should move on to healthier jobs. I still do pretty well at poker but now that I finally got my b.a. and have time on my hands, I know for certain that I need the structure and personal interaction that other real jobs have. For me it would be optimal to hold down a full time job with decent salary and benefits and only play 10-20 hours a week on top of that.
Also, being a poker player gives us a tremendous opportunity to give back to our communities. I've always told friends over the past few years how fortunate I am to have such a flexible and lucrative source of income that frees me up to do whatever else I want to do. I'm finally done with school and about to get involved with some unique programs that teach people about nutrition and cooking skills. Many of the kids on here don't realize the tremendous opportunity this is for them to explore other things that are cool about living besides making money and buying cool [censored].
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case3
stranger
Reged: 07/11/07
Posts: 11
Loc: transpacific
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I read your post and my situation seems a lot like yours..
I started playing limit full time beginning this year, with almost all my action on WPEX. Things were going fine until May when I took an 8k loss after rakeback playing 10/20 -20/40. Then June comes and the action has all but dried up.
Sometimes I play live but the good limit games are an hour's drive away and charge $18 an hour for time. I worry that playing live could leave me with easy 4 month losing streaks, just like a bad week online playing 15k hands.
So I've started a FT account and am playing small stakes NL. I was always the last hold out among my friends in sticking with limit. I couldn't stand playing NL, but the more I play the more I think it is something I will enjoy. I'm nowhere near as comfortable in my play as in limit yet things are going OK. My variance is much lower and the rake is less of a factor.
My goal is to move up to comparable NL games within 2 months. I've read Sklansky/Miller NL, watched most of the Stoxpoker videos and read all the stickies on strategy in SSNL. Still, I think most of the improvement in my game is coming from playing a lot of hands and thinking about what is working and what isn't.
Starting over is never going to be fun but I think it is your best bet. My feeling is that if I had started out playing NL I would be with all the others who just can't understand why anyone would play limit.
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Jigsaws
rock and roll pancake
Reged: 06/06/06
Posts: 3768
Loc: pumalicious
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Quote:
I don't understand the NL forums at all. Half the hands are people wanting to fold the 2nd nut straight or a set to a moderate amount of action. The other half are people trying to stack off with middle or top pair. I sometimes wonder if limit is as confusing to them as NL is to me.
Yes... yes, it is. I really have no clue as to where I'm at in a hand in limit. I watch a limit vid on CR and Schneids says 'okay, so I'm going to have to call down here'. Oh, okay. Wait, what, why? Then try 2/4 6max limit and get crushed. Then again, I've played >500k hands of NL and less than 10k of LHE, so that's to be expected.
The big problem with SSNL is the volume. It burns out the regulars. I can't be bothered to respond to a lot of hands because the answer is completely obvious to me. If I do respond it's often going to be one or two lines. The response will be correct, but you'll have to figure the rest out for yourself. To be honest, I don't think that's terrible. Some one-liners from good posters really helped me out in my game.
The first thing I'd do if you're beginning in SSNL is read the sticky and all of the Pooh-Bah posts linked in there. It really is an incredible resource. It even has a Switching to NL from LHE post.
After that start reading and responding to hand posts. Write out what you'd do, why you'd do it and how sure you are the advice you're giving is right. It's fine to give a wrong answer - someone will challenge you and you'll learn something new. Then post a hand you're not sure about, don your asbestos suit and prepare for your mistakes to be flamed down.
Some long-time good posters in SSNL off the top of my head: all the mods, aislephive, carrotsnake, bilbo-san, cbloom, thac, keyser, fly, gimmetheloot, caterp, 2paul2, clayton, jamougha, carnivalhobo, jay riall, istrong, mossberg. The MSNL guys that come down every once in a while give very good advice: Big_Jim & MYNAMEIZGREG, for example. And me, obviously.
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bugstud
Autodraft Expert
Reged: 01/14/03
Posts: 10151
Loc: HEISMAN!
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screw the future, seriously. Completely impossible to predict with any kinda of certainty.
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jstill
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 05/01/06
Posts: 3641
Loc: downtown portsmouth
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Quote:
I used to be proud of my poker abilities. now I feel like what I do anyone can do, and if i really knew how to play I'd be playing NL.
come on dude, this is just silly. U know how many players never get past the micros, and then how many never get past small stakes, and then how many never get past mid-stakes 10/20 20/40
u should be very proud of ur poker ability, and if nothing else the time u spent playing and learning this game will be with u forever and chances are u can go to any casino sit at a table and likely be one of the 2 best players at the table if not the best. U can always make money at poker now for the rest of ur life, even if u do pursue other main avenues of employment later in the future.
just to be where ur at and made as much as uve made in the last 3 years probably puts you in the top 5% of players out there just on the internet atleast (thats pretty conservative id say since only like <10% of players even win money), when u think regular poker players world wide total then its more like ur in the top 1%.
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danzasmack
BBV goonie
Reged: 05/13/05
Posts: 7370
Loc: DYNAMO HARSHBART
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Quote:
Quote:
Also, while I'm venting: WTF is with all the BBV idiots who chime in like "LOL LIMIDONK" and "WHY R U RAISING THE MINIMUM EVERY TIME? LOL."
man i agree with this.
I used to be proud of my poker abilities. now I feel like what I do anyone can do, and if i really knew how to play I'd be playing NL.
This sounds like your biggest problem. People are terrible at LHE. Terrible.
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DeathDonkey
runs better than he plays
Reged: 02/24/04
Posts: 6426
Loc: DeucesCracked - Serious Game
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Good post Jigsaws.
re: NL vs limit players: both suck at the other game and think their game is the best. That said, I do feel that limit players are more likely to say "I just don't understand NL" whereas NL players say "limit is retarded" making them closeminded elitist limitfishes.
-DeathDonkey
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Victor
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 07/13/03
Posts: 11773
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Quote:
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ya get coached or get cardrunners. its far cheaper to see the basics this way than actually going thru experience. paying 200 or whatever cr costs, is worth it just to see all the showdowns. most of us are easily good enough to take advantage.
How good are the stox NL videos? I have a membership, but I've always just watched the LHE stuff.
i think they are very good. probably even more helpful than cr. the difference is that taylor often says, "i feel he is weak (or strong)" for his reasoning. stox does a better job actually explaining imo.
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secretprankster
banned
Reged: 05/22/07
Posts: 869
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I haven't played NL online in over two years but I love the NL vids on CR. Well worth it IMO even if you're not heading down the path. And Schneids is fun to watch.
