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Limit Texas Hold'em >> Small Stakes Shorthanded

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yourface
Carpal \'Tunnel


Reged: 09/28/04
Posts: 3457
Loc: Canada
donked into on top pairing river with BP
      #13204741 - 12/01/07 06:40 PM

villain is a LAG. he runs 50/30/2 avg 4.6 players, 60% atsb 46% wtsd over 800 hands

I've seen him overplay weak hands before but he seemed reasonable this session.

Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $10/$20
3 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (3 players) yourface is BB with 5 J
Button folds, SB raises, yourface calls.

Flop: 5 7 Q (3SB, 2 players)
SB bets, yourface raises, SB calls.

Turn: 9 (3.5BB, 2 players)
SB checks, yourface bets, SB calls.

River: Q (5.5BB, 2 players)
SB bets,


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istewart
Carpal \'Tunnel


Reged: 12/24/04
Posts: 8990
Re: donked into on top pairing river with BP [Re: yourface]
      #13204769 - 12/01/07 06:42 PM

Er, do you want to raise?

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yourface
Carpal \'Tunnel


Reged: 09/28/04
Posts: 3457
Loc: Canada
Re: donked into on top pairing river with BP [Re: istewart]
      #13204787 - 12/01/07 06:43 PM

fold is best imo. curious what others think

I think raising is probably better than calling though. he can't have a Q here

Edited by yourface (12/01/07 06:44 PM)


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NinaWilliams
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 08/13/05
Posts: 2008
Loc: Broken-hearted, Battle-scarred
Re: donked into on top pairing river with BP [Re: yourface]
      #13204809 - 12/01/07 06:45 PM

Quote:

fold is best imo. curious what others think




Fold is best. Every draw got there on the turn and he'd have to be retarded to play an A like this. I'd also just call down from the flop.


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sethypooh21
idiotplayer


Reged: 08/09/04
Posts: 5757
Loc: World Series GOGOGOGO
Re: donked into on top pairing river with BP [Re: NinaWilliams]
      #13204953 - 12/01/07 06:58 PM

Quote:

Quote:

fold is best imo. curious what others think




Fold is best. Every draw got there on the turn and he'd have to be retarded to play an A like this. I'd also just call down from the flop.




Yeah, this is a bad spot to get aggro with a very weak made hand.


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yourface
Carpal \'Tunnel


Reged: 09/28/04
Posts: 3457
Loc: Canada
Re: donked into on top pairing river with BP [Re: NinaWilliams]
      #13204983 - 12/01/07 07:00 PM

I call the flop more often than not vs LAGs and let them barrel off

my reason for raising was that villain sat down recently and I wanted to establish that I am raising a wide range of made hands. I felt this would give more credibility to my flop raises which would let me pick up pots with bluff and semibluffs


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thepizzlefosho
old hand


Reged: 03/27/07
Posts: 895
Loc: not winning at SD
Re: donked into on top pairing river with BP [Re: NinaWilliams]
      #13204987 - 12/01/07 07:01 PM

that he c/c a 7 or 9 on the flop and then decided to bet the river?

I don't know his play looks fishy to me and I think I look him up. I guess folding is best but I'm a SD monkey and I don't like folding to LAG donks on river cards that obviously didn't hit their hands. I also probably don't raise the flop and just call down barring really bad turns or rivers.


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yourface
Carpal \'Tunnel


Reged: 09/28/04
Posts: 3457
Loc: Canada
Re: donked into on top pairing river with BP [Re: thepizzlefosho]
      #13205085 - 12/01/07 07:08 PM

villain is a competent player, so what range of hands can we put him on that get to the river on this board?

he can have 7x, 5x, some 9x, small PPs, turned overcard+straight draw, turned FD

it should be pretty obvious that I have a hand here. the turn improved most semibluffing hands. I don't think that he would bluff into a probable made hand in these aggressive shorthanded games where everyone shows down super light

with the Q pairing he has to like his weaker pairs more


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thepizzlefosho
old hand


Reged: 03/27/07
Posts: 895
Loc: not winning at SD
Re: donked into on top pairing river with BP [Re: yourface]
      #13205177 - 12/01/07 07:15 PM

Quote:

villain is a competent player, so what range of hands can we put him on that get to the river on this board?

he can have 7x, 5x, some 9x, small PPs, turned overcard+straight draw, turned FD

it should be pretty obvious that I have a hand here. the turn improved most semibluffing hands. I don't think that he would bluff into a probable made hand in these aggressive shorthanded games where everyone shows down super light

with the Q pairing he has to like his weaker pairs more




yeah i agree, I think folding is best if he really isn't competent and won't be running a stupid bluff against me. Just last night on an AP 5/10 table I had a dumb LAG b/c with AT on a J652J board (J paired on the river I raised with 77). However the difference is I wouldn't call the guy in my hand necessarily competent. In such a small pot you probably should fold, I just hate folding to weird plays from LAGs in BvB.


