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NickMPK
Carpal \'Tunnel


Reged: 01/14/06
Posts: 2626
Re: Angelo: Fastrolling [Re: BigBiceps]
      #12788238 - 11/03/07 01:38 AM


I liked the writing style of this article, but it seemed like a very strange choice for an excerpt given the audience of the magazine. Would 2+2 not permit the author to post an actual strategy excerpt or something?


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DynastyModerator
Carpal \'Tunnel


Reged: 09/02/02
Posts: 16088
Loc: Las Vegas
Re: Angelo: Fastrolling [Re: NickMPK]
      #12788518 - 11/03/07 02:08 AM

Quote:


I liked the writing style of this article, but it seemed like a very strange choice for an excerpt given the audience of the magazine. Would 2+2 not permit the author to post an actual strategy excerpt or something?




Tommy chose the excerpt himself. I'm sure I would have accepted any excerpt he provided.


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Matt Flynn
Co-Author of PNL


Reged: 10/02/02
Posts: 3285
Loc: Badugi, USA
Re: Angelo: Fastrolling [Re: Dynasty]
      #12797578 - 11/03/07 09:58 PM

Quote:

Quote:


I liked the writing style of this article, but it seemed like a very strange choice for an excerpt given the audience of the magazine. Would 2+2 not permit the author to post an actual strategy excerpt or something?




Tommy chose the excerpt himself. I'm sure I would have accepted any excerpt he provided.






i've read the manuscript. this element would've been like 77th on my list for excerpts. but it's an interesting choice Tommy made. he values poker etiquette and has strong feelings, as i do, about how good people should act at the table. if you don't care about such things, then he likely would not want to coach you or care about what you think about the book. so i think the choice serves a useful purpose, just not the assumed purpose of trying to sell books to the average 2+2er.


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limon
veteran


Reged: 12/02/02
Posts: 1478
Loc: los angeles
Re: Angelo: Fastrolling [Re: Jim Morgan]
      #12799780 - 11/04/07 01:20 AM

Quote:

I'd like to present an argument for fastrolling. It comes up most in Omaha, but sometimes holdem. If you show your hand your opponent might not realize he has it beat. Maybe he backdoored a flush that he forgot he had. just show that nut straight and let him see it. He might just fold 2 pair or a busted low, not realizing he backed into the flush.

In holdem, the counterfeited kicker hand is probably the most common example. Flop comes AK373. Just flip over AQ, and say "Ace Queen". Don't
say Aces up or anything that is an overt lie. Just draw attention to your queen. Sometimes people forget about the way the K saved their sorry ass A5off suit. After all, they are stupid enough to play that hand, so clearly they could be stupid enough to miread the board at the end. If you don't fastroll, he flips A5 FACE UP and the dealer will (probably) save him from himself.

Is this angle shooting? Maybe, but I'm comfortable with it from an ethics point of view.

Jim Morgan




i always "fastroll"...always. i try to direct the strength of my hands (as noted above) and get players w/ winning or tying hands to fold every now and then. i also play so few hands that its a good chance to bring attention to a holding which is a misrepresentation of my game. i also like to keep the game moving and i am a donks best friend.

from reading this exerpt i get the feeling that im gonna like tommys book, much like i like barry's and doyles portion of the original SS. i cant read poker books that actually discuss the playing of hands too much. i dont know if this bodes well for sales though.


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Dr_Doctr
old hand


Reged: 12/04/06
Posts: 722
Re: Angelo: Fastrolling [Re: limon]
      #12801511 - 11/04/07 07:53 AM

Being taught how to be 'ethical' is not what I or probably most readers of 2+2 magazine read it for, whether they agree or disagree with sentiment of the author. As for the content, why not just make a rule that says both players must show cards immediately at the end of the hand - or that verbal announcements are not allowed and whoever is supposed to show must do so or their hand will be declared dead. This would cut out all the 'ethical' [censored] (read angle-shooting, slowing the game down, mind-games, people being unsure what to do for lack of a rule)

As the rules (or lack of them) stand now, this poster seems correct -

Quote:

I always wait my turn against a verbal announcer, and I tell them to stop slowing the game down when they don't want to turn their cards over, however strong my hand is.





Edited by Dr_Doctr (11/04/07 07:57 AM)


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ALL1N
lobster


Reged: 05/10/03
Posts: 2013
Loc: Melbourne 07
Re: Angelo: Fastrolling [Re: jeffnc]
      #12811439 - 11/04/07 10:02 PM

He didn't address the most important situation of all: when they announce a good hand you can't beat - i.e the angle-shooting situation. Dunno why.

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jeffnc
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 10/18/04
Posts: 1631
Re: Angelo: Fastrolling [Re: jeffnc]
      #12815909 - 11/05/07 09:03 AM

Don't get me wrong - I think the idea behind the article was a good one. I like the idea of addressing some of the metagame issues, and I think I'm not alone in wanting to be a gentleman at the table while still getting all the information and nuances from the game that I can. I just thought that if this topic was going to be discussed, it could have gotten a little deeper/better. I do appreciate him addressing it at all though, it's rare that authors/coaches do.

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Collin Moshman
Author: New 2+2 SNG Book


Reged: 04/01/07
Posts: 227
Loc: Gambling, gambling
Re: Angelo: Fastrolling [Re: Jim Morgan]
      #12839906 - 11/06/07 08:35 PM

This really is an excellent point in favor of fastrolling:

Quote:

I'd like to present an argument for fastrolling. It comes up most in Omaha, but sometimes holdem. If you show your hand your opponent might not realize he has it beat. Maybe he backdoored a flush that he forgot he had. just show that nut straight and let him see it. He might just fold 2 pair or a busted low, not realizing he backed into the flush.

In holdem, the counterfeited kicker hand is probably the most common example. Flop comes AK373. Just flip over AQ, and say "Ace Queen". Don't
say Aces up or anything that is an overt lie. Just draw attention to your queen. Sometimes people forget about the way the K saved their sorry ass A5off suit. After all, they are stupid enough to play that hand, so clearly they could be stupid enough to miread the board at the end. If you don't fastroll, he flips A5 FACE UP and the dealer will (probably) save him from himself.




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Sparks
enthusiast


Reged: 11/10/03
Posts: 273
Loc: Los Angeles
Re: Angelo: Fastrolling [Re: jeffnc]
      #12852210 - 11/07/07 04:29 PM

2+2'ers love to pile on. It seems to be their nature.

I noticed as one, then another, then another commented on how Tommy's article was weak. It seems that when someone first comments on an article, others have a tendency to follow suit, I suspect because they are afraid of "not belonging" or something. It is yet another case on 2+2 of The Emperor's New Clothes.

Tommy, ignore the idiots on here. Your article nailed it. Your writing style is a pleasure to read, and the content is obviously from someone who has played a lot of cards -- and gets it. Nice job, can't wait to get your book. I hope the entire manuscript is a lot like this excerpt you provided.


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Pov
old hand


Reged: 11/01/04
Posts: 1026
Re: Angelo: Fastrolling [Re: ALL1N]
      #12855172 - 11/07/07 07:40 PM

Quote:

He didn't address the most important situation of all: when they announce a good hand you can't beat - i.e the angle-shooting situation. Dunno why.




Actually he does. In this case he would wait to see the hand. Fastrolling as described in the article refers to when he turns over his, not when he mucks.


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