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mastin1
member
Reged: 02/06/07
Posts: 132
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FWIW: I still hate playing against you.
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donger
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 04/23/04
Posts: 2531
Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote:
Good post Jigsaws.
re: NL vs limit players: both suck at the other game and think their game is the best. That said, I do feel that limit players are more likely to say "I just don't understand NL" whereas NL players say "limit is retarded" making them closeminded elitist limitfishes.
-DeathDonkey
QFT.. no regularly spread poker game is retarded. The whole "OMG REAL POKER!! ALL IN!!" mentality kills me. It's usually the overall least knowledgeable peeps too; If they really understood, they wouldn't hate.
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Gildwulf
BBV4LIFE
Reged: 05/05/05
Posts: 20307
Loc: Blogging
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g et al,
I'll add my personal experience to the mix as a HU limit specialist turned to NL after much arm-twisting.
I started playing serious amounts of HU on FTP once I discovered the games this January. Made some great money in the first couple of months playing 8/16-30/60, mostly at 10/20. Over the last few months, the word has gotten out and the games have basically gone to [censored]. In all honesty, I've also plateaued in my ability as a limit player and don't really know where to go. I broke even at limit playing 20k hands in April and 15k-ish hands in May. I asked half a dozen other HU specialists for coaching but most refused because I have too many hands of HU or they don't want to give away any secrets because they play in the same games and don't want to see me at 30/60.
I've just gotten fed up basically and moved over to a lesser known site to 4-6 sixtable 1/2-3/6 NL and it is fantastic. Now I just play HU when I only have time for a short session and it's more fun that way.
There are better games at NL online and that's just a sad fact we all have to face. Adapt or perish.
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MarkD
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 01/02/03
Posts: 3396
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F U ALL. The games are great and there is a ton of money to be made.
- I have to say this because I am planning on quitting my crappy 70k a year job to try playing cards for a few months to see if I like it. So stop telling me the games are bad - that is not what I want to hear. 
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Grisgra
Calling you down with K-high.
Reged: 08/17/04
Posts: 4504
Loc: Crying bloody tears at 20/40
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Quote:
F U ALL. The games are great and there is a ton of money to be made.
- I have to say this because I am planning on quitting my crappy 70k a year job to try playing cards for a few months to see if I like it. So stop telling me the games are bad - that is not what I want to hear.
I was planning on quitting my crappy 130k a year job to do the same, so I'm with MarkD. Hush up.
Oh, wait. Um, I mean, the games are HORRIBLE right now. 0.5BB/100 if you're LUCKY. You should really move to NL immediately. Shoo!
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danzasmack
BBV goonie
Reged: 05/13/05
Posts: 7370
Loc: DYNAMO HARSHBART
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what are the hours in your job? is it not possible to do both?
i have a crappy job and play poker...
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Grisgra
Calling you down with K-high.
Reged: 08/17/04
Posts: 4504
Loc: Crying bloody tears at 20/40
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Quote:
what are the hours in your job? is it not possible to do both?
i have a crappy job and play poker...
I've done both for the last couple of years and it's tough to take your $60/hour job seriously when you make 3-4 times as much an hour sitting in your pajamas laughing at people for calling you down with K-high/calling people down with K-high because obviously they're on a busted draw. Last year I made as much as I made at my job, playing 20 hrs/week, and this year I'm on pace to make considerably more, again, if I just play 20 hrs/week.
Seems to me that limit may well be dry in 1-3 years, and I should strike while the iron is hot. But I just can't put in more than 20 hours/week when working full time. And I think I could make the NL transition if I needed to down the line.
By the way, for what it's worth, this was me, and it's been a year, and I'm where I thought I would be.
http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/2339301/page/176#Post2339301
Other by-the-way -- after 500k hands or so in the last 2.5 years -- admittedly, not all of it at 20/40'ish limits -- I'm pretty sure I'm a reasonably winning player, and that if the poker environment stayed exactly as it is, I'd have no problem keeping up.
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MarkD
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 01/02/03
Posts: 3396
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My hours are about 35-40 / week + 10 hours of commute time, except for periods where I go out into the middle of no where to work on a gas plant or oil battery startup and then I work probably 100+ hours a week (7 days a week) for about 2 to 3 weeks straight. After a few days of this my personality changes and I begin to get really grumpy and hate all things around me. I think I may experience anxiety attacks and basically the next 10+ days I am on site I hate my life. So although these field trips don't happen very often, they are excrutiating for me. I just recently got back from one. It was 15 days straight of 14+ hours a day (some 20) and when I got back I spent 2 days basically vegging and then went camping and then started it again for 4 more days.
Also, my office job is really boring. It's pretty much months of preparation (writing a program) for these stupid gas plants.
During a normal week when I'm in the office I may play 10-20 hours of poker. A lot of nights I come home and just really have no desire to play since I just stared at a computer for 9 hours. Then I worry about not playing because I'm made up my mind that I need to put in more hours to get more money so I can quit my job. This just becomes a viscous circle of me feeling like I should play more but not being able to because of lack of desire due to work as well as having a girlfriend and wanting to do things with her adn family.
On a good weekend I might play 5 hours of poker because I'm busy and or relaxing. I don't know, maybe it's just my personality, but I feel as if I require a fair bit of down time from work and playing cards on the net is not really downtime as it requires a high level of concentration to play well (for me).
Therefor, I could do both, but I would rather not and if poker didn't work out I would likely try to get a different engineering job and if that didn't work out I could pretty easily get a job doing what I do now (and continue to hate it).
I don't know. I may just be a winy bitch, but I've kind of made it a goal to try playing as a pro and experience that lifestyle and then make an informed decision as to whether or not it's for me. Basically put my career on hold for six months and figure it out. My career is going the wrong direction for me anyways and I'm having a difficult time changing it so [censored] it.
Boy, I just wrote way more than I wanted to but now don't want ot delete it so I'll post.
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joker122
Attention Whore
Reged: 12/10/03
Posts: 5504
Loc: raising for information again
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update: played 2k hands of 3/6 nl yesterday at 16bb/100 and folded qq preflop once.
prodigy?
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joker122
Attention Whore
Reged: 12/10/03
Posts: 5504
Loc: raising for information again
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Quote:
i have a crappy job
why?
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MarkD
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 01/02/03
Posts: 3396
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Grisga,
I don't have nearly the poker results you do nor the number of hands but I "feel" as if my game is good enough to make money anyways so want to find out. I broke even last year for 100k hands and hand may session reviews and coaching sessions and never had anyone find anything significant (minor minor tweaks in various situations).