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sethypooh21
idiotplayer


Reged: 08/09/04
Posts: 5757
Loc: World Series GOGOGOGO
Re: donked into on top pairing river with BP [Re: yourface]
      #13205509 - 12/01/07 07:53 PM

Quote:



my reason for raising was that villain sat down recently and I wanted to establish that I am raising a wide range of made hands. I felt this would give more credibility to my flop raises which would let me pick up pots with bluff and semibluffs




As we discussed earlier, I don't think bottom pair/crap kicker is a hand that will give our raises 'credibility' - in fact it is likely to do the exact opposite.


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milesdyson
Bet, Raise, Pray


Reged: 07/03/04
Posts: 14916
Loc: trying to 363 u
Re: donked into on top pairing river with BP [Re: thepizzlefosho]
      #13205522 - 12/01/07 07:55 PM

YOURFACE

I tried making a video today. but i played it back and

1. the sound was quiet (this i can fix by adjusting line in volume)
2. the sound is choppy
3. the sound is not playing at the correct time, which gets worse as the video gets longer





can you just give your CamStudio settings??????????????????????


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sethypooh21
idiotplayer


Reged: 08/09/04
Posts: 5757
Loc: World Series GOGOGOGO
Re: donked into on top pairing river with BP [Re: milesdyson]
      #13205556 - 12/01/07 07:58 PM

Quote:

YOURFACE

I tried making a video today. but i played it back and

1. the sound was quiet (this i can fix by adjusting line in volume)
2. the sound is choppy
3. the sound is not playing at the correct time, which gets worse as the video gets longer





can you just give your CamStudio settings??????????????????????






QFMiles Dyson


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milesdyson
Bet, Raise, Pray


Reged: 07/03/04
Posts: 14916
Loc: trying to 363 u
Re: donked into on top pairing river with BP [Re: sethypooh21]
      #13205605 - 12/01/07 08:01 PM

i played two tables

table 1 i was up 30 bb. i clicked to see my hud stats

"im running 22/17 over here, pansy tag status."

then i go click the other one where i'm down 15 bb.

"well, runnin 36/30 over here, losing everything. i think oink is wrong"

HELP


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thepizzlefosho
old hand


Reged: 03/27/07
Posts: 895
Loc: not winning at SD
Re: donked into on top pairing river with BP [Re: milesdyson]
      #13206864 - 12/01/07 10:00 PM

Quote:

i played two tables

table 1 i was up 30 bb. i clicked to see my hud stats

"im running 22/17 over here, pansy tag status."

then i go click the other one where i'm down 15 bb.

"well, runnin 36/30 over here, losing everything. i think oink is wrong"

HELP




eh I won 90BB today playing 39/32 over 350 hands (ATSB of 56) so Oink was right. my sample size gives a lot of weight to my argument. imo.


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MacGuyV
Carpal \'Tunnel


Reged: 01/19/05
Posts: 10100
Loc: old school
Re: donked into on top pairing river with BP [Re: yourface]
      #13207035 - 12/01/07 10:10 PM

You guys are all liars; nobody folds here.

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Oink
Waffles


Reged: 03/24/06
Posts: 4226
Loc: SLAAAYYYERRRR ! ! ! !
Re: donked into on top pairing river with BP [Re: MacGuyV]
      #13207252 - 12/01/07 10:26 PM

Quote:

You guys are all liars; nobody folds here.




ya...


Quote:

YOURFACE

I tried making a video today. but i played it back and

1. the sound was quiet (this i can fix by adjusting line in volume)
2. the sound is choppy
3. the sound is not playing at the correct time, which gets worse as the video gets longer





can you just give your CamStudio settings??????????????????????






I suck at IT cuz I am old. But feel free to PM or IM me.

Quote:

then i go click the other one where i'm down 15 bb.