So I'm going into this without much hard evidence that I can make big bucks doing it. 100k hands per year is a lot for me in my current working situation but I am sure I could play much more than that going pro and really just want to "find out". I think it will be a major quality of life improvement if nothing else.
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Grisgra
Calling you down with K-high.
Reged: 08/17/04
Posts: 4504
Loc: Crying bloody tears at 20/40
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Quote:
Grisga,
I don't have nearly the poker results you do nor the number of hands but I "feel" as if my game is good enough to make money anyways so want to find out. I broke even last year for 100k hands and hand may session reviews and coaching sessions and never had anyone find anything significant (minor minor tweaks in various situations).
So I'm going into this without much hard evidence that I can make big bucks doing it. 100k hands per year is a lot for me in my current working situation but I am sure I could play much more than that going pro and really just want to "find out". I think it will be a major quality of life improvement if nothing else.
Just remember that while you'll be getting rid of a lot of your current problems (like those 100-hour work weeks), you'll be replacing them with a bunch unless you've got a huge nest egg. You can use COBRA for insurance, for awhile, but what happens if you break even your first two months? Are you going to be able to handle that, mentally? Can you find a new job without many problems? Do you have a good support network in place if you *don't* have a big nest egg built up?
Keep that in mind . . . a bunch of things you don't give a second thought to now may rise to the level of Big-Ass-Concern if you decide you want to play cards for money, and don't have much to go by but "feel".
I've got a nest egg of 200k+, bankroll of 50k+, a Ph.D., and while it would be tough for me to find another job in my field, I could afford to take a year off and get some more training, so my worst-case scenario isn't that bad . . . I don't know whether that's true for you, though. Seems kinda risky.
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jstill
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 05/01/06
Posts: 3641
Loc: downtown portsmouth
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anyone thinking about quitting a job, poker is way harder to put in as many hours and way less fun when its ur sole source of income even when u have money saved up for all your expenses for months in advanced. It hangs over your head and you always think about it, so unless you have a 2k bb roll for the limit you want to play (and dont care about moving up) and like 4 months set aside for all your expenses in advanced dont think about it (and if you do why didnt u quit sooner haha).
I play less hours of poker now then i did when i had a fulltime job. Plus the games online generally suck during the daytime weekday hours when ur at work anyways.
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danzasmack
BBV goonie
Reged: 05/13/05
Posts: 7370
Loc: DYNAMO HARSHBART
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so i can get a good one after this one? This is my 1st job out of college. I took it because I would have time to go to school and time to play poker (i am not in school currently, so poker for now).
Basically i'm deciding between trying to go to school again full time (while playing poker), getting a new job (one with hours that probably wouldn't let me play any poker), 'quitting' poker for part time grad school.
Yeah, there's a lot of money in poker, but there are other ways to make a lot lot of money and i think i'm good at those things. I just really have no idea what i want to do.
And my job isn't 'crappy' like no good for my resume or anything, just quoting.
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danzasmack
BBV goonie
Reged: 05/13/05
Posts: 7370
Loc: DYNAMO HARSHBART
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Just to clarify though I am all for going pro.
Just my parents paid for what I didn't get in scholarships and it would break my mother's heart if I quit my job to be a poker player.
You could counter this by saying "why doesn't she just want you to do what you want to do" but tbh i have absolutely no idea what I want to do with my life.
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Grisgra
Calling you down with K-high.
Reged: 08/17/04
Posts: 4504
Loc: Crying bloody tears at 20/40
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Quote:
and like 4 months set aside for all your expenses in advanced dont think about it (and if you do why didnt u quit sooner haha).
Exactly . And I'd find it so easy to play 30 hours+ a week without the job. All I think about at work is how I could be playing poker right now, anyway. Or studying it. I could be spending this time learning NL for pete's sake . . .
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DING-DONG YO
Teh mfing DANG-dong
Reged: 02/23/06
Posts: 8122
Loc: ninja modng, bitches, u need 2...
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Did I mention how great life has been since I quit playing? I'm not sure you realize how much stress it creates until you quit for a while.
But that's just my experience, everyone is different.
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MarkD
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 01/02/03
Posts: 3396
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Quote:
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Grisga,
I don't have nearly the poker results you do nor the number of hands but I "feel" as if my game is good enough to make money anyways so want to find out. I broke even last year for 100k hands and hand may session reviews and coaching sessions and never had anyone find anything significant (minor minor tweaks in various situations).
So I'm going into this without much hard evidence that I can make big bucks doing it. 100k hands per year is a lot for me in my current working situation but I am sure I could play much more than that going pro and really just want to "find out". I think it will be a major quality of life improvement if nothing else.
Just remember that while you'll be getting rid of a lot of your current problems (like those 100-hour work weeks), you'll be replacing them with a bunch unless you've got a huge nest egg. You can use COBRA for insurance, for awhile, but what happens if you break even your first two months? Are you going to be able to handle that, mentally? Can you find a new job without many problems? Do you have a good support network in place if you *don't* have a big nest egg built up?
Keep that in mind . . . a bunch of things you don't give a second thought to now may rise to the level of Big-Ass-Concern if you decide you want to play cards for money, and don't have much to go by but "feel".
I've got a nest egg of 200k+, bankroll of 50k+, a Ph.D., and while it would be tough for me to find another job in my field, I could afford to take a year off and get some more training, so my worst-case scenario isn't that bad . . . I don't know whether that's true for you, though. Seems kinda risky.
It is a little risky, but I've thought a lot about it. My bankroll will be 20k+ with another 20-25k of living expenses, which is a little over 6 months for me. I live in Canada so things like insurance are not really a concern.
I'm not sure if I can handle breaking even for 2 months as a pro. I've done it now. I won't know until I'm doing it and hopefully the worst is behind me. And although it's mainly feel, I am winning this year and have won in the past and overall my winrate per hour is like 2x my current salary. It's just that 100k hands took a year for me to play and that's [censored] with me a little mentally and I'm not going to say my winrate is x because the games have changed a lot since 1+ years ago.
As far as getting a job. I could quit my current one tomorrow and get another job next week doing the same thing with zero problem. I wouldn't like it but I could do it. The only problem with a new job for me would be finding a new one that paid similar to what I make now in a slightly different field so that I might enjoy that. But, I have that exact problem right now if I continue to work because I feel like this job is at an end for me no matter what I decide to do with poker. I can't continue with this job so would quite to try something different regardless. It's just that I think I'll try poker next. I have a degree in electrical engineering and my professional designation so it's not like I'm without skills outside of poker.
Gris, your concerns are totally spot on for me and I may end up the busto wannabe pro but I would rather try and fail then never have tried. In five months I could get a job if it doesn't work out. I'm glad that you are questioning my situation though.
And, I may never get the nerve to do this at all. I've been thinking about it for a long time. It's just that I've finally finished most of my other personal goals and am really close to making the leap - just a few more weeks / months and I will have the financial cushion I am comfortable with and be finished my holidays and some projects arond the house and then it will be the time. For me, 6 months + 1000-1200 bets is enough cushion. I already have 200K+ equity in my home so maybe that's considered a nestegg?
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geormiet
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 07/19/04
Posts: 2237
Loc: San Francisco
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good post jigsaws, its nice to hear the perspective from a NL player.
I'm glad I started this thread. i haven't been playing much these past few weeks, but I think mentally I am ready to get back to work. here's my plan:
I'm moving to a new site which should have better limit action, and I'll play 15/30 and below for a while. in addition to that, i'll try to get a regular does of ssnl, I guess at stars .10/.25 (i only have $300 at stars) unless I get around to putting more money in. I'll watch the stox videos to start with.
Then i guess on top of that I'll try to play live maybe twice a week. The games at bay101 are seriously mind blowing. Last night when I was there there were more 8 way pots (i.e. everyone but me seeing a flop) than I could count on 2 hands. there were also plenty of 6 way capped pots and the like. just crazy. The 100/200 game didn't seem to be all that bad either, but it looks like a big dropoff from the 40/80. i don't think I'd be happy weathering the swings of 100/200 though, even in a great game. losing 5k in a day makes me unhappy. Losing 15k would make me not want to play poker for a month.
With the $5drop i think i can probably beat the 40 game there for tons, like 3bb/100. Seriously, i looked around the table last night and i realized: I would consider EVERY SINGLE PLAYER there to be a SIGNIFICANT fish if i saw them online. To the poster who said he's worried about 4 monthbreakeven streaks live because he's had 5 digit breakeven streaks online - its not the same. Your win rate live will be way wway wya higher than that of online.
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MarkD
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 01/02/03
Posts: 3396
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Quote:
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and like 4 months set aside for all your expenses in advanced dont think about it (and if you do why didnt u quit sooner haha).
Exactly . And I'd find it so easy to play 30 hours+ a week without the job. All I think about at work is how I could be playing poker right now, anyway. Or studying it. I could be spending this time learning NL for pete's sake . . .
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geormiet
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 07/19/04
Posts: 2237
Loc: San Francisco
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if you guys can get back into your job easily after stopping for a few years then i think your plan is ok.
otherwise I think it's a terrible idea. I'm serious, you won't play more poker because you have more free time. You'll just become lazier overall.
I spent a short time only doing poker, it was awful. i learned I always need another activity (right now its culinary school) to keep balance in my life.
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MarkD
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 01/02/03
Posts: 3396
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Quote:
Did I mention how great life has been since I quit playing? I'm not sure you realize how much stress it creates until you quit for a while.
But that's just my experience, everyone is different.
Are jobs not stressful? Everything has certain degrees of stress. And for every person like you there is another like victor who has enjoyed being a pro (except for the variance). It's not like I (or Grisga) haven't been on these boards for years and seen all of the horror stories (and good stories). I know I'm not going into this with blinders on thinking it will be a total utopia.
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Grisgra
Calling you down with K-high.
Reged: 08/17/04
Posts: 4504
Loc: Crying bloody tears at 20/40
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Quote:
Did I mention how great life has been since I quit playing? I'm not sure you realize how much stress it creates until you quit for a while.
But that's just my experience, everyone is different.
The [censored]-eating grin on my face contemplating the six-figures I've made this year sitting in my pajamas playing poker for 3 hours a day is, surprisingly, not stressful in the least. Admittedly, there have been some stressful days, weeks, even one bad month, but these days that's pretty much past me. Dropped 10k in one night a week ago, shook it out, slept like a baby. (You know, woke up every two hours and bawled my eyes out! I keed, I keed.)
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Grisgra
Calling you down with K-high.
Reged: 08/17/04
Posts: 4504
Loc: Crying bloody tears at 20/40
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If you could get a job next week doing the same thing with zero problem, and you don't have to worry about health insurance, and you've got a few months of living expenses built up (NOT including your bankroll), then [censored] it, go for it. You're not dropping out of college, you're not leaving a job that you would find difficult to replace, you're not jeopardizing the your health or the health of your family. Knock yourself out! 
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MarkD
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 01/02/03
Posts: 3396
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Quote:
if you guys can get back into your job easily after stopping for a few years then i think your plan is ok.
otherwise I think it's a terrible idea. I'm serious, you won't play more poker because you have more free time. You'll just become lazier overall.
I spent a short time only doing poker, it was awful. i learned I always need another activity (right now its culinary school) to keep balance in my life.
It's really tough for you to comment on this without having work experience to compare it to. For me, this may become a simple transitionary period (months, rather than years) or I may find out that I'm like Joe Tall and this makes perfect sense for my personality.
Hope I didn't derail your thread though. I usually try not to post in these threads because I didn't want to reveal my situation and plan openly and now that I have kind of wish I hadn't.
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DING-DONG YO
Teh mfing DANG-dong
Reged: 02/23/06
Posts: 8122
Loc: ninja modng, bitches, u need 2...
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Yes, Grisga, I know only tooooo well. 
To clarify, my job is fairly stressful although I am on a great career path and enjoy it very much.
My point was that I already have a fair amount of stress with the new job that I actually care about plus a new baby and poker was creating added stress. And the stress poker was adding was not worth the benefit I was getting from it.
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geormiet
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 07/19/04
Posts: 2237
Loc: San Francisco
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Yeah, actually, you are right. Not ever having worked a full time job for longer than a summer does not really give me perspective to dish out that kind of advice.
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MarkD
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 01/02/03
Posts: 3396
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Quote:
If you could get a job next week doing the same thing with zero problem, and you don't have to worry about health insurance, and you've got a few months of living expenses built up (NOT including your bankroll), then [censored] it, go for it. You're not dropping out of college, you're not leaving a job that you would find difficult to replace, you're not jeopardizing the your health or the health of your family. Knock yourself out!