"well, runnin 36/30 over here, losing everything. i think oink is wrong"

HELP





I thought we went over this a few times

rule #1. Oink is right

rule #2. When in doubt go to rule # 1. If you forgot rule #1 just call


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yourface
Carpal \'Tunnel


Reged: 09/28/04
Posts: 3457
Loc: Canada
Re: donked into on top pairing river with BP [Re: Oink]
      #13207297 - 12/01/07 10:30 PM

BACK ON TOPIC PPL camon

no of course I did not fold here because I am a good SD monkey, but I really do think it is a fold vs a reasonable player


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thepizzlefosho
old hand


Reged: 03/27/07
Posts: 895
Loc: not winning at SD
Re: donked into on top pairing river with BP [Re: yourface]
      #13207382 - 12/01/07 10:35 PM

Quote:

BACK ON TOPIC PPL camon

no of course I did not fold here because I am a good SD monkey, but I really do think it is a fold vs a reasonable player




the problem is that most of us just see 50/30 and say unreasonable player. But as we all know you can play way too LAG pf and still play well post. I guess if I had 60 hands on this guy I would call. If I had a ton of hands and didn't see him getting out of line often than folding is the best play, but like you I probably don't do it at the table. However, if I have ever folded to his river donks before in this session I think you have to call here.


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vmacosta
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 07/16/04
Posts: 2060
Loc: Bay Area
Re: donked into on top pairing river with BP [Re: yourface]
      #13207412 - 12/01/07 10:37 PM

raising is terrible unless your image is extra nitty, imo. It is very rare that a decent lag will give up on a pair when he's taken a somewhat suspicous line.

I have never folded a pair in this spot, mostly bc I sometimes donk a busted draw or mediocre ace when I'm in villain's spot and assume many decent players do as well. I muck weak A-hi or worse here usually.


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vmacosta
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 07/16/04
Posts: 2060
Loc: Bay Area
Re: donked into on top pairing river with BP [Re: thepizzlefosho]
      #13207597 - 12/01/07 10:48 PM

Quote:

Quote:

BACK ON TOPIC PPL camon

no of course I did not fold here because I am a good SD monkey, but I really do think it is a fold vs a reasonable player




the problem is that most of us just see 50/30 and say unreasonable player.




pizzle,
I am 40/30 when filtered for 3-5 players (AP=4.7). Not much of a stretch to imagine somebody decent could VPIP another 10%, particularly if they coolcall a lot of stuff that's close from SB (A2s, K9o, Q8s, JTo, T8s, etc).


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thepizzlefosho
old hand


Reged: 03/27/07
Posts: 895
Loc: not winning at SD
Re: donked into on top pairing river with BP [Re: vmacosta]
      #13207730 - 12/01/07 10:56 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

BACK ON TOPIC PPL camon

no of course I did not fold here because I am a good SD monkey, but I really do think it is a fold vs a reasonable player




the problem is that most of us just see 50/30 and say unreasonable player.




pizzle,
I am 40/30 when filtered for 3-5 players (AP=4.7). Not much of a stretch to imagine somebody decent could VPIP another 10%, particularly if they coolcall a lot of stuff that's close from SB (A2s, K9o, Q8s, JTo, T8s, etc).




oh I totally agree. My point is that most people that see OP and make a response are used to 6max stats, and even at 5max see 50/30 and think oh this guy is unreasonable postflop. It is a somewhat snap reaction that probably tilts the view point on our assessment of a villains play at the table.

I think folding here is ok if this is the first time you have done so, and this player is entirely reasonable. If you have folded to donks before to this player, or you have seen them get out of line you really need to call.

and as many of us have said several times I wouldn't raise the flop.


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waffle
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 07/27/04
Posts: 2231
Re: donked into on top pairing river with BP [Re: thepizzlefosho]
      #13209038 - 12/02/07 12:12 AM

Grunching.. I fold here. As long as your are raising your good hands on this flop I see no harm in folding this river.

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vmacosta
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 07/16/04
Posts: 2060
Loc: Bay Area
Re: donked into on top pairing river with BP [Re: vmacosta]
      #13209593 - 12/02/07 12:44 AM

Quote:

raising is terrible unless your image is extra nitty, imo. It is very rare that a decent lag will give up on a pair when he's taken a somewhat suspicous line.

I have never folded a pair in this spot, mostly bc I sometimes donk a busted draw or mediocre ace when I'm in villain's spot and assume many decent players do as well. I muck weak A-hi or worse here usually.




err,misread hand, will reconsider later


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inferno
IRC travolta


Reged: 03/24/05
Posts: 3402
Re: donked into on top pairing river with BP [Re: vmacosta]
      #13212107 - 12/02/07 04:01 AM

I easiliy fold here but if villian has bet river: 100 I might call

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Heisenb3rg
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 11/28/05
Posts: 1733
Re: donked into on top pairing river with BP [Re: vmacosta]
      #13212186 - 12/02/07 04:05 AM

rofl @ folding pairs

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