Now your talking!!!
Seriously, what you describe is basically my situation. I will have a bankroll + living expenses (seperate) and will be willing to go back to work when living expense -> 0 or if bankroll->0 so I should have either a bankroll or living expenses at all times. I also do not have a family atm so if I fail it's only myself that I'm failing.
I'm not really messing up my career even if poker doesnt work out for me.
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MarkD
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 01/02/03
Posts: 3396
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Quote:
Yeah, actually, you are right. Not ever having worked a full time job for longer than a summer does not really give me perspective to dish out that kind of advice.
I'm not entirely sure if you are being sarcastic or not, but want to be clear that when I said that I was not trying to be a dick and want to apologize if it came across that way.
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Grisgra
Calling you down with K-high.
Reged: 08/17/04
Posts: 4504
Loc: Crying bloody tears at 20/40
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Quote:
if you guys can get back into your job easily after stopping for a few years then i think your plan is ok.
otherwise I think it's a terrible idea. I'm serious, you won't play more poker because you have more free time. You'll just become lazier overall.
I spent a short time only doing poker, it was awful. i learned I always need another activity (right now its culinary school) to keep balance in my life.
I think that's an excellent idea and one I've thought about -- what do I do when I'm not playing poker? With my full-time job and side-poker-job, I don't have a great deal of free time . . . but I will once I quit. I know I need to avoid the trap of becoming pajama-poker-guy and doing nothing except watching TV/surfing the web/playing poker.
My situation is a bit different and scarier than MarkD's. I'm making more money than he is, I'm on an obvious career path (well, kinda at the end of it unless I spend a lot more time making a name for myself), and in some ways I'd be throwing away 10 years of grad school + my Ph.D. if I quit. And if poker doesn't work out, re-entering the job market in a job as suited to my skills as this one is would be a little tough, frankly.
But I wouldn't have to rush it, and I'm hoping I won't need to do that anyway. And while it would be tough, I'd find something. I'm a statistician that speaks English, for pete's sake .
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geormiet
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 07/19/04
Posts: 2237
Loc: San Francisco
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Quote:
Quote:
Yeah, actually, you are right. Not ever having worked a full time job for longer than a summer does not really give me perspective to dish out that kind of advice.
I'm not entirely sure if you are being sarcastic or not, but want to be clear that when I said that I was not trying to be a dick and want to apologize if it came across that way.
lol, this is sad. 2p2 is a harsh place. no, i was not being sarcastic. no you did not come off as a dick.
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Grisgra
Calling you down with K-high.
Reged: 08/17/04
Posts: 4504
Loc: Crying bloody tears at 20/40
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Quote:
Quote:
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Yeah, actually, you are right. Not ever having worked a full time job for longer than a summer does not really give me perspective to dish out that kind of advice.
I'm not entirely sure if you are being sarcastic or not, but want to be clear that when I said that I was not trying to be a dick and want to apologize if it came across that way.
lol, this is sad. 2p2 is a harsh place. no, i was not being sarcastic. no you did not come off as a dick.
What's with the [censored] attitude?
I'm not nearly as amusing as I think I am, eh?
Calm the [censored] down.
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geormiet
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 07/19/04
Posts: 2237
Loc: San Francisco
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jesus christ effing limidonks flinging poo where is that damn picture of the monkeys
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milesdyson
Bet, Raise, Pray
Reged: 07/03/04
Posts: 14916
Loc: trying to 363 u
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since i quit my job in march, i have had some anxiety in the bedroom.
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Grisgra
Calling you down with K-high.
Reged: 08/17/04
Posts: 4504
Loc: Crying bloody tears at 20/40
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Quote:
since i quit my job in march, i have had some anxiety in the bedroom.
Go back to using your right hand.
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geormiet
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 07/19/04
Posts: 2237
Loc: San Francisco
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Were you the one that used to be a civil engineer? i was gonna be a civil engineer...but poker stepped in before i had to find a job.
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milesdyson
Bet, Raise, Pray
Reged: 07/03/04
Posts: 14916
Loc: trying to 363 u
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grisgra,
that makes it worse.
geormiet,
was structural engineering, which is technically a branch of civil engineering. monotonous as hell, too. general civil is probably better, and i might get into that later in life.
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DING-DONG YO
Teh mfing DANG-dong
Reged: 02/23/06
Posts: 8122
Loc: ninja modng, bitches, u need 2...
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ZOMG, BET MORE ON TEH TURN!!!
BUT U CAN'T, LOL LIMIDONKS!!!!
Someone link gherig's "I'm so dirty" BBV thread if you want to see NLimidonks confused.
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Grisgra
Calling you down with K-high.
Reged: 08/17/04
Posts: 4504
Loc: Crying bloody tears at 20/40
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Quote:
grisgra,
that makes it worse.
Not much I can do for you then . . . that wouldn't cost you at least $50.
By the way, love your "location". More than once an opponent has typed into the chat box that I just seem to raise and pray. They're right, of course. It may be bad, but it makes Shania my bitch. Good times, good times.
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admiralfluff
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 01/03/05
Posts: 1742
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I don't know if I really have the right to complain, but,
I have an awesome job/career that is extremely challenging, and requires about 50-60 hours a week. I also play 25-35 hrs/week. 16 hour days lol.
My plan is to keep it up for 8.6 more months, at which point I should be finished remodelling my hot new pad, finished with my current project at work, and have some money in the bank (i'm a buy you a drank).
After that I'm taking a 4 month sabbatical, and I might just say goodbye to limit holdem.
9 more months limit he. You can do it.
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joker122
Attention Whore
Reged: 12/10/03
Posts: 5504
Loc: raising for information again
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Quote:
ZOMG, BET MORE ON TEH TURN!!!
BUT U CAN'T, LOL LIMIDONKS!!!!
Someone link gherig's "I'm so dirty" BBV thread if you want to see NLimidonks confused.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showth...ue#Post10767021
the link is my post.
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dangerfish
addict
Reged: 12/01/05
Posts: 410
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This is coming from someone who has never had a real job and doesn't want one. Poker is a sick way to make a living. Maybe I am being optimistic but there are so many perks to having this job it's a joke. The only real downside I see is the stress created by running bad but if you are conservative and usually play games surrounded by fish you can eliminate a good deal of that. The main question I would ask anyone who is thinking of doing it fulltime is how do you deal with the day to day bad beats and how good are you? If your not that great and a total stressbox then pass. Otherwise, I can't invision too many better jobs.
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geormiet
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 07/19/04
Posts: 2237
Loc: San Francisco
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My problem with poker is not knowing if i will still be able to do it in 5 years, and that if I can't, the fact that it is not marketable in any other field.
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admiralfluff
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 01/03/05
Posts: 1742
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Quote:
I can't invision too many better jobs.
wow. Some of the culture and content around boker is interesting, but day in-day out we generate no productive output. It's a simple, silly little game. We contribute basically nothing, don't help anyone but ourselves, aid funnelling money to foreign economies...
Leaving the monetary advantage aside, I can't imagine any skilled-labor job, at which I could be self employed, that is worse than poker.
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MacGuyV
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 01/19/05
Posts: 10100
Loc: old school
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Quote:
i have a crappy job and play poker...
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donger
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 04/23/04
Posts: 2531
Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote:
My problem with poker is not knowing if i will still be able to do it in 5 years, and that if I can't, the fact that it is not marketable in any other field.
This is seriously my biggest worry. I have linguistics and german BAs and see myself screaming "VENTI NONFAT CARMEL FRAPP" in my mid 30s. My vision also includes somebody in a starbucks apron screaming when they find my corpse dangling in the stockroom.
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donger
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 04/23/04
Posts: 2531
Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote:
I can't imagine any skilled-labor job, at which I could be self employed, that is worse than poker.
Promoting internet porn FTW
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The Funky Llama
overflowing with funk
Reged: 02/19/04
Posts: 4209
Loc: RIP James Brown
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its kind of sad but I think NL is the way to go. All the guys I know that made the switch have nothing but good things to say about NL and the lack of variance compared to limit. Seems like they are all winning a good amount. The variance in Limit just makes a grown many cry. Ive had enough of it.
I am going to start playing some NL and will probably start trying to learn by playing some low-mid stakes.
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donger
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 04/23/04
Posts: 2531
Loc: Portland, OR
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We seriously need a subforum for this stuff. It would be cool to learn THE CADDILAC OF POKER!!! (ZOMG CADILLAC!) together.
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Joe Tall
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 04/11/03
Posts: 10220
Loc: Deucescracked - Serious Game
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Hold'em is dying. Everyone knows how to play hold'em. The fish are gone from online games. Limit has been first, NL will follow. Learn Stud, O8, Stud8 and other games, that's where the money is at online.
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Grisgra
Calling you down with K-high.
Reged: 08/17/04
Posts: 4504
Loc: Crying bloody tears at 20/40
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Quote:
Hold'em is dying. Everyone knows how to play hold'em. The fish are gone from online games. Limit has been first, NL will follow. Learn Stud, O8, Stud8 and other games, that's where the money is at online.
I agree. Shoo!
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TheWunderkind
veteran
Reged: 01/01/07
Posts: 1492
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at non US sites there are still very good games, just hope onlinepoker gets legalized again in the USA and you will be fine. If youre an US pro iam pretty sure you would be better of learning some other games, ill do it too but i might have more time until the games get that bad at non US sites if at all.
good luck
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dangerfish
addict
Reged: 12/01/05
Posts: 410
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Pretty negative outlook on the game. Poker for me is a means to an end. I have all the free time I want to do whatever I want. I can live wherever I want and I make 3x the amount I would get paid to do something that I would hate. As far as contributing to society you can use your extra time and money to do that. Go work a real job 40 hours a week for 60k a year and come back and see how you like poker.
Quote:
Quote:
I can't invision too many better jobs.
wow. Some of the culture and content around boker is interesting, but day in-day out we generate no productive output. It's a simple, silly little game. We contribute basically nothing, don't help anyone but ourselves, aid funnelling money to foreign economies...
Leaving the monetary advantage aside, I can't imagine any skilled-labor job, at which I could be self employed, that is worse than poker.
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donger
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 04/23/04
Posts: 2531
Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote:
Pretty negative outlook on the game. Poker for me is a means to an end. I have all the free time I want to do whatever I want. I can live wherever I want and I make 3x the amount I would get paid to do something that I would hate. As far as contributing to society you can use your extra time and money to do that. Go work a real job 40 hours a week for 60k a year and come back and see how you like poker.
Quote:
Quote:
I can't invision too many better jobs.
wow. Some of the culture and content around boker is interesting, but day in-day out we generate no productive output. It's a simple, silly little game. We contribute basically nothing, don't help anyone but ourselves, aid funnelling money to foreign economies...
Leaving the monetary advantage aside, I can't imagine any skilled-labor job, at which I could be self employed, that is worse than poker.
Also, most real jobs don't contribute to society, besides putting your boss's kids through college.
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DING-DONG YO
Teh mfing DANG-dong
Reged: 02/23/06
Posts: 8122
Loc: ninja modng, bitches, u need 2...
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Quote:
Quote:
Pretty negative outlook on the game. Poker for me is a means to an end. I have all the free time I want to do whatever I want. I can live wherever I want and I make 3x the amount I would get paid to do something that I would hate. As far as contributing to society you can use your extra time and money to do that. Go work a real job 40 hours a week for 60k a year and come back and see how you like poker.
Quote:
Quote:
I can't invision too many better jobs.
wow. Some of the culture and content around boker is interesting, but day in-day out we generate no productive output. It's a simple, silly little game. We contribute basically nothing, don't help anyone but ourselves, aid funnelling money to foreign economies...
Leaving the monetary advantage aside, I can't imagine any skilled-labor job, at which I could be self employed, that is worse than poker.
Also, most real jobs don't contribute to society, besides putting your boss's kids through college.
I disagree with this. Most real jobs involve providing products or services to the public that they want and many times need. That is in addition to generating value for any shareholders.
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Gildwulf
BBV4LIFE
Reged: 05/05/05
Posts: 20307
Loc: Blogging
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Quote:
Did I mention how great life has been since I quit playing?
o rly
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dangerfish
addict
Reged: 12/01/05
Posts: 410
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3bb/100 is great but not when it takes 3 hours to play 100 hands.
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jstill
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 05/01/06
Posts: 3641
Loc: downtown portsmouth
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Quote:
3bb/100 is great but not when it takes 3 hours to play 100 hands.
doesnt that depend on the stakes? 3bb/100 would be fine even if u were only playing 30 hands an hour if its like 50/100+
what was this in response to btw
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kiddo
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/02/02
Posts: 2355
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden, Europe
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Quote:
if you guys can get back into your job easily after stopping for a few years then i think your plan is ok.
otherwise I think it's a terrible idea. I'm serious, you won't play more poker because you have more free time. You'll just become lazier overall.
I spent a short time only doing poker, it was awful. i learned I always need another activity (right now its culinary school) to keep balance in my life.
this is my view 2... when i played poker fulltime I didnt feel well when poker run bad and it runs bad pretty often... there are a few that can do it well, but most just get lazy, stop meeting their friends when not drinking, drink 2 much, spend way 2 much money on very unimportant things...
not many wants to be 50yrs old and have kids saying their father works playing poker online... poker is so boring when u play full time because nothing ever ever ever happens that u can talk about with another normal person, so u stop talking to normal persons...
and one very bad thing when u play full time... u think about money all the time because money is the only meassure for ur own success and that is so unhuman and makes u so boring for all others
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DING-DONG YO
Teh mfing DANG-dong
Reged: 02/23/06
Posts: 8122
Loc: ninja modng, bitches, u need 2...
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Quote:
Quote:
Did I mention how great life has been since I quit playing?
o rly
If you're not jealous of the playboy suite, then you ain't got a pulse, mang!
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dangerfish
addict
Reged: 12/01/05
Posts: 410
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It was a response to winning 3bb/100 at the 40-80 game.
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dangerfish
addict
Reged: 12/01/05
Posts: 410
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This is getting to be a joke. Are you serious? Hold'em is dying? I think a lot of you need a reality check. Ask one of your buddies with a normal job how long it would take him to save say 60k in order to buy a house or invest. Most likely you will get an answer in terms of years. I don't plan on playing poker forever but as long as I'm making 1/4 million plus a year I would be stupid not to. Also, you can't dwell on the negatives of playing, if you have become lazy and out of shape and don't do anything to live a well rounded life how is that poker's fault? All you have done is used poker as an excuse to competely let yourself go.
P.S I trade the FX market as a hobby, is that a degenerate job as well? Because I'm certainly not helping anyone there.
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geormiet
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 07/19/04
Posts: 2237
Loc: San Francisco
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Joes was in vegas during the world series. I do not doubt that of all the games that were spread, either limit holdem or no limit holdem were played at the highest level.
To say that it's dying is an overstatement though. I would bet my net worth that no currently existing form of poker will ever surpass holdem in popularity in my lifetime.
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DeathDonkey
runs better than he plays
Reged: 02/24/04
Posts: 6426
Loc: DeucesCracked - Serious Game
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Quote:
I would bet my net worth that no currently existing form of poker will ever surpass holdem in popularity in my lifetime.
Your current net worth? When it comes time to pay (assuming you die first) that won't be worth that much with inflation. Still I'd probably take this bet
-DeathDonkey
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mikeysong
member
Reged: 07/24/06
Posts: 182
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I really like this thread and I have some questions of my own.
I heard back then in the good ol' days 3-4bb/100 was sustainable at limit?
Even though the games are tougher nowadays, there's always money to be made right? Even if we're playing against each other, certain people do better against certain styles, we make mistakes, swap mistakes, and do our best to improve
if someone like schneids were to come down and play 15/30 or 30/60, wouldn't he tear the game up?
or am I assuming wrong?
The point I'm trying to make is, while most of us here aren't playing 1/200+, doesn't that mean there are multiple concepts we are missing out on?? So if there's that much room for improvement/we're making that many 'mistakes'...the games must certainly be beatable, especially compared to the high stakes games?
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DeathDonkey
runs better than he plays
Reged: 02/24/04
Posts: 6426
Loc: DeucesCracked - Serious Game
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Your post is really naive and your assumptions are just way off IMO. People playing higher stakes don't know mystical secrets that are keeping you down, they either ran hot and/or they just play solid, don't tilt much, use good game selection, and have experience and skill at dealing with big LAGs.
Quote:
if someone like schneids were to come down and play 15/30 or 30/60, wouldn't he tear the game up?
People say stuff like this and I think its a huge fallacy. I'll use Schneids as an example since I think he already knows I think he is great. Schneids doesn't know much more about limit hold'em than any other solid winning mid limit player, but he does know about how to beat a 200/400 player, a skill that he needs to have to survive that many of us don't need at all because our opponents don't play like his opponents. I think there are plenty of current 15/30 and 30/60 players that will beat their games for more than Schneids would if he dropped to that level, for the simple reason that they are more familiar with the way those games currently play, as well as what they can assume from a typical unknown opponent at that level. Also the habits he has learned at 200/400 could be somewhat detrimental at lower stakes games - this happens to good high stakes players all the time to different extents.
-DeathDonkey
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Joe Tall
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 04/11/03
Posts: 10220
Loc: Deucescracked - Serious Game
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Quote:
I do not doubt that of all the games that were spread, either limit holdem or no limit holdem were played at the highest level.
The higher games were all mixed. They could barely get a 200/400 LHE going (unlike last year) and when they did, they game was HORRIBLE. Everyone knows how to play Hold'em now a days, the games are getting tougher, and at the same time mix games are growing.
Oh, and don't forget how the bots ate up sites like WPEX. The bots are everywhere.
Edited by Joe Tall (07/13/07 01:00 AM)
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joker122
Attention Whore
Reged: 12/10/03
Posts: 5504
Loc: raising for information again
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"People playing higher stakes don't know mystical secrets ,"
lol keep thinking that, lol.
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mikeysong
member
Reged: 07/24/06
Posts: 182
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well
i've always felt that games til 15/30 are about value betting and play solid poker
I accept that my argument is naive. It isn't until recently that I've started dabbling in the higher stakes games...
I've noticed that at higher games, people will 3bet lighter, really mix up their play etc so that you can't get a solid read.
Like, until 15/30, isn't the game about cards? But after that, the focus is more on image/mental aspects of the game? Attacking weakness, forcing villains to play a weak-tight game, so that they start missing out on value bets etc? That changes the game when you start focusing on something else besides what you're holding and what villains are holding? no?
Sure, villain might cap his draw the first time, but the next time, he could either A) be bluffing horrendously or b) playing his monster strong and getting 1-3bbs worth off you than normal?
include a long session, and this becomes a mental mindf****
I've just recently noticed stranger plays from higher players and i've been thinking about it...
Edited by mikeysong (07/13/07 02:31 AM)
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gaming_mouse
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 10/27/04
Posts: 5584
Loc: I call.
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Quote:
"People playing higher stakes don't know mystical secrets ,"
lol keep thinking that, lol.
why would you say that? DD plays high fairly often I think...
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DeathDonkey
runs better than he plays
Reged: 02/24/04
Posts: 6426
Loc: DeucesCracked - Serious Game
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Mikey, this entire post of yours repeats the same naive thoughts as the last one.
Quote:
i've always felt that games til 15/30 are about value betting and play solid poker
All winning play is about this. I think the trouble you are having is just in your definitions. Solid play for a high stakes player includes understanding what a LAG is 3 betting with preflop and adjusting appropriately, it includes not getting blown off marginal but best hands, it includes making well timed bluffs and semibluffs. These things can all occur at any stakes, the high stakes player just knows a bit better when to make each play. He knows when to value bet Ace high vs a showdown monkey LAG (of which there are plenty at highish stakes). His winning play still revolves around solid poker and value betting, he just does it better than you or someone else not at that level.
Quote:
I've noticed that at higher games, people will 3bet lighter, really mix up their play etc so that you can't get a solid read.
Don't fall into the trap of thinking your opponents have some secret to poker you don't. LAGs are LAGs at any stakes. People 3 betting with 64s vs an MP raise are playing losing poker, they aren't "mixing it up" to screw with you, they are just LAG fish.
Quote:
That changes the game when you start focusing on something else besides what you're holding and what villains are holding?
This is just gibberish to me, what else is there in poker besides making the best play you can depending on what you think the guy has and what you have and what he thinks you have and blah blah. This is just the fundamental theorem of poker restated.
If you really believe all this stuff then stay out of the games, you aren't mentally prepared for tough LAGs screwing with you and you will lose. You need to accept that the fish are generally too loose and call too often at any stakes - they just tend to be more aggressive fish at higher stakes. I've played in live 400/800 games that were looser than any 3/6 game on full tilt right now. Those guys weren't looser because they figured out some special way to play high stakes poker, they were just all loose aggro fish. But if you aren't prepared to deal with them, their wide hand ranges, relentless aggression, and fairly tricky lines, then they can appear tough, but make no mistake, they aren't profitably playing 50% of their hands in a ring game, their just fish who are richer than the fish you are used to.
-DeathDonkey
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mikeysong
member
Reged: 07/24/06
Posts: 182
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so then there's plenty of money to go around at the high stakes too...?
if so, yay thread over
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ILOVEPOKER929
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 04/30/06
Posts: 5114
Loc: Omaha Fish
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I hate this thread. While we're at it why don't we start talking about global warming, environmental destruction, or the potential nuclear holocaust that looms around the corner.
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mjkidd
veteran
Reged: 07/13/06
Posts: 1517
Loc: Supporting Ron Paul!
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Um, you forgot to mention the impending financial crisis that will destroy the dollar and leave us all trying to get games started in soup kitchen lines.
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joker122
Attention Whore
Reged: 12/10/03
Posts: 5504
Loc: raising for information again
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Quote:
Quote:
"People playing higher stakes don't know mystical secrets ,"
lol keep thinking that, lol.
why would you say that? DD plays high fairly often I think...
i was joking obv
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admiralfluff
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 01/03/05
Posts: 1742
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Quote:
Um, you forgot to mention the impending financial crisis that will destroy the dollar and leave us all trying to get games started in soup kitchen lines.
And the number of imminent global epidemics: tuberculosis, malaria, west nile, bird flu, etc.; and the fact that all of the bees in this country are mysteriously dying out. No more honies.  oh noes! the beeeeess!
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Heisenb3rg
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 11/28/05
Posts: 1733
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Quote:
I hate this thread. While we're at it why don't we start talking about global warming, environmental destruction, or the potential nuclear holocaust that looms around the corner.
AHHHHHHH *jumps out the nearest window*
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Surf
Getting Barreled
Reged: 04/28/04
Posts: 5619
Loc: Blogging
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Quote:
Quote:
I hate this thread. While we're at it why don't we start talking about global warming, environmental destruction, or the potential nuclear holocaust that looms around the corner.
AHHHHHHH *jumps out the nearest window*
LOL!
Surf
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gaming_mouse
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 10/27/04
Posts: 5584
Loc: I call.
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Quote:
he fact that all of the bees in this country are mysteriously dying out.
this is incredibly unnerving. seriously.
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Surf
Getting Barreled
Reged: 04/28/04
Posts: 5619
Loc: Blogging
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Quote:
Quote:
he fact that all of the bees in this country are mysteriously dying out.
this is incredibly unnerving. seriously.
I call BS!
2 nights ago a colony of bees decided to take up residence IN my bedroom. They burrowed through the wall during the night and were buzzing merrily around my room, I awoke to the pleasant surprise of one of them sinking its stinger into my arm.
I nuked them. No mercy. F the honey.
Surf
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yourface
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 09/28/04
Posts: 3457
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
"People playing higher stakes don't know mystical secrets ,"
lol keep thinking that, lol.
plz to be teaching the secrets?
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donger
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 04/23/04
Posts: 2531
Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote:
Quote:
Um, you forgot to mention the impending financial crisis that will destroy the dollar and leave us all trying to get games started in soup kitchen lines.
And the number of imminent global epidemics: tuberculosis, malaria, west nile, bird flu, etc.; and the fact that all of the bees in this country are mysteriously dying out. No more honies. oh noes! the beeeeess!
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sweetjazz
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 08/03/03
Posts: 3700
Loc: New Orleans
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Quote:
the fact that all of the bees in this country are mysteriously dying out.
I have to admit that when I was in second grade, my friends and I used to play this game to see who could kill more bees by stepping on them. At the time, our playground was fairly infested with them. I ended up killing close to 100 of them. This is a true story.
Obviously, I had no idea of the devastating ramifications of my activity.
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The DaveR
Ponger
Reged: 01/19/04
Posts: 16743
Loc: IMA CUT U, WTF CANADA
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G, I imagine stud players saying the exact same thing years ago.
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gaming_mouse
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 10/27/04
Posts: 5584
Loc: I call.
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Quote:
i was joking obv
haha my bad
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sethypooh21
idiotplayer
Reged: 08/09/04
Posts: 5757
Loc: World Series GOGOGOGO
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This thread caused me to play 100 hands of NL 100. I'm never getting that 45 minutes of my life back. I did make $14.20 though. Which is nice.
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disjunction
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 11/21/04
Posts: 3352
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Quote:
Quote:
he fact that all of the bees in this country are mysteriously dying out.
this is incredibly unnerving. seriously.
So long, and thanks for all the honey!
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